agrabes

I agree that the "cost" of soulcasting vs. the cost of traditional production is a factor in economic choices. However, the entire point we are arguing here is that the value of the money gems (spheres) is not directly tied to the value of goods that they can produce. It is not a "gold standard" type system where the value of the money is directly tied to a certain physical good. In terms of the values of the gems relative to each other, the Coppermind has a chart showing all the values of every kind of sphere relative to each other. The chart is based on an email note from Sanderson's staff. For length, I won't quote it here but here is the link to it https://wob.coppermind.net/events/354-miscellaneous-2018/#e10402. There's no explanation given as to why the exchange values are what they are, but the way these are fairly round numbers like 5:1, 2.5:1, 10:1, etc between the different types of gems makes it seem like they are artificially set by government. If it was an organic exchange rate set by the exact intrinsic value of the spheres then it would probably be something like 68:29 that is not a nice round number. That's how real world currency works too (i.e. USD:Euro is not a nice even fraction or ratio). So, as per the coppermind the value of the highest and lowest valued gems is set somewhat based on what they can soulcast, but the relative values of the other stones are just set arbitrarily by rule. None of the gems' values are based exactly on the soulcasting value because too many other things fluctuate in the market. I highly doubt that there is an institution that keeps prices fixed. What most likely happens is that the market fluctuates freely and then once it gets too far out of line with the soulcasting cost, people start soulcasting a lot more (or less) and there is a correction and the price comes either up or down to come back more in line with the soulcasting cost/value. In the ancient societies, gold can also be used up in the sense that it is taken out of circulation as money. If you make a statue, or a gilded suit of armor, etc you are losing gold to being money. It's not a huge percentage of the gold supply, but I would also argue that gems destroyed in soulcasting is also a small percent of the money gem supply.

I don't think this comparison is valid. The Rosharan money system has not been shown to be a system where the currency gems are pegged to the exact value of what they can soulcast like the US Dollar was pegged at one time to a specific amount of gold. Under the gold standard, the reason that 1 US Dollar = 1 ounce of gold is because the government said so. It doesn't matter if gold itself becomes more or less valuable over time because the government who controls the paper money says that $1 always equals 1 ounce. For example, let's say some new invention comes along that takes 1 ounce of gold plus $5 worth of other materials and labor, and makes something that will sell for $10. You could argue that gold should really now be worth $5 instead of $1, but the price of gold can't rise because it's pegged to the dollar even though it "should." Compare that to the Rosharan Money system. For simplicity's sake we'll say it takes 1 topaz brohm can make 1 ton of marble in a soulcaster before it breaks. You could then argue that 1 ton of marble should be worth 1 topaz brohm. But what about all the other things you might buy with that topaz brohm? Or, since the money system is based on more than one type of gem, what about the value of what you could make with an emerald? The Coppermind says that 1 emerald brohm is worth 10 topaz brohms. So let's say 1 emerald brohm can make 1 ton of grain. Does that mean that 1 ton of marble is always equal in price to 10 tons of grain? I don't think that is likely the case. I think you have this off in your mind. In your analogy, the gems are the paper dollars of the currency, pegged to the stuff they can make which is the "gold" - an item of theoretically fixed value. I think in the Rosharan money system there can't be a gold standard reference. It's more like if there was a gold standard, a silver standard, a copper standard, a platinum standard, and a titanium standard each backing a different type of currency that has an exchange rate with each other and each one of these metals can fluctuate in value relative to the others (i.e. 1 oz of gold may be worth 1.5 oz of silver today, but it might be worth 2 oz of silver tomorrow). It's even more complicated than that because there are more than just 5 gemstones and therefore there are more than 5 goods that can be made from those gems to peg the value of gems to, but there are only 5 tiers of value in the Rosharan currency. You can't say I have 1 ton of marble and I want to trade it in for 10 tons of grain because the price of grain is not set based on the price of marble. It's set based on the market for grain and relative to the value of the gems. Instead, the relative values of the gems are pegged to each other. You can always say that you have one emerald brohm and you want 10 topaz brohms. Another point is that the reason the gold has value (in theory) is because it's a specific metal that has a fixed and limited supply. Aside from minor fluctuations like mining, the supply of gold isn't going to change much year to year which means its value is going to stay pretty stable. If you consider grain as the "gold", the same principle does not work. The value of grain changes a lot throughout the year, from year to year, and even from place to place based on scarcity, etc. Grain is too volatile to be the backing of a money system. I think the Rosharan money system is more like the ancient/medieval style money systems where actual gold and silver coins were used as the currency and the value of the money was derived from the actual precious metal content of the coin itself. The gems themselves are the value, they are not pegged to anything else.

I really don't think it would make sense if it did shatter Adolin or Renarin's perceptions. Someone else maliciously captured their mother who became collateral damage in their father's war crime. Adolin and Renarin always knew their father committed a war crime in the Rift, they just thought it was because the people of the Rift had killed their mother. To learn that their mother's death was an accidental, unwitting and tragic byproduct of that war crime instead of its cause does not seem like something that should shatter them. It's not like Dalinar ordered the destruction of the city knowing or having any reason to believe that Evi was inside. People die in war and she was at the front by her own choice. She put herself at risk of something like this happening to her. I don't think that her accidental death makes it any worse than what they already know. How does the conversation go? "Ok, so you caused the death of thousands of innocent people and I've known this all my life and I'm OK with it. But, now you're saying mom had snuck in among those people and died with them and you didn't know until afterward? I HATE YOU FOREVER!!" It just doesn't seem to make sense.

I think what you are discounting is the end results. Kaladin could have chosen to make a huge fuss, he could have chosen to go into rebellion over this. And you could argue that he would be more true to his own values and beliefs by doing it. But that analysis doesn't consider what the end result of doing any of those things would be and what action would have had the best end result. Let's look at what the results might be, positive and negative of taking a hardline stance. Pros: Kaladin remains firm in his principles. Amaram may have been punished. Nobles/Lighteyes may have been held accountable for crimes more often. Cons: Kaladin alienates Dalinar and Adolin, his only powerful allies Kaladin likely further destabilizes an already unsteady Alethi government by creating a division among nobles over Amaram and his possible punishment Amaram may not have been punished - he still has a lot of allies and the upper class will probably stick together to protect him even if they don't like him Nobles/Lighteyes may not be held accountable for crimes more often - if Kaladin's brash actions are viewed negatively the Lighteyes may double down and go into reactionary crackdown mode. This seems pretty likely, considering how all the people in power reacted to any other societal changes that Dalinar tried to implement through proper channels. Dalinar was only able to find success by continually and consistently pointing out the economic and moral benefits of his reforms and implementing the changes he could himself to lead by example. If Dalinar as a High Prince can't get people to consider reform in a reasonable amount of time when going through proper channels, I don't think Kaladin is likely to be successful trying to force it through as a person with much lower status. The point is, I think if you consider the entire situation and context Kaladin would have made things worse for his cause by trying to force it. If he really wants to force a change, then he should keep his head down, get out to the countryside and try to raise up a rebellion. At that point, he might have at least some small chance of success. Otherwise, he should try to support Dalinar's efforts to create reform from within.

To be fair, this actually exists in the real world. It's a market concept called "Arbitrage". There was a famous article about people doing this with college textbooks a few years ago. At that time, you could buy the textbooks off Amazon at the end of semesters when everyone wanted to sell them, then resell them for a profit on Amazon when a new semester was starting and everyone wanted to buy. I think Amazon has closed this loophole now, but there were a few years where you could make a good amount of money. The general concept of arbitrage though is that it may work on the short term, until the market figures it out and all the pricing comes in line. That sounds a lot like what Linn Davar was doing - even if he was just playing 100% straight up with no money laundering, it was only going to work for so long before the market caught up. I've just always felt that what was going on was basically a criminal scheme where the Ghostbloods were using his desperation to get him to do something that a normal person would never do and that probably was going to be really bad for him long term.

I have another controversial opinion. Maybe it's because I was reading/listening to too much Roman history and other histories of war, but what Dalinar did does not strike me as particularly heinous in context of all the wars in the real world. The ancient Romans destroyed Carthage and killed every man, woman, and child inside the city at the end of the 3rd Punic War and they don't take a lot of flack for that. No one holds up Scipio Africanus the Younger as one of the great war criminals of history. For a more modern example, look at World War 2. Even throwing out what the Germans, Japanese, and Russians did, the Western Allies and the US dropped firebombing raids on civilians knowing that tens and hundreds of thousands of people would be killed, most burned alive. What Dalinar did was not exceptionally bad or out of context when compared to actual war in the real world. It shouldn't have been done and it was morally wrong, but it was not some unheard of atrocity. He tried to do the honorable thing and negotiate peacefully, but he was betrayed and responded in rage only afterwards. Had he ordered (or allowed) large numbers of people to be pulled from their homes and individually tortured and slaughtered (as has been done in war crimes that have been committed in the real world), then I would feel what he did was especially egregious. I just think as someone who knows a bit about world history, in context Dalinar's response was sadly normal for someone in his situation. That doesn't excuse his crimes, but to me it makes them forgivable because they are not exceptionally bad in context and similar crimes have been committed in living memory by military leaders most of us in the western world generally consider good and moral.

In terms of savantism the one example we have seen is the woman who turned to smoke after using a smoke soulcaster for years. I agree the effect is cumulative, it doesn't matter how often you use it it makes how many times. So a person who used it once per year for 10 years is just as bad off as the person who used it 10 times in one day. You could still account for that by putting a lifetime cap on a person's use of soulcasters. I think of it similar to the Chernobyl cleanup effort. They had people go up onto an extremely radioactive rooftop for a very short period of time, essentially receiving their lifetime safe dosage of radiation in 90 seconds. Other workers were exposed for longer times to lower level doses, but still go up toward a maximum safe dosage eventually. At least, on paper that's how it was supposed to work though I know there is plenty of controversy over what really happened in practice. We've never seen a person turn into a part smoke, part grain, part rock chimera. So, you may be correct that that is what would happen if you switched soulcaster types, but I don't think we know that. Also, since "spirit web" is not a term that's been introduced in SA (has it even been introduced in any of the actual novels, or only WoB?) I don't really put a lot of stock in concepts about it until its explained in universe, if it ever is. At least for me personally, I definitely was considering the difference of radiant soulcasting vs. fabrial soulcasting. I think the piece I was missing was how limited each soulcaster fabrial was. I assumed that they were limited in that they could only make one type of thing - a stone one could make any type of stone, a metal one could make any type of metal, etc. I didn't realize they were so limited they could only make one exact thing (the stone one can only make one exact kind of stone barracks, or that one soulcaster that may only be able to make bronze). This may still be a limit in training or knowledge on the part of the ardents, but that's getting into more speculation.

I am not forgetting that soulcasting has its risks, I directly addressed that in my post. If it really is limitless and essentially free, it would be so good that the entire economy would be built around it. You could have 100 or even 1000 people operating a soulcaster. You could set up rules saying that no one person can use it more than X times in their life. Maybe you rotate through several different ones over your lifetime so that you don't let your training go to waste and you won't turn to smoke because you aren't just making smoke only. It's only a death sentence if you continually use it many times over a long period of time. I had never really taken notice of your quoted section of tWoK before though. I think that is an important point and you have provided a few good quotes on the topic. This and your other quote feel like they could be Sanderson's way of saying, "I don't know exactly how this works, I don't want soulcasters to be too good, so I'm putting some limits on them. Don't think about it too much, just know that they are limited and that's why the entire economy is not just based on them." From his Writing Excuses podcasts, we know that he does put a lot of thought into how the magic would effect the economy of his worlds. It could also be that Shallan is just wrong about this, or the ardents are either lying or lack knowledge about the true capabilities of the soulcasters. She is an unreliable narrator for sure. That said though, I'm coming more toward your view that we probably just don't know enough. If you've found two quotes on this in a short period of time, I've got to imagine there are a dozen more limitations on soulcasters that are mentioned periodically throughout the series that we are not thinking about right now. Thinking about the Rosharan economy is just interesting to me, so that's why I'm even discussing the topic.

I think we can look at the overall context of the books and the economy of Roshar to say that it must be more expensive to operate a soulcaster than to obtain the object you want through normal means. If soulcaster use is essentially free (only costs stormlight that is refilled for free at each highstorm and gems essentially never break), then it would make sense for them to be used continuously. Excluding the possible cost of replacing broken gems, it's much easier and cheaper to soulcast things than make them - there is no cost. Yes, they are controlled by the government and there are a limited number, but there are enough out there to do significantly more than what is actually being done in the civilian economy. During wartime, it makes sense that the government would take all or most soulcasters for the war effort. During peacetime, they should be making absolutely everything with soulcasters and training up dozens or hundreds of operators to reduce the risk to each individual. It seems like based on what we see of the economy in the books, there are two options: 1) Soulcasters cost more to operate than the cost of making their products under normal circumstances due to their cost in shattered gems. Only wartime and other special situations make them practical to use. 2) Soulcasters are infinite and the government is keeping this a secret so that they can artificially control the economy and prop up certain industries that would be completely out competed by soulcasters. The secret third option is that Sanderson didn't really nitpick this like we did or there is some other aspect in play that we don't know about (actually a good chance this is the true answer).

I agree that the availability of soulcasters is probably the biggest factor in the price of soulcasting. I think separate to that, even if soulcasters were plentiful the soulcasting value of a gemstone would not control its monetary value. The value of 1 broam is greater as money than what it could produce if it were used for soulcasting. I also agree that the value of the money/gems is not tied to the value of what they can create by soulcasting, but I don't think your idea makes sense economically. Think about it - if one gem could produce many times its value in some type of good then you would see the intelligent people of the world immediately taking any money they get and having someone soulcast it, then sell whatever they soulcast for a profit. You could argue that the people who control the soulcasters know this and intentionally control their use to keep the price of all goods high, but it feels like we would have at least some hint that this was going on after 3 books. If it's really that bad, I think this would be a significant plot point at some point in the books. This isn't just making a little money by keeping supply of one good artificially low like the diamond market in the real world, this is denying people the Star Trek replicator that can make them anything they want for free. People could have had whatever they want for essentially free if people used the soulcasters to their potential, but nobles/clergy/corporate fat cats kept people starving and deprived so they could make more money.

I don't think it makes sense to say that the value of gemstones used for money directly correlate to what they can produce in a soulcaster. That doesn't seem to line up with the way the Rosharan economy is shown to be working. If the value of gemstones is the value of their soulcasting (i.e. 1 emerald brohm can produce a total amount of food by soulcasting that costs 1 emerald brohm to buy on the market), then it would not make sense to ever make anything that can be soulcast by any means other than soulcasting. It's much easier to soulcast a piece of marble than it is to mine it out of the ground and people are not going to do extra work they don't need to do. You might see the wealthy paying for the exotic "natural" goods, while the poor would live on the cheap and lower quality soulcast goods. People would work in soulcasting factories rather than mines and farms. Instead, you see the opposite. The rich pay extra for exotic soulcasting, while the poor use the baseline natural goods. I believe the way the economy works is that only certain large gemstones are very effective at soulcasting and can produce a lot more before breaking than what their value would be if it was just based on them being the next biggest size gem with a proportional price increase. The price of these special gemstones is set specifically based on their soulcasting ability. The rest of the gemstones produce significantly less than their value before breaking, their price is set based on the economy. The real world analogue to this is that the price of gold and silver are much higher than their actual utilitarian value in things like electric wiring which is why we use copper for most wiring rather than gold even though gold is more effective. People probably do use the smaller gems in soulcasting because of the convenience factor, like you said. It's more cost effective and/or worth the extra price to have a soulcaster and burn up the smaller gems than to bring a huge supply train on a military campaign. The idea that soulcasting usually costs more than "natural" production lines up with how it's shown in the economy of the books - a luxury reserved for the rich or only used in a time of need like during war. Another alternative that would explain the scarcity of soulcasting in the Roshar economy is that the price of having something soulcasted is mostly in the usage charge for the soulcaster itself. Maybe soulcasters are so scarce that even though they can produce 1 for 1 value or better for any gemstone, the people using them can charge huge convenience fees. Another possibility is that the pool of people who have the ability or desire to use soulcasters is so low that their labor price makes up the majority of the cost. You do get the sense that the regular people of the world and even minor nobles don't have access to soulcasters very often. It seems like there are a very limited number of them that are used for the highest ranking people in society and their needs such as supplying their armies. Now, as far as the actual scheme Linn Davar was doing, I think it was the Rosharan version of money laundering. I still think you are right that what he is doing does not make economic sense in a normal, above board market. Mined marble would probably have value and exist in the market because it is probably more cost efficient or just simply available to more people to use mined marble for very large projects like marble floors of palaces, columns, etc. Mined marble is almost certainly priced lower than soulcast marble, so he is probably taking a loss on every sale. That's where the money laundering comes in. Linn Davar is essentially converting gems from the Ghostbloods that were probably obtained through illegal means into many gems that have a "legitimate" source. You can take a loss in money laundering and consider it the price of business. Or, alternatively if the value is in the soulcaster itself he's using a stolen soulcaster at below market rates for soulcasting but still turning a profit because there was so much margin there in the above board market.

Yeah, no need to go into a full on discussion and jack the thread. Just thought it was interesting. Threatening to destroy (or severely punish) his followers if they disobey is also par for the course of the "divine hatred" aspect of a god of just about any religion we have in the real world though.

I think the WOB you just quoted is very interesting. But doesn't it sort of contradict one of your pet peeves regarding Odium? This WOB directly states that Odium has a valid argument to say that he does represent all emotion (Passion) rather than simply hatred. It says that the names of many of the shards aren't really precise. For example - Sanderson says that Honor actually represents a sense of being bound by rules. This includes things that many people would consider dishonorable such as following rules or laws that are immoral (see the Skybreakers). So, you could really say that Honor the shard does not truly represent "honor" the concept. If he did, then he would not include things that a reasonable person could consider dishonorable. You could definitely argue that Honor is more "honorable" than "dishonorable," but it's still too simplistic to just call him Honor if you want to accurately describe what his shard represents. It seems likely based on this WOB that it's also too simplistic to just call Odium hate. The implication was that the name of his shard was given by all the other shards based on what they perceived him to be. They disliked the true and objective intent of his shard and therefore named him in a way that has a negative connotation (odium -> odious) the way they did with Ruin. Most likely, Odium is not exactly "hate" in the same way that Honor is not exactly "honor." It's just that his actual, objectively described intent does tend to lead to hate more often than not. So, maybe it's not a meaningful distinction. I'm wondering, based on the descriptions of various gods in real world religious history, if his "God's own divine hatred" description means that like many gods in many religions throughout history (particularly ancient religions) he loves his followers and hates all others.

Personally, I think that's a stretch. Vorinism reads like an adaption of real life religions (past and present), similar to just about every other religion that exists in a fantasy novel. Do a good job at what you do and you will be rewarded in the afterlife is a very common theme in religions around the world all the way back to ancient times. A fight in a spiritual realm among divine beings to defeat evil is also a common theme in religions. Vorinism also does not say that you will die again and again once you've risen from the dead the first time. I took this section to mean that once you die and rise again, you will have eternal life similar to the heaven in western religions though it doesn't specifically say that. So I wouldn't say it's exactly like what is happening to the Fused. You might still be right though, interesting find.

That seems like the most positive way of interpreting it. Nale's statement of the Fifth Ideal "I am the Law" seemed more ominous in the context of the order as we saw it in the books. It struck me more like what a corrupt politician or police officer would say when someone confronts them. "I'm breaking the law? I AM the law." If they reach the 5th Ideal, they are essentially saying they themselves are the law and therefore cannot be held to any standard by others. There are probably skybreakers who lean both in the positive and negative direction.

Most likely because that just isn't how it seems to work. Is there any case where any hopeful Radiant has just gone out to find a spren, asked them for a bond, and then shook hands and gotten together? Every bond we have seen (other than possibly the Skywatchers) has been formed by a person acting in a certain way and with certain qualities that attracts a spren. The spren is always the initiator. I would argue even with the Skywatchers, their actions attract the spren but the other human Skywatchers forbid them from forming the bond until they've reached a certain amount of progress. I'm with you in the sense that there should and probably will be progress between OB and Book 4. I think a lot of Radiants will show up and they will actively be trying to make progress in other areas. I just don't think we're going to come back and find that they've developed a super weapon, or solved one of the huge fundamental mysteries that was left unsolved at the end of OB. That would suck as a reader, missing out on a fundamental change in the world. For example, let's say they discover (if this is true/accurate) that aluminum could stop a shard blade or maybe they invent a shard blade fabrial. If that just appears on the scene when we come in during Book 4 then we don't get to consider the strategic implications with Dalinar, the logistics of getting enough of it to make a difference in the war with Navani and Jasnah, etc. You lose those discoveries as plot points and just get them as power ups. To me, that's much less interesting. I'd rather them fight with the powers they have than introduce something radical and new off screen. I would much rather we see something like an early scene where they talk about testing the powers of aluminum that then develops into them figuring out how to actually use it effectively over the course of the book as sort of a C or D plot that's going on in the background. As far as the in world reason for why they wouldn't have made huge discoveries, I think they have a lot of other things to be doing. They have made a loose coalition in a few months, but they need to hammer out more formal alliances, assign duties and expectations for the various nations and other people in the coalition. They need to figure out how to get everyone organized and fighting as a unified front against the Fused. They also need to determine their grand strategy for how to defeat Odium. My guess is that in this year we will find that they've been out looking for things, working on research, etc, but they will not be done with it when we see them again. They might be at a stage where they are testing some things and trying to work out the final bugs, we may learn about a few failed expeditions or things they've done with limited success. Anyway, just my two cents and what I would like to see.

I agree there's no way they've just sent someone to bond the Nightwatcher. For one, I don't think they necessarily know that the Nightwatcher is a spren and/or one of the Bondsmith spren. For another (more important, imo) it's not like you can just send someone to walk up to the Nightwatcher and say "Hey pal, please let me bond you!" This has to be a huge and significant event, similar to Dalinar bonding the Stormfather. This would be the same with the "Sibling." The only chance I see of the Nightwatcher or Sibling being bonded off screen is if a complete outsider who is unknown to our main heroes is to show up as sort of a rival to Dalinar who has been living somewhere far away (maybe one of the Shin?) who has totally different ideas as to how the Knights Radiant should operate. Then, it would make sense and that person would have been sort of a parallel Dalinar who was rising up in another part of the world. I also think it is likely there will be a lot more Radiants in Urithiru by the time Book 4 rolls around. We are going to have to get to the point where we don't learn about every single Radiant individually and it seems like that point makes sense to be now. There are something like 5-10 radiants in Urithiru now, I expect by the time of Book 4 there will be 50-100. I would guess that most of the orders will have at least a few members showing up similar to how Malata showed up with only a little introduction introducing the Dustbringer order. There may be a few orders where the Spren are intentionally holding back and not allowing themselves to bond. I think one possible plot of Book 4 could be an investigation into why some orders of Radiants are starting to populate while others aren't.

I do like a lot of SA characters, but not that many of them have the same kind of arc as Venli (at least the one I'm assigning her in my head). What is interesting to me is a character who does something that is wrong with good intentions that are very logically sound and believable, who then comes to realize through reflection and observation that they made a mistake and changes their ways at least somewhat. What makes it even more interesting to me is when their goals and motivations don't line up with what we think the "good guys" are supposed to be doing. If they can find a way to be no longer evil, but still not in alignment with what the main heroes want, then that is the best situation for me. I think Venli has a lot of potential for this - she's not going to be down with another desolation that ends in the humans defeating the Parsh/Singers and sealing up the fused for another few years. She will probably have her own motivations and goals and will be trying to bring the rest of the team around. I think this is where I differ from a lot of fans - many people want the villains to be villains and the heroes to be heroes, or they like the grimdark type genre where no one is really a hero and everyone is just a different degree of bad, but I like to have people in the plot who are good people with their own motivations that don't align with the heroes. Kaladin and Dalinar are the only others in SA I would argue fit the mold, and both are only partial fits - Dalinar didn't necessarily think the bad things he was doing were morally right while he was doing them, just that they were his duty and he was addicted to the thrill, though he feels bad about them now. Kaladin felt that what he did was right and now has changed his mind, but it's not necessarily true that what he did was wrong, just inconvenient and needlessly inflexible aside from the Elhokar plot. For the sake of this discussion, contrast that with Eshonai: She pretty much sticks with conventional wisdom the whole way through. She believes it's wrong for the Parshendi to return to their old gods and consistently works toward that goal the entire time. She is never really does anything that could be considered morally wrong by anyone, though she does make mistakes. Her actions are in alignment with what we as readers expect from a hero. She reluctantly agrees to go to storm form to try to spare the rest of the people from that fate, not realizing that doing so will warp her mind. Then she dies. She doesn't have a bad story at all and I do like her as a character, but she doesn't fit the mold of what I consider the most interesting character type. In Mistborn only the Lord Ruler could really be described as falling under that type of category. He does something he thinks is right, but it's implied that he reflects over time that he probably made a mistake. Though even he doesn't really fit the mold because he never really comes all the way around and continues on committing atrocities in the name of what he thinks is the greater good. It still makes him an interesting character. The other characters either never do something bad beyond a momentary lapse (Vin, Elend, etc) or never acknowledge that some of the things they did were wrong, even if they were done with good motivation (Kelsier).

Fair enough - I'm willing to admit it's been a while since I've read Venli's POVs. Maybe I'm the one assigning her a less petty motivation out of my own imagination. I guess my point is that I think if we see Venli's early life, prior to any influence from Odium or Voidspren, we will see a different Venli and only then will we know her true motivation. I believe her true motivation is that she wanted to obtain power to protect her people or maybe just to advance the power and capabilities of the Parshendi overall if it was prior to the Alethi threat. She probably did this for partially selfish reasons - the glory of being the one who discovers the new abilities - but not total selfishness or a desire to keep the power to herself. This might be wrong, the flashbacks will probably tell us for sure one way or another. I think that once Venli had been influenced by the voidspren and Odium, everything she did was compromised until she realized later on that she had been influenced. This influence started before we ever see her on screen and only ended partway through OB, so it includes her interactions with Dalinar. It's fair enough if you don't like Venli or think she's uninteresting. She's just interesting to me because she is someone who is starting to be reflective and understand that what she did may not have been the correct choice and that the results she thought would be good were actually bad. I like those kinds of characters, probably more than most people.

I feel like again, you are reading your own views into this. Where does it say, in the books (aside from Eshonai's personal opinions) that Venli merely wanted power? Yes, she did sacrifice her people's beliefs and culture for what she felt was a good reason. Not her own personal power, but power for her people as a whole. She believed her people needed this power to survive - they were being slowly whittled away in battles on the Shattered Plains as they lost to the humans little by little. What I'm talking about here are Venli's initial motivations to being searching for the forms of power, not what she did after she was heavily influenced by Odium. You also have to keep in mind that Venli (like Dalinar in his flashbacks) is under the influence of Odium once she goes into storm form. Eshonai has the same reaction - she starts doing things that would have been out of character for her prior to the change. Similar to Dalinar in his flashbacks, it took a significant event to shock her into realizing that what she had done was wrong and not in keeping with who she was. Prior to that, Odium was twisting her initial motivations (desire to protect her people and to get vengeance for their deaths at the hands of the humans) into ways that caused her to act out of character. This part is probably me making educated guesses about Venli, but I think they are reasonable guesses that can definitely be proven right or wrong if Venli is a flashback character in Book 4. I don't think her motivations being fear make what she did any less interesting. Less noble, sure. But not less interesting. In real life, many changes in society are caused by fear of an existential threat just like what Venli feared. I do agree that Venli did not have any idea that her actions would free the Parshmen - that's why I referred to it as an unintended consequence. I also agree that as of now, she does not care that she did it. But, I do believe that in Book 4 she will realize that she should care about them. I also believe that regardless of what Venli herself thinks now or in the future, to the overall plot of the book freeing the Parshmen will be a positive and good deed. You can argue that it holds no merit for Venli since she didn't intend to do that, and that's fair.

I feel like you've read a lot more into Eshonai than many people have, or at least than I personally have. I have nothing against Eshonai, but I see her plot (that has occurred on screen) as pretty equivalent, but slightly less interesting than Venli's. Half of the things you describe as Eshonai's plot took place prior to tWoK and are recapped in a few paragraphs in the OB prologue. In my view, that doesn't count. On screen, we do see her struggle vs. Venli for the future path of the Parshendi people. We know, being the omniscient readers, that Eshonai is right about seeking the old Parshendi gods, but Venli and Eshonai themselves don't actually know that. I honestly consider her and Venli to be pretty similar in terms of character development. I think you're also doing a disservice to Venli by calling her selfish. That is Eshonai's belief, because she has a different view on what is best for the Parshendi than Venli does. Venli believes they need power to defeat the humans and makes sacrifices to get it, while Eshonai believes that having the power is worse than being defeated and wiped out as a people. Venli is not being selfish, she's simply trying to look out for her people's survival in a different way than Eshonai. To me, it also makes her a more interesting character because she is challenging tradition and conventional wisdom. She's trying to evaluate the world as it is and find her place in it rather than just fitting in with what she's been told. Let's not forget that she did also accomplish the good of freeing the Parshmen from their mental slavery. The regular parsh are good people who have now gained the ability to think for themselves thanks to Venli's actions. That seems to be a major theme that is going to carry throughout the book and is a major plot in Kaladin's arc. The people we think are our enemies may not actually be our enemies - not in a crappy "I defeated this guy and now he's come over to the good side" way, but in an interesting "We're fighting right now, but we never really thought about why we were fighting. Should we actually be doing this?" kind of way where the answer is different for different people. Her actions had unintended consequences both good and bad.

I do think you're right in terms of Sanderson's thinking, but I also agree with Argel in the sense that I believe the story suffers for it, at least through the three books we have. Brandon needed/planned for Szeth to be part of the big battle at the end of OB and probably struggled to figure out how he could realistically do that while also keeping OB to a reasonable size. The situation wasn't -totally- illogical: Szeth showed up at a time of need when Dalinar pretty much had to take all comers. Then, after the fact Dalinar does sort of an object lesson type of thing where he tells Szeth he needs to accept punishment for his crimes. Probably sort of a test - like you will be able to leave jail once you're ready kind of a thing. I still think the story suffers a bit though - in a perfect world Szeth would have had a really cool story arc for how he gets back with the main team. Sort of like how both Shallan and Kaladin had cool story arcs for joining up with the Kholins. Neither of them were able to just show up one day and become buddies with the Kholins, they had to prove themselves in various ways so that it felt really natural for them to all become friends/family/allies. It may be that he still will have a good story arc. I'm glad to hear this latest WOB because it does seem like he has a good plan in mind. Maybe once all the first 5 books are out, we'll be more satisfied with Szeth's arc.

I don't think we necessarily -have- to go that route with a Herald POV. The Heralds aren't going to necessarily be thinking or talking about their past. They seem to be either too crazy (Taln) or too unwilling (everyone else) to talk about it. I'm not saying its necessarily likely, but they could have POVs without revealing too much in terms of Roshar history or the Cosmere. I personally prefer the Heralds and think a POV from them is more likely than a Vasher or Vivenna POV. Not that I dislike either of those characters, but I don't want Warbreaker becoming too much a part of Stormlight Archive. It's a cool easter egg when they're relatively minor characters and if they build up as part of the overall plot of Roshar I'm OK with them taking a bigger role over time. I don't want them to jump in and continue their plots from Warbreaker just with a new background. From my perspective, I split up Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin because I felt like having the three of them together again on what will probably be another desperate undercover mission against heavy odds would be sort of a rehash of OB. I do think Adolin and Shallan will have their interactions in the early part of the book as things get going, but after that everyone will be too busy doing what needs to be done for much else. I also think Shallan has several of her own goals (Ghostbloods, her family, etc) that will lead her in a different direction than the main group. Just my two cents though, who knows what will actually happen.

More for curiosity than anything - what do you what to see from Eshonai that you haven't seen already? We've already seen her perspective of the treaty and Gavilar's murder, we've also already seen her perspective on the forms. Is it just that you like her as a character and want to see more pages written from her perspective? That's totally cool if that's the case.

It's been a while since I read OB, but I don't remember getting that impression. It seemed more like confusion and uncertainty about Nale and the Skybreakers, who were telling him that he hadn't done anything wrong - in fact according to their moral value system he had done exactly what was right. That said, it's been about two years since I read the book and I could easily be remembering wrong.