agrabes

I just want to be clear, I don't personally ship Jasnah and Kaladin together. I agree with you that there is no real reason to believe Jasnah is interested in Kaladin. I'm just trying to come up with a way that I could personally enjoy it as a plot arc if they did get together. I really don't think that anything has to happen with Gavinor. Most likely he will not get much if any more screen time at least in the first five books. I am only mentioning him because his parenting could be a possible reasonable way for Jasnah and Kaladin to spend time together if things were to go that way. Even if it did go that way, the arc is not really going to be about Gavinor and he would only be a very minor part in it. I agree that Gavinor doesn't absolutely need a father figure to be raised. Plenty of children have been raised successfully without fathers. But, (real world) data shows that children tend to do better statistically if they have a positive male role model in their life that can spend time with them. I'm going to assume that this is also true in the Cosmere. As a person who thinks with logic and analysis, Jasnah is likely to recognize this and make sure that any child she raises has a positive male role model. There's no reason it has to be Kaladin. It could be Dalinar if he has time, or if Gavinor is pretty much just raised off screen then it could be any random background person. I'm sure there are plenty of good men that Jasnah knows that aren't important to the story so they stay off screen. Renarin is a good person, but wouldn't be a great role model for a king based on his personality type. The same with Adolin - he's a good person but doesn't really have a king's temperament - he refused to be king after all. Kaladin does, so does Dalinar. So again, I don't think it will go this way but it wouldn't be crazy if Jasnah did ask Kaladin to be a father figure or positive male role model for Gavinor. You seem to have really strong feelings about Jasnah as a character, but I don't. In my view, right now she is just one of several secondary characters. I believe she is fine on her own and also fine with someone else. Based on comments from others in this thread about Kaladin's love life I'm just engaging in a hypothetical scenario to see if in my own mind there is a reasonable way she could get together with Kaladin. In my view, it's possible, but unlikely.

This was what I was going at when I first mentioned it. If Kaladin and Jasnah are to get together there has to be a significant plot event to make it so they actually get to know each other. Though I think you are all looking at it from the perspective of Kaladin -guarding- Gavinor. That was not the perspective I was looking at it from. Gavinor has lost his parents in a traumatic fashion. Most likely, he will be raised by either Jasnah, Dalinar, or Adolin as next of kin. For the sake of figuring out ways that Kaladin and Jasnah might spend time together, I assumed that Jasnah will be the one to raise him as his adoptive mother. This would make sense considering that she is Queen and he is the heir to the throne, so she would want to have the decision making power in how he is raised. Following from that, Jasnah is an intelligent person. She is going to want a strong father figure for the boy that conforms to her ideals of how a king should act. It's reasonable to think she might choose Kaladin - he's intelligent, morally sound, and probably less busy than Dalinar. He's also got that strong nurturing and protective tendency, making him a good father figure. Adding all these things up, you could see that it would be a reasonable possibility that Jasnah might ask Kaladin to stand in as a father figure for Gavinor to help teach him how to grow into a good man capable of ruling the kingdom someday. Then, add in the shipping interest. I think we all agree that as of right now Kaladin doesn't have any romantic interest in Jasnah. The people who ship Jasnah/Kaladin would argue that she has shown some interest in him. If they are right and Jasnah is interested in Kaladin romantically, that adds another reason for her to try to get him to spend time with her. It would actually be a classic romance plot - people forced to act like they're in a relationship by various circumstances while one has a crush on the other and secretly wants the relationship to be real. It gives Jasnah a chance to open up a little bit and show her more sentimental side. I think it could be a fun side story if it were to happen. In reality though, this is all speculation. I don't think it's super likely for something like this to happen just because it would have to take up a ton of screen time to be done well. I think Sanderson is not going to want to focus on this kind of story in SA4 and SA5.

Is that right though? I don't recall Kaladin being made captain of Jasnah's guard, just like he was not captain of Elhokar's guard. He was captain of Dalinar's guard and sometimes assigned to protect Elhokar. With the changing roles of the Alethi government vs. the Knights Radiant, I got the strong impression Kaladin was no longer pulling regular guard duty as of early/mid Oathbringer. I could be totally off on this, but I seriously don't remember any implication that Kaladin would be regularly guarding Jasnah. Not that it couldn't happen, just that there's no reason we should expect that it does.

I do agree with your perspective of what love is - not a feeling but a decision, a commitment, and an active effort. I just don't see that any of that was built up in the Shallan/Adolin plot. Throughout WoR and most of OB the relationship was sort of coasting along based on expectations of the engagement and not based on deep feelings or emotions for each other. It also did not seem like either had a strong desire to be married to each other for less romantic reasons like family honor, etc. They enjoyed each other's company and were physically attracted to each other, but never seemed like a pair that would have gotten together if it weren't for the fact that they were in an arranged engagement for political reasons before they ever met. Shallan in particular seemed to care very little about her relationship and seemed to place it very low on her priority list. She was never against it, but she was never trying to actively advance the relationship either. The sudden choice of getting married which Shallan seemed to justify to herself based on deep feelings that Adolin was the one for her felt out of place. There weren't any strong feelings shown on screen except in one scene and really only from Adolin's side. It felt wrong and unearned to me. Had Shallan's choice been justified based on the fact that she believes marrying Adolin is the right thing to do based on all the logical reasons (politics, already engaged, etc) and that they enjoy each other's company and can make the marriage work, then great. That would have felt right and in context. I didn't get that sense. By contrast, Kaladin's feelings toward Shallan were well developed and built up slowly. They were not simply placed together before they ever met, Kaladin made the active choice to pursue her at a meaningful cost to himself (at least in terms of romance) and developed feelings toward her completely of his own accord. Shallan never had romantic feelings for Kaladin and that was also well written. She actually actively thought about him and figured out how she felt over time on multiple occasions. But, now that a month has passed on this one, I'll just say to each their own on this. Different people pick up on different things and it seems like to some people they felt like there were a lot of hints and clues that Adolin and Shallan really wanted to be together. I never got that sense, but that could just be my own tastes. As for the Jasnadin ship, I can't say I'm on board. Jasnah just seems like someone who is uninterested in romance. I also have never had any sense of any kind of attraction from Kaladin to Jasnah. You could argue a possible interest from Jasnah's side, though that's still a stretch. I think they will become friends, but the significant age gap and the fact that their roles in society will probably keep them from spending much time together makes it feel like romance is unlikely. Who knows though, we may find out that in the year gap from OB to SA4 the two of them have been working together to raise Gavinor and spend tons of time together. I could see it working under the right circumstances, but think it's pretty unlikely. I'd rather both of them end up alone than in a situation where they are shoehorned together just because they need to have a romantic partner.

This was the point I was trying to get out, thanks for finding the WoB on it. Kaladin thinks things are worse than they are because he's had one of the worst experiences of anyone in terms of betrayal and losing things he has earned because of class/eye color prejudice. There's definitely systematic problems out there, but I take Alethkar as something like Europe during the early phases of the enlightenment. We have absolute rulers with way too much power over people and they are just now starting to realize that peasants and people like serfs in particular are being impacted way more than they think. Now that they are understanding more about philosophy they are realizing that the serfs aren't just going to be happy to be locked down to the land. So, over time things are changing (slowly) for the positive for the lower classes and darkeyes can and do have independent power similar to the bourgeouise of 1600/1700 Europe. However, just like the Europe of that time, in the military old habits die hard and you've got a lot of the nobility who perceive themselves as having a god given right to command troops even when they are terrible at it when in the rest of society the lower classes are being rewarded for their skill and starting to get ahead. Anyway, good discussion on this topic. These kinds of things are interesting to me - the society, rights and laws, and the economy. I think Sanderson puts a lot into this stuff, more than we know.

I think it's fair to say that Elhokar in particular was biased. The argument I'm making though (and I probably haven't articulated this very well) is that while it is true that by rule/law the highest darkeyes is lower than the lowest lighteyes, in practice that is not the case. It's pointed out in the books that there are plenty of light eyes who are just as low as darkeyes and in a lot of cases worse off than the middle to upper darkeyes. Kaladin meets them in WoK and is amazed because he always assumed that even though he knew there were lower ranked lighteyes, he had always assumed before that even the lowest of them still got special privileges. When he got to the war camps, he saw the lower ranked lighteyes in conditions nearly as bad as his. At least, that's what my memory is telling me, haven't looked at the books in while. If you want to go to the military example, the youngest commissioned officer straight out of training technically out ranks the most senior and highest ranking non-commissioned officer. However, don't expect that new Lieutenant to be able to order around a Sergeant Major. It's not shown directly in the books and I may be reading too far between the lines here, but it seems to be implied that there are plenty of dark eyes in positions of power and respect in their own right. They may not be allowed to be political rulers or military commanders, but in wider society they are powerful through their economic power and their skills or knowledge (such as Kaladin's father). Kaladin is not one of these darkeyes, among darkeyes he is the lowest of the low due to his reputation as a rebellious slave which everyone can immediately see because of his brands. In WoR, he was made the captain of Dalinar's bodyguards which gives him (for a dark eyes) a high military rank but not a high reputation and class in society because his reputation was so badly tarnished before. He's seen as a sign of Dalinar's madness - promoting a former slave who was totally undeserving (in their eyes, who know nothing about who Kaladin really is or what he has really done) to the captain of his guard. My argument here is that if there was a darkeyes who did not have Kaladin's history, who had been a model citizen and earned the rank of Captain, that darkeyes would have been treated differently than Kaladin because his/her social status would have been much higher. The legend/tradition that Adolin quoted is probably not absolute. It says that any lighteyed warrior could do this, but I don't believe that a lighteyed warrior who has a low social status and no prior relationship with the King would be granted a boon. I also think that a darkeyed warrior could have been allowed a boon, if that warrior was viewed very highly by the king and enough of the highlords. So, while Kaladin did get in trouble, I think that a low ranking lighteyes would have gotten in similar trouble. I think that "high ranking" darkeyes would have gotten in less trouble than Kaladin did for pulling the same stunt.

Even the sections you highlighted seem to suggest otherwise though. It wasn't primarily because a darkeyes challenged a lighteyes. It was based primarily on the fact that someone from among the lower classes was rising above his station. I would also point out that Elhokar is shown to be one of the more "eye discriminating" members of the Alethi leadership. Dalinar points out that he and other leaders had to correct Elhokar on this with the example of Roshone's banishment. I wouldn't use Elhokar as an example of the culture at large, he's described as a petulant child who was given everything by his father. He's the kind of King who doesn't understand the importance and responsibilities of his position, only the power and privilege. He starts to learn better in OB, but he never makes it all the way. Also, the reason why what other people know and don't know is important is because it informs us on the context of the reactions of the general ruling class of Alethkar. Is the entire group (all lighteyes) extremely biased against the darkeyes? Or is it just a few? We can say that Elhokar is bad, but even he isn't extremely terrible specifically in terms of this issue. If all the lighteyes knew that Kaladin was falsely accused, if they knew his true role and ability and they still sided with Elhokar then (and only then) could we say that most lighteyes or the culture as a whole is extremely oppressive. It seems unlikely that anyone other than Elhokar, Dalinar, and Adolin knew that Kaladin was anything other than a former slave with an attitude problem. Elhokar knew less than Dalinar and Adolin, but still knew enough. Complaints Based on Eye Color: I still don't agree with letting a dark eyes duel Shardbearers Complaints Not Based on Eye Color: He insulted a highlord in front of the entire court" He dared challenge a man so high above his station, the gap between them could hold a kingdom Common soldiers challenging our highest and most important generals? It is madness putting a slave in charge of our guard It is punishment for slandering a highlord Anyway, not that this is a hill I want to die on. I'm just saying that Alethi society, while discriminatory, is not as bad as other societies that Sanderson has written (The Lord Ruler, Steelheart, etc). Alethi society is more like "Enlightened Despotism" - all powerful ruling class that holds all the privilege in society, but most of them genuinely try to do what they think is best for the lower classes. The only problem is, they're so far removed they don't understand what is best and they end up doing bad things anyway.

He did save the Kholins, but that's probably not widely known or at least not widely believed. That's why I say that Adolin and Dalinar should (and do) stick up for him, but no one else is going to. The rest of the nobility/lighteyes are not going to believe reports that a former slave darkeyes is the one saving everyone. Even if Dalinar was telling everyone about it (which I'm not sure he did) people thought he was half crazy. Kaladin fought well in the arena and had he not done what he did he would have probably built up a much better reputation for himself after that. He wouldn't have won everyone over, but he would have started the process. Instead, he got impatient. Adolin is a person in the highest class of the society who is also well liked by everyone because he is so good in the arena. He is definitely going to get his chance to win the boon. Kaladin is a nobody with everything going against him except for his performance in this duel who has called out one of the lighteyes who has the best reputation and is one of the most well liked. Kaladin as an individual in his actions made things worse. I wouldn't guarantee that any other darkeyes would have been able to get the boon of a duel with Amaram because that is too high a bar, but if they had asked for a different boon I think they would have gotten it. I also don't think that if some random lower lighteyes asked for a duel with Amaram or Sadeas that they would have gotten it. My point is that while lighteyes vs. darkeyes did play a factor there are other factors that played a much bigger part in the ultimate results.

I think we probably feel about the same way about the incident - I wouldn't say I lost respect for Kaladin there but I was not happy with what he did. It was good writing by Sanderson though - it definitely felt in character for Kaladin to do what he did. I personally did expect him to get thrown in jail or otherwise severely punished for what he did. I wouldn't put it quite that this was strictly a darkeyes vs. lighteyes thing or lighteyes hypocrisy. It's not that a darkeyes talking in a loud voice to a lighteyes would get them jailed or beheaded. I think it's that Kaladin is a person with a very checkered past in the official records - made a slave, then given the shash brand for being dangerous and leading armed revolts, eventually being put on a bridge crew for Sadeas' army. We know that he was falsely accused, betrayed, etc but other than Dalinar, Adolin, and the crew of Bridge 4 no one else knows or has even been told the true story. So, if you were the average lighteyes and suddenly a darkeyed former slave stands up and tries to piggy back on Adolin Kholin's duel victory while accusing Meridas Amaram who has a very strong reputation at this point in the story, then of course you're going to think that he is just a trouble maker. That's not really lighteyes/darkeyes discrimination, it's just Kaladin's bad reputation working against him. If a lighteyes with similar reputation had done the same thing, I would imagine that he/she would be treated the same way. I would also argue that if a darkeyes with an average or good reputation had done what Kaladin did, especially against someone other than Amaram, then they would not have been thrown in jail.

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine, but why do you choose to call Gavilar a misogynist rather than a sexist? This probably isn't something about you in particular, since in popular culture over the last several years this has also been done. A misogynist means a person who hates women. This is the term you use for a wife beater or someone who lives their life consumed with hatred and conspiracy theories about women. Gavilar doesn't seem to fit this description. A sexist means a person who discriminates based on sex. Gavilar does show some possible tendencies of this, such as choosing to pass on his inheritance through the male line and of seemingly underestimating Navani's intelligence. Though I also think all of those things you mentioned are circumstantial. He doesn't ID his daughter as a Radiant - we don't know for sure that he doesn't, we also don't know what level of interaction he has with his daughter. It may be that he rarely sees either of his children due to his duties as king and therefore has no real chance to see this. That would make him a neglectful father, but not a sexist or misogynist. He chose Elhokar despite Jasnah being the better choice in terms of capability - This is likely a sexist choice based on societal biases and cultural norms (women were likely not easily accepted as political rulers, we see very few in Alethkar) though you could also take Isilel's argument and say he wanted to name her but felt he couldn't for political stability reasons. His behavior toward Navani is not good - This could be sexism or even true misogyny, or it could be a personal grudge or dislike toward Navani as an individual. We don't know enough about their relationship to say.

That depends on your goals and the political climate of the nation and the world. Sure, no one has just said "Here, have some rights." But sometimes, if you say "Hey, please give me some rights," they actually give them to you. Or, you can use the system to become powerful and use your own power to influence things for the good. I could list real world examples of how the path of moderate reform has succeeded and how the path of radical revolution has failed or succeeded in a pyrrhic victory where the nation is destroyed and can't recover economically for decades or even centuries, but that gets away from the point I'm trying to make related to the SA and WoR. If you have radical views and goals that are far out of line with the prevailing attitude of the establishment, then yes the only way you can successfully achieve your goal is to be extreme and radical. Sometimes your cause is just, moderate reform has been tried and failed, and civil disobedience is the the way you have to go like Ghandi or the American civil rights movement. That's not the situation for Kaladin. 1) Kaladin's goals have never been to liberate the darkeyes from the oppressive reign of the lighteyes. He resents the way he has personally been treated and believes the lighteyes are mostly bad people, but he has never expressed a desire to overthrow the lighteyes or reform the government so that they no longer have special privileges. It would be out of character for him to start a hunger strike, etc. Also, while it is true that Rosharan society discriminates against people based on eye color and grants privileges to the lighteyes, there is not widespread oppression and abuse of the darkeyes. We see isolated incidences, but those are generally self policed by the other lighteyes (for example, Roshone). It's not just that Sanderson doesn't want to go that dark - in Mistborn the skaa are oppressed much more heavily than the darkeyes of SA. So the situation is bad, but not so bad as to be unbearable. Frankly, if Kaladin had started a hunger strike it would have felt more like a temper tantrum than a battle for justice. 2) There is a large societal value to political stability (and free or mostly free society) which you are completely discounting. Obviously, sometimes the oppression and injustice is great enough that something needs to be done right away. Haiti pre-revolution is a great example of that - something had to be done right then and there because things were extremely bad and getting worse. But that line is a lot harder to define than you are making out and it's not just the suffering of the unfortunate vs. the comfort of the moderates that is being balanced, it's the possible suffering of the nation as a whole for several decades or even centuries that can come after a civil war. 3) That is why both Kaladin and Dalinar accept the imprisonment even though neither likes it - both are wise enough to see that the value of keeping the government stable is much greater than the hurt pride of one darkeyed soldier. Dalinar had the power and continued to work to get Kaladin free legally. Dalinar has worked to make gradual positive changes in the Alethi society throughout all three books and has been successful with minimal negatives. That's the model I prefer to see.

If you look at this WoB it's directly stating that the names of the shards are often not accurate or objective. They are often charged with unflattering (or overly flattering) connotations based on how people perceive them. Ruin would be more objectively called Entropy, Preservation more objectively Stasis. Odium's shard name is again likely to have been given a charged connotation based on how people feel about it. He may not truly be "Passion" but he is also almost certainly not "Odium" (from the word odious - extremely unpleasant or distasteful) either. The description of Odium as "God's own divine hatred" is from a character who we know almost nothing about in canon and what little we do know is that he merely believes that he and Hoid should not intervene in the wars between the shards, not that he doesn't have any opinions or biases about Odium. He could still hate Odium even he doesn't believe he should actively be fighting against him. Odium is much more interesting if he isn't just hate, so I personally hope that's the case. It's also kind of a Sanderson trope that the people we thought were the good guys and the villains aren't exactly who we thought they were at the start. It's possible that Odium is hate, but it's also possible he isn't and it's honestly annoying to say there is absolutely no chance of him being anything other than hate. Every WoB that has been quoted in this thread ends with Sanderson intentionally leaving Odium's true nature up to interpretation.

If that's your belief, then so be it. I don't think anyone can change your mind. I disagree that he is irredeemable or even particularly heinous in terms of successful generals throughout real world history or Rosharan history. If you're the kind of person who can't forgive someone's past crimes, then you're just going to have to deal with it. I personally believe that if someone has sincerely changed his or her self such that they will not repeat the crimes of the past then they should be forgiven. I don't believe that a person who has committed a crime needs to make some kind of restitution before they can be forgiven, but it seems like you do. I believe they can be required to make amends, but that is separate from forgiveness, reformation, and redemption. Leaving out the real world, in this fantasy novel we can see that Dalinar would never commit a war crime again because we can see inside his head. We, as readers, should be able to forgive Dalinar because he has truly changed his ways. The characters in the story should be (and are definitely shown to be) a lot more hesitant and skeptical.

I just never felt much chemistry between Shallan and Adolin - they always felt like friends more than anything. The scenes you talk about where she defends Adolin to Kaladin are more like defending herself and her fellow Lighteyes to Kaladin and trying to get Kaladin to realize he's got this huge chip on his shoulder toward the lighteyes that blinds him to people who are actually good. Shallan thinks Adolin isn't smart enough to keep up with her intellectually - this is shown in multiple scenes and she has this "don't pick on the poor dumb kid" attitude about it where she defends him but also insults/belittles him at the same time. The point I'm getting at is that I think Sanderson intended to show love growing between Shallan and Adolin, but there are a lot of people who just never felt it. Their relationship felt very rote and by the book. The only thing that felt like either of them had strong feelings for each other was Adolin's reaction at the end of OB. I'm not saying their relationship is unrealistic exactly, actually it's probably the most like your average real life romance, but it's not shown in depth and it doesn't make you feel the emotions of either character for each other. I don't disagree that I didn't really want a love triangle in SA, but once it happened I wanted it to be done well. At that point Adolin/Shallan was standard mediocre but passable Sanderson romance, so I was willing to see it shaken up if done well. Kaladin's arc really made you feel his emotions toward Shallan. Throughout WoR he starts to notice her, he gets jealous of her and Adolin when he's assigned to be their guard for the day (though he tell himself it's grumpiness and classism), he has the Chasm scene where he realizes she's a real person who's faced just as much hardship as he has, then he realizes at the end of WoR that he is interested in her but has no opportunity to ever have a relationship with her. Then in OB, Syl convinces him he needs to acknowledge his feelings and take his shot, which fails before he even does it. It's interesting and done really well with subtle writing. The unrequited love story is always the one that speaks to me the most personally though. Then, Sanderson comes in and retcons the whole thing with the "it was just Lightweaver Magic" thing. That wasn't "no unnecessary anguish" that was "no necessary anguish." The guy has spent months thinking about this girl and he just walks away, no hard feelings? If Sanderson wanted to go the "no harm no foul" type route, he should have been walking it back all the way through OB instead of ratcheting up Kaladin's emotions toward Shallan throughout the book, then cutting them all off cold. It really was resolved. Here is the quote from OB: "He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn't be bitter. He didn't feel resignation either. Instead he felt ... agreement?" This is Brandon Sanderson speaking through Kaladin and saying it's done and over. Kaladin has thought in his own mind that he isn't upset and bitter about Shallan and Adolin getting together, he isn't even resigned to the fact that he was the losing ship, he in his own mind feels that those two should have been together and has no sadness or negative feelings about it. The next few paragraphs then go into the Lightweaver magic retcon (Kaladin never really had feelings for her, he was just confused by her lightweaver magic). It's very doubtful that a Kaladin/Shallan romance plot ever returns. If it does, it would have to be Shallan to Kaladin rather than Kaladin to Shallan, which seems super unlikely since Shallan never expressed any serious interest. I don't even think I would want it to return, other than Kaladin having a realistic and short "getting over it" phase which I've already mentioned won't happen because he's already over it. Interesting, didn't know that. Exactly my feelings on Skyward. Yeah, sorry for the mixup on the book title not sure where that came from!

I understand your point about Spensa and agree that aspect is also something that requires a careful approach. Obviously, this is something that can be a problem in real life. I don't have any hints of that kind of situation going on here. I also agree, you're not the only one who feels the way you do regarding romance in general. I'm not trying to make this a shipping thread, but I'll just say this about the Adolin/Shallan relationship. Everything he does with her and everything you list, he could also have done as a completely platonic friend. Their relationship starts out by default as "romantic" in the sense that they have an arranged marriage. Had it not started with the requirement of a marriage, there is a good chance it would have gone down a totally different path. As it is, what was shown on screen was that they were good to each other and probably good for each other, but not that either of them showed any romantic feelings for the other. And there's nothing wrong with that - my own marriage is more on the supportive and loving side than passionate romantic side. But in terms of a romance plot in a work of fiction, the Adolin/Shallan romance left a bit to be desired. The only good part of that arc that felt real and fitting of a romance plot was Adolin's reaction after he feels Shallan would rather be with Kaladin. That was well done, which is why I say Adolin's character was written reasonably well. He also gets more slack because he's a secondary character with less screen time. The point is - the only reason that you would know Adolin and Shallan's relationship is supposed to be romantic outside of the small cluster of scenes when she confirms to him that she wants to be with him rather than Kaladin is that they are betrothed. Adolin never thinks about Shallan when she's not on screen in a romantic way, though again I give the writing of his character slack for this based on his limited screen time. Shallan never thinks of Adolin in a romantic way when he is not around either. She thinks in terms of meeting expectations of both Adolin and his family, raising her own family's circumstances, etc. Again - I'm not saying this in a shipping wars context. I'm using it as a demonstration that I believe Sanderson failed to convey what he wanted in the Adolin/Shallan romance arc. Though, again, staying out of shipping wars territory, if you did dip your toe into that area there could be alternate explanations. Contrast Adolin/Shallan (imo, poorly written) with Wax/Steris (imo, well written). Both are arranged political marriages between people who didn't know each other. I've already talked far too long about Adolin/Shallan, but the difference with Wax/Steris is you really get the sense that the two of them grow a true relationship over the course of the book. Each of them learns to appreciate the other and even makes slight changes to themselves to accommodate their relationship. Steris is thought to be so inflexible and rigid that she will just ruin everything, but she forces herself into the mix of things and proves everyone wrong - especially Wax. She even opens up to Wax about how her feelings and personality restrict her and make it hard for her to interact with everyone else, but that she still has feelings and cares. You just don't get that same sense of shared growth with Shallan and Adolin. With their romance plot, it was mostly a don't show, don't tell. I agree that having a therapist isn't a bad thing, nor does it -necessarily- mean that being happier around someone means you are attracted to them. But, it's one more piece of the puzzle to force Kaladin to admit his feelings. Here is the section I was talking about earlier (Oathbringer Ch. 99): Kaladin doesn't directly admit anything to himself, but he goes to see Shallan right after this. Though he doesn't think it or say it out loud, by going to talk to Shallan he is admitting that Syl is right and he needs more than just his brothers in arms. He then says he feels good and warm inside while being around her, different from other women he's been with in the past. All this is high quality romance plot. In a normal romance (or real life) this would mean that he has feelings for her, different and more profound than he's had for any other woman. That said, rereading some of these sections makes me feel like there's more of a chance than I thought that you are right about Sanderson's intent for the Kaladin/Shallan arc. If so, it just proves again how terrible his romance writing skills are. The best romance arc he's ever written isn't actually a romance arc and he probably never thought of it that way, which is probably why he was able to write it well. But it makes the reader feel cheated. Taking it all at face value (to avoid shipping wars that come with alternate theories), we are supposed to believe that Kaladin never loved Shallan and it was all a trick of the mind from her Lightweaver magic which he realizes in the end and feels better. This is a complete cop out. A love triangle story requires a satisfying conclusion and the fans who hoped for the Kaladin/Shallan pairing should get their chance to feel sad along with Kaladin that it didn't work out. Look at all the popular love triangle stories in Hollywood like Pearl Harbor, Love Actually, or pretty much any rom-com, look at a movie like Castaway, even anime (Macross F ftw) - the "losing" ship always goes out in some kind of satisfying way, never backing down from their feelings. It's usually kind of an uplifting story - they overcome their own shyness or other failures to finally express their true feelings to the one they love and feel better by getting that true, final rejection. It feels super unsatisfying for one ship to just sort of turn around and go back into drydock. I know Sanderson has talked about how he would like to do a love triangle a different way. Maybe this is it - if so, he did not improve on the formula based on the story so far. The original Dalinar/Gavilar/Navani love triangle would have been a decent story, but it was never really told. And that's OK. That was the "real" Dalinar/Navani romance and it felt super unsatisfying and awkward to jump in on that 20+ years in progress. Particularly in WoK when we don't even really know these characters yet and they are having an awkward romance scene while talking about events of the past we don't yet know about or care about. That's why I say it would have been best to make their romance super minimal - Adolin or someone else explains it in passing and gives us a few updates, then we see them together and it's good to go. Anyway, just want to say I definitely respect your opinion on this and leave you the right to it. Heck, in a lot of ways my views are the weird ones. My tastes in romance are probably more "traditional" and I do enjoy romance in movies and tv, but I don't like straight up romance novels even if they are set in an SFF world. For whatever reason, I love it as a secondary plot to traditional SFF. I know a lot of people would rather there is no romance at all in SFF novels so I'm definitely the outlier there. *shrug* I just like it if when it was included it was up to par with other media.

I'm not going to argue with all this because I think a lot of comes down to the fact that your personality and mine are very different if I can get any sense of it through your posts on this board. For example Spensa/Jerkface - Sure commander/subordinate makes things difficult, but it's very common in fiction and real life for romantic relationships to develop in that situation. It makes for a more interesting romance plot too. Your opinion seems to be "that's against the rules so it should never happen!" That's a totally valid opinion to have, but kind of a sad one to have too. I don't disagree that it's totally fine for them -not- to have a romantic relationship and would not be upset or disappointed at all if they don't. But, the seeds are there if that's the way it goes. What I'm saying is that Sanderson has written a really good foundation for a romance to develop, even if it ultimately doesn't. The thought that romance isn't the most important thing on anyone's mind at any given time is a complete personality thing. If you were to pick any random moment out of a person's 80+ years of life, sure the odds aren't great that it would be devoted to romance. But, if you were talking about the key days and months of a lasting relationship being formed then you can bet that a huge percent of that person's mental focus is going to be dedicated to it. At least, for me personally it would be. Based on the romance shown in any popular fiction, I think I'm not alone in that sentiment. In terms of Adolin/Shallan - they absolutely do start spending time together out of obligation. They were socially obligated to spend time together as betrothed. They didn't know each other at all and only started spending time together because they wanted to know the person they were going to marry and hoped to develop a real relationship. It was never an unpleasant obligation, but it was still an obligation. And the feel of their scenes together never changed - it was always sort of "hey, we are hanging out together and this is kinda fun" but never "I'm in love with you and you being with you makes my life better." That was a sudden declaration, which came from Shallan with little build up in terms of her actual expressed emotions on the page. Adolin never expressed any romantic emotions toward Shallan on screen. I personally believe this was due to Sanderson's poor romance writing ability and it was his intent to show a gradually building love between them. In terms of Kaladin/Shallan - I agree that Shallan never had feelings for Kaladin beyond a slight crush. That's why I felt the way she started acting toward him/thinking about him was really jarring, but I can accept that at least some of it was due to her split personality issues. I disagree that Kaladin didn't have feelings for her. His feelings for Shallan are probably the most convincing romantic writing that Sanderson has ever done. The whole point is that Kaladin is too stubborn and duty bound to admit it to himself. He doesn't think he is allowed to have feelings for 1) another man's fiance, 2) someone he views as too far above his station for it to ever work, and 3) later on a good friend's fiance in particular. But he eventually realizes with help from Syl that he does have feelings for her, makes the attempt despite the fact that he feels it's wrong to do so (an even stronger sign that he has deep feelings for her), and fails. He shouldn't just blow this off. He needs to let himself be sad about it for a while. The difference between being sad and being angsty is not too hard. Sad = thinks about her longingly or commiserates his general failures in romance a few more times on screen and then some event makes him realize he needs to move on. Angsty = thinks about how life is just sooo unfair that he couldn't get the girl, pouts for the rest of the series. That's not how it was written though - he just magically cut off all feelings and has either gone into complete denial or is just being written in Deus ex Machina to firmly close off the triangle plot from future books. You are right that there are several Syl/Kaladin scenes about romance, but I don't agree with your interpretation on 3&4. You are saying 3) is "Bossy Syl forces Kaladin to say he likes Shallan when he really doesn't" but I definitely read it is "Wise Syl forces Kaladin to confront his true feelings and stop denying himself". You are saying 4) is "Syl tells Kaladin to use Shallan as his therapist" but I read it as "Syl points out that Kaladin feels happier when he is around Shallan to provide proof to Kaladin that he has feelings for her." In the end, your interpretation might be right, but if it is I'll be disappointed. There is definitely a quote in one of those scenes directly talking about his brothers in arms, I'll see if I can find it later on. What it seems to come down to is this - I believe the best romance is shown, not told. To make a convincing romance, you have to show it in the little things. How the two characters interact with each other, what they do and think about their love interest when they are not around, what they clearly feel but don't say or even directly think about each other, etc. That is what makes it interesting and fun to read. It's what makes the character's emotions feel real and draws you in to where you feel those emotions yourself. The style you seem to like is if the exact feelings each person is having are directly written on the page. "Person A loved Person B." If that's what you like, then that's what you like. That's Dalinar and Navani's romance - it was written that they love each other and so they did. If you like that style, then that's fine. I just don't.

The Starsight romance was a sort of read between the lines thing. You can tell that Spensa and Jerkface are interested in each other, but she isn't willing to admit it to herself yet. There's kind of a tsundere type thing going on there. It's being set up well for the eventual Book 2 or 3 romance, imo. I was pretty happy with what was there. It's interesting, that you like the Dalinar/Navani romance. I'm not opposed to the pairing, but I felt it was terribly written as a romance. We basically see them walk on screen and she's like "I clearly love you a lot Dalinar, but I have no reasons or emotional exposition showing you that I do, I just do." And Dalinar responds, "I love you too Navani, but I have no emotions or reasoning to back it up either. I've just said that I feel that way about you and therefore I do." Navani responds, "We are a perfect match!" Later in the Dalinar flashbacks you get a tiny bit more substance to the relationship and context to why they are the way they are with each other, but it's just not enough. Like I said in my last post, Sanderson went for the middle ground of romance that made it terrible. If he had just kept it minimal and that they had loved each other but couldn't be together and kept it almost all off screen, we could have just accepted it as that and it could have worked. Like if we saw them get together and got Adolin's feelings about it. That would have worked. Instead, we got extremely awkward dialogue that was totally unearned between them. In the S/A/K triangle I think Adolin is written the best in terms of being consistent and making decisions that line up with his character. The issue with Shallan is that early in OB she suddenly just starts saying she has these passions for Kaladin in an awkwardly written way that doesn't line up with her character or personality up to that point. She never has any romantic thoughts toward Kaladin in WoR, but suddenly she has these passions? Everything she does romantically from that point is totally erratic, though to be fair that is probably an intentional choice given Shallan's other issues at the time. Her choice later on to "choose" Adolin also feels wrong. It makes sense - she's betrothed to him and wants to be married to him for political reasons and also believes he genuinely cares for her and understands her, but it still feels wrong because there's no real build up to it. One minute it's her being all messed up with the multiple personalities, the next she decides she needs to be with Adolin. For it to feel right, we needed it to go one way or the other. Accepting a friendly but non-romantic political marriage that might later become a more full romance would have been totally fine. The other option was for her to actually think about Adolin in a romantic way at any time prior to the "decision" scene. She seems to think of spending time with him as something more like a pleasant obligation than anything else up until that point. It was presented as a romantic decision - she had finally found the man she truly loved - but the scenes of her feeling any kind of romantic love other than just physical attraction didn't exist. The issue with Kaladin is that the resolution of the triangle is way too abrupt and unnatural and inconsistent with how a normal person would react and how Kaladin himself has been shown to act. It's a Deus ex Machina from Sanderson because he wants to firmly close out the triangle to have Kaladin suddenly think that he has absolutely no feelings toward Shallan and never did. It would be one thing if he said that to someone else, then it could be putting a brave face on while still being sad about it. He internally thinks to himself that what he thought were romantic feelings were something else all along. That just feels wrong. A better written and still firmly closed arc would have shown Kaladin accepting that Shallan and Adolin should be together but still being a little sad about it in a non-angsty way. Writing it the way he did makes it feel like all Kaladin's earlier romantic feelings, imo the best romantic arc Sanderson has ever written, were a lie or misunderstanding. I can't remember chapter and page, but there is a scene in OB where Kaladin and Syl talk about his romantic prospects and she forces him to admit that he likes Shallan and that he can't just sit idly by and do nothing about it. He tries to say it's better for him to dedicate himself to his fellow soldiers. She makes him admit that he needs more than his brothers in arms. That is when he decides he will actively pursue a relationship with Shallan.

He's hit or miss on romance, mostly miss. Though as I write this out, I'm thinking maybe he's just been spectacularly bad a few times which has made it seem worse. In my view: Good Romance: Wax/Steris, Kaladin/Shallan WoR Arc (Only referencing in terms of quality, not shipping interest) In these two romantic plots he got the feelings across of both parties very well, made it feel natural, and it felt natural for the characters to interact the way they did. The Wax/Steris relationship was good because you could really see the two characters come to understand each other and love each other. OK Romance: Vin/Elend, Starsight, Reckoners: I remember Vin/Elend one as seeming OK but not heavily developed which seemed appropriate for the story. Starsight's romance seems like it could be another good one, but in Book One it wasn't developed much so I'll leave it at just OK. Reckoners was ok trending toward bad. Bad Romance: Dalinar/Navani, All OB Romance Arcs except Kaladin's early feelings. Dalinar/Navani feels just overly forced and like there are no real feelings there. Every Dalinar/Navani romance scene has felt totally wooden, especially the ones in WoK. In OB, there was some context added which took it from absolute garbage to just pretty bad. The other OB romance arcs also felt forced, especially on the part of Kaladin and Shallan. Adolin was pretty consistent throughout, but Kaladin and Shallan both came to huge decisions that were not really supported by anything. Don't Remember Well Enough to Comment: Elantris, Warbreaker, Rithmatist. Never read: Alcatraz. Overall I think Sanderson's biggest issue with romance is that he sometimes tries to go into a middle ground that just can't exist in romance. He is an author who really wants to push plot along and we all love him for that in the non-romance aspects. That approach can work with romance and be acceptable, like just keep it to a bare minimum "A likes B, B likes A, we don't get much detail and then they get together." There are plenty of books that get along fine like that. The other option is that you have to really develop it. The character's romantic feelings have to significantly impact their decisions and they have to build up over time. They have to make attempts and sometimes succeed and sometimes fail. This has to happen on screen. The problem is that sometimes he tries to go for a middle ground where you see some of it but not all of it. When that happens, either one of two things happens: 1) The romance feels fake and it seems like people are getting together just because of the plot (Dalinar/Navani) or 2) The characters jump to conclusions or are written to explicitly have feelings that don't make sense to us based on what we've seen on screen (K/A/S love triangle resolution). That said, if Kaladin does get together with someone in the front 5, I'd like to see it be Laral or Tarrah. Both of them are people he's had a hint of romance with, but screwed it up due to his youth and immaturity/romantic inexperience. I'd like to see him get a second chance now that he's grown up a bit and admitted to Syl that he can't just be happy with only his brothers in arms for companionship. To me, Laral seems the most interesting because she's become a strong woman in her own right in a way that Kaladin can't comprehend. I predict Roshone will die and Kaladin and Laral will end up working together professionally at first to evacuate the people to Urithiru and then develop a renewed bond.

To be fair, you don't don't know that the Windrunners agreed with the "lobotomy" plan and you also don't know that they actively participated or that they knew what its results would be if they did participate. I think there are hints in the text that the opposite is true - the Windrunners and some Stonewards were the first to renounce their oaths in protest of what the other Radiants did. I agree that fighting wars of "preprotection" is bad. And the point of the Windrunners is not that they sit in a room thinking about all the people who might possibly need protected now or in the future. The point I was trying to make is that the WIndrunners aren't assigned specific objectives of who they need to protect and for some specific limited time or place. They simply protect people who they see are in danger, or they try to save people they hear about being in danger that they think they have the ability to save. It's not organized or centrally planned, it happens organically. The comment of "not want to protect everybody" doesn't mean that the 4th Ideal literally says that Windrunners should not want to protect everybody. That's just the words of one frustrated Windrunner. I think the most likely 4th Ideal is something about prioritizing who you protect or accepting that you can't protect everybody even if you want to. In my view, that is significantly different from a cold decision to protect military allies only. It's a fair point that the Windrunners we have seen except Lopen (imo) are all fighting soldiers. Lopen is not a fighter or at least wasn't until he became a Radiant, though I think it's right to call him a soldier. That said, I don't think it is exclusive to soldiers. It's just that the most likely place to find someone who fits their description of a Windrunner is as a soldier. The values of a Windrunner candidate seem to be a person who is willing to fight to protect someone regardless of the cost to themselves. I agree that Windrunners don't care about crimes. When I used the word crime I was not describing a literal criminal act. The point I was making is that Kaladin realized that he didn't want to fight the parsh because they were just average people who had no desire to fight but were being pushed into it by Odium and the Fused. He had been taught to believe that the parsh were evil monsters who wanted nothing more than to kill humans. He thought that fighting them was different than a war with other humans and therefore always morally right. When he learned that he was wrong about that, he had to re-evaluate his moral views. What the Windrunners feel is justified is going to come down to their own personal knowledge at the time. During active combat against any foe, a Windrunner is likely going to feel justified in protecting his or her allies and killing the enemy in most circumstances. For example, they come across a friend or ally who is fighting someone. They will feel justified in protecting that friend or ally first and asking questions later. On the other hand, if they see their friend intentionally provoke a fight with no good reason, they will probably not feel justified in protecting that friend. If they are just a soldier in a battle and told to go to war without any other knowledge or options beforehand, they will go and fight. If they are told to go on a mission knowing that its only purpose is to kill as many of the enemy as possible, which is a valid though distasteful military strategy, they would likely refuse. I think the 4th and 5th ideal of the Windrunners are about knowing when it is OK to kill those average soldiers on the other side and when it is not. In some cases, they will be able to justify killing those average soldiers who are just doing their job because they believe it would minimize overall suffering. The impression I'm getting from you is that you believe it's almost always right to kill the soldiers on the other side, while I believe the Windrunners will feel it's almost never right. Another point is that I think you are viewing this through the lens of military values of the last few hundred years on Earth - the officers should do the thinking and the soldiers should leave it to them to decide if it's right to spend the lives on both sides that it will take to engage in a given battle. That's not necessarily wrong, but the Knights Radiant in general and especially the Windrunners in particular don't seem to prescribe to that theory. They are more like Knights Errant who each decide for themselves if it's right or wrong to engage in a battle rather than listening to the decisions of some officer. Again, I think that what you're saying makes sense if these are just average people with no magical powers fighting a normal war. I would even agree with your positions for the most part if that was the case. In the world of Roshar I don't think a lot of your assumptions hold up. There is a true evil here and you can draw a clear line between those who are truly evil and those who are just caught up in following orders under duress, unlike real life wars. The Windrunners are a magical order of knights who are required by magic to uphold a certain set of moral values which are not based on promoting the greatest military success. You have to think of this totally differently.

I do agree with you that the reason we don't feel as horrified by Dalinar's actions is because we don't get a perspective from someone with ties to Rathalas. However, I am also arguing that this reaction is (right or wrong) normal and common throughout history. Unless the crime is extremely reprehensible (i.e. concentration camps, torture, etc), people forgive or just simply don't process and mentally engage with war crimes unless they are personally impacted. I think, as others have pointed out, most people do know the extent of Dalinar's crimes. The only thing they don't know is that Evi was caught up in Dalinar's fires rather than being killed by the people of Rathalas beforehand. There was a polite veneer put over what he did for the official records, but anyone who knew anything understood that he really just burned down the city in a fury. That's why people react to him the way they do, especially the foreigners. In terms of the last point, what I'm trying to say is in your previous post you seemed to be implying that Dalinar should not be able to summon Honor's perpendicularity because he is too dishonorable and/or his moral character is not in alignment with Honor or the morals of the Bondsmith order. I disagree. It sounds like I may have misunderstood and you are now saying he shouldn't be able to summon the perpendicularity because he hasn't satisfactorily completed a redemption arc? I don't think that follows - whether or not he's completed redemption is unrelated to his ability to summon the perpendicularity. That is only related to whether or not he has said the correct number of ideals and aligned himself with the Bondsmith order and the Honor shard. I would also say that maybe rather than a redemption arc, I would call it a reformation arc. He has reformed himself to be a better person who would not burn down a city again. His redemption will start only now - now that he has become a better person he will seek to right the wrongs of the past, etc.

Willingness to kill your enemy as an objective is again, the kind of thing soldiers are taught in military training but is not aligned with the goals of the Windrunner order. You could argue that protecting people is a military objective, and it can be. But not in the way the Windrunner's have shown to value it. A military objective is something like "Escort the VIP from point A to point B." Or, "Protect civilians in the area of operation." That is not the type of objective that Windrunners have. Their objective is to protect anyone who needs to be protected (i.e. anyone who cannot protect themself is a person who needs to be protected), regardless of their faction as the 3rd Ideal showed. In terms of protecting vs. not protecting, you again seem to be missing the point that Kaladin learned. Yes, you are absolutely correct that in many or even most cases both sides wish to protect their own people. However, that is not always the case. For example, a war of aggression or conquest cannot be considered protection. The war being prosecuted by the Fused and Odium can't be considered a war of protection today, though it could have been when it first began thousands of years ago. The individual soldiers may be caught up in things they have no belief in (such as the parsh/singers in the Battle of Kholinar), but the war aims are not about protection. Again, on the "us" vs. "them" topic it feels like you are missing the point. You are correct that Kaladin learned that to protect people he sometimes has to harm others. However, his position has changed over time. Initially he interpreted that as "protect your allies and brothers in arms and kill everyone else" during his days in Amaram's army. Then, in Bridge 4 he learned that he needed to protect people who couldn't protect themselves, not just his own brothers in arms. Then, he learned at the Elhokar assassination attempt that he needs to protect even those he hates. During his time with the parsh/singers early in OB, he realized that most of the parsh/singers are not his enemies and that his best goal is to avoid battle with them. At the Battle of Kholinar, he realized that he can't protect everybody and sometimes people who normally wouldn't be fighting are forced to fight each other. He hasn't figured out what to do about that yet. I don't think it's going to be "well, there are people who you have spent a lot of time learning are not really your enemies. but, it's more convenient for your side if you just kill them, so go ahead and do it." In terms of the Skybreakers, yes they are good soldiers. They followed orders, they followed the rules, and they followed their leader. That's a good rank and file soldier - as long as it's not illegal then you need to do what your leadership tells you. That's what their entire order is set up to be. It wasn't the rank and file Skybreakers who failed, it was Nale. They are terrible leaders, but good soldiers. Or, maybe if it feels better for you to say it this way they make good Privates rather than good soldiers. As best I understand it, your point is that Kaladin and the Windrunners need to learn that they should compromise or change their moral values and simply fight and kill people because it's going to lead to them being successful in war. For a normal person, I would agree with your advice. I would tell them the military life is not for them if they can't come to terms with the fact that they are going to have to kill good people whose only crime is that they are from another country. But that's not the world of Stormlight Archive and it's not consistent with the Knights Radiant. The entire point of the Knights Radiant is that each order has to maintain certain oaths and moral codes or they lose their power. These moral codes are often not practical and conflict with each other between orders, which is also kind of the point. The Windrunners' moral values do not seem to be compatible with the idea of killing people just because they are the enemy. In the heat of battle when it's kill or be killed, yes within limits. When they have any other option, no.

The entire lens you are looking at this through seems to be wrong though. You are looking at it from the perspective of a military commander, even quoting Clausewitz the famous military historian and Prussian general. From your perspective "acceptable losses" seems to mean what can you give up while still achieving your military objective. That's not the Windrunner perspective, which Kaladin has shown many times. To a Windrunner, the death of an "enemy" is not desirable. It would be most desirable if the "enemy" chose to no longer be an enemy. The Windrunner perspective does not look at their battles in terms of achieving military objectives, they look at it in terms of protecting people in some way. They seem to define enemies based on who wants to harm someone and allies based on who wants to protect people. I just don't think it makes any sense for their next ideal to be something saying it's ok to kill "enemy combatants" because their 3rd ideal is that they must protect even those they hate. We've seen the progress of the Windrunner ideals from protecting people who can't protect themselves, to the understanding that you have to protect people even if you don't like them. The whole point Kaladin makes about "us vs. them" is that he is realizing now that he's understood the third ideal that he disagrees with his prior reasoning. He now understand that protecting "us" and hurting "them" doesn't align with a Windrunner's values. The next ideal should be a further refinement of who to protect, not a "repeal" of one of the previous ideals. To protect does not always mean to kill, though it does sometimes. We all agree that it has to be something about choosing who to protect when you are conflicted. It's got to be something like "I will force myself to choose who to protect, even if it means hurting my friends." The Windrunners are fighters, but not rank and file soldiers or police. They have to feel they have a personal moral justification for why they fight. Skybreakers make good soldiers because they delegate that authority to others by following laws and military orders given to them by others.

The outlining bar always makes me a little nervous. He said before he started writing that he needed to finish the outline for books 4 and 5 prior to writing 4 so that he would know what events go in each book and preventing plots from changing and moving around similar to pulling Dalinar's book up from 5th to 3rd. That made a huge amount of sense to me especially in context of some of the things in the middle and later parts of OB that felt a little less cohesive than WoK, WoR, and the first part of OB. I don't know how to put this into words, but it's just a feeling I got when reading OB. I think a lot of people have taken notice of this based on discussions on this board, including Sanderson himself based on his outlining plan. The fact that he didn't finish the outline before writing SA4 has always made me wonder why he changed his mind. If he doesn't feel he's completed the outline does that mean there's a chance he'll decide he painted himself into a corner for SA4 or SA5 and need to make a late change? In reality, it's probably that there are just a few of the smaller plot points that he hasn't fully fleshed out or something like that. Obviously, he knows what he's doing and he's a better author than I will ever be, but it still makes me wonder.

You could also argue that it may have been an intentional act from the humans at some point. They may have felt that it was wrong to desecrate the bodies of sentient beings and so they took the opportunity after the last previous desolation when there would be few parsh bodies to try to make people forget and change their behavior. That would make sense in context of them doing things like intentionally trying to end the Knights Radiant, etc.

It was a good post, made people think. 1) I do agree that if there was a POV character from Rathalas it would make the crimes feel more real. Rathalas only exists in the books as a place for Dalinar to burn down. 2) I don't necessarily feel different about his overall character arc if Dalinar knowingly and intentionally kills Evi, but I do feel differently about how the in world characters should feel about him. I think if he had actually done that, his arc would have to be different though. The point of his arc was that his lust for battle had gotten out of control and that Rathalas was the point where the negative consequences got so extreme that he realized he had to radically change his life. Killing his wife isn't really related to that. 3) You don't exactly "have" to root for historical figures in the same way that you don't "have" to root for Dalinar. It's just that people hold up certain historical figures as great people - Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, many leaders on the side of the Allies in WW2, the list goes on. But, you could argue that all of these people have committed crimes equal to or even greater than Dalinar's. The point I'm making is (right or wrong) people are generally willing to forgive some types war crimes if there were extreme circumstances and they don't have a close relationship to the victims of those war crimes. In terms of Honor's perpendicularity I think we should also remember that Honor does not really represent "Honor" in the way we think of Honor. It actually represents the concept of following orders, following the law and other rules, doing what you think is right, meeting societal expectations and things like that. You can commit atrocities while still doing all of those things. The Skybreakers show us that directly in world. So in terms of Dalinar's actions aligning with the Honor shard's intent, they were probably not as far off from that as you might think.