The Official Thread of Relationships

[Claincy he/him]

Heh, we can hear subtext (generally). The trouble with subtext comes less in recognising it's existence and more in correctly interpreting it

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

We men are simple, fickle things. We have yet to understand female subtext o.o

[Delightful]

17 minutes ago, ParadoxSpren said:

We men are simple, fickle things. We have yet to understand female subtext o.o

I...I'm not sure fickle has anything tk do with it. 

I seriously once had a conversation with my friend that went something like:

me: so are we doing x or y

friend: I don't know do you want to do x?

me: I dont mind

my brother: at this rate youll never decide. 

Me: *rolls eyes*  we're doing x

Our tone/body language/subtext: tell me now if you hate the idea and we'll go do something else. 

Its like....friendly non-verbal negotiation. But more social and less super serious. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Delightful

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Well, I am simple anyways haha I'm happy doing anything unless there's something else I really wanna do, and I will say so, likewise if if I really didn't want to do something. Most of the time I'm none too fussed. Therein lies the problem, as that attitude is worn by so many o.O

[Claincy he/him]

I've got nothing against subtext in general, it's a standard part of interpersonal interaction  It's always possible for it to be misinterpreted though so if something's particularly important I think it should be stated clearly.

[Delightful]

26 minutes ago, Claincy said:

I've got nothing against subtext in general, it's a standard part of interpersonal interaction  It's always possible for it to be misinterpreted though so if something's particularly important I think it should be stated clearly.

I just wonder if something is so normal to a woman to be communicated via subtext that they don't realise that they're not being clear enough. 

That's happened with my brother and I a couple times, but that could be just random miscommunication, it's hardly enough to notice a pattern.

It's a thought, anyway.

And like I said before, I'm not overly fond of "guys do x girls do y". But anyway.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Delightful

[Left he/him]

Ahhhhh.....Subtext..... I don't enjoy it. In order to hang out with my best-best friend you really have to have a masters degree in subtext. I've been getting better at it, but it's definitely hard.

[Pestis the Spider she/her]

Subtext can be a real pain sometimes. I generally don't do subtext and I also don't recognise subtext (unless it's blatantly obvious). Maybe I'm a weird girl then. But guys also use subtext. Maybe not as much as girls, maybe in different ways than girls (I don't know), but they definitely do. What is more I had several situations when I stated something clearly, but I still ended up being misunderstood, because the other person was looking for a subtext that wasn't there. 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Pestis the Spider

[Delightful]

But I don't think subtext is usually "I am trying to communicate something telepathy why aren't you getting it", it's more like 

trying to work out if someone really doesn't want to do something but is saying yes because they feel they have to

or, they don't want to go out and you think it's because they don't want to run into someone in particular, and say you know that person is out of town so problem solved 

Or theyre saying or feeling a particular way because of something that's happened and what they're saying isn't the actual problem 

or they don't want to say something outright for fear of getting laughed at or it's embarrassing or scary or just plain not so socially acceptable, so they say it in a way they can back out and pretend that's not what they meant if you take it badly.

i think what I'm trying to say is that subtext just happens because people are complex and society and expectations and emotions are complex and sometimes all the everything someone is experiencing and trying to express doesn't always come across so clearly as "pass the coke". 

[Pestis the Spider she/her]

Oh, I agree. I mean, subtext does exist for a reason. It is useful. Well, at least to some people. The only problem is that different people might have different ability in communicating via subtext, which may lead to misunderstandings. However, just as subtext, saying stuff bluntly is also not easy, and basically may lead to offending everone. 

I don't see subtext. For me it's mostly telepathy. I'm not saying I've never tried it myself, I am only saying that I am terrible at subtext, and my telepathy skill is at level 0. But I am me. For other people subtext might be an extremely useful tool. I guess I just want to say that we are all different.

 

[Zathoth]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiio's_laws

Very relevant to the conversation.

[Silverblade5 he/him]

@Pestis the Spider

Same problem. Leads me to constantly being blatantly obvious with everyone I talk to. I still say subtext should be offered as a foreign language

[Claincy he/him]

2 hours ago, Delightful said:

But I don't think subtext is usually "I am trying to communicate something telepathy why aren't you getting it", it's more like 

...

i think what I'm trying to say is that subtext just happens because people are complex and society and expectations and emotions are complex and sometimes all the everything someone is experiencing and trying to express doesn't always come across so clearly as "pass the coke". 

I agree with all of this

I think in general women tend to use subtext a little more than men, but people of both genders definitely use it and I suspect a lot of the difference in how much we use it and the manner in which we use it may be due to the differences in how our culture views men and women. Being brought up with different expectations (some of them stupid and harmful) will naturally have an effect on how we communicate. I think we can run into the exact same problems when communicating with people from different cultures and with different upbringings.

4 hours ago, Delightful said:

I just wonder if something is so normal to a woman to be communicated via subtext that they don't realise that they're not being clear enough. 

I'm certain this does happen. I also think you could substitute just about any significant upbringing or culture difference into that phrase and it would still be accurate, at least to some extent.

Personally I'm not particularly great at subtext. I think I can generally recognise it's presence but if I start thinking about it I very easily end up over-analysing, social anxiety kicks in and pretty quickly I can end up guessing they meant one of a few worst case scenarios and missing what the subtext actually was When it comes to using subtext myself, well, I spent an unfortunately long period of time suppressing my own reactions and emotions (yay for bullying etc. ) and as a result I don't tend to emote very strongly unless I'm really relaxed or actively thinking about doing so.

[Oversleep]

I'm still trying to figure out how the conversation shifted from women trying to change their men to better suit their expectations to women using subtext without anyone realizing there was a shift.

These things are not the same.

[Elenion he/him]

I can detect subtext but have a hard time incorporating it correctly; I tend to get anxious and expect the worst possible scenario. I use an alternative where me and someone else agree on a code word. For example, my brother knows that when I say the number "21" that means that he's being a third wheel and needs to leave. I keep them vague enough to be slipped into basically any conversation.

[Pestis the Spider she/her]

@Oversleep I think everyone realized there was a shift. 

But I would gladly discuss how men try to change women to suit their expectations. Because that also happens, and god it is annoying.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Pestis the Spider

[Quiver he/him]

Speaking of changing for relationships...

Does anyone have any advice on how to be less neurotic? I, um...imagine it's not an attractive trait.

[Orlion Blight he/him]

50 minutes ago, Quiver said:

Speaking of changing for relationships...

Does anyone have any advice on how to be less neurotic? I, um...imagine it's not an attractive trait.

Pot.

Spoiler

Buy a big pot and immerse yourself in the Art of the Stew!

 

[Guest]

On 6/20/2016 at 1:28 PM, Delightful said:

I can guarantee that she burps and uses the bathroom and tells really bad jokes sometimes. 

i have yet to meet a girl that cries rainbows and sneezes butterflies.

I MET ONE. You clearly need to check out the new Snapchat filters.

[Delightful]

6 hours ago, Claincy said:

Personally I'm not particularly great at subtext. I think I can generally recognise it's presence but if I start thinking about it I very easily end up over-analysing, social anxiety kicks in and pretty quickly I can end up guessing they meant one of a few worst case scenarios and missing what the subtext actually was When it comes to using subtext myself, well, I spent an unfortunately long period of time suppressing my own reactions and emotions (yay for bullying etc. ) and as a result I don't tend to emote very strongly unless I'm really relaxed or actively thinking about doing so.

Um yeah. The problem with trying to read minds is that you can get it all wrong and social anxiety for everyone! But hopefully you're hanging out with friends and you can then be open about what you thought and laugh off the mistake. 

3 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I'm still trying to figure out how the conversation shifted from women trying to change their men to better suit their expectations to women using subtext without anyone realizing there was a shift.

These things are not the same.

It went 

women try to subtly change men by not communicating openly ---- maybe women think they're communicating openly and the men aren't reading the signals, no deviousness involved ----- general conversation about non-verbal communication. 

and qualifier: trying to change people is not usually a good idea. 

2 hours ago, Quiver said:

Speaking of changing for relationships...

Does anyone have any advice on how to be less neurotic? I, um...imagine it's not an attractive trait.

Take a deep breath and trust yourself one scary interaction at a time . See that the world doesn't burn down each time. Take another deep breath. Do it again. Build confidence

also maybe see a dr and check it's not a medical brain chemical problem. 

 

1 hour ago, Kipper said:

I MET ONE. You clearly need to check out the new Snapchat filters.

........

....

THAT DOESNT COUNT.

........

...

 

[ThirdGen]

9 hours ago, Quiver said:

Speaking of changing for relationships...

Does anyone have any advice on how to be less neurotic? I, um...imagine it's not an attractive trait.

Maybe not to people with low Neuroticism, but people with mid-to-high Neuroticism recognize their own.

[skaa he/him]

Hello fellow Sharders. It's been a while since I've been here. I'm currently in need of advice. I already talked to my real life friends about it, but I'm hoping you guys could chime in as well.

First, let me describe my history with relationships so far: Nada, zilch, zip. I have never had a girlfriend. Not for the lack of trying, though. Starting from high school, I've been rejected a total of nine times already. (I'm thirty years old now.) I have dated several times, but all of those led basically nowhere.

Anyway, I've had a crush on a coworker for five years now, but I never made any move until recently because I've always seen her as way over my league. We were friends, but not very close friends, and she never showed any clear signs of being interested in me.

A couple of months ago, I saw her sitting alone on a couch in the office lobby. We chatted for a while, then I suddenly made a terrible mistake: I asked her out for coffee. She declined, not too surprisingly, and I awkwardly excused myself and left. I really should have accepted defeat and moved on, but I didn't. Somehow, five years' worth of repressed desire surged through my soul like the Dor through a previously incomplete Elantrian, and I began to sort of obsess about the girl. No, I did NOT start touching her inappropriately or anything rapey like that, but I admit I did become a bit of a creep, stalking her on social networking sites and ogling at her every chance I get. It was pathetic.

One day she caught me staring at her legs while we and a group of coworkers were relaxing after work. She never said anything, but by the way she immediately covered herself and left soon afterwards, I was pretty sure I was in trouble. That night I sent her a Facebook message asking for forgiveness. Facebook Messenger indicated she read it, but she never replied. After that she started avoiding me in the office. For a while I played her game of not acknowledging each other's existence, but I desperately wanted her to not be mad at me any longer, so I attempted several things:

• I tried talking to her in person about what happened. She held out her hand in the universal gesture for "Talk to the hand" and walked away.
• I sent her a couple more apologetic messages on Facebook. She apparently never even read them (according to the indicator icon on Messenger).
• I spent a week creating a hexahexaflexagon containing pictures of her, and gave it as a peace offering. She did not accept it.
• I gave her a hand-written note asking if we could be friends again. I got a note in return asking me to please stop.

At that point, I asked my closest real life friends for advice. Most of them said I should just wait for her anger to die down. One even convinced me to unfriend the girl on social networking sites so that I could move on. I kind of regret following that advice (yes, I unfriended/unfollowed her on Facebook, Instagram, Google+, and Swarm), but it's too late now.

I get that what I did was wrong, that it was technically sexual harassment, but I don't understand why she would not accept my apology, and why she won't even hear me out. We've known each other for five years, and aside from the recent and very temporary spike in my outward perversion level, I have always treated her with the utmost respect. You would think that this slight aberration in my behavior was something that could be resolved via civil discussion (you know, the old "Let's just be friends" talk), but it seems that, to her, it was not.

I can't believe I am actually hoping for a "Let's just be friends" talk with a girl I like. I mean, how crazy is that?

We're going to have a company party tomorrow. Would it be a terrible idea for me to approach her there and try to apologize again? Or should I just continue my current policy of pretending I don't notice when she's in the immediate vicinity (when in fact I always acutely notice it)?

Edited July 21, 2016 by skaa

[Mestiv he/him]

I think you should pretend she's not there. She gave clean signs that you made her feel uncomfortable and then you creeped her out with trying so hard to apologise. It would probably went better if you didn't try so hard to apologize, but what's done is done. 

What's the age difference between you? 

Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to go back to previous relations. She knows you're attracted to her and it seems she doesn't like it. I'm sorry but I really think you should let her be.

Have you tried your luck with dating sites? They may sound lame, but they're a good way to find someone you'll like and that will like you back. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Mestiv

[Delightful]

@skaa It sounds like you've completely lost her trust.

1. She told you no to a date and you have not accepted this as a no.

2.You then made her feel unsafe by ogling her, I bet that one time at the meeting was not the first time she noticed. 

3. She non-verbally told you to leave her alone but you didn't stop.

4. She asked you to stop sending notes and yet you are still trying to apologise when she has clearly told you to back off multiple times.

Skaa, this is when 'no means no'. This isn't a slight abberation of good behaviour, this is intense creepiness that sends out literally all the red flags of 'here is a guy who does not respect your boundaries, he is not respecting them now and he will not respect them in the future RUN FOR THE HILLS'.

She wants you to leave her alone. So leave her alone. She gets you're trying to apologise but you're still doing all the wrong things and I bet you're scaring her, probably badly. At the very best you're being an intense nuisance.

Leave her alone. Try avoid her. Don't talk to her if you can help it. Remember that she doesn't owe you her attention. Aside from all the creepiness, to begin with she said no. Accept that, leave her alone.

And next time, when a woman sets a boundary, pay attention. If you've gone into other dates with a similar attitude, I'm sorry but its unsurprising that it hasn't worked out. You've got to respect a woman's wishes even if, particularly if, they do not align with your own.

Does this make sense to you? 

Edit: also, a hexaflexagon of pictures is intensely creepy in the context. I think it's kind of weird in any context but definitely not appropriate here.

Edit 2: She probably didn't read your second set of messages because she blocked you.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Delightful

[skaa he/him]

2 hours ago, Delightful said:

Leave her alone. Try avoid her. Don't talk to her if you can help it. Remember that she doesn't owe you her attention. Aside from all the creepiness, to begin with she said no. Accept that, leave her alone.

And next time, when a woman sets a boundary, pay attention.

Does this make sense to you? 

Well, it makes sense now, thanks. I will continue avoiding her. I also plan to work from home as much as possible from now on, just to make things easier.

Edit:

2 hours ago, Delightful said:

Edit: also, a hexaflexagon of pictures is intensely creepy in the context. I think it's kind of weird in any context but definitely not appropriate here.

I guess so. I had just rediscovered hexaflexagons at the time and was trying to actually make one, when the idea popped in my head. I guess I didn't think that through.

2 hours ago, Delightful said:

Edit 2: She probably didn't read your second set of messages because she blocked you.

If I'm not mistaken, blocking me would mean I wouldn't have been able to see her Facebook profile. I was in fact expecting her to block me or at least unfriend me (I checked daily; yes, I'm a creep), but she never did. I'm pretty sure she just muted our Facebook conversation.

I guess it's a good thing I saved her the hassle of unfriending me in all the social networks we shared.

Edit2:

What's the age difference between you? 

She's 23. I don't think the seven-year age difference really matters, at least according to XKCD (okay, just kidding). I think she just doesn't like me, probably for similar reasons as those other girls who rejected me in the past.

 

2 hours ago, Mestiv said:

Have you tried your luck with dating sites? They may sound lame, but they're a good way to find someone you'll like and that will like you back. 

I might try that at some point. Right now I think I'll just keep myself occupied with work and hobbies. For example, I'm currently optimizing my Rubik's cube algorithm. I might also go back to learning Japanese. Who needs girls when you have a few thousand kanji characters to befriend, amirite?

Also, man, I can't wait for The Dark Talent and Arcanum Unbounded to be released.

Edited July 21, 2016 by skaa