agrabes

This week's chapters honestly made me feel like Shallan is more stable than the previous chapter we had from her. This week's chapters made it feel like the three personas all have a bit of an understanding - that they try to let each one come out for what they are each best at. Last week, it seemed like Veil was in full control. I still think that she's not in a "good" situation and still worse than the end of OB in some respects. She's lost the small bit of self-identity she had in OB, that during OB she knew she was Shallan but wanted to become someone else. Now, she thinks she is three people all at once, which is as we know a mental disorder. But at least the three selves seem to be sharing nicely and there's no sign of a fourth being created. I liked the interactions between Kaladin and the "Windrunner" Fused. What I took out of it was that I think each Radiant order and its respective mirrored Fused order hold the same core values. So when you look at an order like the Windrunners/Heavenly Ones because a big part of their values are protection and fighting honorably, you see that the Heavenly Ones act very much like the Windrunners, they engage in one on one battles, don't involve the innocent, etc. I think this is why Kaladin is drawn to Leshwi - he sees a reflection of himself there. What might have been, if a few things went different in his life and he'd wound up fighting on the other side. This is how he would fight if he had landed on Odium's team. I think what you'll probably see is that some orders like Windrunner/Skybreaker/Stoneward Fused will mostly be that kind of honorable villain that you fight because you ended up on different sides somehow, but wish you didn't have to. The values of those orders won't allow their members to be overly cruel, they will be bound by certain strict codes. Like the Skybreaker Fused would respect the laws of war and not harm prisoners, the Stoneward Fused would keep its word and generally fight defensive lost cause type battles, not go out and pillage. Other orders have less rigid values on the Radiant side and that would open them up to more "evil" interpretations on the Fused side. In Ch. 4 we see the Shallan triad basically say it's ok to lie and give a false oath so long as it's not to their own spren. I imagine the Fused Lightweavers get much nastier. Wild Theory: Moash will become a Fused of the Skybreaker mirror order.

I pulled up the chapter. You're right that by this time Mraize had figured out her true identity. It's actually the scene where he tells her he's just figured it out. I really don't think there's much that can be taken from that Mraize section. He claims that Shallan Davar is the false identity, but then later he says "I should have guessed that you would turn out to be Shallan Davar." So, he already says he knows that Shallan is the true identity. Everything he says beyond that, in the context of the scene, seems to be pure manipulation. He is trying to manipulate Shallan to work for the Ghostbloods. And at least for now the Ghostbloods are being portrayed as a pretty sinister organization. Maybe later on we'll learn they're actually some of the good guys, but I'd guess at most they are like anti-hero types, bad on all other accounts except that they are possibly fighting Odium. I think you see one aspect of Shallan in those two pivotal battles, an aspect she did try to hide. But I think that's just a small part of her. Like, I don't think the way she was in those two short scenes are the way she would be all the time if she was 100% fully integrated. But it's a true part of her that she's able to do it and not scared to do it if she needs to.

Thanks good explanation - I think we're closer to being on the same page than not. I agree with your general idea of possible "Shallan 1/2/3". I don't think that there's a "Shallan 1" that's nothing like the "Shallan 2" we meet in WoK, but that "Shallan 2" is basically "Shallan 1" with a few pieces chipped off and buried deep in her mind. And that more pieces get chipped off to create "Shallan 3". I guess in terms of her timid/aggressive nature and the WoB quote, how I read that is that maybe she did hide away the part of her that was capable of violence and overt action. Maybe in more of a "suppressed memory" way originally, and then it became DID later. I think what the WoB means is that the part of her that is timid, like deferring to Jasnah, or feeling she needs to stay quiet when her "betters" are talking, is not the real true her. That's learned behavior from her childhood and trying to manage her father's abuse. But the part of her that likes to talk out of turn, cares a little less about propriety, loves art and nature, that we see in WoR and early OB is the passionate part that is most like the real her.

I get your point about what is more or less true to a person's core, but what you've said is not really accurate to the state of Shallan's character that we've read in the books so far. When Shallan is alone, or with close friends, in moments she can let her guard down she is never Veil. So if Veil were the truest part of herself, the part that she is when she can relax and be however she wants to be, then she would revert to Veil or would have acted like Veil prior to her creating the Veil persona in those situations. In the times we see her at her most relaxed and intimate, she is Shallan. When she is under stress, that's when Veil comes out. At least, that's my memory of the books. I don't think Shallan is a coping mechanism. I think the opposite is true - Veil and Radiant are coping mechanisms. We see this in the book. They are created in response to trauma. Shallan is a more complete personality - yes she does sometimes has to put on a face for official business or to please others. But she can also act out childishly, telling bad jokes. She can express joy and wonder for the natural world and art. All the good things we associate with her character have been done by the main Shallan personality, even sneaky, roguish behavior. She's pushed some of that into Veil now, but think about early WoR and even WoK.

There are also in context explanations for both of these instances. Especially the Mraize situation. The other one I think might be something if the theory that there is a totally different "true" Shallan out there we haven't met yet is correct. Mraize first heard about her from Tyn, who reported to him that she was a con artist pretending to be Shallan Davar. He then saw the way she behaved herself around him and the other Ghostbloods, confirming his suspicions. The reason he believed that Veil was the real one and Shallan was fake all goes back to the reports that came from Tyn. And if you think about it logically, it's much more likely that a darkeyed con artist would want to impersonate a lighteyes who is engaged to be married into one of the wealthiest families in Alethkar, than for that lighteyes to impersonate a random darkeyes. It's not some deep insight into her true nature, it's that he got bad information to start with and then made a wrong conclusion from that. In the OB scene, she says both are equally false for two reasons. First, this is during the time she is starting to lose control of herself. This is her mental illness starting to show through. Second, Shallan doesn't really trust Ishnah. She is trying to keep Ishnah from getting leverage on her and has to keep up all kinds of subterfuge related to the Ghostbloods, so she lies about her identity. She doesn't want Ishnah to try to come into her normal life. @Jenet My theory in terms of Shallan's truths is that she still has not truly faced her 3rd truth. She said it, but still hasn't internalized or processed it yet. She's avoiding it. I think based on Pattern's reactions when they talk about it and also the way Shallan herself acted afterward, I think saying the truth without being ready really messed her up. Though maybe she was able to come to terms with it in the 1 year gap between books. So, I think her path forward is to first come to terms with all the truths she's said so far if she hasn't already and then work toward the final truth. I think after that final truth we'll see her have a similar moment of triumph but then when the action fades it's going to mess her up for a while again, like her 3rd Truth.

Right, sorry a bit confusing. I was talking about the quote you did provide, but then also quoted a quote someone else provided. I think there is one true Shallan - who has many facets. A person without DID can express different aspects of themselves at different times as called for by the situation but always remain themselves. And I think the excerpt you just quoted now - the "all of them" portion - is that healthy part of her brain trying to convince herself that not only is she all of them, but all of them are her. To me, that's a distinction. Shallan can be sneaky and roguish, as long as she's still Shallan at heart. That's Shallan showing her roguish side, being multi-faceted. Veil controlling Shallan's body is different. Veil is what you would get if you took Shallan and took away all her personality traits except for roguishness.

Yeah - sorry all I did not mean to rekindle those old debates from the shipping wars days 3 years ago. @Karger Thanks for providing the quote from the book. I did see that one, but read it as either Veil self-disciplining or that when 2 of the 3 personalities agree they can override the other. I think really to know the true state of things we need to see what happens once we see Shallan in situations that aren't a stealth mission. When she's off the clock who does she default to? Does she still think of herself as Veil? If so, that's what is concerning to me. Before, when she was just relaxing, she was Shallan. I think I've kind of isolated what bugs me about this - I liked the Shallan we read in WoK, WoR, and early OB. She was insecure and didn't realize how competent and intelligent she really was. She didn't really always understand how damaged she was and also didn't realize that despite all her hardships she still was a bit sheltered in some ways and had certain privileges. But it was really fun to watch her grow and succeed despite her lack of confidence. And at the beginning of OB, she was just starting to become a bit confident. When Jasnah came back, being forced back into a student/subordinate role kind of shattered her fragile self esteem and I think was what really started her on the downward spiral. I don't particularly like Veil, Radiant, or a possible blended character with all three personas getting lines in here and there like Ch. 2 of RoW. And I feel like the Shallan from the first 2 1/4 books has lost herself and may never come back. I like the idea that she has to face dark times and may get worse before she gets better. But I don't like the idea that she might not ever be the same person we met in WoK again. That's why I hope that at the end of the day, she becomes a wiser, more self confident Shallan again and maybe she can let Veil or Radiant out occasionally, maybe she even talks to them in her head, or maybe she becomes a Shallan who has a few of Veil's personality traits, but she's still Shallan. We see several lines like this in the RoW Ch. 2 POV and they are what make me feel there is still something majorly wrong. The Shallan we were presented in WoK is the "Shallan" persona. We can theorize that that persona is simply another false front, hiding a true self we've never yet seen. It might be true. But I don't think so. For two whole books, we saw one version of Shallan. I think just by sake of simplicity, we should assume that the Shallan we saw first and have seen the most of is the one that is the closest to her "real" self. It may not have been the complete, "true" Shallan, but it's the closest thing we've seen. So this line to me is a sign that there is still a lot of danger for Shallan. Her created false personas want to destroy the part of her that is most like herself, most like the person she was prior to creating the two recent personas. Even if the Shallan we saw in WoK was also a false face, we have to assume that it is the most like her "true" self that we have seen, because there were fewer alternate personalities at that time.

At least in the section we get from RoW, I don't think there's any evidence of this though. It seems Veil may be filling the role of "moderator" to at least some degree. "Shallan" herself is the one being pushed into the background by Veil more than once. We could see more evidence of it later. I'll be really interested to see what Adolin and the other Radiants think of Shallan's state. That might give us more perspective. I don't know that we have lots of evidence of this. I mean, I know during the shipping wars post OB people theorized that Veil and Radiant had stolen away portions of Shallan, leaving the Shallan that was left with less of herself. I kind of bought into those theories back then, but I don't think that's probably the case now that we're being told she is being written as if she has DID. So at least as I understand it, this would not cannibalize her original personality (i.e. if Veil is sneaky, it doesn't mean Shallan can no longer be sneaky) but instead just create an additional separate personality with different primary traits that can handle difficult situations for her. But regardless of what people said back then, your theory could be correct and would explain why there was no evidence of her having DID prior to OB. If she was already just a split personality at that point with her "true" self locked away then we wouldn't see it.

Since I drew the opposite conclusion from you, I'm interested - what is it about the section we've seen that makes you think Shallan is more in control here vs. the end of OB? I guess just that you didn't feel Veil was in control, or that you don't think that's a problem? I do like your theory of what might come next for Shallan. I'm still not 100% convinced on what comes next with this situation, like you said in light of the WoB. I think there is (possibly) something more going on here though. In tWoK and WoR, there was no evidence that Shallan had DID. But the trauma that caused the DID was long before those books. So how could it be that she is only now creating these personas? Wouldn't at least one alternate personality have existed ever since the original trauma? Maybe that's just because Sanderson only chose to go full DID after he'd already written WoR. Maybe that's just how the disorder works in real life. Or maybe it's a sign that it was brought on by her Truths and her inability to handle them in a way that a normal human on Earth would not face, and maybe once she can actually accept them she will at least get significantly better with her condition. That since the DID came on unnaturally, it might also leave unnaturally. My hope is that at least the Shallan we knew from tWoK and WoR will firmly assert herself as the one in the driver's seat by the end of the series. Even if Veil and Radiant are still around, I could live with that. I'll admit, it's part of my own identity that a strong sense of self control is very important to me. That I am me and everything I do is because I consciously chose to do it. So the idea that there could be this part of you that isn't you that has even a small portion of control over yourself is basically what a psychological horror movie looks like for me. Maybe I'm more sensitive toward this than the average bear.

Personally, I consider it out of control if she believes that there are three distinct personalities with their own wills living within her body and extremely out of control if she sees herself "Shallan" as not the main personality who is in control. When she started, she was in control. She created Veil to do the things that needed to be done sneakily, but Veil was a character that she (Shallan) played. Veil had no will of her own, it was Shallan acting as Veil. Then, slowly Veil did have a will of her own, but Shallan was still in control. Veil only came out when Shallan wanted Veil to come out. Then, Shallan got scared of using her shardblade and so she created the character Radiant that she could play who had no fear. But then, she lost control. It was no longer Shallan in charge, Veil started coming out when Shallan didn't want her to. And then Radiant started to gain her own personality and will. Now, in Ch. 2 of RoW, the character is introduced as Veil, not Shallan. That's got to be meaningful. Always before, the introduction would have been something like "Shallan had been spending a lot of time as Veil this month". Instead we get "Veil was growing upset." Veil is in full control. Veil decides when Shallan gets to come out now. It's lines like this that make me believe things are in some ways even more messed up than they were before: "The shoe merchant finally approached her—a stout fellow with a beard striped with white. With that contrast, Shallan had an urge to draw him, so Veil stepped back and let Shallan emerge to take a Memory of him for her collection." Shallan is not in control of herself. She's stabilized in the sense that she is no longer generating additional personas, but she's worse in the sense that as of the end of OB, Shallan was still at least partially in control of which personality was in charge of her body.

Yeah, I'd seen some WoBs to that effect before too but didn't remember all the details. I guess I'll still hold out hope that it's somehow a magical ailment that is being portrayed realistically while she has it and that it will vanish once she learns to use her magic better or that she can at least get it under better control by the end of RoW or at some point in SA5. But, yeah, I guess I have to prepare for the possibility that there will always be 3 personalities. I don't know enough about the real disorder to know if it's a permanent condition, or if people can "recover" or at least get to a point where they have a more "normalized" view of themselves.

You know, I was going to say I thought you were wrong about this, but I went back to read it again and I think you are completely correct at least that there is a "primary" and that Veil is it right now. The start of the POV section starts with "Veil was growing upset". It's like this is a "Veil" POV section, not Shallan. It's all written as if this is Veil's body, with Shallan and Radiant living inside it. This is not just Shallan acting as Veil. We've seen that before, and it's always Shallan in the background making comments like "Well, Veil did something like this, which is not how I would have done it, but that's why I have Veil" and here we see the reverse. Veil is now the one saying those things about Shallan. Personally, I hope this is not just a new reality with Shallan permanently having some version of DID. It makes me feel a little uncomfortable reading these chapters honestly - that she's lost control of herself to this degree. Hopefully, this is more of a magical ailment and not a real mental illness that predates her lightweaver abilities. I'm hoping the 5th Ideal/4th Truth will be something that helps her re-integrate herself.

Another interesting element to the Shallan personas- At the end of OB, a significant point is made that Veil is the one with bad taste in men (aka, the one who is interested in Kaladin). When we open up on her POV section in Chapter 2, Veil says Windrunners are annoying and suffocating goody two shoes. You have to think she's not too interested in Kaladin anymore. So, it seems there's been a shift in Veil's character traits. Was this something that just happened naturally, or did Shallan cause it to happen? It seems like one of three things happened: 1) Shallan intentionally modified Veil's personality to stop unwanted leering. 2) Shallan has just settled into her marriage and no longer has those lingering feelings of attraction so they no longer manifest in Veil. 3) The Veil persona itself can change its opinions over time. Either way, I think it's an interesting window into how these personas work.

Thanks for posting this, I don't usually check the Reddit discussion threads. I kind of got the same feeling from the scene in Ch. 2. The only thing I would add is that these comments from Sanderson and the real life Lyn are based on what we as readers know now. It might be that later on we'll see Kaladin do some emotional healing during RoW and be ready for a relationship in Book 5. Awesome post and you're totally right. Kaladin does have his failings, but from what we know all the women in his life so far have kind of expected him to come 70/30 and haven't tried to really understand his side of things. We know the most about his relationship with Shallan. I think in that case, it's partly his fault that while he does open up to her my memory of the scene was that he still kept certain secrets from her because at the time neither knew the other was a Radiant and were afraid of saying anything that might let that secret go. I think she really did make a genuine effort to understand him during that chasm scene. But afterwards, I think if you read between the lines, she feels guilty about having any kind of feelings for Kaladin. It's like a double taboo for her - not only is she already engaged to somebody else, he's from a lower social class and marrying Kaladin would result in financial ruin for her family. So, she tries to bury it, shifting it to her other personas and trying to act outwardly mean toward him so that people won't think she is into him. She does that mostly for herself and for Adolin's sake. So I don't totally blame her for that behavior in the same way as I would if it was just a straight up "courtship" between him and her. It's still not good, but she's in a conflicted situation so I cut her some slack. My pet theory with Tarah is that we only see Kaladin's side of the story there. She did ask him to leave his life as a soldier behind and come with her to her new job. But, maybe she was secretly hoping he would ask her to stay with him? It's not an uncommon plot device at least, whether it's something that would happen in the real world or not I'm not sure. If they meet up again, she might be like "Hey dummy, I really liked you and if you'd asked me to stay with you we might still be together." So here's hoping Kaladin finds the right one who is willing to meet him in the middle. It could be Laral and I think it would be really fun if they got together, but like I said above probably not in this book. Maybe they become friends again in this book though. She's stayed in the story so far, so it makes me feel like she still has a big role to play.

Well, yes and no. Those are the good parts of the Mongol Empire. The parts where they literally slaughtered the entire populations of cities, demanded tributes and killed all citizens of cities who refused to provide them were the bad parts. They would kill everyone who offered any resistance. They were strongly considering leveling all cities and killing all city dwelling people in the first areas of China they conquered to return them to the Steppe which they saw as the natural state. So, I guess if you ignore the mass murders they committed, then they were good. Even by the standards of their times, they were war criminals on a massive scale. They did good things too. But you have to keep them in context. You could be right on the civil war thing. I don't have WoR with me so I'll just leave it there. It doesn't seem right in my head canon but doesn't mean my head canon is right. There were only one or two on Dalinar's side. One or two might have been active allies for Sadeas, but the rest were passive. The rest probably didn't particularly like Sadeas, but they supported his style of government and cultural values which were the status quo.

I don't think Sadeas' idea is a straight up free for all. It's a free for all with certain rules and limits. I think he wants cut throat competition between people of equivalent level. For example, High Prince vs. High Prince, competition of nobles with each other within each High Prince's lands, etc. What he does not want is for the order of the king or high princes to be challenged. So, he wants to put in place a system of values where whatever else happens the High Princes enforce the king's authority and therefore Alethkar stays one united kingdom. I'm not sure that this is a realistic system, but it seems like what he wants. Eradicating opposition could be good for Alethkar so long as you don't care about human rights concerns. For example, it was good for the Mongols to eliminate all possible challengers. It secured them a lengthy period of time ruling most of the content of Asia. Not good for anybody else, but good for them. I agree it's not so simple as one or the other total winning or losing. But Sadeas definitely came out ahead both long term and short term if you think about it in any terms other than the moral high ground. Most high princes were still on Sadeas' side in WoR. Sadeas' attitudes and values were much more in common with the other High Princes than Dalinar's. They didn't like Dalinar because of his weird honor values and they distrusted him because of his past as the Blackthorn. The only advantage that Dalinar got out of it was that he got Elhokar on his side. But even Elhokar couldn't act against the High Princes if 9/10 were on Sadeas' side. Dalinar beat Sadeas best political scheme of making him a martyr because of Kaladin's intervention on the battlefield. It forced Sadeas into backup plans which relied less on politics and more on assassination. I don't have my copy of WoR with me at the moment, but going off the Coppermind summary of Ch. 50 it seems like this was more of Sadeas trying to play games with Adolin and get him to make a mistake. There is a WoB that says Sadeas was loyal to the throne. I don't think he genuinely wanted a civil war.

In terms of the knife, I also think the repeat stabbing is forcing more healing and stormlight draining. At least the way I see it: Leaving the Knife in = Stormlight is used to heal what it can, but stops draining when it can't heal the spot where the knife is. So leaving the knife in would drain much less stormlight. Or, alternatively maybe his body would grow alternate pathways around the knife and restore his mobility. Stabbing Repeatedly = Carefully timing the stabs to allow him to fully heal and then restab greatly increases the stormlight drain. It can drain him many times. It also allows the Fused to control precisely how long and how often the Radiant is mobile. If he's not good enough to stop the stabbing in the split second where he is mobile, then the fused kills him. If he is good enough, the Radiant is still not mobile enough to be a true threat. So, basically the Fused just gets a free chance to drain tons of stormlight. If the Radiant has backup, then yeah it's maybe not a great strategy. But the Fused knows there is no backup in this case.

Your mileage may vary on this, but I think understanding Laral's perspective could be a path to further character development for Kaladin. Let's look at what she's done: Starts as friends with Kaladin - their fathers doing a little matchmaking. Her father dies, and is replaced by Roshone - likely leading to trauma. Her mother, I believe, was already dead. She's now lost both parents and is now the ward of a stranger, who we know is generally a bad person. She is forced to become engaged to the son of the man who replaced her father. Roshone arranges this because he needs to tie his family into the rulership of Hearthstone. She's pretty much isolated at the manor and can only talk to Roshone and his family, who probably tell her all about how (Roshone thinks) Kaladin's father was an evil man who cheated her out of her inheritance. I think it's likely that unbeknownst to Kaladin and therefore us, but she probably fought back against this as much as she could at least early on. At some point, she decides there is no way for her to get out of marrying Roshone's son. She decides to come to terms with it and make the best of it. Yes, it means alienating herself from Kaladin and his family. It means that on the outside, she has to appear to be one of the family with Roshone. She can't publicly defy him because it won't be successful and because she would likely be punished. She has to live the life she has now. No use in futilely trying to resist. At least Roshone's son is close to her age. At least she's probably smarter and better than him and can probably control him once they both come of age. Her fiance dies in a hunting accident. Now, the one person she may have had at least some bond with is gone. She's forced to marry her creepy surrogate father. She's forced to make the best of the situation, or go insane. I couldn't imagine that kind of choice being forced on me. Some time passes, and she's now an adult and managed to establish herself as the real authority in Hearthstone. She's done well and the town is prospering. Kaladin suddenly appears, pitying her and also pissed off at her for all this. In Kaladin's mind she's done it all for selfish reasons, hung him and his family out to dry. And she gets royally pissed, because he understands absolutely nothing about it. Laral did everything she did because she had to, in order to survive. And she not only survived the extreme trauma that she was put through, but she has thrived. And she has done well not only for herself, but she's improved life for her whole village. Kaladin sees this as a negative because he still can't look past the surface level: she's a lighteyes so she must have cut him loose the instant it was inconvenient and she's been sitting in her ivory tower counting her money while others work ever since. Another thing I'm not sure Kaladin really knows is that his father did basically steal the money. So Laral has somewhat of a legitimate beef against them. Kaladin started spouting off about how Shallan had such an easy life and she put him in his place. And he listened and learned to respect her for it, because once she opened his eyes to it he could see what she'd been through. I think we're going to see a repeat with Laral here. He's going to suddenly realize that far from living in the life of luxury, she's basically been living through a psychological horror movie. He just hasn't had that conversation with her yet. And when he does - it may help him understand that lighteyes are just people. He may learn a way to deal with his grief and pain. He admired Shallan's ability to just pretend the pain didn't exist, but he couldn't do that. I think Laral will teach him her way of surviving trauma - to hold it at bay and slowly chip away when you can and undermine the people who are abusing you until suddenly you have the upper hand.

Totally valid thoughts. I agree this stuff is a major hangup for Kaladin. What you've described is totally how I think Kaladin sees her right now. My personal belief is that Kaladin is seeing her through his anti-lighteyes lens. If we saw her side of things, we would realize she was forced to do a lot of those things against her will. Allowing Tien to go serve was something even Amaram opposed. As a young girl at the time, she probably didn't have enough influence yet to stop it. I'm sure she would have wanted to. She had to publicly say that she agreed with Roshone's actions because she has to present the public image that she's in full lockstep with Roshone. She can't undermine him, or they both lose power and authority. If she had discussed it in private and felt she could trust Kaladin, she would probably tell another story of how things are much more complicated than just agreeing/disagreeing. I think there could be a sequence between Kaladin and Laral similar to Kaladin and Shallan - where he realizes he's always assumed the worst from her and she tells him in no uncertain terms that he's being an idiot and she's a person too who tries to do her best but that sometimes has negative side effects. But that's just my theory, reading between the lines. I think this could easily happen, or could easily not happen. I think after today's chapter and learning that Kaladin had another short lived relationship probably killed by him not dedicating any time or energy to it, I'm almost starting to buy into the forever single Kaladin theory. I think he either figures something out about this stuff in RoW, or he fully gives up. It seems like the pieces are there for him to make progress - Laral and possibly Tarah in proximity to scold him over his past mistakes and maybe teach him a thing or two about being a more well rounded person.

Just saying, still doesn't preclude her pursuing Kaladin. It didn't preclude her from pursuing a marriage to Roshone... She did what was necessary for her own political power and what was likely best for her town/people. She doesn't want to be rescued, which I love too. But this would not be her being rescued by Kaladin. This would be her hunting him down like a prize boar. It may never happen, but it wouldn't be out of character for her to see the opportunity with Kaladin as a single, powerful and high ranking man that she has a connection to and go for it. She might sleep in a separate bedroom from him after it's done, but it would make total sense. Think of the good she could do with the resources he has, but doesn't use. Of course, as competent as she is she may just rise up on her own and get noticed too. Another real possibility is that Lirin may die in the early parts of RoW. I could easily see the two of them at least getting a closer or repaired friendship as they both deal with grief. It would be a lot like the lesson Shallan taught Kaladin - when he understands someone has felt the same things he has but reacted totally differently, that is when he can really learn and grow as a person. And Laral deals with her grief much more healthily than Shallan. Both have suffered similar trauma - loss of both parents and really messed up home life.

There are practical reasons for her to pursue him too. He's rich, powerful and has a higher rank than her now. In terms of sheer practicality it's logical for her to pursue him even if she has absolutely no sexual or romantic desire for him. She'd be happy if he was off flying around trying to save the world while she stayed home and ran what she saw as her estate and lands. I doubt she has/had much romantic love for Roshone. She would at least have to have more respect for Kaladin as a person. And who knows, if she tries to get him to marry her for political/financial reasons, then maybe they'd develop a romantic relationship too. The biggest barrier to this kind of thing is Kaladin himself. I don't see him as the type who could get married for something other than what he considered genuine love. That's why I think there's a decent chance there will be at least some movement on this ship. But then, I like this kind of thing.

I have read it a few different times, but I don't have it memorized. It's hard to read and figure out exactly what all your arguments are about all possible topics. I also feel like a lot of the conclusions you've reached are based on fairly weak evidence. I don't think that's your fault, it's just that there's not much solid information out there for any of us to go on and you're trying to work with what you've got. I mostly come to this thread because I think it's fun to speculate about this stuff and talk back and forth with other people who are interested. So, I respect the work you've put in, but I don't take it as gospel. I'm just going to engage in direct conversation about what I'm interested in and what topics people are talking about recently. If it's something you've already covered and I've missed it, either copy/paste your original argument back at me if you're interested in discussing it or just ignore me and move on with stuff you'd rather talk about. I won't be offended and hopefully I don't bother you too much that way either. Just for example, I consider the WoB you quoted about why Venli should have a POV in all parts of the book to be pretty weak evidence. That WoB is from 2016, prior to the release of OB. Sanderson has changed his approach to these kinds of things in each book, at least slightly. For example, in OB, Dalinar (21%) did not have nearly the page count that Kaladin (33%) or Shallan (31%) had in their respective books. Adding in flashbacks, he gets closer but still lags behind. In RoW, Sanderson chose to make both Eshonai and Venli as flashback characters while he had always before had only one character. We know that in 2016 he had not yet made that decision. If he had chosen to stick with only Eshonai flashbacks, would Eshonai have made an appearance in each Part? That seems pretty unlikely. There are a ton of factors in the equation there that mean you can't just take that quote as straight up gospel truth. Now, I will also say I do believe Venli is most likely in Group 1. But we don't know that as a fact. We know she has a large role in this book. I think it's plausible that she could be group 2, with additional POVs coming in the Interludes. Her POVs were split between the main story and interludes in OB so it's reasonable they might be again, though again to be fair, it's less likely. Right now there isn't an obvious choice of who would be the main through line interlude character. Always before it's been someone who is kind of a frenemy and future ally to our main heroes with Szeth, Eshonai, and Venli. I'm not sure who fits the bill this time around, other than Venli. Maybe it will take a turn and go to Moash who is a one time friend moved to frenemy-ish and likely future full fledged enemy long term. So all this is to say that there's no strong evidence that Adolin and Shallan are the two characters that make up group two. There's proof they will go together on a mission to Shadesmar with at least one other person who may or may not be one of the listed characters from the groups, if the Amazon blurb is accurate. I think it's reasonable to assume both are in the same group based on that and I think it's reasonable to say they're not in Group 3. But they could easily still be in Group 1, especially if my theory about Adolin is correct. I don't think the characters who are in the same "group" have to always be together throughout the book. For example in WoR, you would probably say that Shallan, Adolin, Dalinar, and Kaladin were in the same "group" but Shallan and Kaladin had their extended sequence off together after the assassination attempt on Dalinar. The mission to Shadesmar could be similar. It's also easily possible that the rest of Group 1 would accompany them to Shadesmar. We have established that Group 3 is significantly less important than the other two groups, so I think one character from that group could have only a few POVs. I think Szeth is too important to the overall story and to what is likely to happen in SA5 to be so far out of the picture that he isn't in any of the groups or a major interlude character. Szeth may only have one or two POVs, but I think he'll be on screen more often through Dalinar POVs. My somewhat unpopular theory is that Sanderson doesn't base the list of who makes it on his outlines on POV page count. He bases it on plot importance and character development for a particular character. Basically, his outline is about how he accomplishes the things he is trying to accomplish in the book. If you look back at the outline for OB it doesn't make sense at all if you compare page count and appearance in various parts of characters vs. his outline. So, this is why (imo) Szeth may have relatively few of his own POVs in RoW but will achieve significant character development and will be setting things in motion that are important for the overall plot of the series, mostly seen through Dalinar's eyes. His importance to the overall series plot and the character development he will experience qualify him for an individually named character slot (imo). For the G1/G2 characters, also a fair point. I guess there are three possibilities for how the names were chosen - list only group one as they are the "lead" group, list only the most important POVs regardless of group, or list only characters who actually have POVs in that part regardless of group.

Yeah, fair enough about the Group 1/Group 2 thing. But, the reverse side of it is also true. Only 5 characters are listed, but there are a total of 7 between Groups 1 and 2. So, if the listed characters are a mix of Groups 1 and 2 (which I agree is possible), then who are the other two characters? Who knows how he chose to break it down. It would make sense to me if he simply chose to list the 5 Group 1 characters since their plot arc is most important to the overall story and main arc of the whole book and left the Group 2 characters unlisted. But, it would also make sense if he chose the 5 characters he felt were most significant in Part 1 regardless of their "Group". Either way, Shallan and Adolin as Group 2 is still not confirmed. For example, if you assume Adolin does count (which despite my theory, should probably be the default position) it's possible that Shallan and Adolin will be accompanied by Navani and Jasnah to Lasting Integrity, Lirin fading out or dying off early as the 5th Group 1, and with Kaladin and Venli staying behind as Group 2. Maybe Jasnah is the minor Group 1 character who just exists to port them back and forth to Shadesmar at pre-arranged times, with Adolin, Navani, Shallan, and Venli, Kaladin and Lirin make up a philosophical Group 2 in Urithiru doing surgery for most of the book. We probably know 5 of the 7 Group 1 and Group 2 characters, but that's it.

I think some of this is right. Killing the prisoners wouldn't line up with Moash's normal motivations. He would probably kill lighteyes randomly as sort of class warfare, but I couldn't see him killing two tied up darkeyes prisoners. I don't know that there's reason to suspect that Malata is on Odium's side though either. Maybe a Fused has bonded a dead shardblade and killed the prisoners to keep that secret? That would likely be a new development since this will be the first desolation where dead shardblades exist in significant numbers. As to why Moash wants to be captured I have a different suspicion. I think it's a mission from the Fused. They want Moash to be captured and go to Urithiru, where he can try to kill Ash and Taln with the dagger. Odium probably knows their location.

I'm in, I've been behind this ship for a while. I think it could be a nice role reversal. If they do spend extended time together, Kaladin will be the one with the higher rank in society instead of Laral. She might learn to see his perspective a little more, gain a new appreciation for him. I think if it's going to happen, she has to make the first move. That, or Syl has to slap Kaladin to wake him up to it. I agree - Kaladin felt really bitter towards Laral up until their meeting in OB. But I think that afterwards, he was impressed by her and how she was the one truly running the town. It's one of those things with Kaladin where he picks up on what other people are doing, but doesn't really process what it means until later. It takes someone else (often times Syl) to point these things out to him. Like with Shallan, he clearly was into her by the end of WoR, but refused to do anything about it or even acknowledge that he even really respected her as a person until Syl forced him to acknowledge that he did like her and that he needed to try. I could possibly be down with a Kaladin/Venli ship, but would need to see how the characters interact before I go there. I'm open to it though.