TheDarkDesperado

Sorry for the vague title but something I noticed in Oathbringer was comments by the Stormfather regarding changes to Honor, I will check again to get more specifics but wanted to start the conversation first, but he started to act oddly as time went on. Honor began to care only for the letter of oaths and not the spirit and what he said to the Knights Radiance that helped cause the Recreance doesn't sound like what we've seen in visions and discussion from the Stormfather. My question is simply "why?" Influence from the collective actions and perceptions of humans? Another shard? Some grand plan that requires him to act quite odd or otherwise cripple himself before his death? Hoid? Or was this a byproduct of him being in the process of dying? If so, how was he killed only now? (The corruption of the Oathpact would be my best bet) Let me know what you think and tell me if I'm an idiot and it was spelled out in Oathbringer but I'm not finding anything. Page 1052 has some stuff with the Stormfather that planted the seed of this question.

Overall really enjoyed the read, some threads I felt weren't closed perfectly but that will always happen, overall thought a lot were done well and some might not be so closed, lack of GB action disappointied me a bit but we have time enough in the series for that, on a personal note I thought Kaladin not saying the 4th oath was a fantastic touch and will make him eventually saying it all the sweeter, the time with Bridge 4 was also appreciated. I also think it speaks to how much we love the world and characters that there was still so much more we wanted despite the monstrous size of the book.

I agree with most of these but one I'm really interested in is Elhokar wanting to take back Kholinar with Kaladin, really think that will be interesting not only for Kaladin's story for this book but also because Elhokar has been trying so hard to be a good king so he might get a genuine moment of victory... plus his developing hero worship of Kaladin is gold.

Well said. When she has begins seeing herself as just another mask proofing she's fine becomes an uphill battle.

Beautiful... beautiful, you brought a tear to my eye friend. Rep for you.

Gonna have to disagree, it's been hinted that the secret to what caused the Recreance could be revealed to break the Radiants again (don't have the exact quote but I believe it's one of the diagram quotes) and I doubt that would be it, and I'm fairly sure the Recreance happened after the Last Desolation which would have been the last time they'd need to use the duel plan so unless the wager had a delay attached to it that seems highly unlikely. Most importantly the point of the duel is to be what ends the war, if Odium won it then the war wouldn't end and if the Knights Radiant were supposed to disband if their champion lost then the Last Desolation would have played out very differently. So for those reasons and more I can't agree with this theory in the slightest.

Perhaps like the Oathgates whatever mechanism doesn't just need Stormlight, but to be activated perhaps at a central location nearer towards the bottom perhaps requiring a Radiant of higher status/level than our heroes currently are. Such a mechanism would be useful if they ever abandoned Urithiru, wouldn't want just anybody to be able to use whatever it is.

I think if there's a connection then it's that the feelings leading to the impulse murders are the trigger for whatever this is, if it were the other way around I would, personally, expect more instances.

Since we still don't have much to go on I'm gonna go with my gut and guess she is loyal to T (he does have great PR) likely due to them taking advantage of the fact that as a young KR she's probably somewhat emotionally vulnerable so it would be child's play to get her to help them to Urithiru. I also think a reason for her not to be fully inducted into the DIagram is that they may not want any Surgebinders too close after the near miss with Szeth (and that was when they had his Oathstone) so they'd have to be damnation damnation sure before bringing a dangerous element too far in. Plus as previously stated, she is so suspicious I would never let her into my secret organization.

Agreed. I have to disagree, I don't think we should doubt Syl's judgement based on a single, vague conversation. Plus, if it is a Voidspern, we can't assume it would be upfront with it's nature or even necessarily hateful. If we assume that it should be outright hateful immediately we assume that the Voidspern share a far too similar personality, the KR spren we have seen thus far have varied quite a bit and not all have been exactly what their first impressions would have one believe so it's safe to assume the Voidspern would have some variety and personality.

Silly thought, am I the only one who wants to see Syl react to that like a jealous girlfriend? I can't be the only one who finds that mental image hilarious.

Personally I don't think we should assume Voidspern follow all of the same rules of other spern, they likely do but considering how different the Parshmen have been from what was expected I don't think it's safe to assume anything.

Don't have much to add here, good theory not sure I buy it completely but I agree with a lot of it. Also high marks for the thoroughness of it.

My bet is on Mraize posing as some adviser of some sort (under an assumed name... or another assumed name, I'll eat my hat if Mraize is their real name), probably looking for some information or leverage, a Princedom without it's Prince is the perfect place to grab information, power, and resources before disappearing into the shadows. Ialai will probably accuse Adolin of the murder directly or indirectly, possibly using Mraize as witness or investigator or the like. for Mraize it's probably just part of a longer job.

This is a very complex problem, one the one hand modern Humans can't be blamed for taking their minds/souls (Whether it was the humans who did it or not) which is the greater evil than the slavery but it's hard to see the Parshmen as anything but victims, can't exactly ask them to go back to the people who stripped away their freewill, while the Parshmen are in a position of weakness, and make friends; that's not something you get over for the sake of pragmatism. Logic may say that but logic isn't much of a comfort in something like this.

I disagree, as stated in my previous post it seems that her intent would likely make her passive and more likely to fight indirectly or otherwise Invested in Roshar enough to make the power difference negligible at best.

That's a good point, no matter what reason Urithiru was abandoned you would think there would be more trace of previous inhabitants, you don't normally abandon a whole city and clean the place up before you go.

The intervention of another Shard irrevocably changing the balance of power in the system. My theory is rooted in the knowledge that Odium is diminished somewhat making him weaker than other Shards, though he would be safe from Cultivation as her intent likely keeps her more passive another Shard would be able to defeat him. So that gives me 3 main variants of this idea, A) Odium is shattered and/or absorbed by another Shard between books 5 and 6 creating a new antagonist and changing the game entirely B.) Odium finally absorbs another Shard, prizing his survival over his purity, making the Champion plan likely unusable and likely necessitating intervention from outside forces C) Another Shard arrives in Roshar but doesn't immediately shatter and/or absorb Odium, likely being hostile to the native humans this could force a 3 way conflict and/or intervention from outside forces All of these are also founded on the idea of needed a significant status quo shift for the second arc and the Desolation of the first arc being over by then, it would also be likely that Hoid might try to engineer one of the above scenarios given his opposition to Odium and all could result in the destruction of life on Roshar which he's stated wouldn't deter him from his goal. I admit this is all a bit vague and wild but let me know what you think and if you agree which scenario is most likely or the one you would most like to see. edit: also please be forgiving of this topic, I haven't started one in a long time if ever.

That and I believe Cultivation's intent would keep her relatively passive if she were to oppose him, along with Honor being shattered of course. His only fear would likely be of another Shard but otherwise the Stormfather seems confident Odium can continue indefinitely with no threat from Roshar thus the champion duel being the only way to win. This could play in to something more if another Shard comes by between the first and last 5 books thus creating a new antagonist or if Odium becomes more powerful (possibly from being forced by circumstances to finally take up another Shard) again likely between the first and last 5 books thus upping the threat and requiring a new plan. Might expound on this idea in another topic but I think it's relevant here as either scenario could come up in some form in the first 5 books.

Yeah I'm going some sort of Odium thing, what this also means is that if Shallan can convince others of this then they'll start investigating Sadeas's death separately which could mean trouble but that's a different story. If it is an Odium thing my idea is perhaps some weakened form of an Unmade since the one's heard of seem to have farther reaching effects, I will revise this if the effect is discovered to be much larger.

Yeah, was a bit on the fence about this but at this point Shallan is diving headfirst into dangerous and unhealthy coping mechanisms. I have some personal experience with unhealthy coping mechanisms, the longer it goes the harder it is to break and the more the deeper problem(s) will fester. She needs help big time.

Interesting thought, if you're right then hopefully they can be saved rather than becoming slaves of Odium. Poor Parshmen have gotten the short end of the stick for a while (read: forever)

Agreed, even though he was completely wrong about their reaction it's hard to buy him doing that for a front. A possible reason he might have suspected Restares of the assassination despite being on the same team was that probably wasn't supposed to give The Parshendi the orb and/or tell them about the plan, I find it likely as that seems a huge gamble to take. I think he was genuine but the way he went about it raises some questions.

Not much for me to add here, I find the idea of Adolin doing it under influence to be plausible but something makes me hesitate, the Ghostbloods would be my best bet, we know they're in Urithiru and while we don't yet have a motive it's possible that the victim was a part of a rival secret faction like the Sons of Honor. Although if it is them then copying a high profile murder seems risky, it could draw too much attention although it could make it harder to solve since much time will likely be spent trying to find a link. I expect the next batch of chapters will give us something more to go off of.

Why did Leras cross the road? It's a mist-ery. Why does Ati not get invited to parties? Because he always Ruins them.