Chapter 19 & 20 Discussion

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

Seems possible Frost's Sister and Valor could be one and the same?

Unfortunately Cultivation is the only dragon currently a Vessel, which is lame

Spoiler

Vetterlinj

Is there more than 1 dragon amongst the Shards? If so, how many are there?

Brandon Sanderson

Only 1 dragon right now as a Shard.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

1 hour ago, who_slew_aicirtap said:

I feel like Aux is too compassionate to be the same spren. I wonder if he will be introduced in this book though

To be fair, it took Aux decades to reach that point (TSM 6). I reaaaaally don't want anything bad to happen to Szeth though

Spoiler

Good luck with that, the knight replies with an exhaustive amount of rueful skepticism. Nomad missed the days of inflection in that voice. Aux might have started their relationship hesitant to show his true self, but after decades together, his expressiveness had grown and grown. Until…that day.

 

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

That Szeth comment on cowardice felt OOC, but i'll reserve my judgement.

Yeah it's weird that he regards willingness to do harm as strength given how negatively he views the whole "subtraction" thing.

55 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Dalinar and Adolin's conflict is very believable from both sides.  Which one is going to tragically die leaving the other full of regret about unresolved conflict?

Feel like Adolin's dying in Azir when Abidi comes looking for Shallan and she's not there.

[listerfeend]

29 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I agree. Not only RoW, but OB as well, there was an attack on Urithiru during Thaylen battle. Two times they did it and failed, and now the Sibling is restored, the new Bondsmith is fully aware of everything happening in the tower and all the spren there (or something, I'm not sure) with no need to even sleep, and they are going to try it again? I doubt it.

That's basically what I'm thinking as well... Not to mention, Brandon has said in the past that one of the main reasons for the switch of Odium was the fact that Rayse had already been thwarted several times, and each time they are thwarted, a villain's.. reputation is damaged, basically beyond repair. I feel the same could be said for something like this. They've attacked Urithuru twice now, and failed both times, them trying a third time, and likely failing, would be very out of character for Brando himself. And they would basically have to fail at it at this point. There is absolutely no way we went through RoW only to have the Sibling, Navani the Bondsmith, and all this other development on the Urithuru front just tossed away as it is overtaken by the forces of Odium.

[Rorzikel]

Some of Szeth's weird behavior might be returning to his homeland after so long. His beliefs on subtracting have to have shifted from the Shin norm anyways as he's planning on killing a bunch of people and yet considers it righteous.

[alder24]

Yes! Szeth’s chapter! Finally! Interestingly he calls himself son-Honor, almost like Heralds are son-god. Why? Because he's a Radiant now?

Szeth's life is ruled by voices - he heard them all of his life. I wonder when are we going to meet his childhood voice. It's sad that his Highspren didn't allow Szeth to express a little bit of emotions - have they been too long in Nale's shadow, or Highspren were always like this? There was a WoB that ancient Skybreakers would be terrified by what modern Skybreakers are doing, so maybe Nale made Highspren like this since Recreance?

Szeth roastes Kaladin. I didn't expect this and yet I’ve yearned so much for those two speak to each other. And it ended way too soon. Storm it, I want more Kaladin and Szeth! I want to see how weirded out Kaladin is because of normal grass being all around him! 

Oh, interesting. The tone of a Shard changes when a new person Ascends.

As I was listening to the tactic discussion, I realized something. The Sibling said the enemy can't come to the Tower - but they can, just not the Singers. Humans from Jah Keved or Iri can. They won't be affected by the Tower's defenses at all. Radiants will be out, fighting on three fronts, the Tower will be empty, just sitting there to be invaded again. However, most of people from Jah Keved should be on ships heading to Tahylen city - unless those are just Singers and humans are waiting to use an Oathgate (but that requires unlocking it from the Urithiru side - Skybreakers can do it). But I doubt we will see a second attempt at conquering Urithiru, we just had one, yet this is still a dangerous possibility Dalinar have missed. 

Those decisions seemed impactful and final. The best sent to Azimir, Jasnah who wants to prove herself to Thaylen city, poor Sigzil was given the command of the Shattered Plains. I feel like every one of those decisions could turn disastrous. Sig on the other hand, I know where this leads to - I don't think the Shattered Plains will hold. I already feel sorry for him. 

It's so bad between Adolin and Dalinar. It's good they will be separated, but it's also very bad too. This will only continue to grow - something that someone could exploit. 

[Isilel]

26 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

They've attacked Urithuru twice now, and failed both times, them trying a third time, and likely failing, would be very out of character for Brando himself.

 

It makes a lot of sense for them to try again, though. Isn't Todium's goal to set things up so that all outcomes are satisfactory for him? So, he'll be doing a number of things and some of them will succeed.

Personally, I hope that someone stalls Nale by engaging him in a legal battle, until whatever happens with the Wind and/or BAM that will hopefully restore Heraldic sanity and lead to their disappearance. Which would free the Skybreakers to decide for themselves.

Another thing that bugs me is why nobody proposes to dismantle the physical structure of the Azish Oathgate, like the Fused wanted to do in Thaylenah in OB. Shouldn't the Sibling - and Hoid, know about such possibility, if the Fused do?

I am worried about Adolin, though his behaviour is perfectly understandable. Dalinar is an idiot.

How much of a. mistake is Shallan's attack on the Ghostbloods going to be? On the one hand, the Ghostbloods had already collaborated with the Fused, so they come across as a possible Fifth Column. On the other, this may not be the time for such s distraction, even apart from the whole them likely leading her and hers into a trap...

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by Isilel

[Etedbert he/him]

I’ve never been a big backer of the Adolin as Odium’s champion theory, but I can definitely see it as a bigger possibility now. The choice to use a skeleton crew for Azimir is clearly going to backfire and blow up in Dalinar’s face.
 

My guess is possibly the inclusion of an unmade in the assault will turn the tide and let Singer forces overwhelm the defense. Maybe TOdium will offer to withdraw his troops immediately if Adolin agrees to serve as his champion against Dalinar?

The tension between Dalinar and Adolin definitely seems to be pushing Adolin closer in line with Odium. If TOdium makes enough of a bloodbath at Azimir, and convinces Adolin that it’s Dalinar’s fault, I could see him turning against his father.

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I think the Coalition chapter sort of shows why Bondsmiths don't have "Leading" as their Divine attribute. As leader you have to make decisions which might involve comprises that make no-one happy, whereas as Bondsmith you should unite.

 

I very much disagree. IMHO, the gem archive demonstrates that the Windrunners, who do have the "Leading" attribute, could have never been the leaders of all the Radiants in the old days, because a number of Orders bitterly disagreed with them. It took the Bondsmiths to point the Radiants in mostly the same direction, and ideally more than one of them.

 

[therunner he/him]

15 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I very much disagree. IMHO, the gem archive demonstrates that the Windrunners, who do have the "Leading" attribute, could have never been the leaders of all the Radiants in the old days, because a number of Orders bitterly disagreed with them. It took the Bondsmiths to point the Radiants in mostly the same direction, and ideally more than one of them.

I'd say Bondsmiths are useful to unite not to lead, which is what they were doing historically.

So historically, Bondsmiths ensured that Radiants are (mostly) united. Someone does not have to lead (and in fact I think it is counterproductive to some extent) to unite/guide.

Jezrien was the leader of the Heralds, not Ishar. And similarly, I think often it was a Windrunner who ended up somewhat in charge of Radiants, though I think mostly the Orders governed themselves.

Edit: After all, Kaladin is setup as inheritor to Urithiru, as the kingdom of Radiants.

@alder24 

Quote

Sig on the other hand, I know where this leads to - I don't think the Shattered Plains will hold. I already feel sorry for him. 

Yeah, I think so too, especially in light of TSM.
Perhaps this will lead to Sig swearing 4th Ideal? His armor did have windspren as well.

Side note: More and more I think something will happen to all the Honorspren. Perhaps "Unite them" will have bit of a bitter taste, if Honorspren are truly as much of honor as they claim. (and it would make Syl's constant comments that she is a piece of God into foreshadowing in hindsight).

Edited October 7, 2024 by therunner

[BinarySecond]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

That Szeth comment on cowardice felt OOC, but i'll reserve my judgement.

Yeah it seemed like he was trying to rattle Kaladin for some reason; but either didn't follow up on it or didn't mean it that way but why would he do that?

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

...Rayse inherited a promise from Adonalsium that he wishes he could break. I wonder what it is? Not harming Hoid or not harming former Dawnshards generally unless they break an oath? Not harming living things directly unless they break a promise? Like how Wit said Odium could wipe out all of Roshar if Fen broke the agreement.  

Yeah, I wondered about that hint/reference as well. What did Rayse (not Taravangian) learn about having to respect oaths that "the power" had already bound itself to?

Hoid was only under personal protection from Odium's direct wrath as a result of a clause in the contract he wrote up for Dalinar for the Contest of Champions -- until then, he had been terrified of being discovered by Odium on Roshar, because Odium would had destroyed him in an instant. So it's not something like that.

It could have something to do with his being on Roshar and how he got trapped by Honor to end up bound to the system, though. We know Adonalsium created Roshar with a specific design in mind.

[teknopathetic he/him]

What can the humans do? Can they go take some capitals then at the last second? 

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I get that in universe there needs to be a board meeting where people get assigned to the C, D, and E plots but its kind of boring to read about.  And drawing even more attention to silly rules lawyering arguments (Odium can exploit the rules but you can't because the inscrutable rules say so) seems awkward.

Yeah, this has been a contract law seminar at times. At least they are smart enough to continue to look for loopholes because this capture the capital loophole doesn't help Odium with the larger problem. No matter how much land the Singers control it doesn't free him from abiding by the terms of the agreement he made. 

[Subvisual Haze]

23 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

What can the humans do? Can they go take some capitals then at the last second? 

King of the Hill rules are in effect.  Whoever has the most people standing around in the Oathgate when the contest concludes wins the entire Kingdom.

[Dofurion]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Also, interesting that old Radiants were unable to do the Lightweaving map. Is it because Dalinar is first to bond Stormfather as he is now, or because restrictions on Surges are falling away?

I had already said it in another post, the Radiant orders were very separated from each other, it is very likely that in all that time they never tried to use powers together.

[+robardin he/him]

3 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah, this has been a contract law seminar at times. At least they are smart enough to continue to look for loopholes because this capture the capital loophole doesn't help Odium with the larger problem. No matter how much land the Singers control it doesn't free him from abiding by the terms of the agreement he made. 

That's why I think it's a distraction ploy on Taravangian's part, because something still doesn't add up...

The three-prong attack on Azimir, Thaylen City, and Stormseat -- including a massive force of singers, the "ships full of common soldiers" (not Fused), waiting to break through from Shadesmar -- clearly took longer than 1-2 days to physically coordinate, as the Mink points out.

So Wit saying "Rayse would never have done this" cannot be true: Rayse had to have been the one to set up the pieces for this move.

That, or T'Odium has been REALLY on the ball and did that "use a lot of Stormlight to make physical ships from idea-beads in Shadesmar" (and moving all those singers into Shadesmar how? Via an Oathgate they control and which allows them to pass, like in Kholinar?) in just two days' time.

25 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

I had already said it in another post, the Radiant orders were very separated from each other, it is very likely that in all that time they never tried to use powers together.

The 3D map of Roshar is a mix of the Bondsmith power pulling on a Lightweaver while using information seen by the Stormfather as the highstorms roll across the lands.

As such, if it's not something previously seen by the Sibling (who's seen a lot of Stormfather-bonded Bondsmiths in Urithiru in their time!), I think it has to do with Dalinar's bond to the Stormfather being different from all previous Bondsmiths bonded to the SF: he's the first one to do so after Honor "died" and a large Splinter attached itself to SF.

As Odium put it to Dalinar, "You are the first to bond the Stormfather in his current state. Did you know that? You are deeply connected to the remnants of a god."

The Sibling also comments on how the Stormfather isn't like he used to be, that he used to be "happier" (?!) instead of "angry all the time".

 

[listerfeend]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

It makes a lot of sense for them to try again, though. Isn't Todium's goal to set things up so that all outcomes are satisfactory for him? So, he'll be doing a number of things and some of them will succeed.

It makes sense tactically, for sure. Narratively it is boring, and doomed to failure. 

 

7 minutes ago, robardin said:

That, or T'Odium has been REALLY on the ball and did that "use a lot of Stormlight to make physical ships from idea-beads in Shadesmar" (and moving all those singers into Shadesmar how? Via an Oathgate they control and which allows them to pass, like in Kholinar?) in just two days' time.

As a Shard, especially a recently Ascended Vessel of a Shard, T'Odium could theoretically just teleport everyone to Shadesmar at a whim. They are all "given" to him fully. He can do what ever he wants with them.

[Nesh he/him]

17 minutes ago, robardin said:

That, or T'Odium has been REALLY on the ball and did that "use a lot of Stormlight to make physical ships from idea-beads in Shadesmar" (and moving all those singers into Shadesmar how? Via an Oathgate they control and which allows them to pass, like in Kholinar?) in just two days' time.

Earlier in the preview chapters it sounded as if the enemy had access to the perpendicularity at the Horneater Peaks, so that's a possible entry point.  They also have access to Transportation.  As for the ships, do we know if you can manifest using Voidlight?

Edited October 7, 2024 by Nesh

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Jezrien was the leader of the Heralds, not Ishar.

 

Or so the lore claims. Yet Ishar was behind all the most important decisions made by the Heralds.

Chapter 111 of RoW specifically goes into how Ishar's depiction, given by Shalash,  differed from Dalinar's expectations:

 

Quote

 

"She presented Ishar as a confident, eager man. Energetic, more a battlefield commander than a wise old scholar....

Ishar was a bold thinker, a man who pulled others after him on seemingly crazed ideas that worked."

 

 

Sounds very much like a leader to me! Rather similar to Dalinar, in fact.

I would say that what we know about the history of bitter disagreements between the Windrunners and the Skybreakers (and some other Orders, IIRC), makes it pretty certain that Windrunners weren't overall leaders of the Radiants in the past.

It is different in WaT, with the different make-up of the anti-Odium Radiants. Kaladin may indeed become such a leader, though I have my doubts that this will come to pass. It is also far from certain that he will be (only) a Windrunner if this happens, rather than a Bondsmith or dual-bonded.

[GudThymes he/him]

32 minutes ago, robardin said:

The Sibling also comments on how the Stormfather isn't like he used to be, that he used to be "happier" (?!) instead of "angry all the time".

I picked up on that too and found it very interesting. My two thoughts on it are option 1) some kind of spiritual realm influence coming from the future where odium and honor shards get merged or 2) Dalinar is affecting a change on the stormfather due to his deep connection to Odium (source Oathbringer).

 

I know a lot think that the Adolin interaction is foreshadowing death, for me it locked in my opinion that Adolin will be the champion but it's going to be for a reason most of us can stand behind. This whole series is about morality and how there is no absolute good, I think that TOdium will be successful in swaying Adolin using Malayaran in some way.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

So historically, Bondsmiths ensured that Radiants are (mostly) united. Someone does not have to lead (and in fact I think it is counterproductive to some extent) to unite/guide.

Jezrien was the leader of the Heralds, not Ishar. And similarly, I think often it was a Windrunner who ended up somewhat in charge of Radiants, though I think mostly the Orders governed themselves.

Yet Melishi unquestionably led during the False Desolation.

36 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

It makes sense tactically, for sure. Narratively it is boring, and doomed to failure.

It is boring only if it fails. What if Wind and Truth ends with The Sibling unmade?

37 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

As a Shard, especially a recently Ascended Vessel of a Shard, T'Odium could theoretically just teleport everyone to Shadesmar at a whim. They are all "given" to him fully. He can do what ever he wants with them.

Then why bother with the ships? Why not just teleport them right to the oath gate?

49 minutes ago, robardin said:

The three-prong attack on Azimir, Thaylen City, and Stormseat -- including a massive force of singers, the "ships full of common soldiers" (not Fused), waiting to break through from Shadesmar -- clearly took longer than 1-2 days to physically coordinate, as the Mink points out.

So Wit saying "Rayse would never have done this" cannot be true: Rayse had to have been the one to set up the pieces for this move.

That, or T'Odium has been REALLY on the ball and did that "use a lot of Stormlight to make physical ships from idea-beads in Shadesmar" (and moving all those singers into Shadesmar how? Via an Oathgate they control and which allows them to pass, like in Kholinar?) in just two days' time.

Odium made an effort to conquer the perpendicularity and put forces into Shadesmar as early as Oathbringer. Why, if he never intended to use his conquest? This assault looks like something planned years ago.

[+robardin he/him]

16 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I picked up on that too and found it very interesting. My two thoughts on it are option 1) some kind of spiritual realm influence coming from the future where odium and honor shards get merged or 2) Dalinar is affecting a change on the stormfather due to his deep connection to Odium (source Oathbringer).

I don't think you have to ascribe some kind of feedback from Dalinar to explain the Stormfather's changes from before the Sibling "went to sleep" -- we know that happened just before the Recreance, for which Honor was still alive but dying as he "did not support" the Radiants but "raved about the Dawnshards".

Honor then set about preparing for his demise, upgrading the Stormfather to be able to create new honorspren (formerly reserved to Himself) and recording the Honorvisions while requiring the SF to find a Bondsmith to show them to as the True Desolation and the Everstorm approached.

As Cultivation said to Dalinar in Ch. 16 of WaT,

Quote

Tanavast—the Vessel that once held Honor—is dead, but the power remains. Somewhere. It’s a conundrum that few scholars even know to ponder upon. None know what became of Honor’s power. Have you any guesses?”

“It’s the spren, maybe,” Dalinar said.

“Some say that Honor was Splintered by Odium when he killed Tanavast—as he did to others before—becoming the spren, as the power of a god left alone will begin to think.” She shook her head. “But they’re wrong. The spren existed before Tanavast’s death. They are of him, but are not the core of his power. It still exists.” She looked him in the eyes. “It is the power and substance of the visions you were shown, starting years ago. It seeks for men to see their heritage, as it searches for a new Vessel to hold it.”

What if Tanavast gave up most of the Shard of Honor and stuffed it himself into the Spiritual Realm to avoid it being Splintered, as Odium had managed to do with several other Shards (but in the SR instead of CR as happened with Dominion and Devotion)?

And the "part of Honor" that attached to the Stormfather is, as a WoB would confirm explicitly, essentially Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, like "Fuzz" was of Preservation in Mistborn: Secret History.

Quote

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

Which would explain his darker turn. I mean, Tanavast DIED and was also "going mad" towards the end.

It does make it interesting to consider why/how the Stormfather was so insistent that "Odium reigns" and actively trying to kill the Alethi army at the Battle of Narak with a highstorm, while deriding Second Ideal Dalinar with "GO, BONDSMITH. LEAD YOUR DYING PEOPLE TO FAILURE. ODIUM DESTROYED THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. YOU ARE NOTHING TO HIM."

[who_slew_aicirtap she/they]

Uhm so real question: how does Szeth know what the leggings under Syl's skirt look like???

[morcey2]

8 minutes ago, who_slew_aicirtap said:

Uhm so real question: how does Szeth know what the leggings under Syl's skirt look like???

Nightblood told him.  It's obvious. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 minutes ago, who_slew_aicirtap said:

Uhm so real question: how does Szeth know what the leggings under Syl's skirt look like???

It was my impression that Kaladin/Syl landed on a rock that is physically located higher than Szeth, so he is looking up. Her skirt, being copied from a uniform intended for fighting in, has to be fairly short and wide.

[Confused]

I’m writing this mostly in Brandon’s narrative order. Some of the stuff lower down might engage you more than earlier comments. I marked those sections with red typeface.

Chapter 19

1.      Szeth has always had OCD. But this is reaching Howie Mandel levels:

Quote

Life could be so full of distracting, meaningless small decisions while the large ones—such as determining his duty to his people—were so hard.

So he pretended it was right to continue his routines. If they were wrong—if instead he should have a preference among many tiny options… well, that made him shudder to his core.

This passage shows how uncomfortable Szeth is with making decisions. Yet he is on the path to becoming “the Law.” How will that happen? Right or wrong, judges are never indecisive. “Journey before destination” indeed.

2.      I get it now...

Quote

Kaladin alighted on a rock nearby, confusionspren—like streaks of violet extending from a central point—expanding behind him. [Emphasis added.]

At last I know the source of all that purple prose flowing so profusely from me!

3.      Dandelions... Ugh.

Quote

“No,” Szeth whispered. “It is merely a weed. The most beautiful of weeds…”

Szeth may like dandelions, but after spending all summer weed-whacking them and other vegetation for fire season, not so “beautiful.” Tough to cut and regrows quickly. Retracting weeds seems a much better idea to me... Come the fire, weeds hide and won’t burn!

4.      Hottie Syl?

Quote

[Syl] landed and appeared as a full-sized human in a skirted Bridge Four uniform, leggings underneath reaching down to mid-thigh.

That’s really short, and apparently the leggings are longer than the skirt! What is going on with that spren!

5.      Szeth’s highspren is a jerk.

Quote

“This emotion is unfitting of your station,” the spren said, audible and visible only to him. “Do not spoil your dignity with base sentimentality. You serve the law.”

What? Since when are logic and the law without emotion? A famous judge once said breakfast frequently determines rulings – how content is a judge when he rules. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. wrote, “The life of the law has not been logic: it has been experience.” (He was also the guy who said the First Amendment does not protect someone shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater.)

Spoiler

FWIW, Holmes’ father, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., wrote the poem “Old Ironsides,” which many of us learned in grade school. That 1830 poem saved the U.S.S. Constitution from decommissioning. He also wrote these lines, which Brandon himself might have said:

Quote

I find the great thing in this world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving: To reach the port of heaven, we must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it, but we must sail, and not drift, nor lie at anchor.

Szeth is an emotional person: “After so many, many years, his booted feet fell not on blasphemous stone.” Despite all that’s happened to him, he still cares and feels deeply. That (to me) is an interesting character feature. I suppose feeling deeply is an adjunct to his OCD.

6.      Szeth is ALSO a jerk.

Quote

“No wonder you broke and gave up the spear,” Szeth said, “leaving your friends to battle without you. You have grown into a coward, then? ...

“I should not speak truth?” Szeth said, genuinely curious” ...

“Then you should stop talking,” Szeth replied. “Because if you cannot explain what you mean, then why voice silly thoughts?” ...

Szeth walked on, and reminded himself not to underestimate this man’s skill. Kaladin deserved at least some of his fearsome reputation. [Bold added.]

Where does this come from? Szeth hardly talks, and he says this? Szeth has no understanding of people. He should not be making decisions that affect others yet. Better to rely on Dalinar.

OTOH, Szeth has callously murdered scores - hundreds? - of people who didn't deserve to die. His life as a Truthless consists of PTSD, guilt, regret, and the constant reminder of the Voices. Szeth more than anyone might consider Kaladin weak for rejecting killing.

I suspect this exchange foreshadows Kal’s therapeutic treatment of Szeth. A courageous person sometimes needs to back down. Maybe Kal teaches that to Szeth. At minimum, Szeth needs to learn that just because something may be true doesn’t mean you should use that truth to hurt someone. Even Syl realizes this:

Quote

“I think these plants are neat,” Syl said. She seemed to be trying to distract Kaladin from his annoyance at Szeth—which was an odd emotion to be displaying in the face of true statements expressed clearly.

Chapter 20:

1.      Relationship between Sibling and Stormfather.

Quote

I miss how the Stormfather used to be, the Sibling said. He was so much happier before. Not so angry all the time…

Why? Is Tanavast’s cognitive shadow angry at having been killed? Or maybe Ishar has influenced him? It does suggest an Odium influence; but other than the SF’s weirdness, there’s not been much evidence of that, Stormfaker arguments notwithstanding.

Beyond that, the statement about their sibling is kind of cute. The Sibling misses their brother!

2.      Taravangian’s Mistake?

Wit says of the Vessel change,

Quote

The old Odium was deeply calcified into his position as a god—and was very unlikely to do anything that would risk that position. The new one was likely a mortal before their Ascension. They’ll be more brash, more willing to take risks. [Bold added.]

I think this statement foreshadows a Taravangian mistake later in the book. I believe the contest of champions will pit the Stormfather against Taravangian’s champion, the Everstorm. The Everstorm by that time will be a living entity, if it hasn’t always been. Taravangian’s mistake, IMO, is that the Everstorm moves counter-cyclically to the highstorm. It will destroy Kharbranth. I’ve written that this will distract Taravangian from the battle and enable Dalinar to defeat him. I believe WoK Chapter 2, “The City of Bells,” and its Epigraph foreshadows this.

3.      Cultivation’s Impact?

Quote

I’ve encountered nothing like this, they said in her mind. How? How can you do things the ancient Radiants never did?

Science is usually the product of incremental advances, shared across a body of people working together, Navani said. But sometimes that group limits you, because they make assumptions. I know there are many things we’ve lost that the ancient Radiants did better—but at the same time, we’re not limited by their expectations.

Cultivation must have some involvement in this change, advertently or otherwise. Brandon here expresses the main conclusion from Thomas Kuhn’s seminal work, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. (FWIW, that book coins the phrase "paradigm shift.”) Kuhn argues radical changes are rare and come from breaking the limiting assumptions made by earlier folk. Einstein’s departure from Newtonian Mechanics is an example, since unlike Newton Einstein theorized time is variable and not a constant. Once a new paradigm is in place, scientists then look for further proofs and to make incremental advances in the new understanding.

4.      Bad Pun...or Foreshadowing?

Quote

The same went for the Shattered Plains: Navani knew firsthand how difficult that territory was to crack. [Emphasis added.]

Ouch! Further crack the Shattered Plains? A bad pun? Sure. But I think this may foreshadow the destruction of the Shattered Plains during the fight there:

Quote

WaT Prediction: Highstorm and Everstorm meet in battle. The Shattered Plains completely shatter. The chaos causes the Physical Realm to temporarily merge with Shadesmar. Kaladin arrives from Shinovar to take part. Source.

Further evidence: Dalinar sends the “Stormwall” to the Shattered Plains to help Sigzil and his Radiants.

5.      Is Yanagawn descended from Nohadon?

Yanagawn sure has come a long way in a short time. From a barely competent thief to one of Roshar’s leaders? Noura lets Yanagawn speak now on his own. It seems to me that Yanagawn is certainly infected with the spirit of Nohadon if he’s not related. And the Epigraphs in this Part are about Nohadon. Just saying...

6.      Will Dalinar use Stormlight to send Singer transport ships back to Shadesmar?

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Ships do not materialize out of thin air.”

They do there, the Sibling noted. Though it requires Stormlight…

If ships can materialize into Shadesmar with enough Stormlight, can Dalinar open his perpendicularity to “materialize” the troop transports bearing down on Thaylenah into Shadesmar? That would be a neat solution, perhaps delaying them past the 10 days?

7.      Adolin!?

Well, we now know Adolin doesn’t accompany Shallan to the Spiritual Realm. I agree with those folks who think Adolin dies. Is he resurrected as a cognitive shadow, a Fused, something else, or not at all? Especially if he dies, I think we’ll discover Adolin, Jr. already occupies Shallan’s belly...

That’s all, Folks! C.

P.S. –  Oops! I forgot to mention @Oltux72’s excellent catch about the Skybreakers. I also neglected my weekly limerick summary! I do believe the Skybreakers will try to enter Urithiru. With the Coalition’s troops all gone, this is too sweet an opportunity to overlook. But I don’t believe they want to occupy the Tower. My best guess is they’ll try to kidnap/kill Navani. They may succeed based on this logic: If Dalinar Ascends, can he continue his marriage with Navani? He waited so long to win her. At minimum, Shard-human love seems...odd. It reminds me of Zeus knocking up all those Greek maidens. Leda and the Swan? Jupiter and Io?

The following Spoiler quotes W.B. Yeats’ sonnet, “Leda and the Swan,” and shows Renaissance artist Correggio’s “Jupiter and Io.” The poem is graphic, and the painting has nudity in it. Don’t look if you offend easily.

Spoiler

After Zeus’s assault, Leda gave birth to Helen of Troy. Yeats attributes the Trojan War to the assault. “Jupiter and Io” speaks for itself. Zeus appears to Io as a misty cloud. You can make out his kiss and embrace in the painting.

A sudden blow: the great wings beating still
Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed
By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill,
He holds her helpless breast upon his breast.

How can those terrified vague fingers push
The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?
And how can body, laid in that white rush,
But feel the strange heart beating where it lies?

A shudder in the loins engenders there
The broken wall, the burning roof and tower
And Agamemnon dead.
                    Being so caught up,
So mastered by the brute blood of the air,
Did she put on his knowledge with his power
Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?

Here's a copy of Jupiter and Io:

I probably shouldn’t follow Nobel Laureate Yeats with a stupid limerick. Whatever...

Kal goes with Szeth on their field trip.

Szeth thinks that Kal is a real drip.

The leaders all plan

To defend Roshar’s land.

Will the Plains undergo still one more rip?

Edited October 8, 2024 by Confused