agrabes

Another interesting element to the Shallan personas- At the end of OB, a significant point is made that Veil is the one with bad taste in men (aka, the one who is interested in Kaladin). When we open up on her POV section in Chapter 2, Veil says Windrunners are annoying and suffocating goody two shoes. You have to think she's not too interested in Kaladin anymore. So, it seems there's been a shift in Veil's character traits. Was this something that just happened naturally, or did Shallan cause it to happen? It seems like one of three things happened: 1) Shallan intentionally modified Veil's personality to stop unwanted leering. 2) Shallan has just settled into her marriage and no longer has those lingering feelings of attraction so they no longer manifest in Veil. 3) The Veil persona itself can change its opinions over time. Either way, I think it's an interesting window into how these personas work.

Thanks for posting this, I don't usually check the Reddit discussion threads. I kind of got the same feeling from the scene in Ch. 2. The only thing I would add is that these comments from Sanderson and the real life Lyn are based on what we as readers know now. It might be that later on we'll see Kaladin do some emotional healing during RoW and be ready for a relationship in Book 5. Awesome post and you're totally right. Kaladin does have his failings, but from what we know all the women in his life so far have kind of expected him to come 70/30 and haven't tried to really understand his side of things. We know the most about his relationship with Shallan. I think in that case, it's partly his fault that while he does open up to her my memory of the scene was that he still kept certain secrets from her because at the time neither knew the other was a Radiant and were afraid of saying anything that might let that secret go. I think she really did make a genuine effort to understand him during that chasm scene. But afterwards, I think if you read between the lines, she feels guilty about having any kind of feelings for Kaladin. It's like a double taboo for her - not only is she already engaged to somebody else, he's from a lower social class and marrying Kaladin would result in financial ruin for her family. So, she tries to bury it, shifting it to her other personas and trying to act outwardly mean toward him so that people won't think she is into him. She does that mostly for herself and for Adolin's sake. So I don't totally blame her for that behavior in the same way as I would if it was just a straight up "courtship" between him and her. It's still not good, but she's in a conflicted situation so I cut her some slack. My pet theory with Tarah is that we only see Kaladin's side of the story there. She did ask him to leave his life as a soldier behind and come with her to her new job. But, maybe she was secretly hoping he would ask her to stay with him? It's not an uncommon plot device at least, whether it's something that would happen in the real world or not I'm not sure. If they meet up again, she might be like "Hey dummy, I really liked you and if you'd asked me to stay with you we might still be together." So here's hoping Kaladin finds the right one who is willing to meet him in the middle. It could be Laral and I think it would be really fun if they got together, but like I said above probably not in this book. Maybe they become friends again in this book though. She's stayed in the story so far, so it makes me feel like she still has a big role to play.

Well, yes and no. Those are the good parts of the Mongol Empire. The parts where they literally slaughtered the entire populations of cities, demanded tributes and killed all citizens of cities who refused to provide them were the bad parts. They would kill everyone who offered any resistance. They were strongly considering leveling all cities and killing all city dwelling people in the first areas of China they conquered to return them to the Steppe which they saw as the natural state. So, I guess if you ignore the mass murders they committed, then they were good. Even by the standards of their times, they were war criminals on a massive scale. They did good things too. But you have to keep them in context. You could be right on the civil war thing. I don't have WoR with me so I'll just leave it there. It doesn't seem right in my head canon but doesn't mean my head canon is right. There were only one or two on Dalinar's side. One or two might have been active allies for Sadeas, but the rest were passive. The rest probably didn't particularly like Sadeas, but they supported his style of government and cultural values which were the status quo.

I don't think Sadeas' idea is a straight up free for all. It's a free for all with certain rules and limits. I think he wants cut throat competition between people of equivalent level. For example, High Prince vs. High Prince, competition of nobles with each other within each High Prince's lands, etc. What he does not want is for the order of the king or high princes to be challenged. So, he wants to put in place a system of values where whatever else happens the High Princes enforce the king's authority and therefore Alethkar stays one united kingdom. I'm not sure that this is a realistic system, but it seems like what he wants. Eradicating opposition could be good for Alethkar so long as you don't care about human rights concerns. For example, it was good for the Mongols to eliminate all possible challengers. It secured them a lengthy period of time ruling most of the content of Asia. Not good for anybody else, but good for them. I agree it's not so simple as one or the other total winning or losing. But Sadeas definitely came out ahead both long term and short term if you think about it in any terms other than the moral high ground. Most high princes were still on Sadeas' side in WoR. Sadeas' attitudes and values were much more in common with the other High Princes than Dalinar's. They didn't like Dalinar because of his weird honor values and they distrusted him because of his past as the Blackthorn. The only advantage that Dalinar got out of it was that he got Elhokar on his side. But even Elhokar couldn't act against the High Princes if 9/10 were on Sadeas' side. Dalinar beat Sadeas best political scheme of making him a martyr because of Kaladin's intervention on the battlefield. It forced Sadeas into backup plans which relied less on politics and more on assassination. I don't have my copy of WoR with me at the moment, but going off the Coppermind summary of Ch. 50 it seems like this was more of Sadeas trying to play games with Adolin and get him to make a mistake. There is a WoB that says Sadeas was loyal to the throne. I don't think he genuinely wanted a civil war.

In terms of the knife, I also think the repeat stabbing is forcing more healing and stormlight draining. At least the way I see it: Leaving the Knife in = Stormlight is used to heal what it can, but stops draining when it can't heal the spot where the knife is. So leaving the knife in would drain much less stormlight. Or, alternatively maybe his body would grow alternate pathways around the knife and restore his mobility. Stabbing Repeatedly = Carefully timing the stabs to allow him to fully heal and then restab greatly increases the stormlight drain. It can drain him many times. It also allows the Fused to control precisely how long and how often the Radiant is mobile. If he's not good enough to stop the stabbing in the split second where he is mobile, then the fused kills him. If he is good enough, the Radiant is still not mobile enough to be a true threat. So, basically the Fused just gets a free chance to drain tons of stormlight. If the Radiant has backup, then yeah it's maybe not a great strategy. But the Fused knows there is no backup in this case.

Your mileage may vary on this, but I think understanding Laral's perspective could be a path to further character development for Kaladin. Let's look at what she's done: Starts as friends with Kaladin - their fathers doing a little matchmaking. Her father dies, and is replaced by Roshone - likely leading to trauma. Her mother, I believe, was already dead. She's now lost both parents and is now the ward of a stranger, who we know is generally a bad person. She is forced to become engaged to the son of the man who replaced her father. Roshone arranges this because he needs to tie his family into the rulership of Hearthstone. She's pretty much isolated at the manor and can only talk to Roshone and his family, who probably tell her all about how (Roshone thinks) Kaladin's father was an evil man who cheated her out of her inheritance. I think it's likely that unbeknownst to Kaladin and therefore us, but she probably fought back against this as much as she could at least early on. At some point, she decides there is no way for her to get out of marrying Roshone's son. She decides to come to terms with it and make the best of it. Yes, it means alienating herself from Kaladin and his family. It means that on the outside, she has to appear to be one of the family with Roshone. She can't publicly defy him because it won't be successful and because she would likely be punished. She has to live the life she has now. No use in futilely trying to resist. At least Roshone's son is close to her age. At least she's probably smarter and better than him and can probably control him once they both come of age. Her fiance dies in a hunting accident. Now, the one person she may have had at least some bond with is gone. She's forced to marry her creepy surrogate father. She's forced to make the best of the situation, or go insane. I couldn't imagine that kind of choice being forced on me. Some time passes, and she's now an adult and managed to establish herself as the real authority in Hearthstone. She's done well and the town is prospering. Kaladin suddenly appears, pitying her and also pissed off at her for all this. In Kaladin's mind she's done it all for selfish reasons, hung him and his family out to dry. And she gets royally pissed, because he understands absolutely nothing about it. Laral did everything she did because she had to, in order to survive. And she not only survived the extreme trauma that she was put through, but she has thrived. And she has done well not only for herself, but she's improved life for her whole village. Kaladin sees this as a negative because he still can't look past the surface level: she's a lighteyes so she must have cut him loose the instant it was inconvenient and she's been sitting in her ivory tower counting her money while others work ever since. Another thing I'm not sure Kaladin really knows is that his father did basically steal the money. So Laral has somewhat of a legitimate beef against them. Kaladin started spouting off about how Shallan had such an easy life and she put him in his place. And he listened and learned to respect her for it, because once she opened his eyes to it he could see what she'd been through. I think we're going to see a repeat with Laral here. He's going to suddenly realize that far from living in the life of luxury, she's basically been living through a psychological horror movie. He just hasn't had that conversation with her yet. And when he does - it may help him understand that lighteyes are just people. He may learn a way to deal with his grief and pain. He admired Shallan's ability to just pretend the pain didn't exist, but he couldn't do that. I think Laral will teach him her way of surviving trauma - to hold it at bay and slowly chip away when you can and undermine the people who are abusing you until suddenly you have the upper hand.

Totally valid thoughts. I agree this stuff is a major hangup for Kaladin. What you've described is totally how I think Kaladin sees her right now. My personal belief is that Kaladin is seeing her through his anti-lighteyes lens. If we saw her side of things, we would realize she was forced to do a lot of those things against her will. Allowing Tien to go serve was something even Amaram opposed. As a young girl at the time, she probably didn't have enough influence yet to stop it. I'm sure she would have wanted to. She had to publicly say that she agreed with Roshone's actions because she has to present the public image that she's in full lockstep with Roshone. She can't undermine him, or they both lose power and authority. If she had discussed it in private and felt she could trust Kaladin, she would probably tell another story of how things are much more complicated than just agreeing/disagreeing. I think there could be a sequence between Kaladin and Laral similar to Kaladin and Shallan - where he realizes he's always assumed the worst from her and she tells him in no uncertain terms that he's being an idiot and she's a person too who tries to do her best but that sometimes has negative side effects. But that's just my theory, reading between the lines. I think this could easily happen, or could easily not happen. I think after today's chapter and learning that Kaladin had another short lived relationship probably killed by him not dedicating any time or energy to it, I'm almost starting to buy into the forever single Kaladin theory. I think he either figures something out about this stuff in RoW, or he fully gives up. It seems like the pieces are there for him to make progress - Laral and possibly Tarah in proximity to scold him over his past mistakes and maybe teach him a thing or two about being a more well rounded person.

Just saying, still doesn't preclude her pursuing Kaladin. It didn't preclude her from pursuing a marriage to Roshone... She did what was necessary for her own political power and what was likely best for her town/people. She doesn't want to be rescued, which I love too. But this would not be her being rescued by Kaladin. This would be her hunting him down like a prize boar. It may never happen, but it wouldn't be out of character for her to see the opportunity with Kaladin as a single, powerful and high ranking man that she has a connection to and go for it. She might sleep in a separate bedroom from him after it's done, but it would make total sense. Think of the good she could do with the resources he has, but doesn't use. Of course, as competent as she is she may just rise up on her own and get noticed too. Another real possibility is that Lirin may die in the early parts of RoW. I could easily see the two of them at least getting a closer or repaired friendship as they both deal with grief. It would be a lot like the lesson Shallan taught Kaladin - when he understands someone has felt the same things he has but reacted totally differently, that is when he can really learn and grow as a person. And Laral deals with her grief much more healthily than Shallan. Both have suffered similar trauma - loss of both parents and really messed up home life.

There are practical reasons for her to pursue him too. He's rich, powerful and has a higher rank than her now. In terms of sheer practicality it's logical for her to pursue him even if she has absolutely no sexual or romantic desire for him. She'd be happy if he was off flying around trying to save the world while she stayed home and ran what she saw as her estate and lands. I doubt she has/had much romantic love for Roshone. She would at least have to have more respect for Kaladin as a person. And who knows, if she tries to get him to marry her for political/financial reasons, then maybe they'd develop a romantic relationship too. The biggest barrier to this kind of thing is Kaladin himself. I don't see him as the type who could get married for something other than what he considered genuine love. That's why I think there's a decent chance there will be at least some movement on this ship. But then, I like this kind of thing.

I have read it a few different times, but I don't have it memorized. It's hard to read and figure out exactly what all your arguments are about all possible topics. I also feel like a lot of the conclusions you've reached are based on fairly weak evidence. I don't think that's your fault, it's just that there's not much solid information out there for any of us to go on and you're trying to work with what you've got. I mostly come to this thread because I think it's fun to speculate about this stuff and talk back and forth with other people who are interested. So, I respect the work you've put in, but I don't take it as gospel. I'm just going to engage in direct conversation about what I'm interested in and what topics people are talking about recently. If it's something you've already covered and I've missed it, either copy/paste your original argument back at me if you're interested in discussing it or just ignore me and move on with stuff you'd rather talk about. I won't be offended and hopefully I don't bother you too much that way either. Just for example, I consider the WoB you quoted about why Venli should have a POV in all parts of the book to be pretty weak evidence. That WoB is from 2016, prior to the release of OB. Sanderson has changed his approach to these kinds of things in each book, at least slightly. For example, in OB, Dalinar (21%) did not have nearly the page count that Kaladin (33%) or Shallan (31%) had in their respective books. Adding in flashbacks, he gets closer but still lags behind. In RoW, Sanderson chose to make both Eshonai and Venli as flashback characters while he had always before had only one character. We know that in 2016 he had not yet made that decision. If he had chosen to stick with only Eshonai flashbacks, would Eshonai have made an appearance in each Part? That seems pretty unlikely. There are a ton of factors in the equation there that mean you can't just take that quote as straight up gospel truth. Now, I will also say I do believe Venli is most likely in Group 1. But we don't know that as a fact. We know she has a large role in this book. I think it's plausible that she could be group 2, with additional POVs coming in the Interludes. Her POVs were split between the main story and interludes in OB so it's reasonable they might be again, though again to be fair, it's less likely. Right now there isn't an obvious choice of who would be the main through line interlude character. Always before it's been someone who is kind of a frenemy and future ally to our main heroes with Szeth, Eshonai, and Venli. I'm not sure who fits the bill this time around, other than Venli. Maybe it will take a turn and go to Moash who is a one time friend moved to frenemy-ish and likely future full fledged enemy long term. So all this is to say that there's no strong evidence that Adolin and Shallan are the two characters that make up group two. There's proof they will go together on a mission to Shadesmar with at least one other person who may or may not be one of the listed characters from the groups, if the Amazon blurb is accurate. I think it's reasonable to assume both are in the same group based on that and I think it's reasonable to say they're not in Group 3. But they could easily still be in Group 1, especially if my theory about Adolin is correct. I don't think the characters who are in the same "group" have to always be together throughout the book. For example in WoR, you would probably say that Shallan, Adolin, Dalinar, and Kaladin were in the same "group" but Shallan and Kaladin had their extended sequence off together after the assassination attempt on Dalinar. The mission to Shadesmar could be similar. It's also easily possible that the rest of Group 1 would accompany them to Shadesmar. We have established that Group 3 is significantly less important than the other two groups, so I think one character from that group could have only a few POVs. I think Szeth is too important to the overall story and to what is likely to happen in SA5 to be so far out of the picture that he isn't in any of the groups or a major interlude character. Szeth may only have one or two POVs, but I think he'll be on screen more often through Dalinar POVs. My somewhat unpopular theory is that Sanderson doesn't base the list of who makes it on his outlines on POV page count. He bases it on plot importance and character development for a particular character. Basically, his outline is about how he accomplishes the things he is trying to accomplish in the book. If you look back at the outline for OB it doesn't make sense at all if you compare page count and appearance in various parts of characters vs. his outline. So, this is why (imo) Szeth may have relatively few of his own POVs in RoW but will achieve significant character development and will be setting things in motion that are important for the overall plot of the series, mostly seen through Dalinar's eyes. His importance to the overall series plot and the character development he will experience qualify him for an individually named character slot (imo). For the G1/G2 characters, also a fair point. I guess there are three possibilities for how the names were chosen - list only group one as they are the "lead" group, list only the most important POVs regardless of group, or list only characters who actually have POVs in that part regardless of group.

Yeah, fair enough about the Group 1/Group 2 thing. But, the reverse side of it is also true. Only 5 characters are listed, but there are a total of 7 between Groups 1 and 2. So, if the listed characters are a mix of Groups 1 and 2 (which I agree is possible), then who are the other two characters? Who knows how he chose to break it down. It would make sense to me if he simply chose to list the 5 Group 1 characters since their plot arc is most important to the overall story and main arc of the whole book and left the Group 2 characters unlisted. But, it would also make sense if he chose the 5 characters he felt were most significant in Part 1 regardless of their "Group". Either way, Shallan and Adolin as Group 2 is still not confirmed. For example, if you assume Adolin does count (which despite my theory, should probably be the default position) it's possible that Shallan and Adolin will be accompanied by Navani and Jasnah to Lasting Integrity, Lirin fading out or dying off early as the 5th Group 1, and with Kaladin and Venli staying behind as Group 2. Maybe Jasnah is the minor Group 1 character who just exists to port them back and forth to Shadesmar at pre-arranged times, with Adolin, Navani, Shallan, and Venli, Kaladin and Lirin make up a philosophical Group 2 in Urithiru doing surgery for most of the book. We probably know 5 of the 7 Group 1 and Group 2 characters, but that's it.

I think some of this is right. Killing the prisoners wouldn't line up with Moash's normal motivations. He would probably kill lighteyes randomly as sort of class warfare, but I couldn't see him killing two tied up darkeyes prisoners. I don't know that there's reason to suspect that Malata is on Odium's side though either. Maybe a Fused has bonded a dead shardblade and killed the prisoners to keep that secret? That would likely be a new development since this will be the first desolation where dead shardblades exist in significant numbers. As to why Moash wants to be captured I have a different suspicion. I think it's a mission from the Fused. They want Moash to be captured and go to Urithiru, where he can try to kill Ash and Taln with the dagger. Odium probably knows their location.

I'm in, I've been behind this ship for a while. I think it could be a nice role reversal. If they do spend extended time together, Kaladin will be the one with the higher rank in society instead of Laral. She might learn to see his perspective a little more, gain a new appreciation for him. I think if it's going to happen, she has to make the first move. That, or Syl has to slap Kaladin to wake him up to it. I agree - Kaladin felt really bitter towards Laral up until their meeting in OB. But I think that afterwards, he was impressed by her and how she was the one truly running the town. It's one of those things with Kaladin where he picks up on what other people are doing, but doesn't really process what it means until later. It takes someone else (often times Syl) to point these things out to him. Like with Shallan, he clearly was into her by the end of WoR, but refused to do anything about it or even acknowledge that he even really respected her as a person until Syl forced him to acknowledge that he did like her and that he needed to try. I could possibly be down with a Kaladin/Venli ship, but would need to see how the characters interact before I go there. I'm open to it though.

I personally think if we look at this it's showing at least a little evidence of my personal pet theory, which no one else really likes: Adolin isn't being counted as one of the characters in the Visualization charts. I personally think there's evidence of this for OB, but don't want to repeat all that stuff from earlier. We've got the title bar from the Tor preview chapters which says the Part One characters are Shallan, Kaladin, Navani, Venli, and Lirin. Though, we don't know for sure what this means in the context of the visualization charts. We know from what Sanderson has said that Group 1 will have four major characters and one very minor character. So - the 5 characters named line up perfectly with Group 1: four major characters and one minor. Where does this leave Group 2, Group 3, and Adolin? My theory: Group 3 is Dalinar and Szeth. We know Szeth is in jail. We know that he and Dalinar both have a relatively minor role in RoW. I think it's pretty highly likely that they are in Group 3. So, Group 2 leaves Jasnah, Adolin, and various slightly less important characters as possible members. Jasnah and Adolin as a pairing just makes no sense at all. There doesn't seem like a lot the two of them would need to do together. My theory is that Group 2 is Jasnah and Renarin. They will become closer together in RoW and have their own self-contained scholarly plot. This leaves Adolin out of the named slots in Sanderson's outline as usual. Adolin appears with Group 1, but is not counted as one of the POVs because as I theorized earlier he does not have his own plot. So far, up through Oathbringer he has never advanced his own goals or come up with his own original ideas, with the exception of his "Dalinar is going insane" plotline in WoK. He will still have a decent number of POVs though. His role in the story is to show us what Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin look like from the outside. Crackpot theory? Maybe. To tie it to the new info we've gotten in the past week: Group 1: Shallan, Kaladin, Navani, Venli, and Lirin with Adolin as an unlisted hanger-on. The main battle group working on the war and its problems. With Kaladin temporarily sidelined and working as a surgeon, I expect Lirin to appear a lot with Kaladin as they work together as surgeons in the early part of the book. Once Kaladin works through his issues, Lirin will stay behind in Urithiru. Shallan and Adolin break off for a short time to do the mission to Shadesmar with Teft or another windrunner, but return to the main group by the end. Navani leads the effort for fabrial development. Venli does the expected and fully breaks away from Odium, creating a new component to the war. Everyone ultimately works together against Odium in the main war effort. Group 2: Jasnah and Renarin work on the mysteries of Urithiru and Renarin's corrupted spren, occasionally assisting Navani with Fabrial stuff. Group 3: Dalinar and Szeth philosophizing across the bars of a jail cell. Szeth tries to convince Dalinar to let him go fulfill his crusade idea. Dalinar tries to convince Szeth that what he's done is wrong and he needs to atone for it and he needs to feel remorse. Dalinar pops in on other groups when they cross paths to do Bondsmith stuff.

I think it's a fair point and I want to be careful that I make clear that I believe there is a fine line between being very angry and upset with someone in a marriage or relationship that has gone bad and actual abuse. I went back and read it a second time and Gavilar comes across worse to me than the first time. My opinion still is that Gavilar is walking right on the line between bad relationship and abuse. I read it as him expressing anger and frustration in an unhealthy way. His behavior is something he should be ashamed of. He treats his wife in a way no one should be treated. The situation read to me as a marriage that has gone bad, with huge amounts of anger and frustration built up over the years and never properly dealt with. It's not just a one time lack of communication, it's what happens when you have a lack of communication for years which causes issues that then cause other issues and all of them are there boiling under the surface, ready to jump out at the slightest provocation. It read to me as Gavilar not caring about Navani's happiness, and Navani not caring about Gavilar's happiness. Navani says nasty things to Gavilar in that scene too. Gavilar just takes it way too far in response to relatively minor provocations from Navani. Both have a right to be angry with the other. Again - I reserve the right to completely reverse my opinion if we learn more about the situation and find out it's all because Gavilar is just a terrible and abusive person and it's completely not Navani's fault. But, just my opinion, I think this is going to be a situation where we find out that Navani has done something very hurtful to him in the past. Not that it justifies him being the way he is, but that makes you understand why and it changes the character flaw from "evil, abusive man" to "man who can't forgive and does terrible things because of it." You're forgetting the other, equally important lesson that humanity learned about war in the 20th century. The reason that France and Britain were so willing to pursue what is now called "appeasement" policies was because in their lifetimes they'd seen tens of millions of soldiers killed and nations bankrupted for absolutely no gain. I suppose if you were a communist you might like the results of WW1, but no one else did. The leaders at the time knew the extreme cost of war and felt that they should do almost anything to stop it. Obviously, their failure was that they didn't understand that the regimes in Germany and Italy were not like the rulers of the past. They weren't playing the same game - they only wanted domination and nothing else. I personally feel that the world could use a lot more people who remember the world before WW2. People who realize that not every situation will end up like that. If it does, then we need to stop it. But we shouldn't assume that will always happen. There have been countless wars and conflicts throughout human history. Only a small portion are genocidal wars of extermination. You provided a good quote about Odium's plan which I had forgotten. So, Odium's goal (or at least the goal he says, which could be a lie) is to destroy the world. I think a lot of us are forgetting that Odium and the Singers are not totally aligned. In fact, most of the Singers we see have almost as much distrust and dislike of Odium as they do the humans. This is why I don't think falling under their sway is all that bad. They're only going along with Odium so far (a pretty short time) because he gave them freedom. My own pet theory is that the Singers under Venli will split off and form their own 3rd faction, along with Nale.

Do we know that killing the Stormfather and shattering Cultivation would wipe out all life on Roshar? It would definitely mess up the environment, but not the same as killing all life. Also, it seems like from what we know in Elantris that just splintering the shard does not destroy its investure. It just severs it from the intelligence of main Shard and leaves it to sort go based on physics or whatever you want to call it in the Cosmere. I think that Humans and Singers would survive the death of the Stormfather and Cultivation, but it would be a very different life. Some Fused want to exterminate humans. But we also know some are gone mad with bloodlust. I always took that to be a sign of the crazy ones if they want nothing more than to kill. I think we are shown some who don't want to exterminate all humans. I guess the whole point being - we shouldn't assume that everyone and everything dies if Odium or the Singers win. And more importantly, we shouldn't assume that the loss of one small country will result in that fate. Accept the loss, retreat and consolidate forces at Urithiru. Fight when you can win, or you have no other choice. As for Gavilar/Navani - the reason he doesn't say so is because they're in a rocky marriage. Communication has broken down. Also - I don't think it would have forestalled the whole argument even if he had said it. She would have still been mad at him for shutting her out of his exciting secret plans and making her sacrifice her own goals in order to fulfill all of his more boring responsibilities for no good reason, or at least none he's willing to tell her. This kind of lack of communication is SUPER common in real marriages. It's easy for people to take the ones closest to them for granted. I've personally made this exact mistake and it's led to this same kind of misunderstanding. It feels totally realistic for Gavilar to have this flaw.

I think each person can decide for themselves what is meaningful. But they should think about it in concrete terms, not abstract. In other words - is it more valuable to defend the abstract idea of the country of Herdaz or the concrete objects of life and limb? Some people, knowing all the factors, may still choose to value abstract ideas over concrete ideas. But Lirin's whole point is each person needs to think about that, what it really means to sacrifice your life and possibly even the lives of your family and countrymen just so you can hold to a few cultural traditions or preserve a line on a map. To say the humans are now being treated roughly like the Parshmen used to be treated has not been shown in any of the excerpts from RoW. In Moash's POVs in OB (at least in my memory) we see that as the Singers first take over, they do put the humans to work. But for most of the humans, that's no different than what they were doing before. Working, in a career they had little choice over, without the ability to move around and go elsewhere. They make a point of showing in OB that the treatment from the Fused or leaders of the Singers is not all that different from the treatment they got from the Alethi Lighteyes. This makes sense because the Singers would have learned their leadership style from those Lighteyes. Lirin says in RoW Ch. 1 that they are keeping a close eye on refugees - which is a legitimate war time need. Those refugees could easily be enemy combatants. In fact, we're shown that some are. You also see that Lirin is still placed in a trusted position based on his skills and capabilities, despite being human. He doesn't have a Singer breathing down his neck. The threat of instant death is not everywhere for the conquered humans. It has not been shown that the Fused or any Singers have indiscriminately killed any humans, to my memory. They have only killed or harmed those who are involved with active rebellion or military resistance. It has also not been shown that Odium plans to wipe out all life on Roshar, nor has it been shown that the Fused are waging a war of extinction against the humans. This may be your personal theory, which is fine, but it seems most likely that Odium's only goal is to shatter Cultivation and then leave Roshar to shatter the other Shards. The Fused themselves may want to kill all humans (we don't even know if that's true or not), but they are a small minority of the Singers/Listeners/Parsh. It's pretty likely that if the humans are defeated militarily, the Singers would settle for being rulers over the humans and not continue a war to kill them all. I think it's definitely a valid interpretation of it, but I didn't get that from my read. I took it as him understanding the value of that stuff, but feeling that Navani is good at it and has it handled. Navani says they used to plot and scheme together, which to me says he knew the value of what she was doing for him. I think he's just so focused on whatever he is doing with the Heralds that he is neglecting her now and assuming she will just take care of all of it for him because she always has. Just another source and/or symptom of friction in their marriage.

I mean - think about things objectively. Does it matter who rules? It might, if one side or the other mistreats their people. But it might not. I don't get the sense from chapters released so far that the humans of Hearthstone are suffering under the singers' rule. It seems like life would have been better for the Herdazians if they had simply surrendered and lived under the rule of the singers. A whole lot less people would have been killed. The only cost is the loss of a few cultural traditions. It's one thing if they had a reasonable chance of winning the war, but they didn't. And that's what Lirin points out. For some people, fighting and death and destruction is good for its own sake. But I don't think that's an objective truth, or even a commonly held opinion in today's world. There's a difference between being a pacificist and wanting to fight only when it's meaningful. Personally, I would have said the Herdazians should have either submitted or fled to Urithiru where they could join the Radiants and fight in meaningful battles.

What is it that makes you think Sadeas has no goal, or is bad at politics? He is one of the best, if not the best politician in Alethkar. Sadeas basically has two goals: 1 - Establish and secure the Alethi monarchy. He wants Alethkar to be a united country with one ruler. He may not respect Elhokar (nobody does) but probably holds out hope for future children. 2 - Maintain the political and ethical environment that he personally advocates: Might makes right. All his actions are based on establishing the idea that Alethkar should keep its warlike nature and the values that Sadeas, Gavilar, and Dalinar used to unify the High Princes. He wants to keep Alethkar on the offensive, and prepare for their next war of conquest, ruthlessly eliminating all competitors. He believes the more honorable values that Dalinar promotes are a weakness. If Dalinar is allowed to make the Alethi more like him, then they could allow themselves to be killed by treachery. For Sadeas, it's better to kill the enemy and protect yourself and worry about your conscience after you've survived. Dalinar didn't get the better of Sadeas with the shardblade offer. He just got one thing out of Sadeas at huge cost to himself. Sadeas still got the better end of that deal by a long shot. A shardblade for a few thousand slaves that could be easily replaced was an easy trade for him. The bridge crews were worth much more to Dalinar than they were to Sadeas. Politically speaking, Sadeas won that conflict. The pattern of WoK and WoR was that Sadeas beat Dalinar every time in the political arena. It was in battle that Sadeas lost - usually because of Kaladin's unexpected intervention and use of Radiant powers that Sadeas didn't know about and therefore couldn't plan to accommodate. Sadeas was never going for a civil war, he was looking to eliminate Dalinar's influence on Elhokar and the High Princes and make himself the main influence on Elhokar. He wanted to do that without sparking a civil war, which you can see based on how his plans involved things like making Dalinar a martyr or assassinating him in enemy territory so it could be claimed as an act of war by the enemy.

Is it a bad thing that reading this whole prologue made me feel -less- bad about Gavilar than the original excerpt we got? When we read the excerpt, it was like Gavilar was being a jerk because he was probably a bad person and/or a sexist. Now, we know context. I feel like a lot of you are missing some key aspects here. First, we know that Gavilar is treating Navani the way he does because he's hurt and he doesn't trust her. Navani clearly says that Gavilar started acting like this after rumors started that she'd been unfaithful to him. He makes it clear that is what is motivating him. I don't think you can blame someone for being upset about that. I mean, it seems like they have probably had conversations about this and I wouldn't be surprised if Gavilar does believe that Navani has not cheated on him. But like he says, she keeps doing the things that make other people think she is unfaithful. How would you like it if you had to keep constantly defending your spouse against those kinds of accusations? Especially if his or her behavior is legitimately suspicious? That you might have believed she was faithful that first time, but if it keeps happening again and again you can't keep the doubts out of your mind. The Gavilar/Navani relationship reads to me like an argument between a married couple who know their marriage is on the rocks. Navani knows she has done some wrong too, she admits it to herself. I think it's reasonable to say that people can be nasty to each other when they love each other and have been hurt by one another. It doesn't make you a bad person to react badly when you're hurt. To me, this gives us a lot of context as to who Gavilar is as a person. He's someone who's playing the deeper game, he's focused on his goals and how he needs to meet them. He trusts Navani to cover for him on the regular kingly duties front, which is why he pushes all those responsibilities on her. He is trying to marry off his daughter for political gain to achieve his greater goals. He knows his son is incompetent and probably has plans in place to deal with that. He's not a particularly nice person, but he's not evil. I mean, he conquered Alethkar by military force... We already knew what kind of guy he was. He's someone who would have been considered a great man 500 years ago, but doesn't live up to today's moral standards. His biggest failure, imo, is that he doesn't let Navani and Jasnah in on things. He clearly trusts both and feels they are highly competent. If he were to let Navani in on what he's doing, I think she would happily run interference for him with the Alethi nobles. Jasnah might even be willing to have a loveless, political marriage with Amaram if she thinks it would serve the greater good. I wonder if the SA5 prologue (if it's from his perspective) will show his true thoughts during these arguments. I suspect we'll get his reasoning for why he won't let Navani in on this. Of course, now that I've said this we will learn Gavilar is even worse than we thought and I'll look like an idiot.

Yeah - could be that there are 10 forms of voidbinding. But, I don't think it's certain. That's a pretty old quote. He's said additional things since then that kind of indicate the 30 number may be outdated. For example, he's said that the number 9 is tied to Braize the same way that 10 is tied to Roshar. It could easily be that he just threw out the concept of 3/10/30 as a high level concept and maybe his original vision 10 years ago, but it may not be the final plan. That statement would require 10 surgebinding types, 10 voidbinding types, and 10 fabrial types. Like - is it likely there are 10 forms of fabrials? I don't know that it's all that likely. Maybe, but it doesn't seem to fit with what we know about fabrials. I think more recent and specific information he's put out implies there are probably 9 forms of voidbinding.

Something I think is important is that you need to take the charts printed in the books with a grain of salt. They are confirmed to be representations of in world knowledge, which may not be accurate to the "true" way things work. We know the human scholars think that everything is based on a system of 10, which is why they would make a chart with 10 things on it for Voidbinding. But, if you look at the number of Unmade, we know there are 9. So, we have at least one point of evidence that Odium bases his systems on the number 9. There's a good chance the Voidbinding chart is wrong or inaccurate. Could you clarify what you mean here? What is the reason the Stormfather doesn't want the Sibling woken up? Are you arguing that the Sibling is actually the Unmade?

No, in the sense that he was not a member of the Willshapers order and probably never would have become one. Yes, in the sense that he seems to have the right temperament for it. Seeking freedom and holding slaves are not mutually exclusive. Think about Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy that essentially each person's goal should be to take what they want for themselves. So long as slavery isn't hereditary (which I don't think it is in Alethkar) then I think Sadeas still squares with a Willshaper and the value of seeking freedom. Those slaves were able to seek freedom, but weren't able to find it. Sadeas also seemed to be against things like banding together, higher authority, etc. He was all about every man for himself, which again is an expression of freedom.

Yep, very fair. My mind just doesn't work that way and that's why I stay out of that kind of shipping discussion. I think it's a category all on its own, somewhere in between fan fiction and just discussion of the books. To me, ships are theories, or maybe a better term for it is arguments. To me the reason ships exist is because there's an unresolved romantic conflict in fiction and people take sides and try to prove who is right or wrong. Like the infamous Team Jacob and Team Edward. I just want to discuss opinions on what has happened or what will happen in the books. But that's just me. To be fair, a lot of the pie in the sky theorizing people do here drives me nuts too. Like - Ok, yes Sanderson did say a throwaway line about some obscure property of an unlikely Allomancy/Hemalurgy combination at some Q&A event. Maybe Nightblood could destroy the whole cosmere if wielded by the reformed Adonalsium! That has no bearing on anything! But, I know I can get pretty pedantic on stuff and anyone who isn't part of this kind of community would have a good laugh if they realized how much time I spent debating the theoretical economic conditions of a fantasy world.

I think it comes down to the fact that not everyone sees things the way that you do and not every community is the same. What you dislike about this community - the lack of interest in more speculative shipping - is something I like about it. For you, it may seem equally fine to ship anyone with anyone else. And that's great, if that's what you like then by all means do it. I've got nothing against people doing the kind of shipping that you like, though I personally don't want to participate. Normally, I just stay quiet about this stuff and participate in discussions only about ships that I personally enjoy. The reason I posted in this thread was to try to understand the perspective of people who do the more speculative shipping, especially male/male slash pairings. And I thought LadyLameness' post was a great explanation. I'm only saying what makes the kind of "lesser shipping" that I like enjoyable for me personally. And for me personally, shipping against a character's sexuality feels like a violation of that character. It feels like taking who that character is and what they believe in and changing it based on your own desires. It may not feel that way for you, but it does for me. No, attraction to women does not equal lack of attraction to men. But, when an omniscient third person narrator is telling us a character's thoughts and feelings and they do not include attraction to men, then that does equal lack of attraction to men in my view. I guess what it comes down to is that I think the parts of shipping that you like fall more into the category of fan fiction. And again, nothing against that, but it's not what interests me. Like some of the stuff Negative_Null is saying about alternate realities, etc. I mean, hey that's cool and I'm glad there are people out there who love to write this stuff. But I'm not going to read it. I'm interested in talking about what might happen in the books - dissecting the potential relationships that are actually shown in the canon. The Venli/Kaladin ship to me is interesting and a cool idea. I just think there's not enough to go on yet to have much of a conversation, but I predict after RoW there will be a lot more material!