agrabes

I don't think Surrender is as bad an option as you make it out to be: 1) Dalinar and Eshonai had been in contact and were in process of working out a deal until she took Storm Form and lost control. 2) While the humans do keep the Parshmen as slaves, they do not know (at the time Venli is making her decision) that the Parshmen and Parshendi are the same species. The humans always acknowledged the Parshendi as fully sentient beings who could not/should not be enslaved like the Parshmen. The Parshendi knew and understood this, we see it from Eshonai's prologue that all parties understood the Parshmen were a separate category from humans and Parshendi. The Parshendi knew that humans would not attempt to take them all as slaves similar to the way they had with the Parshmen. If her goals were truly to preserve the life of her people, surrender was the best and most reliable option. It may have forced them to become vassals of the Alethi, or to pay homage, etc, but it would have preserved the lives of the Parshendi and not made them slaves any more than a defeated human nation would have. I don't totally blame her for choosing to go for the forms of power either. It was a reasonable choice given the circumstances - she risked the return of their old "gods" on the chance that she might discover a safe form that was able to defeat the humans in battle. But, it was also a choice made in pride. To Venli, being defeated in war and submitting to the Alethi was just as bad as dying or being controlled by the Fused. Wiser rulers (such as Eshonai, pre-storm form) understand when the surrender is the right decision and are able to consider it an option. Venli at that time was not mature enough to understand.

I would argue that if a Syl POV is included in RoW, it will be one of the several small, brief POVs that don't get listed in the outlines that are put out while he is writing the book. OB had 5-10 of those. Just the way he discussed it in that quote seems like he wants to include a Syl POV to give us an idea into how her mind works and things like that, maybe some insight into Kaladin from Syl's perspective, not that she's got her own independent story or something like that which would justify several interludes, etc.

You're right, we don't see him interact with them. But, we are told that they all meet. I personally think what we've been shown so far implies that Gavilar was trying to play a game that he knew very little about. For example, he assumes that Eshonai would want to bring back the Fused. He had a few pieces of the puzzle and drew the wrong conclusions. It may be that I'm totally wrong, but that's the feeling I get. I think he was just a conqueror who wanted to first restore a united Alethkar, then achieve the goals of the Sons of Honor to restore a Theocracy with himself as the god-emperor and conquer as much of the world as he could behind that united banner of all Vorin nations. If he could defeat the forces of evil during a desolation, even better for his legitimacy. I think he felt tying in the Vorin religion to his rule and as the source of his legitimacy would secure his dynasty long term, unlike other conquerors whose empires generally died with them.

Theory on why women dress in any particular way aside, I don't think your conclusion that Jasnah is a headstrong lesbian follows at all from any of the points you've made. I mean, come on - just dressing nice without any sexual context does not imply she's doing it to lure people in. Jasnah does not ever act in a flirty or sexy way, which is much more important in revealing her motives. Even if she does have an adversarial vibe going with other women, that doesn't mean she's a lesbian. I also don't think she really has an adversarial vibe going with women. She just takes a while to warm up to people. She has a good relationship with Navani. Her relationship with Shallan is a little rocky, but that's sort of a mentor/mentee, student becomes the teacher type rivalry and the rockiness mostly comes from Shallan's side. Wanting to assassinate her brother's wife is an objectively good decision though a bit cold, knowing what we know about her after OB. Basically, there's no evidence that Jasnah is a lesbian. There's very little evidence she's asexual - only that she never attempts to enter a romantic or sexual relationship on screen (I mean it's Sanderson, so there won't be on screen sex). There's also a small amount that she is either straight or bi - that she considered marrying Amaram at one point which may or may not mean she was interested in a sexual relationship with him at some point.

Well, I think it's a little unclear. Early in the prologue it says this: Which directly says that Amaram was included. However, later it says this: Which, while the wording isn't 100% precise, implies Amaram was not there at least at that moment. So there are two contradicting statements. It might be that as an early draft, it will later be revised to make it clear that Amaram was not there and was never part of that portion of Gavilar's plan. But as written/transcribed, it does not say that Gavilar's discussion with Amaram was separate.

True, but in the SA4 prologue (SA4 prologue spoilers) So either only Amaram and Gavilar knew the secrets , or neither of them knew what was really going on in that prologue scene. Or, the prologue isn't in final draft and may be edited to change who is supposed to know what. It doesn't make sense for Amaram to have been in on it if Gavilar knew what was really happening So, I guess you may be right that the rank and file of the Sons of Honor don't know everything about the true goals of the order based on the small snippet we see in the SA4 prologue. But I'm not sure it would make sense for the goals to be as theorized by the OP.

Welcome! I don't know if I'd go so far as to say I think there should be "revenge" on Shallan. But, I do think you're right that something felt off about Shallan's sudden marriage to Adolin at the end of OB. It felt like she decided she wasn't interested in figuring things out anymore and just wanted to take action so she didn't have to think about it anymore, or something. Not that Adolin isn't worthy of her love, just that something felt rushed or off about the marriage. The romance plot is not the only place this pops up - she does it in pretty much all aspects of her life. I think there will be a pay off for this in RoW or SA5. We will have a scene where she realizes that she's lost out by not being real and sort of bypassing the tough parts of her decision making process and it teaches her to stop doing it. That said, in terms of Kaladin and Jasnah - I don't really care much about Shallan's relationship to them. I don't think Kaladin and Jasnah go together, personally. They're just too different and not really compatible as friends or lovers. I think one of them would have to change significantly, or maybe Jasnah would show a side of herself we haven't seen yet since we don't know a ton about her yet as a character. If you ask me, they'll remain respected colleagues but not interested in hanging out with each other "outside work." Though I will say that if Kaladin and Jasnah did get together, I do think it would definitely cause a reaction from Shallan. The guy she kinda/sorta had feelings for and the mentor she admires and it's implied she might have some subconscious attraction for getting together would be a tough one for her I think. I think if Kaladin and Jasnah were together, their relationship would distract and diminish Shallan's importance. Just like when Shallan was upset that Jasnah came back and suddenly Shallan was no longer top dog in terms of Radiants and intelligence/research, if Jasnah and Kaladin become a super couple I think it does the same thing to Shallan again. I don't think this will happen, but it could be fun to read about if it did.

Wasn't Gavilar known to be a member of the Sons of Honor? If so, that implies his goal was to cause the Parsh to become the Voidbringers in order to kick off a desolation so that the Heralds would return. I don't think he was interested in enslaving the Parshendi.

It's all right - we're all prone to this kind of thing. I appreciate that you're willing to consider this from a different angle. And for what it's worth, while I don't personally think Colin Kaepernick is quite as saintly as people make him out to be (imo - he tried to use this issue as a way to avoid a life of obscurity after NFL defenses figured out how to counter his playstyle and he had been pretty much permanently relegated to the bench, I would have had much more respect for him had he done this as a starter) I do think you are absolutely right about people using the "disrespect for the flag" issue as a distraction so they didn't have to think about the real implications. Even if I'm not on board with Kaepernick himself, the countless other players (or more importantly, the underlying reason they wanted to protest) cannot be ignored. People are doing it today too, like you said. People do this all the time, so they don't have to confront uncomfortable realities for them. I know I've done it in the past, we all have. And trust me, even though we don't see totally eye to eye on this, the way people on "the right" use these distraction tactics is very frustrating for me. In some ways, I could say almost it's more frustrating for someone like me who is a moderate with light conservative lean on some issues, slight liberal on others - because these are people who I might otherwise identify with, proving themselves to be unworthy. And it makes me worry about myself - what might I be doing that is contributing to these problems, without knowing it? And how do I forge my identity as someone who respects his own cultural roots, while agreeing with some of the values that you have, but disagreeing with others? For me, when I see people like that I try to explain the situation to them, put it in new context. Most conservatives (justified or not) feel that their way of life and belief is under attack. And they feel like they are not even allowed to think for themselves anymore. So when someone tells them "If you don't support Kaepernick, you're supporting racism!" they get upset and look for ways to sidestep the issue. But if you put it in the right context, at least imo, it let's them think about it in new ways. They may not change their mind right then and there, but the next time an issue comes up, they will think of it in a more open way. That's what seems true and real to me - helping people understand what they're really saying and what it really means, outside of partisan political context. All I can say is, I know I've put my foot in my mouth plenty of times before. I've said things out of ignorance that I should never have said. And I don't expect you to agree with me, all the time. I just hope that everyone can respect that most of us are trying to come from a good place even if it leads us in a different direction.

And I personally think that while your opinion and approach toward these issues is valid, I respectfully ask you to think critically about your own position and approach to this issue in the same way that you ask others to think critically about theirs. You have said that you don't want to antagonize or criticize others, but in the post you implied that those of us who don't like celebrity/social media culture are simply using this as a smokescreen to distract from our racist beliefs and/or our discomfort for those who advocate against racism. These types of statements are hurtful and are what makes it difficult for moderates and conservatives who want to fight racism and authoritarianism to come on board with you. While I don't know anything about you as a person, you strike me as someone who sincerely and deeply believes that it's important and good for society for people like Brandon Sanderson to speak out on these issues. There's nothing at all wrong with believing that. You clearly want to do what you think is right. I just ask that you have respect for those of us who differ with you on the best way to address these issues and respect for what is deeply meaningful to us that might not be meaningful to you. It's important for us to have the same respect for you. You are not the ultimate arbitrator of right and wrong on these issues, neither am I. If I disagree with you on some aspects of how to address this issue, it's not because I'm a secret racist. It's because I think there's a better way to combat the issues faced by society. And in the end, the best thing may be for people like me to do what we do best and for people like you to do what you do best and tackle the problem from both ends.

I don't know - I never read Elhokar's story this way. Throughout WoK, he seemed like a generally petty and self absorbed guy. A guy who was happy to watch the world burn as long as he had his champagne and caviar. A guy who was too dumb to understand he was putting people in danger. He married a woman who clearly had bad character based on her later actions, though to be fair he may not have had complete freedom of choice in that. I always read Elhokar as a crappy king and generally not a good person who realized after exposure to people like Dalinar and Kaladin that he needed to do better. I think sometime during the events of WoR was when he realized he needed to make a change, but he just kinda... well... was incompetent and couldn't figure out how to do it until OB. Even if he had become a Lightweaver, I don't think he would have figured out how to be a good king and it would have taken him time to become a good person. I think if there was a positive final truth for him, it would have been something along the lines of him figuring out what he is actually good at and using that ability to do good.

Sanderson's first response really speaks to me. This is a challenging time for everyone in our country. And I think one of the hardest things to do is for each person to find their way to contribute. And for those of us who are more moderate, or even conservative politically it's tough for us to find our place. But I also think that moderates like myself are the most important people to these kinds of movements - we make up most of the country and we need to speak up and stand up for what is right. For me personally, the struggle is that I agree with the principles of the BLM movement and believe our country's criminal justice system is in desperate need of major reform, but find little in common personally or politically with many of the voices who support the movement. I don't agree with the aggressive way many people discuss the movement on social media. Not aggression against people who are oppressing others, but aggression against those they feel are not enthusiastic enough in support of the movement. I think outrage does absolutely no good unless it's aimed at a specific goal. There's no value in adding one more voice of rage. And on social media, if you are not a voice of rage, you are considered part of the problem. So how do I personally support this important movement? Unlike Sanderson, I have the luxury of not being a major media figure. I have the luxury of addressing these issues in private, on a one to one basis with those I care about. I have the luxury to wait and throw my voice in when I can help make a meaningful change to enact real improvements. And importantly, I recognize that I have the luxury of not being someone that this impacts directly on a personal level. So, I personally have chosen to do what I think Sanderson would have preferred to do - keep an eye on the situation, keep learning, advocate for change and reform privately in the way that is sincere and consistent with my own values rather than those of the social media mob, and strike when the time is right.

I don't know the best way to put this and I've tried to think about it for a while, so rather than waste more time turning it over in my mind, I'll just say a few words and let it be done. I think of it this way: In a relationship headed toward marriage, the couple gradually learns about each other and gradually increases their level of commitment toward each other. During the relationship, it's understood that the type of reason that they could split up becomes gradually more and more restrictive. If the first date goes bad, there's a good chance the relationship is ended right then and there. Eventually, the couple enters a time when they are seriously considering getting married. They start talking about their life plans and goals, they start making sure they are compatible for the long haul. At this point, it's only a major disagreement that would cause them to split up. Then, they make plans to be together for the rest of their lives and choose to get engaged. It's still explicitly part of the deal that they can break it off, but there are even fewer reasons. Then, they get married. They've launched themselves into the next phase of their life. Sure, they were preparing things for this moment ever since they started seriously thinking about it. So there's not a moment when it all radically changes. But the day of the marriage is when they lock it in, they can't back out anymore. They're committed. It's not just an outward sign, it's a final seal and promise that they will fulfill and carry out all their plans and dreams together. From one day to the next, very little changes, but at a certain point you've crossed a line and you can't go back. In a relationship not headed toward marriage, the couple also gradually learns about each other and gradually increases their level of commitment toward each other. They may or may not make plans about their lives together. They may or may not make commitments to each other of different types. And eventually, their commitment to each other is very strong. But there is never a day when they say to each other "This is final. We can't come back from this." And so at any time, however hard it may be, you can back out. You can end the relationship. You've never promised otherwise. This difference is what defines marriage to me. It's the point of no return. It's the point that you and your partner agree that you're not going to turn back. In my own marriage, this steadfast commitment has seen us through the tough times. We've had bad months, months where the love and faithfulness and support were not there. Months where we weren't sure we wanted to be married anymore. Months where we thought there might not be a path back to the kind of relationship we wanted to have. Months where if those same things had happened before the marriage, we would have called it off. But we stuck it out because we made vows, we made commitments that we would be stand by each other even in the worst times. And we've come through those rough times and made it to the other side. In my opinion, a relationship that is not built on the idea that marital vows are deeply meaningful cannot last through truly tough times. And many people would argue that might be for the better, that marriages should end more easily and spare people the pain of a struggling marriage. I think that's a totally valid argument and may even be right, but it's not how I choose to live my life.

Yeah definitely fair points about Adolin's perception. I think it's just something we'll have to see in the next book. And I'm maybe not putting things the best way about what I want to see between Shallan and Adolin. What I want is to see this be a point of serious conflict in their relationship, but not the end of it. I want to see them almost break it off, but then choose to stay together. This gives Sanderson a chance to dive into what makes their relationship really work and its strengths. I honestly feel like with the exceptions of one or two short scenes in OB, most of Shallan and Adolin's interactions have been very shallow and surface level. To me, that has made their relationship and theoretical happiness together feel a bit unearned. If he combines the plot of marital strife (and its eventual resolution) with Shallan making progress on her identity issues, it's killing two birds with one stone. In terms of marriage, I agree with what you're saying. I didn't get that from Animar's post, but if that was the intent then I agree. Marriage isn't the end and you can't rest on your laurels at that point. Like you said, after you get married you have to keep working on your relationship or it will fall apart. It's totally valid for people to choose not to marry, that is a personal choice with a lot of cultural influence like you said. I just think that if you do choose to marry, you need to treat it much differently than the relationship that came before. A marriage is not just a single day where you celebrate prior commitment. It's a day when the type of commitment you've made changes. And you have to make certain plans and agreements with your partner prior to getting married if you want it to work. You have to agree on certain major questions like "Will we have kids?" These kinds of shared plans and goals are fundamental building blocks to a marriage. It doesn't mean that you can't later change your mind about them, but changing the foundation of your marriage by nature must seriously threaten its existence. To me, by contrast if you are in a long term non-marriage relationship instead, there is never a defined time when you have to sit down and make plans and decisions like this about your future together. You decide things over time gradually and if you ever drift too far apart, then you can walk away from the relationship. And that kind of relationship works for some people and that's totally cool. But it's not the same thing as a marriage.

Yeah, appreciate the response. I think we're on the same page mostly about Shallan and Adolin. Sure, I agree there are tons of other pressures on their relationship. Even though those other issues are real and serious, I think it's reasonable that the pressure could boil over into just one thing which I think could reasonably be Shallan's identity issues. Plot efficiency - we know that Shallan will have to work through those issues at some point, so why not also combine it as a way to flesh out her marriage to Adolin? Can't say I agree with your take on marriage, though. Religious and philosophical views aside, there is a legal difference between being married and not. Once you sign that paper, your spouse owns half your stuff. You can't just walk away from each other anymore. The idea that marriage shouldn't be different from any other part of a relationship just logically doesn't make sense. If it wasn't different, why would people get married? There would be no need. Or, why wouldn't they get married after their first date? Marriage is different from other relationships. If you want to put a marriage in terms of the Stormlight Archive - a relationship is like being a squire and a marriage is like being a Knight Radiant. As a squire, you can leave and change completely at any point with no consequences. Once you make that commitment to become a Radiant, you've made a solemn vow to behave in a certain way for the rest of your life. You can and should still grow and change, but you've agreed to have certain limitations placed on you now. There are very serious consequences now if you go back on your word. You wouldn't say no one should become a Radiant because that is putting destination ahead of journey. But for some people, maybe being a Radiant is not for them. And that's OK.

Yeah - very true, there wasn't much time to show anything more about her in OB. I personally feel that there were hints being dropped in those last chapters that she's not going to make much progress without another major event. Things like her saying she could be three women, and Adolin could have three wives, with his negative reaction to that. The sections where Radiant and Veil appear on their own and talk to Shallan as if they are real, independent people. The line about how Adolin views Veil as a separate woman who is not his wife. In that same line, Shallan points out she doesn't think she can tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods as herself and she needs to have Veil do it. I think these are all indications there are still issues there and some tension should result. But, I can also definitely see how someone else could interpret that differently. The one thing I will say is that Adolin is definitely perceptive and he's picked up on this better than anyone else, but he gets help. I don't think you're remembering the scene correctly, or maybe I'm forgetting about another scene - but there is not a moment when he looks into her eyes and realizes on his own that there is more than one person in there. He has a lot more clues than anyone else. He sees her sitting on the ship in Shadesmar drawing dozens of pictures of variants of herself and she directly tells him she is creating these personalities and she is losing control of them. (Ch. 108 of OB, p 1012 in my hardcover version) He doesn't figure this out on his own and no one else gets these clues. So we shouldn't give him more credit than he's due - where he should get credit is recognizing when she is using the personality he knows and sticking to his convictions that he doesn't want other, fake versions of her. That's why I say - he's picked up on some things and he's been told some things by Shallan which have skewed his perception. I don't think Adolin is wrong to see Radiant and Veil's fakeness. I don't think he's wrong at all - he's been misled. If I were in those shoes it feels worse that someone tells you 80% of what's going on, while hiding 20% than just telling you nothing. If they tell you nothing, it feels like they are just insecure and hiding things from everyone. If they tell you part of it but hold back on key information, it feels like they are intentionally trying to deceive you. He thinks it's Shallan: 100% Shallan, Veil: 100% Veil, Radiant, 100% Radiant when in reality is Shallan: 70% Shallan, Veil: 85% Veil, 15% Shallan, Radiant: 85% Radiant, 15% Shallan. He's never known a complete, 100% fully integrated Shallan. She'd already started creating Veil by the time they met. That's not his fault and he shouldn't be blamed for it. But, when he does get to meet that full, true, Shallan and realize that she has some of the character traits he didn't like in Veil, then it's logically going to cause some marital strife. Doesn't mean it will cause a divorce, or long term problems. But it will be a difficult issue to work through. Respectfully, I think what you've posted is half true and half bogus. Of course relationships are based on people growing and changing and anyone who can't accept that is going to have problems in life. A married couple should support each other, even when they face tough problems that are painful for one or the other of them. People do hide things from others and have things they have a hard time articulating. But, I think that there's a difference between a relationship and a marriage. A marriage is a lifelong commitment between two people who have agreed to share everything. If you want to get married, you enter into a relationship first to work through these kinds of issues. If you don't feel that you can trust someone with your deepest darkest secrets that fundamentally make up who you are, you are not ready to marry that person. If you keep those secrets from your partner, only to reveal them after marriage and demand that your partner makes major life changes to accommodate you, then you are in the wrong. I'm not talking about things like "Hey, you know I'd like to start a new career" or "Look, I've been flattering you while we were dating but you are a terrible cook, so I'll handle the cooking from now on." I'm talking about things like "Actually, I have a second life I've kept secret from you all this time" or "I don't think I can live a monogamous life". It's not healthy to just roll over and say "Sure honey, it's fine" in those situations. You have to have a line and you have to stand up for yourself. You can't just erase yourself to support your partner. People who love each other can work out a lot of problems, even ones that cause a lot of pain. In terms of Adolin and Shallan's marriage, the things she has hidden from Adolin are the kinds of things that can cause pain for him. And he would be right to protect himself and make an issue of them with her. I don't think it would lead to divorce, but it will lead to serious challenge to their marriage.

Yeah, just can't say I'm on board with that one. I don't think that's a good way to go for Kaladin - he's already tough on himself. Having someone else beating up on him for his mistakes isn't going to lead him to growth, imo. I could see that kind of relationship possibly being good for Jasnah though. I think it could be written in a good way if that's the way Sanderson decides to go. Wouldn't be my choice, but that doesn't mean a lot :). I think the more interesting plot is a moderately serious disagreement between Shallan and Adolin. Not super melodramatic, but serious enough that they question if they really want the same things out of life and if a marriage really makes sense for them. Something serious enough that they aren't just sitting down thinking they're still on the same page and can just work through it together. They're having conversations about what each of them really, truly wants and what is the best path forward and whether or not that is together.

I think it really depends on the issue. If it turns out she had been hiding significant portions of who she was, intentionally or unintentionally, then that is a fundamental change in the nature of the relationship. I would want her to be true to herself, of course. But if her true self is different than the self I thought she was and that we planned our future together based on, that requires serious discussion and could change the nature of our marriage forever. I'm not saying Adolin and Shallan can't work through their issues (or that I couldn't in my own life), but what I'm saying is these will be serious issues that will cause tempers to flare, feelings to be seriously hurt, and will take serious time to heal and recover from. I don't think it's a "Hey, thank you for telling me, I totally understand!" kind of conversation. Yeah, I think that's a fair interpretation of the WoB. I don't think you could call Kaladin's feelings for Shallan "true love" or something like that - after all they really spent very little time getting to know each other. I don't believe there was a chance for real love to develop. But the way I read the WoB is that it's saying Kaladin had real romantic feelings for Shallan that could have developed into a true love if they had been given the chance, that it wasn't true that this was all just some illusion from Lightweaver magic and he never had any feelings for her. To me, this is Brandon Sanderson saying that his intent in that section at the end of OB was to show that Kaladin is in denial about what his true feelings were, now that he knows he has to cut them off. It's Sanderson saying we shouldn't read that sentence as literally true. Which to me, is a much better and more logical ending for the triangle plot than the alternative. For me personally, I don't think that Kaladin will become close with Jasnah. She's a complete afterthought to him so far in the story - I'm not sure if he's ever even thought about her in scenes where she doesn't appear with him. I think their personalities just don't serve to be supportive to each other. Jasnah is cold, logical, and pragmatic with a relatively low emotional intelligence while Kaladin is very emotional and unwilling to compromise his principles just to get a better deal in politics. I feel like they are people who will work together well as colleagues with constructive conflict but are too different to be friends. I just can't imagine Jasnah being supportive of Kaladin when he's in a depressive mood, or Kaladin being able to help Jasnah with her own personal struggles which seem to be about prioritizing what she thinks is the best outcome based on logic vs. managing her personal relationships with others. I think if Kaladin does find a friend that will help him grow as a person, it will be a Lightweaver. The people who've helped him the most are lightweavers (Tien and Shallan). I think the personality traits normally tied to that order and their magical abilities are suited to helping him work through his issues - helping him to recognize he doesn't need to beat himself up so badly and that he's actually done a very good job most of the time. It doesn't have to be Shallan, but makes sense if it would be since they have an interesting existing friendship. Also, Adolin is Kaladin's closest thing to a real friend, so I can't imagine he won't be in contact with Shallan. What makes Shallan a mess for Kaladin right now is that he is totally in the dark about her mental state. If he were to learn that, I think the messiness is gone. And I think in learning that, it presents another opportunity for them to help each other grow. Kaladin's problem is that he takes on all responsibility and crushes himself under the duty, thrusting the weakest parts of himself in the open to be destroyed. Shallan's problem is she hides from responsibility and runs from challenges, hiding her weaknesses and never growing past them. Seems like a great opportunity for them to have a conversation and help each other get a little of the other's coping mechanisms to help themselves deal better with their hardships.

I think you are underestimating how emotional people can be regarding their personal relationships and marriages. If I were to find out that my wife had spent our entire relationship up until our marriage intentionally hiding major aspects of her personality from me, I would be very upset. I committed my life to the person I knew at the time, and if she were to become a different person, that is a fundamental change in the foundation the marriage was built on. I really do think this will be a source of conflict for Adolin and Shallan in RoW. I admit, my possible plot scenario may have been a bit more "dramatic" than what Sanderson would normally and is probably not realistic. But, I do think the evidence is there that Shallan hasn't shown her whole self to Adolin yet. It's in her nature to hide things and show people what she thinks they want to see. She opened up to Adolin at the end of OB, but they never fully discussed everything, which I think led to a partial misunderstanding. In terms of feelings between Shallan and Kaladin, I think it's written in the books that they do have feelings for each other at different times. The degree and depth of the feelings are different, and they both suppress them to one degree or another. Look at the end of WoR - Kaladin hopes Shallan will look for him as she rides off after they return from the Chasms, implying that he hopes maybe a relationship could blossom between them, but when she doesn't he quickly gets demoralized and starts to suppress his feelings (WoR Ch.76). Shallan, thinking about how Adolin just doesn't make her feel the same way Kaladin did when they were together, but quickly tells herself it's wrong to think that way about a man other than her fiance and that it's OK if Adolin's personality is less compatible with her than Kaladin (WoR Ch. 77). As to the nature of Kaladin's feelings there has been a recentish WoB about this topic which supports my opinion and finally clarifies what Sanderson intended with that scene at the end of OB. Essentially - Sanderson says that Kaladin is telling himself that his feelings couldn't have become love and/or were never love, but that Kaladin is not right about that. He explicitly says that the Lightweaver effect was a component of Kaladin's feelings, but it was not the entirety of them. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/387-fanx-spring-2019/#e12652 This is just Kaladin being Kaladin, like he was in WoR after the chasms. He is trying to let himself down easy and convince himself it never could have been and he never wanted it anyway. I think a conversation where Shallan sits down and tells Kaladin "Hey, ya know I had a little crush on you back then" would do wonders for Kaladin's self esteem not just in romance but his own sense of self value. He tells himself that no one really wants to be with him or be his friend just for him as a person, everyone wants to be with him because they serve with him, they want or need his help, etc. He tells himself that someone he admires as much as Shallan could never be interested in him as a man. That he's not good enough for someone like her and that he's a lesser person than both Shallan and Adolin. I think it would hugely valuable for him as a character to realize that people like him for him. He doesn't really have friends, only superiors and subordinates and mission objectives. I think the same could be true for Shallan, though to a lesser extent. I think it would be good for her to realize that there was a possible relationship there with Kaladin, but that it was healthy for her to cut it off out of loyalty to Adolin. I think it would be valuable if she recognized that she intentionally chose to do it fairly quickly after the Chasm scene, even before she pushed it off into Veil to hide the feelings. I think as far as sending Shallan and Adolin together - I think if my somewhat melodramatic plot idea happens, then it's not a situation of "Let's just send these two out somewhere to work on their relationship" but more like "Ok, we know Shallan needs to go on this mission and we could send any number of people with her. Let's make sure that second person is Adolin." I think it's fair to say we can't say for sure what exactly Shallan will do going forward either in the one year gap or in RoW. I was rereading some of those sections at the end of OB and you're right it's less clear than I was thinking. It's not clear whether or not (or how much) she's increased or decreased her control over Veil and Radiant. I do think it's shown that as of the end of OB she does not yet have full control - since they pop up on their own as she's getting dressed for the wedding. There's also the WoB already quoted in this thread that says Wit would consider as of the end of OB that she's taken a good step but that she's not there yet. She recognizes she's not ok and seems to have stopped things from getting worse, but I think scenes late in OB show that she's still not starting to get better as of the end of OB. I do think we can get a good idea of how Adolin views Shallan's current mental state, even if we don't see it directly from his POV. I think if we look at their conversation where Shallan reveals her identity problems to Adolin in Ch. 108 of OB, and combine it with the way we know he treats Veil as if she is a different person (Ch 122 OB) it seems pretty clear how Adolin perceives things. In Ch. 108, she talks about how she crafted Radiant to be more desirable for Adolin and he has a pretty negative reaction to that. In their conversations about the personas in Ch. 108, Shallan talks about creating fake personas to hide her flaws. She frames the conversation in a way that says she pretends to be Veil or Radiant in order to not be herself and who she really is. She never tells him that those personas contain parts of the real her and she never tells him that the her he thinks is the real her is missing those parts. So I think we have to assume that Adolin assumes that the "Shallan" he's known up until she really breaks down in late OB is the real and true her, while the Veil and Radiant personas are fake personalities she uses to hide her flaws. He kind of confirms this in Ch. 121, when he says it's worrisome that she becomes other people. He says he does not want to marry three different people, only what he considers the real her. We know this isn't really true, that she hides aspects of herself from him both intentionally and unintentionally. But he doesn't. I do agree that the personas are not 100% fake or real, both are built on a core of truth about Shallan, but then filled in with made up stories. But, like I said above, I think that's part of the problem because I don't believe that Adolin understands this.

I think the biggest danger sign in their relationship, as I see it, is that Shallan is still papering over things and has not really merged herself into one complete person yet. So, Adolin has chosen to marry the "Shallan" persona that he has known since they met in WoR, but what he doesn't realize is that the "Shallan" persona does not contain all of who Shallan is. She hasn't been completely honest with him - he currently thinks that "Shallan" is completely real, while Veil and Radiant are completely fake personalities that sometimes take over. We know this isn't true - we know that she uses the personas as a place to store unwanted feelings and character traits. The "Shallan" that Adolin knows is only about 70-80% of the real Shallan. For example - she's pushed her more aggressive and sneaky personality traits over to Veil along with her unwanted feelings for Kaladin and she's pushed the more formal and martial portions of her personality into Radiant. At some point, we have to expect that Shallan will re-integrate herself and will no longer spin out painful memories and "undesirable" aspects of herself into these separate personas. Her whole arc is about facing up to her own inner demons, so we have to expect she either challenges this stuff head on and fully resolves it or goes down a dark path (unlikely). Once Shallan re-integrates herself, she will have a different personality, containing the parts of her that she intentionally hid from Adolin because she felt he would not like them. That doesn't mean she was right to believe he wouldn't like them, but you have to imagine that will lead to at least some marital strife. I don't think it will lead to a divorce, but I think it will lead to serious consequences that will have plot relevance. I feel like Sanderson has been foreshadowing this for a while - Shallan and Adolin's conversations have always felt very surface level and superficial, aside from the one time at the end of OB. I believe that understanding her true mental state has been strongly foreshadowed as a key future plot element. The full truth of what Shallan is doing will come out at some point. It's a ticking time bomb and I think Sanderson's been clear in interviews/Q&A sessions that Shallan's issues are not close to resolved yet. She's only taken the first step in the right direction. More trouble will come. If Adolin feels she's been hiding her true self from him since day one all the way up until sometime after OB, I could see him losing a lot of trust in her. Adolin's generally been a good person and like you said he has generally tried to correct his mistakes and to work on his weaknesses. I think there's a good chance he would ultimately accept Shallan, warts and all, once he knows the whole truth. If the relationship breaks up, I think it will be from Shallan's Identity Crisis and her doing something bad to Adolin, rather than Adolin doing something bad to her. After thinking about it, here's the future plot I hope might happen: Shallan makes progress between OB and RoW in re-integrating some of her personality into her main self. Adolin is pretty perceptive and notices this, and finally puts all the pieces together of her true nature and the nature of her alternate personas. This leads to trust issues as I mentioned earlier - he thinks that she's deceived him every step of the way and their whole relationship is fake. She fires back with some mean comments about him and it escalates from there. By the time of RoW, they are spending most of their time apart while still keeping up appearances officially as newlyweds. Early in RoW while everyone is still together, each of them confide in friends like Jasnah, Kaladin, Dalinar, etc about what to do - should they keep their marriage even though it's based on lies? Kaladin finally pieces together the true nature of Shallan's mental state, has a chat with her about it and resolves their misunderstanding from OB. They're able to have a heart to heart conversation again similar to in WoR where they talk through his killing of Helaran, which helps her process her feelings about it in a healthier way. Kaladin and Shallan both realize that they've had feelings for each other at different times and to different degrees, helping their self esteem. It sets up this awesome dilemma for Kaladin as he is forced to choose between his own old feelings for her and his loyalty but he ultimately tries to give her advice to help the relationship with Adolin. All of "Team Radiant" conspires to force them together on a mission to make up, which leads to the RoW covers joint mission that ultimately leads to them reconciling.

Love this theory! Don't think it's true but still love it. I think a lot of people give Sadeas more hate than he deserves. Sure, he's scheming and conniving, but that's kind of the Alethi way. We just get to see through the eyes of the few good Alethi characters who've realized that's not right. Sadeas thinks he is doing what is right for the kingdom and he always was loyal. He just thinks Dalinar is taking things down the wrong path. Unfortunately, he was pretty clearly also being manipulated or influenced by Odium. It would be a cool plot if this were true, but like you said it just doesn't seem like Sanderson's style. Navani's broken oaths are probably from political machinations that she perpetrated over the years to help Gavilar gain power and/or to help her family and country.

I agree with both your first two statements to a certain extent. I agree that passionate love can be overrated and/or isn't required for everybody, but I guess my main point is that at least from my reading Adolin and Shallan never expressed a strong desire (passionate or otherwise) to stay together until the end of Oathbringer. Up until that point, it was just "hey we're together, it wasn't our choice but it's not bad either so let's make the best of it". In that moment at the end of OB, Adolin said that it didn't have to be like that if Shallan didn't want it to. And for the first time, they committed to each other that they wanted to be together by choice, not just by circumstance. I think that's when their relationship became real. I think Adolin's insecurities about his relationship are both a sign of emotional maturity and a sign of a weak relationship. He's mature enough to acknowledge the problem and try to address it rather than let it fester, but that necessarily means that it was a problem. The weakness of the relationship was they'd never had that "Define The Relationship" moment. Was it a political marriage, with the understanding that they were primarily business partners with a bit of sexual chemistry who could seek their personal/emotional needs from others? Did Shallan feel happy with Adolin as a person, or was she just happy with that status she would gain from marrying him? Those are legitimate and important questions they had not discussed up to that point. In terms of Adolin's struggle with his capabilities relative to Shallan, I called it a struggle because I think it's something he's working on. In WoR before he knows she is a Radiant, there are scenes that show that Adolin thinks Shallan is someone who needs to be protected and that she can't handle herself on her own, etc. Even prior to Shallan being a Radiant, Adolin was mostly wrong to think this and it's something that frustrates Shallan. Then, he learns she is as Radiant, has a shard blade, etc. And he tries to do the right thing, but it's hard for him. I think Shallan's huge increase in relative power and influence is a major factor in Adolin's general inadequacy. When they first meet, Adolin has all the power in their relationship. He's the one who is wealthy and from a powerful family, he is one of the strongest fighters in the world. Shallan has to rely on him for just about everything - if their relationship goes south she is penniless and far from home with no friends anywhere around. By the end of WoR, she has political power and wealth in her own right as a Radiant, she has combat capabilities nearly as strong as his if not stronger, and she doesn't have to rely on him for anything. If anything, he now has to rely on her. Adolin's not being a jerk about this, he's doing a pretty decent job of handling it all things considered. But it's still a serious stress point in their relationship - she grows more powerful and important as he becomes less powerful and less important. He doesn't always handle it perfectly and has caused Shallan frustration in the past over this issue. I think there's a reasonable chance it will be a sticking point for them again.

I don't know if it would go all the way to a divorce, but I do think that RoW will show us that the Honeymoon is over for Shallan and Adolin. I think your #2 scenario is the more likely one. Just based on Sanderson's writing style I don't see him writing a family crisis with extreme marital strife like your #1 scenario. It doesn't really fit with the tone he uses. I can definitely see him writing marital tension, but not a marriage where one or both parties completely get fed up with the other. Over the last 3 years a lot of good discussion has taken place in this thread. I've shared my own thoughts about whether or not Shallan and Adolin will actually spend a lot of RoW together in other threads, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume they do. If it does happen, I think it could be a good opportunity for Sanderson to finally dive into the Shallan/Adolin relationship in a more meaningful way. If you ask me, here's how it stands: Leading up to this the arranged marriage, Adolin and Shallan were both motivated to make it work for non-romantic reasons. Adolin had tried and failed multiple times at courting women and it was getting to the point that a lot of the eligible women of the Alethi court were not totally interested in getting with him. It seemed like he'd dated just about everybody and was more interested in dueling, fashion, etc than his relationship. He knew he needed to get married - it was a duty for him. Shallan needed to get financial security for her family. She knew she'd be placed in an arranged marriage for her family's political benefit from a young age. When the option of marrying Adolin came up, it was the best possible scenario for her. A marriage to one of the most powerful and wealthy families in Roshar. She has a vested interest in making it work. Once they finally meet, they realize they have a reasonable amount of compatibility with each other too, so they're happy that it will probably work out. Neither seems to be passionately in love with the other, but both are interested in making the relationship work. OB rolls around and Adolin recognizes that Shallan may be more interested in Kaladin. This leads to insecurity on his part. He's a nice guy and genuinely cares about her and is insecure about himself, his relationship with her, and his value as a non-radiant, so he offers to step aside. [Aside: Some people earlier in the thread felt this is unrealistic or a sign that he doesn't care, this is actually the part of Adolin's romance arc that feels the most sincere and relatable to me. In my younger days, I had a lot of insecurity about myself and my own desirability as a romantic partner so I can personally relate to this kind of feeling.] I think that Adolin even offers this is a sign that while he does care about Shallan, he views their relationship as mostly a political arrangement, not close or deep - he sincerely believes she does not want to be with him. It's a sign of a weak relationship - he simply isn't yet sure that Shallan is committed to him emotionally. This makes sense due to the unusual way their relationship starts - they're just told they will be together one day without the normal process of figuring out how they actually feel about each other. After the crisis moment at the end of OB is when their relationship begins to develop as a real, intentional relationship, rather than a political one that was thrust on them without their choice. They finally tell each other they want to be with each other. This is when they first confirm to each other they are changing course from "Let's make this political marriage work as best we can" to "Let's see if we can build a real romantic love and marriage between us." Now, post OB is when things develop as a real relationship. And I think there will be tension. Adolin has struggled with accepting that Shallan is better than him at many things. Shallan thinks Adolin is dumb. Adolin may or may not be partially enabling Shallan's multiple identities. Shallan is still struggling with the identities and this is even hinted as causing minor friction in late OB (Shallan's minor frustration that Adolin won't be intimate with the Veil persona). Adolin is unambitious, while Shallan is very ambitious. In RoW, I predict there will be tension shown on screen. I do think it will come from the identities thing. I think Adolin will basically try to keep handling things the same way as he does initially. I think this will lead to serious frustration on both ends. Adolin will be frustrated that Shallan isn't improving - she'll still spend time as Veil and Radiant, who Adolin doesn't want to be married to. Shallan will be frustrated either that Adolin won't accept those parts of her, or that he hasn't actively helped her improve and move on and has just accepted the status quo. Also - as long as the Veil persona exists, I think she is still going to remain attracted to Kaladin even though Kaladin himself has moved on. This might lead to some interesting confrontations. As of the end of OB, Kaladin still doesn't know about the split personality issue, so this could be very confusing for him. Shallan as Veil may come on to Kaladin at some point, leading to confusion from Kaladin and frustration/hurt from Adolin. Or, Adolin may develop a close enough friendship to Kaladin and feel secure enough in his relationship with Shallan that he confides in Kaladin about these issues. Wouldn't it be interesting if Kaladin (now moved on) confronts Shallan and tells her she needs to put those feelings to rest for Adolin's sake? I think ultimately, it will not lead to Shallan and Adolin splitting up. It might lead to them giving up on having a "romantic" relationship and going back toward a friendly political marriage. Most likely though, I think the trials will probably strengthen their relationship.

I agree with what you're saying, but I would add that it doesn't necessarily have to be someone with experience. Just someone with a strong natural aptitude for it. Dalinar is our only example right now, but he had a headstart. He said his first two oaths at the same time since he already had the experience and made the personal development before starting the path of becoming a Radiant. The next candidate might say their first oath as the first step on their path toward becoming a leader. I think the distinction between Bondsmiths and Windrunners in terms of leadership is that Bondsmiths decide what should be done and why while Windrunners lead others in getting it done. I could also see a religious leader becoming a Bondsmith. After all, Ishar was seen as sort of the spiritual leader of the Heralds/Radiants. Even Dalinar is kind of a spiritual leader in a way, a lot of what he does has to do with interpreting the Vorin religion and what it says about how people should act in light of the things they learn over the course of the series. He doesn't have a lot of followers yet, but he's basically starting a new sect of the Vorin religion.

I guess to be the voice of dissent here - aren't those common phrases that are often used without special meaning? I mean, those are common phrases you would hear people say when they are doing repetitive work like that. It's normal to develop a rhythm for work. It always could be a subtle way of saying Moash is getting influenced by the Fused, but I think it's just as likely to be language used to express the monotony of the work and how Moash takes comfort in the ability to tune out and forget his pain and guilt by focusing on his work.