agrabes

Yeah, really interesting idea. Totally would make sense if it's true. That said, I'm not sure I actually want it to happen. Somehow it makes the story seem sad if the Radiants can become addicted to Stormlight and get messed up like that.

Yeah - fair. I wasn't intending to make it seem sinister, but maybe less.. noble? If that makes sense. That what Shallan does with her drawings generally isn't a moral action either good or bad and she doesn't mean it to be. While what Renarin did here was intended to be a moral action.

Yeah, could be. But I guess my argument there is that Renarin's motivations are different. You see what Shallan does in tWoK and WoR - she makes drawings to inspire people to become better. But she does it for the most part because she is trying to get them to act in a certain way. Shallan shows these visions because doing it advances her own goals. She also thinks it's helping them become better, but that's not really her primary motivation. She's also being subtle and sneaky about it. She's not trying to show them they've been lying to themselves, she's just saying they could be different. Compare with Renarin - he shows Moash the image which is challenging lies with truth. Moash goes on and on about how no one can escape the pain and mundane difficulties of life and that no matter what happens life will always beat you down. Renarin fights that by showing an image of the truth - what could have been, revealing that all of what Moash has just said is a lie. He's just up front about it and direct. Who knows though. It's a cool idea, but I'm sure we'll learn more when the rest of the book is out. I think Sanderson does like this kind of idea of mental conflict - showing people your vision of the world and the future and forcing them to challenge it. Remember the end of the Wheel of Time and the final "battle of ideas" between Rand and the Dark One. Granted, that section was probably written or heavily outlined by Robert Jordan. But still, something he's been a part of.

I'd say the ending will be on par with the end of Mistborn: Well of Ascension. To be nice, I'll put it in spoilers, though I've always thought the idea of spoilering something from a 13 year old book to be a little odd. I think at the end of RoW, we'll have an ending where things are pretty bad, but there's still hope.

Personally, I think it's fine if Gaz stays mostly in the background. I think it's better that way. There just isn't enough room in the book to give Gaz a significant story arc of his own. I feel like Teft was given too much screen time in OB. I would have rather that was handled more like Gaz - a few lines sprinkled in that let us know things have been going on in the background that have led to growth. I like Teft as a character, just don't want his personal arc taking screen time. The only Bridge 4 members (other than Kaladin of course) I'd be interested in hearing about on their own are Rock and Rlain because they seem to have real interesting stuff to do that doesn't involve the main cast and plot. Plus, as a Lightweaver squire, Gaz is by nature going to keep himself hidden and out of view of the bridgemen. I think at some point there will be a scene where this becomes a minor point of tension between Kaladin and Shallan (how could you work with the guy who harassed me and sent me to certain death!), they will work it out and then the issue will be dropped. Gaz will stay a background character in Shallan's orbit.

My thoughts on Renarin - I think this may be more of a normal Truthwatcher kind of thing. We know that different orders have different "flavors" of abilities. Like the difference between Bondsmith and Stoneward tension. I think this may be the Truthwatcher's version of Illumination. It would fit with the order too. Lightweavers use Illumination to create illusions and distractions. Truthwatchers use Illumination to show the truth. In this scene, Moash is creating a lie and trying to convince Kaladin of something that isn't true with all his nihilistic BS. Renarin, as a Truthwatcher, is able to dispel the illusion, show Kaladin that it isn't the truth. He uses Illumination to show Moash the truth - that he could have been a good man and a hero if he had made better choices. That it was not inevitable that everyone ends up in endless pain and Moash could have chosen a different path. It hurts Moash, because he knows it's true that most of his pain and struggles are self inflicted and that's why we see him ask Odium to take the pain.

Moash was definitely trying to convince Kaladin to kill himself. First, he references the time in WoK when Kaladin nearly did decide to kill himself. He says that Kaladin had the right idea at that time. He then says that the only way for Kaladin to stop hurting is for him to stop existing. He then tries to force Kaladin to say out loud that he agrees with Moash that the only way is to go back to the cliff and jump. Moash says that he found a better way for himself - surrendering to Odium. But he says the only way for Kaladin is suicide. Having been close to someone that was suicidal as I'm sure many of us have, this is exactly the way they think. It's dangerous to even talk like this, to reinforce those kinds of thoughts in their heads. These ideas are wrong. But they can't see it, they can't think about anything else or put their life in perspective because they are in a bad place. So if anyone struggling is reading this, my message to you is remember who is saying these things in the book - an evil villain. A person who lies, who doesn't have your best interest in mind. Who has lost the ability to see the good, not by damage but by choice. Remember that things aren't as bad as they seem, that it's not all bad and that even if things are bad now, things can and will be good again. Break the cycle of bad thoughts in your mind. Remember the good times, remember that you have choice in your life to remove the bad. And seek help from a loved one and/or a professional.

Loved this chapter. I think it reveals a little of Odium's strategies and why certain things were feared by the Radiants. I was always a defender of Moash, but trying to convince a friend to commit suicide is a bridge too far even for me. But seeing what Moash did - I imagine this was a common strategy for Odium's forces. I'm surprised we didn't think of this earlier, though I guess someone could probably pull out a half dozen threads where someone did over the years. All the Radiants are broken in one way or another. So of course Odium, being a Shard based on emotion, is going to know exactly how to try to exploit that. A few whispers in the ear of a Radiant might leave them emotionally devastated and not capable of fighting at their best. I think we'll see stuff like this happening more often. It's already happened with Dalinar and Kaladin. Third time confirms it's an active strategy.

I think you're right that the book has to end on some kind of a low or bittersweet note. Here are a few thoughts of what I think might happen: - Shallan or Adolin or possibly both go down a dark path. Shallan was on the edge of losing herself completely in OB, seems to have brought herself back in early RoW, but is still unstable. She's struggling with a moral dilemma of whether or not it's ok to just go out and kill people who might be enemies. Could easily tip toward the "dark" side permanently or temporarily. Adolin's already killed one person in cold blood. He might kill more, or he might have learned from what he did before. - I think Kaladin will have a downward arc that resolves mid to late RoW with him swearing the 4th Oath. Or, he swears the 4th Oath early and by the time the end of the book comes around he realizes it's still not enough sending him back down. - I think there's a bit of a warning/foreshadowing going on with Dalinar. Kaladin points out how dangerous it is for them to be sending their only bondsmith out into combat, but that they feel they must do it because his ability to refill Stormlight is too powerful. I think Dalinar is going to take a close call, sidelining him for most of RoW and/or possibly die. I think we're going to see serious difficulties on the weeks-long journey back to Urithiru on the flying barge. It makes me think of BSG Season 1. The way they are relying on Dalinar so much to me means there's a good chance he will have to be sidelined. - Research by Navani/Jasnah shows that either the Sibling is permanently wounded and can no longer power Urithiru or Urithiru's ancient mechanisms are irreparably damaged. Navani must try to get Urithiru up and running using their inferior technology, which can't succeed at the same level as what was there in the past. Humans lose so much ground that they can't hold on to farmland outside Urithiru anymore and they must try to jury-rig something that allows them to grow crops in Urithiru again. There is mass hunger and starvation as the new fabrials don't work as well and the soulcasters have their limits. I'm not married to any of these ideas, just some interesting things that I think might happen.

This is an example of foreshadowing or something like it, yes. But it's of the type Sanderson usually uses. A character makes an observation in world. Later on we learn that this is a sign one of the Unmade was probably present. It's something that was directly, explicitly written on screen. Szeth hears a heartbeat at a party. Later on, we hear that there is an Unmade called Heart of the Revel who causes parties and manifests as a beating heart. To make it equivalent to this possible wine scene foreshadowing example would be something like Szeth meeting a random person a day before the feast who says to him "Sir, you are so beautiful you make my heart beat fast! Come revel with me at the King's feast tomorrow!" without any other references to Ashertmarn at all and then taking that to mean it's a hint that an unmade was present. Yeah - I think you're just diving too deep here. I don't think the 1:1 allegory works, since one wine was offered to Veil and 3 were offered to Shallan. If it really were intended to be a complete 1:1 allegory, you would have to see at minimum Radiant being "in control" when one of the wines was out. It just feels like you're trying to find meaning where none exists. Especially your last paragraph. It's all total speculation extrapolated from one short paragraph. Everything you said might be true, but there is a much more obvious and more likely explanation than the one you provided for each line. Brandon Sanderson is a great author and does a lot of amazing things with his books, but he doesn't pack in 5 layers of detail behind every line. It just doesn't seem like Sanderson's style to use this kind of poetic symbolism. I think it's just way more likely that Ialai is using the wines to talk indirectly about the Ghostbloods. There are already two layers that are almost certainly there: the actual discussion of the wines themselves and the indirect references to the Ghostbloods. It seems a bit much to add additional layers of meaning to the scene. But who knows, maybe you'll be right in the end. That's the thing about foreshadowing, it's only obvious after the fact!

I think you are mostly correct about how I feel about this, with the exception that Sanderson does make remarks directly to readers, but only if they are not related to plot elements of the story. He only makes meta-commentary directly to the readers, not commentary about plot. I felt this was unrelated to the topic we were discussing so I didn't bring it up originally. You haven't provided any example of foreshadowing being used by Brandon Sanderson in a way similar to this wine scene. In this scene, the reader must draw the conclusion that Sanderson is referencing something about his characters that is totally unrelated to what has happened on the page. I just don't think he does things like that. I think you're diving too deep, looking for connections that don't exist. But just for the sake of discussion, let's talk about what it might mean if it were really an allusion to the nature of Shallan's personalities or foreshadowing for her future. I still don't think it lines up with what you are saying: Clear Wine: A clear and sweet wine. Made by carefully removing all rinds from the berries to "reveal what was truly inside." Veil drank this wine. But, the wine doesn't align with Veil's personality. Veil is not sweet. Veil is not "clear" - she is the thief in the night, she is the rogue. She hides herself, the opposite of being "clear" - the opposite of being open and truthful. The only way I could see this being associated with Veil is that Veil does not make any pretenses about who she is as a person, she doesn't "keep up appearances" the way Shallan does. I think you are ignoring everything else and just using this to support your earlier conclusion that Veil is the hidden, true personality like Ialai claims that clear is the wine's true color. For later, note that this wine is not defined to be noble or strong. If this wine truly is associated with Veil, then I think the intent of the discussion is to say that Veil's characteristics are a true part of who Shallan is, but not the most important or substantive part because this wine is not noble or strong, not what Ialai says people should seek out. Orange Wine: A bland orange wine in a finely labelled bottle, with a sour aftertaste. A favorite of people who want to look better than what they are. Looks good, but is actually bad. Will eventually be discarded for something that is truly noble and strong. Shallan drinks this wine. I could say this partially fits. Shallan is not bland, we've seen enough from her to know that she's far from a boring and bland person. But we do know that she is someone who likes to keep up appearances and paper over her faults. If this wine truly is a reference to the current Shallan personality, then I think it's saying that the part of her that wants to fit in and keep up appearances will be discarded. She won't go along to get along anymore and she will be more of a true agent of change and advocate for her self and her own interests. Blue Wine: Described as wonderful and perfect. Very rare. Ialai claims it's the last of its kind, while Shallan says that she is probably wrong about that - she's just given up the search for more. Ialai does not offer it to Shallan. This is most likely the "noble and strong" vintage that Ialai says people should try to go after. The reason she doesn't offer it to Shallan is because of the subtle discussion they're having - Ialai is implying that as a Ghostblood operative, Shallan is not worthy of something noble and strong. If we assume this is some kind of reference to Shallan's personalities, I think it's referencing that this noble and strong personality is what Shallan should strive for, but doesn't have currently. Ialai saying this is the last of the vintage and it can never come back represents the bad parts of Shallan who say she should give up and not try to get better. Shallan''s comment that Ialai should keep searching represents hope - that even if it seems impossible you should still strive for the goal of becoming who you want to be. If it is foreshadowing a change in Shallan's personalities, then I think it represents the main Shallan personality becoming stronger and less reliant on her alter-egos. Rather than "Shallan" disappearing and becoming "Veil", it represents "Shallan" growing as a person and getting stronger while still remaining herself. Horneater White: Described as Invisible and Deadly. Offered to Shallan, but she doesn't take it. I believe this wine represents the moral dilemma that Shallan is having throughout the scene with Ialai and the lead up to it. She is struggling with the idea of whether or not it's OK for her to be an assassin. A part of her feels like Dalinar is too moralistic and stuffy which stops him from getting important things done. But she also feels that Dalinar has a point about not killing people just because it's easier. She knows that her Lightweaver powers would make it really easy for her to just kill people to get them out of the way, but she's still kind of thinks it's wrong. Veil is totally in favor of going the assassin route, while Radiant is totally opposed. The "Shallan" personality seems split - sometimes in favor, other times opposed based on circumstances. I think the fact that Shallan rejected the wine (and the other events of the scene) represent that Shallan and all the personalities have decided that it's not right for them to be assassins. Conclusion: Shallan should not strive to be like Veil. Veil is not the true Shallan, but only one part of the true Shallan. The main "Shallan" personality is challenged to grow and become better, more noble. Shallan will ultimately decide that being an assassin is not right and will listen to Dalinar and obey the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. Sanderson's style is to have a huge master planned multi-part epic with great foreshadowing and hints woven throughout all his books that you could look at and later see he'd planned for certain events all along. Yes, he does put in occasional meta-commentary, or use overarching themes where his story is trying to get across a deeper message about life or a moral lesson. But he doesn't use symbolism like this - he doesn't have Character A say something in Character B's presence that is not about Character B and assume that we as readers to infer that there actually is a symbolic reference being made about Character B. Your spoilered example quote doesn't really land for me. It's nothing at all like this wine example. In your example, it's a character making a mostly joking off handed comment about what he should do, which he later then does. That just logically follows - it's the kind of thing you would expect him to do if he could based on what we know about his personality. It's a case of true foreshadowing. Sanderson is putting it out there that the character thinks about that kind of stuff, making it a cool payoff when he later actually does it. The wine scene isn't foreshadowing. It isn't showing us more detail into how Veil/Shallan/Radiant see themselves (none of them consider the possibility that Ialai's comments have anything to do with them) or insight into how other characters see them (Ialai doesn't know or even suspect that Shallan has DID). I think one or the other is required if we are going to consider this foreshadowing. The scene where Mraize says he thinks Veil is the "true" personality -could- be foreshadowing, because it is laying out a possibility for us to consider as readers based on the opinions of characters. Or, it could be a red herring. We don't know what will happen yet. The wine scene is not because it is not showing us the opinion of a character nor is it showing us an example of something happening to give us a hint of something similar possibly happening in the future. The other examples you are talking about are much different. Those are things like thematic references or possible 4th wall breaking, they are "meta" type commentary about art, fandom, and other topics. They are not secret messages telling us what will happen in the plot or hints toward a character's secrets.

Right. My interpretation was that Ialai realized (or at least suspected) based on their conversation that Shallan was not fully bought in on the Ghostblood thing. So, she figured there was no harm in telling her a secret she wanted to keep from the Ghostbloods. If Shallan is a true believer, then she or another Ghostblood would have found it anyway. If Shallan is not, then she's managed to save whatever secret it is and possibly sowed discord between Shallan and the Ghostbloods. I believe the wine conversation was both a test and just an expression of complete exhaustion and hopelessness in fighting the Ghostbloods. Then, once she'd done that she decided to tell Shallan a secret with the look through my rooms comment. It might be a cool mystery if the wine conversation was hints at other Ghostblood or Sons of Honor members. I just don't think it is.

Yeah, I noticed that was Lightspine's theory - that Ialai is making vague references to various people she knows about. It's possible, could be a fun plot if it happens. I just don't think it's likely based on the context of the conversation. Like I said - I think she's becoming less and less subtle in telling Shallan "I'm pretty sure you're a Ghostblood agent sent to kill me. So just get it over with." Right - but to me that doesn't make sense. For him to be making a symbolic reference, it would have to be tied to something in world. That's not his style - he doesn't write in symbolism that we as readers are supposed to interpret as a message from him (Brandon Sanderson) to us, the readers. If he is giving a hint or symbolic message, it's always contained within the story - from one in world character to another. So it doesn't make sense that Ialai would be doing things intended to symbolize the qualities of Shallan's personas because she doesn't know they exist. The only way this makes sense is if someone who is clued in such as Hoid, Mraize, or others with deep cosmere knowledge and personal knowledge of Shallan herself told Ialai to make these references in this order. Then it would be a message from that character to Shallan. I don't think there are other examples of Sanderson using that kind of symbolism meant only for readers, but if you know of some I would be interested to hear.

I think you have to consider the context of the discussion. Ialai immediately believes that Shallan was sent by the Ghostbloods to kill her. Her whole conversation is about trying to force Shallan to admit it while gauging her character. I don't think there's hidden meanings. Doesn't mean there couldn't be, but I don't think so.

I don't think there was any. In both cases (both of the wines Shallan drinks), Ialai is trying to hammer home that she knows Shallan isn't who she says she is. The symbolism was that Ialai knows she's there on behalf of the Ghostbloods. I don't think you can say there's any symbolism or meaning tied to Shallan and her personas/alters unless you can say that Ialai knew they existed. Clear wine = Ialai knows there is subterfuge going on - the symbolism being that the wine was specially processed to remove the color and hide its true nature the way the Ghostbloods hide themselves. Orange wine = Ialai taking a shot at the Ghostbloods. Saying that hiding your true nature (the wine is orange/sweet but its true nature is its sourness) and trying to gain power through sneaking around is inferior to openly wielding power and being honest about yourself and your intentions. Blue wine = Ialai saying that the blue wine is the truly good thing - being open about what you are and what you stand for. Not allowed for sneaky Ghostbloods. Horneater white = Ialai directly says - this is you, a Ghostblood operative. Silent and deadly.

I think this was revealed to be Ialai suspecting Shallan as a Ghostblood agent. So this section with the wines was about her saying "yes, I know you're secretly a Ghostblood assassin here to kill me. Get it over with." I don't think it was intended to be saying that Ialai knew she was actually Shallan Davar and that Shallan is suffering from DID.

Late to the party - but I love this cover. I'm not really analyzing it for possible plot elements, just saying I think it's an awesome piece of art.

In the end of OB, she also points out that he refuses to be intimate with Veil. I think she tells him off screen in the falling action of OB. In the Ch. 7 scene - I don't think this is a good sign for their relationship personally. Maybe Adolin's just a super saint who is fine with his wife being three different people in the same body. Maybe he was only asking because he wants to treat each one different. But to me that read as him not totally liking the others and in some ways not considering them his wife. I think if you add his reaction there with the "refuse to be intimate" comments, I think what you see is that Adolin really only considers the "Shallan" persona to be his wife. The others, he treats as either separate people who he may be friends with but doesn't love as a spouse, or as unhealthy expressions of her mental illness that he wants to help her manage. I'm also viewing this through my own personal lens here, but the idea that I would have to wait to figure out who is behind her eyes before I can hug my wife is just heartbreaking. I think we'll get more clues into how Adolin feels about all this fairly soon. I think it's interesting too the way they talk about killing Ialai. I think that's going to be a battle between them - Adolin seems to be kind of feeling bad about killing Sadeas now. Or at least, feeling that it's not something they should do only if it's an absolute last resort, while Shallan (particularly Veil) seems to be saying they should start doing a lot more of these extra-judicial killings.

Yeah, appreciate the discussion but I think it's best we drop it there. I was trying to think of something else to say, but couldn't think of something that wouldn't end up launching into more discussion. So, uh, I guess for lack of a better closer best of luck and I hope we each gave each other something to think about.

In terms of the use of the word upset, I think it doesn't mean just one thing. If a person I cared about were in a car crash I would be upset in a lot of ways. First, yes concerned for their safety. Second, sad for the negative impact the car crash has on them. Third, experiencing my own emotional distress because a serious negative event has happened to someone close to me. And yes, if I found out that a friend had developed a serious mental illness, I would feel very similarly for them. I'm in favor of removing stigma (i.e. false negative views) about things like mental illness. I'm not in favor of removing factually accurate negative views (i.e. those backed by mainstream mental health professionals) of mental illness. By saying that an action is damaging and disrespectful, you are saying that it is immoral. Unless you feel that it is not morally wrong to be damaging and disrespectful to someone else. Saying that anyone who feels the way that I do must reflect internally on their opinions and address them is also indicating that you believe our opinions are morally wrong and we must change ourselves to comply with what is right. You seem like an intelligent and well intentioned person. But I don't agree with you on this. I would indeed be comfortable with saying that it is not morally wrong to dislike reading a novel that is written from the perspective of any marginalized group or any group at all, so long as that dislike is not motivated by racism, bigotry, or other similar reasons. I don't believe that a lack of desire to read a book written from the perspective of a marginalized group is by definition a sign of hatred for or bias against that group. I think as society we understand this easily when we think about it in reverse. It's easy to understand that a person of color may not like to read a book that's all about white people because it's hard for them to see themselves in the story, it's hard for them to relate to something that they don't feel a cultural tie with. Some will like it, others won't. And that's totally fine. And it's also totally appropriate that we as society are trying to develop media for everyone so that everyone can read a book and find someone like themselves in it that they can relate to. But, it's also totally appropriate that the reverse is true - someone who represents that majority, the non-marginalized, may not be able to relate to those who aren't part of their cultural group and may not want to consume that media because they can't relate to it. And that's also OK, or it should be. I don't want to sidetrack this into a discussion about what is right or wrong about how society views mental illness or other controversial topics. I'm asking, please don't tell people they are bad people for being sad that a favorite character has been inflicted with a serious mental illness which has changed their personality and has caused them to lose the ability to know their own identity. In return, we shouldn't judge Shallan beyond acknowledging what is written in the books about her condition. Interesting to know that. I'll try to keep that in mind as I read further and as I reread the rest of the series before RoW. I think it might make things feel "better" to me if I read the whole book starting with the idea that she already has this condition.

While you seem to be someone with much more knowledge of this topic than me and much more capability to understand what is "right" and "wrong" about portraying someone with a mental illness, I will say that I feel like this is also part of the issue for me. Even from someone with no real knowledge on the topic, it feels like it's not being done quite right. Sanderson himself has said he wasn't sure if he was going to go this route and only decided to do it for OB. I think we are supposed to take it that Shallan has had DID since her childhood trauma. But her behavior changed significantly in OB, when Sanderson decided he was going to take her the DID route. So it feels like she only developed the condition in OB, even if that's not supposed to be the case. Maybe a professional or someone who actually has experience with the condition would say this is totally normal, but it doesn't feel right to me. I think if he had decided and committed on day one that she always had DID and wrote her consistently that way, even if it wasn't completely accurate to the medical diagnosis of the condition, it would feel a lot more right to us. At least, it would to me.

I also felt pretty similarly, but kind of got over it. It's sort of like reading GRRM - your favorite character died and it feels terrible and you may even take a break from reading the series for a while. For me, I put down GRRM's series for 10 years after reading the Red Wedding. I'm glad I picked it up again though, the books are good and it's much easier to deal with the deaths when you know they are coming. Shallan was probably my favorite character going into this. I do think that while Shallan will probably never again be the same Shallan of WoK and WoR, she will get back to being closer to who she was. For me, I just pretty much had to accept that we're dealing with something different now. Before, reading Shallan's story and how she advanced her goals and dealt with her challenges was one of my most favorite things in reading the books. Shallan is no longer toward the top of my list for favorite characters, reading her chapters are more like some kind of psychological study - how is she doing mentally and how is that impacting the way she acts? How do we tease out what her actual goal is now and is that a good goal for her to have? Shallan has a mental illness which has completely changed who she is as a person in the middle of a book series. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to find that upsetting and off putting. Having a mental illness of this severity is not something that should lead to Shallan being demonized, but it's not something that should be celebrated either. It's natural to be upset if someone you care about develops a serious illness - the same applies for a fictional character you like. If Shallan is ultimately able to manage her illness in a healthy way as defined by mental health professionals, then maybe her character provides a good role model for those who suffer with her same afflictions. But please don't tell someone they are a morally bad person because they are sad and upset that their favorite character has had a major and likely permanent personality change caused by a mental illness. Most of us read these books and participate in this community because we love the story and characters, not because we're interested in encouraging people with rare mental health conditions. I hope anyone who does have DID is able to find a way to get as healthy as they can through appropriate doctor's care and support from friends and family. If I'm in contact with someone who has DID in real life, I'll do my best to be a good influence in their life. But that's separate from what I want to read about for my own personal enjoyment. It's not morally wrong to dislike reading from the POV of a character who has DID or any mental illness of any type.

I'll assume I'm one of the people being called out here, since I did defend Gavilar's actions in the first thread about the Prologue. Seeing that I was pretty much the only person who felt that was appropriate, during those discussions I went back and reread the prologue again and realized I had either skimmed or skipped over a lot of the worst stuff that Gavilar did. I went into my first read of the prologue with the thought that Gavilar must have some good reason for the way he was acting in the earlier excerpt we got from the prologue and so I was only looking for justification of why I was right. On the second read, I realized a lot of what he did was way over the line, much more so than I originally thought. This is a dangerous topic to discuss on the internet. People generally tend to want to think the worst of you, particularly if you're not advocating the absolute maximum support of people who may be victims. Honestly, if I had actually fully read what Gavilar did the first time around, I would have never made the comments that I did. I personally feel that we have not seen enough in the book to indicate that Gavilar is definitely abusive. I believe there's a high chance that he is/was, enough so that it was not right to try to argue a devil's advocate position that he wasn't so bad as everyone thought. But I don't believe that whether or not he was abusive can be determined for certain based on only one interaction in which there was no physical violence taking place. We only know one side of the story right now. Gavilar has a right to his own version of the events as long as they are not lies. He has a right to argue with Navani and express to her that he believes he is right and she is wrong. He has a right to be mad at her and frustrated with her. Expressing anger and frustration in an inappropriate way is wrong but does not necessarily mean he is being abusive. It's the way he does these things over time that would push inappropriate and hurtful behavior over the line to abuse. I'm going to leave it with this: I fully support what the OP said about seeking help in abusive situations and that we as society should help those who feel they have been abused. Perception is reality for situations like this - if you feel you've been abused, then you have. And yes, sometimes it takes an outside person to help you understand that what is going on is actually abuse. If you knew me as a person and understood my values through my day to day actions, you would understand that I am not someone who wants to enable abuse. I simply believe that domestic abuse is an extremely complicated topic. Sometimes it's open and shut, good and evil. But many times it is not that simple. I appreciate the OP's call out because I think it's important to express that message, but I don't think any good can come of having any further discussion about this, so I'm going to leave it there.

i'm not totally sure how I feel about that line. I agree it's not a romantic sign. I definitely took it as.. there's something wrong here. It almost felt like Veil/Radiant insulting "Shallan". I said in the other thread I felt a bit better about Shallan's state after reading chapters 4 and 5, but this was one of the lines that to me says there are still serious problems. Obviously not being an expert in real life DID, my gut feeling is that the main "Shallan" persona needs to get stronger somehow. That she needs to get the idea that she "is" Shallan, but sometimes she lets herself be Veil or Radiant.