agrabes

I don't know the best way to put this and I've tried to think about it for a while, so rather than waste more time turning it over in my mind, I'll just say a few words and let it be done. I think of it this way: In a relationship headed toward marriage, the couple gradually learns about each other and gradually increases their level of commitment toward each other. During the relationship, it's understood that the type of reason that they could split up becomes gradually more and more restrictive. If the first date goes bad, there's a good chance the relationship is ended right then and there. Eventually, the couple enters a time when they are seriously considering getting married. They start talking about their life plans and goals, they start making sure they are compatible for the long haul. At this point, it's only a major disagreement that would cause them to split up. Then, they make plans to be together for the rest of their lives and choose to get engaged. It's still explicitly part of the deal that they can break it off, but there are even fewer reasons. Then, they get married. They've launched themselves into the next phase of their life. Sure, they were preparing things for this moment ever since they started seriously thinking about it. So there's not a moment when it all radically changes. But the day of the marriage is when they lock it in, they can't back out anymore. They're committed. It's not just an outward sign, it's a final seal and promise that they will fulfill and carry out all their plans and dreams together. From one day to the next, very little changes, but at a certain point you've crossed a line and you can't go back. In a relationship not headed toward marriage, the couple also gradually learns about each other and gradually increases their level of commitment toward each other. They may or may not make plans about their lives together. They may or may not make commitments to each other of different types. And eventually, their commitment to each other is very strong. But there is never a day when they say to each other "This is final. We can't come back from this." And so at any time, however hard it may be, you can back out. You can end the relationship. You've never promised otherwise. This difference is what defines marriage to me. It's the point of no return. It's the point that you and your partner agree that you're not going to turn back. In my own marriage, this steadfast commitment has seen us through the tough times. We've had bad months, months where the love and faithfulness and support were not there. Months where we weren't sure we wanted to be married anymore. Months where we thought there might not be a path back to the kind of relationship we wanted to have. Months where if those same things had happened before the marriage, we would have called it off. But we stuck it out because we made vows, we made commitments that we would be stand by each other even in the worst times. And we've come through those rough times and made it to the other side. In my opinion, a relationship that is not built on the idea that marital vows are deeply meaningful cannot last through truly tough times. And many people would argue that might be for the better, that marriages should end more easily and spare people the pain of a struggling marriage. I think that's a totally valid argument and may even be right, but it's not how I choose to live my life.

Yeah definitely fair points about Adolin's perception. I think it's just something we'll have to see in the next book. And I'm maybe not putting things the best way about what I want to see between Shallan and Adolin. What I want is to see this be a point of serious conflict in their relationship, but not the end of it. I want to see them almost break it off, but then choose to stay together. This gives Sanderson a chance to dive into what makes their relationship really work and its strengths. I honestly feel like with the exceptions of one or two short scenes in OB, most of Shallan and Adolin's interactions have been very shallow and surface level. To me, that has made their relationship and theoretical happiness together feel a bit unearned. If he combines the plot of marital strife (and its eventual resolution) with Shallan making progress on her identity issues, it's killing two birds with one stone. In terms of marriage, I agree with what you're saying. I didn't get that from Animar's post, but if that was the intent then I agree. Marriage isn't the end and you can't rest on your laurels at that point. Like you said, after you get married you have to keep working on your relationship or it will fall apart. It's totally valid for people to choose not to marry, that is a personal choice with a lot of cultural influence like you said. I just think that if you do choose to marry, you need to treat it much differently than the relationship that came before. A marriage is not just a single day where you celebrate prior commitment. It's a day when the type of commitment you've made changes. And you have to make certain plans and agreements with your partner prior to getting married if you want it to work. You have to agree on certain major questions like "Will we have kids?" These kinds of shared plans and goals are fundamental building blocks to a marriage. It doesn't mean that you can't later change your mind about them, but changing the foundation of your marriage by nature must seriously threaten its existence. To me, by contrast if you are in a long term non-marriage relationship instead, there is never a defined time when you have to sit down and make plans and decisions like this about your future together. You decide things over time gradually and if you ever drift too far apart, then you can walk away from the relationship. And that kind of relationship works for some people and that's totally cool. But it's not the same thing as a marriage.

Yeah, appreciate the response. I think we're on the same page mostly about Shallan and Adolin. Sure, I agree there are tons of other pressures on their relationship. Even though those other issues are real and serious, I think it's reasonable that the pressure could boil over into just one thing which I think could reasonably be Shallan's identity issues. Plot efficiency - we know that Shallan will have to work through those issues at some point, so why not also combine it as a way to flesh out her marriage to Adolin? Can't say I agree with your take on marriage, though. Religious and philosophical views aside, there is a legal difference between being married and not. Once you sign that paper, your spouse owns half your stuff. You can't just walk away from each other anymore. The idea that marriage shouldn't be different from any other part of a relationship just logically doesn't make sense. If it wasn't different, why would people get married? There would be no need. Or, why wouldn't they get married after their first date? Marriage is different from other relationships. If you want to put a marriage in terms of the Stormlight Archive - a relationship is like being a squire and a marriage is like being a Knight Radiant. As a squire, you can leave and change completely at any point with no consequences. Once you make that commitment to become a Radiant, you've made a solemn vow to behave in a certain way for the rest of your life. You can and should still grow and change, but you've agreed to have certain limitations placed on you now. There are very serious consequences now if you go back on your word. You wouldn't say no one should become a Radiant because that is putting destination ahead of journey. But for some people, maybe being a Radiant is not for them. And that's OK.

Yeah - very true, there wasn't much time to show anything more about her in OB. I personally feel that there were hints being dropped in those last chapters that she's not going to make much progress without another major event. Things like her saying she could be three women, and Adolin could have three wives, with his negative reaction to that. The sections where Radiant and Veil appear on their own and talk to Shallan as if they are real, independent people. The line about how Adolin views Veil as a separate woman who is not his wife. In that same line, Shallan points out she doesn't think she can tell Adolin about the Ghostbloods as herself and she needs to have Veil do it. I think these are all indications there are still issues there and some tension should result. But, I can also definitely see how someone else could interpret that differently. The one thing I will say is that Adolin is definitely perceptive and he's picked up on this better than anyone else, but he gets help. I don't think you're remembering the scene correctly, or maybe I'm forgetting about another scene - but there is not a moment when he looks into her eyes and realizes on his own that there is more than one person in there. He has a lot more clues than anyone else. He sees her sitting on the ship in Shadesmar drawing dozens of pictures of variants of herself and she directly tells him she is creating these personalities and she is losing control of them. (Ch. 108 of OB, p 1012 in my hardcover version) He doesn't figure this out on his own and no one else gets these clues. So we shouldn't give him more credit than he's due - where he should get credit is recognizing when she is using the personality he knows and sticking to his convictions that he doesn't want other, fake versions of her. That's why I say - he's picked up on some things and he's been told some things by Shallan which have skewed his perception. I don't think Adolin is wrong to see Radiant and Veil's fakeness. I don't think he's wrong at all - he's been misled. If I were in those shoes it feels worse that someone tells you 80% of what's going on, while hiding 20% than just telling you nothing. If they tell you nothing, it feels like they are just insecure and hiding things from everyone. If they tell you part of it but hold back on key information, it feels like they are intentionally trying to deceive you. He thinks it's Shallan: 100% Shallan, Veil: 100% Veil, Radiant, 100% Radiant when in reality is Shallan: 70% Shallan, Veil: 85% Veil, 15% Shallan, Radiant: 85% Radiant, 15% Shallan. He's never known a complete, 100% fully integrated Shallan. She'd already started creating Veil by the time they met. That's not his fault and he shouldn't be blamed for it. But, when he does get to meet that full, true, Shallan and realize that she has some of the character traits he didn't like in Veil, then it's logically going to cause some marital strife. Doesn't mean it will cause a divorce, or long term problems. But it will be a difficult issue to work through. Respectfully, I think what you've posted is half true and half bogus. Of course relationships are based on people growing and changing and anyone who can't accept that is going to have problems in life. A married couple should support each other, even when they face tough problems that are painful for one or the other of them. People do hide things from others and have things they have a hard time articulating. But, I think that there's a difference between a relationship and a marriage. A marriage is a lifelong commitment between two people who have agreed to share everything. If you want to get married, you enter into a relationship first to work through these kinds of issues. If you don't feel that you can trust someone with your deepest darkest secrets that fundamentally make up who you are, you are not ready to marry that person. If you keep those secrets from your partner, only to reveal them after marriage and demand that your partner makes major life changes to accommodate you, then you are in the wrong. I'm not talking about things like "Hey, you know I'd like to start a new career" or "Look, I've been flattering you while we were dating but you are a terrible cook, so I'll handle the cooking from now on." I'm talking about things like "Actually, I have a second life I've kept secret from you all this time" or "I don't think I can live a monogamous life". It's not healthy to just roll over and say "Sure honey, it's fine" in those situations. You have to have a line and you have to stand up for yourself. You can't just erase yourself to support your partner. People who love each other can work out a lot of problems, even ones that cause a lot of pain. In terms of Adolin and Shallan's marriage, the things she has hidden from Adolin are the kinds of things that can cause pain for him. And he would be right to protect himself and make an issue of them with her. I don't think it would lead to divorce, but it will lead to serious challenge to their marriage.

Yeah, just can't say I'm on board with that one. I don't think that's a good way to go for Kaladin - he's already tough on himself. Having someone else beating up on him for his mistakes isn't going to lead him to growth, imo. I could see that kind of relationship possibly being good for Jasnah though. I think it could be written in a good way if that's the way Sanderson decides to go. Wouldn't be my choice, but that doesn't mean a lot :). I think the more interesting plot is a moderately serious disagreement between Shallan and Adolin. Not super melodramatic, but serious enough that they question if they really want the same things out of life and if a marriage really makes sense for them. Something serious enough that they aren't just sitting down thinking they're still on the same page and can just work through it together. They're having conversations about what each of them really, truly wants and what is the best path forward and whether or not that is together.

I think it really depends on the issue. If it turns out she had been hiding significant portions of who she was, intentionally or unintentionally, then that is a fundamental change in the nature of the relationship. I would want her to be true to herself, of course. But if her true self is different than the self I thought she was and that we planned our future together based on, that requires serious discussion and could change the nature of our marriage forever. I'm not saying Adolin and Shallan can't work through their issues (or that I couldn't in my own life), but what I'm saying is these will be serious issues that will cause tempers to flare, feelings to be seriously hurt, and will take serious time to heal and recover from. I don't think it's a "Hey, thank you for telling me, I totally understand!" kind of conversation. Yeah, I think that's a fair interpretation of the WoB. I don't think you could call Kaladin's feelings for Shallan "true love" or something like that - after all they really spent very little time getting to know each other. I don't believe there was a chance for real love to develop. But the way I read the WoB is that it's saying Kaladin had real romantic feelings for Shallan that could have developed into a true love if they had been given the chance, that it wasn't true that this was all just some illusion from Lightweaver magic and he never had any feelings for her. To me, this is Brandon Sanderson saying that his intent in that section at the end of OB was to show that Kaladin is in denial about what his true feelings were, now that he knows he has to cut them off. It's Sanderson saying we shouldn't read that sentence as literally true. Which to me, is a much better and more logical ending for the triangle plot than the alternative. For me personally, I don't think that Kaladin will become close with Jasnah. She's a complete afterthought to him so far in the story - I'm not sure if he's ever even thought about her in scenes where she doesn't appear with him. I think their personalities just don't serve to be supportive to each other. Jasnah is cold, logical, and pragmatic with a relatively low emotional intelligence while Kaladin is very emotional and unwilling to compromise his principles just to get a better deal in politics. I feel like they are people who will work together well as colleagues with constructive conflict but are too different to be friends. I just can't imagine Jasnah being supportive of Kaladin when he's in a depressive mood, or Kaladin being able to help Jasnah with her own personal struggles which seem to be about prioritizing what she thinks is the best outcome based on logic vs. managing her personal relationships with others. I think if Kaladin does find a friend that will help him grow as a person, it will be a Lightweaver. The people who've helped him the most are lightweavers (Tien and Shallan). I think the personality traits normally tied to that order and their magical abilities are suited to helping him work through his issues - helping him to recognize he doesn't need to beat himself up so badly and that he's actually done a very good job most of the time. It doesn't have to be Shallan, but makes sense if it would be since they have an interesting existing friendship. Also, Adolin is Kaladin's closest thing to a real friend, so I can't imagine he won't be in contact with Shallan. What makes Shallan a mess for Kaladin right now is that he is totally in the dark about her mental state. If he were to learn that, I think the messiness is gone. And I think in learning that, it presents another opportunity for them to help each other grow. Kaladin's problem is that he takes on all responsibility and crushes himself under the duty, thrusting the weakest parts of himself in the open to be destroyed. Shallan's problem is she hides from responsibility and runs from challenges, hiding her weaknesses and never growing past them. Seems like a great opportunity for them to have a conversation and help each other get a little of the other's coping mechanisms to help themselves deal better with their hardships.

I think you are underestimating how emotional people can be regarding their personal relationships and marriages. If I were to find out that my wife had spent our entire relationship up until our marriage intentionally hiding major aspects of her personality from me, I would be very upset. I committed my life to the person I knew at the time, and if she were to become a different person, that is a fundamental change in the foundation the marriage was built on. I really do think this will be a source of conflict for Adolin and Shallan in RoW. I admit, my possible plot scenario may have been a bit more "dramatic" than what Sanderson would normally and is probably not realistic. But, I do think the evidence is there that Shallan hasn't shown her whole self to Adolin yet. It's in her nature to hide things and show people what she thinks they want to see. She opened up to Adolin at the end of OB, but they never fully discussed everything, which I think led to a partial misunderstanding. In terms of feelings between Shallan and Kaladin, I think it's written in the books that they do have feelings for each other at different times. The degree and depth of the feelings are different, and they both suppress them to one degree or another. Look at the end of WoR - Kaladin hopes Shallan will look for him as she rides off after they return from the Chasms, implying that he hopes maybe a relationship could blossom between them, but when she doesn't he quickly gets demoralized and starts to suppress his feelings (WoR Ch.76). Shallan, thinking about how Adolin just doesn't make her feel the same way Kaladin did when they were together, but quickly tells herself it's wrong to think that way about a man other than her fiance and that it's OK if Adolin's personality is less compatible with her than Kaladin (WoR Ch. 77). As to the nature of Kaladin's feelings there has been a recentish WoB about this topic which supports my opinion and finally clarifies what Sanderson intended with that scene at the end of OB. Essentially - Sanderson says that Kaladin is telling himself that his feelings couldn't have become love and/or were never love, but that Kaladin is not right about that. He explicitly says that the Lightweaver effect was a component of Kaladin's feelings, but it was not the entirety of them. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/387-fanx-spring-2019/#e12652 This is just Kaladin being Kaladin, like he was in WoR after the chasms. He is trying to let himself down easy and convince himself it never could have been and he never wanted it anyway. I think a conversation where Shallan sits down and tells Kaladin "Hey, ya know I had a little crush on you back then" would do wonders for Kaladin's self esteem not just in romance but his own sense of self value. He tells himself that no one really wants to be with him or be his friend just for him as a person, everyone wants to be with him because they serve with him, they want or need his help, etc. He tells himself that someone he admires as much as Shallan could never be interested in him as a man. That he's not good enough for someone like her and that he's a lesser person than both Shallan and Adolin. I think it would hugely valuable for him as a character to realize that people like him for him. He doesn't really have friends, only superiors and subordinates and mission objectives. I think the same could be true for Shallan, though to a lesser extent. I think it would be good for her to realize that there was a possible relationship there with Kaladin, but that it was healthy for her to cut it off out of loyalty to Adolin. I think it would be valuable if she recognized that she intentionally chose to do it fairly quickly after the Chasm scene, even before she pushed it off into Veil to hide the feelings. I think as far as sending Shallan and Adolin together - I think if my somewhat melodramatic plot idea happens, then it's not a situation of "Let's just send these two out somewhere to work on their relationship" but more like "Ok, we know Shallan needs to go on this mission and we could send any number of people with her. Let's make sure that second person is Adolin." I think it's fair to say we can't say for sure what exactly Shallan will do going forward either in the one year gap or in RoW. I was rereading some of those sections at the end of OB and you're right it's less clear than I was thinking. It's not clear whether or not (or how much) she's increased or decreased her control over Veil and Radiant. I do think it's shown that as of the end of OB she does not yet have full control - since they pop up on their own as she's getting dressed for the wedding. There's also the WoB already quoted in this thread that says Wit would consider as of the end of OB that she's taken a good step but that she's not there yet. She recognizes she's not ok and seems to have stopped things from getting worse, but I think scenes late in OB show that she's still not starting to get better as of the end of OB. I do think we can get a good idea of how Adolin views Shallan's current mental state, even if we don't see it directly from his POV. I think if we look at their conversation where Shallan reveals her identity problems to Adolin in Ch. 108 of OB, and combine it with the way we know he treats Veil as if she is a different person (Ch 122 OB) it seems pretty clear how Adolin perceives things. In Ch. 108, she talks about how she crafted Radiant to be more desirable for Adolin and he has a pretty negative reaction to that. In their conversations about the personas in Ch. 108, Shallan talks about creating fake personas to hide her flaws. She frames the conversation in a way that says she pretends to be Veil or Radiant in order to not be herself and who she really is. She never tells him that those personas contain parts of the real her and she never tells him that the her he thinks is the real her is missing those parts. So I think we have to assume that Adolin assumes that the "Shallan" he's known up until she really breaks down in late OB is the real and true her, while the Veil and Radiant personas are fake personalities she uses to hide her flaws. He kind of confirms this in Ch. 121, when he says it's worrisome that she becomes other people. He says he does not want to marry three different people, only what he considers the real her. We know this isn't really true, that she hides aspects of herself from him both intentionally and unintentionally. But he doesn't. I do agree that the personas are not 100% fake or real, both are built on a core of truth about Shallan, but then filled in with made up stories. But, like I said above, I think that's part of the problem because I don't believe that Adolin understands this.

I think the biggest danger sign in their relationship, as I see it, is that Shallan is still papering over things and has not really merged herself into one complete person yet. So, Adolin has chosen to marry the "Shallan" persona that he has known since they met in WoR, but what he doesn't realize is that the "Shallan" persona does not contain all of who Shallan is. She hasn't been completely honest with him - he currently thinks that "Shallan" is completely real, while Veil and Radiant are completely fake personalities that sometimes take over. We know this isn't true - we know that she uses the personas as a place to store unwanted feelings and character traits. The "Shallan" that Adolin knows is only about 70-80% of the real Shallan. For example - she's pushed her more aggressive and sneaky personality traits over to Veil along with her unwanted feelings for Kaladin and she's pushed the more formal and martial portions of her personality into Radiant. At some point, we have to expect that Shallan will re-integrate herself and will no longer spin out painful memories and "undesirable" aspects of herself into these separate personas. Her whole arc is about facing up to her own inner demons, so we have to expect she either challenges this stuff head on and fully resolves it or goes down a dark path (unlikely). Once Shallan re-integrates herself, she will have a different personality, containing the parts of her that she intentionally hid from Adolin because she felt he would not like them. That doesn't mean she was right to believe he wouldn't like them, but you have to imagine that will lead to at least some marital strife. I don't think it will lead to a divorce, but I think it will lead to serious consequences that will have plot relevance. I feel like Sanderson has been foreshadowing this for a while - Shallan and Adolin's conversations have always felt very surface level and superficial, aside from the one time at the end of OB. I believe that understanding her true mental state has been strongly foreshadowed as a key future plot element. The full truth of what Shallan is doing will come out at some point. It's a ticking time bomb and I think Sanderson's been clear in interviews/Q&A sessions that Shallan's issues are not close to resolved yet. She's only taken the first step in the right direction. More trouble will come. If Adolin feels she's been hiding her true self from him since day one all the way up until sometime after OB, I could see him losing a lot of trust in her. Adolin's generally been a good person and like you said he has generally tried to correct his mistakes and to work on his weaknesses. I think there's a good chance he would ultimately accept Shallan, warts and all, once he knows the whole truth. If the relationship breaks up, I think it will be from Shallan's Identity Crisis and her doing something bad to Adolin, rather than Adolin doing something bad to her. After thinking about it, here's the future plot I hope might happen: Shallan makes progress between OB and RoW in re-integrating some of her personality into her main self. Adolin is pretty perceptive and notices this, and finally puts all the pieces together of her true nature and the nature of her alternate personas. This leads to trust issues as I mentioned earlier - he thinks that she's deceived him every step of the way and their whole relationship is fake. She fires back with some mean comments about him and it escalates from there. By the time of RoW, they are spending most of their time apart while still keeping up appearances officially as newlyweds. Early in RoW while everyone is still together, each of them confide in friends like Jasnah, Kaladin, Dalinar, etc about what to do - should they keep their marriage even though it's based on lies? Kaladin finally pieces together the true nature of Shallan's mental state, has a chat with her about it and resolves their misunderstanding from OB. They're able to have a heart to heart conversation again similar to in WoR where they talk through his killing of Helaran, which helps her process her feelings about it in a healthier way. Kaladin and Shallan both realize that they've had feelings for each other at different times and to different degrees, helping their self esteem. It sets up this awesome dilemma for Kaladin as he is forced to choose between his own old feelings for her and his loyalty but he ultimately tries to give her advice to help the relationship with Adolin. All of "Team Radiant" conspires to force them together on a mission to make up, which leads to the RoW covers joint mission that ultimately leads to them reconciling.

Love this theory! Don't think it's true but still love it. I think a lot of people give Sadeas more hate than he deserves. Sure, he's scheming and conniving, but that's kind of the Alethi way. We just get to see through the eyes of the few good Alethi characters who've realized that's not right. Sadeas thinks he is doing what is right for the kingdom and he always was loyal. He just thinks Dalinar is taking things down the wrong path. Unfortunately, he was pretty clearly also being manipulated or influenced by Odium. It would be a cool plot if this were true, but like you said it just doesn't seem like Sanderson's style. Navani's broken oaths are probably from political machinations that she perpetrated over the years to help Gavilar gain power and/or to help her family and country.

I agree with both your first two statements to a certain extent. I agree that passionate love can be overrated and/or isn't required for everybody, but I guess my main point is that at least from my reading Adolin and Shallan never expressed a strong desire (passionate or otherwise) to stay together until the end of Oathbringer. Up until that point, it was just "hey we're together, it wasn't our choice but it's not bad either so let's make the best of it". In that moment at the end of OB, Adolin said that it didn't have to be like that if Shallan didn't want it to. And for the first time, they committed to each other that they wanted to be together by choice, not just by circumstance. I think that's when their relationship became real. I think Adolin's insecurities about his relationship are both a sign of emotional maturity and a sign of a weak relationship. He's mature enough to acknowledge the problem and try to address it rather than let it fester, but that necessarily means that it was a problem. The weakness of the relationship was they'd never had that "Define The Relationship" moment. Was it a political marriage, with the understanding that they were primarily business partners with a bit of sexual chemistry who could seek their personal/emotional needs from others? Did Shallan feel happy with Adolin as a person, or was she just happy with that status she would gain from marrying him? Those are legitimate and important questions they had not discussed up to that point. In terms of Adolin's struggle with his capabilities relative to Shallan, I called it a struggle because I think it's something he's working on. In WoR before he knows she is a Radiant, there are scenes that show that Adolin thinks Shallan is someone who needs to be protected and that she can't handle herself on her own, etc. Even prior to Shallan being a Radiant, Adolin was mostly wrong to think this and it's something that frustrates Shallan. Then, he learns she is as Radiant, has a shard blade, etc. And he tries to do the right thing, but it's hard for him. I think Shallan's huge increase in relative power and influence is a major factor in Adolin's general inadequacy. When they first meet, Adolin has all the power in their relationship. He's the one who is wealthy and from a powerful family, he is one of the strongest fighters in the world. Shallan has to rely on him for just about everything - if their relationship goes south she is penniless and far from home with no friends anywhere around. By the end of WoR, she has political power and wealth in her own right as a Radiant, she has combat capabilities nearly as strong as his if not stronger, and she doesn't have to rely on him for anything. If anything, he now has to rely on her. Adolin's not being a jerk about this, he's doing a pretty decent job of handling it all things considered. But it's still a serious stress point in their relationship - she grows more powerful and important as he becomes less powerful and less important. He doesn't always handle it perfectly and has caused Shallan frustration in the past over this issue. I think there's a reasonable chance it will be a sticking point for them again.

I don't know if it would go all the way to a divorce, but I do think that RoW will show us that the Honeymoon is over for Shallan and Adolin. I think your #2 scenario is the more likely one. Just based on Sanderson's writing style I don't see him writing a family crisis with extreme marital strife like your #1 scenario. It doesn't really fit with the tone he uses. I can definitely see him writing marital tension, but not a marriage where one or both parties completely get fed up with the other. Over the last 3 years a lot of good discussion has taken place in this thread. I've shared my own thoughts about whether or not Shallan and Adolin will actually spend a lot of RoW together in other threads, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume they do. If it does happen, I think it could be a good opportunity for Sanderson to finally dive into the Shallan/Adolin relationship in a more meaningful way. If you ask me, here's how it stands: Leading up to this the arranged marriage, Adolin and Shallan were both motivated to make it work for non-romantic reasons. Adolin had tried and failed multiple times at courting women and it was getting to the point that a lot of the eligible women of the Alethi court were not totally interested in getting with him. It seemed like he'd dated just about everybody and was more interested in dueling, fashion, etc than his relationship. He knew he needed to get married - it was a duty for him. Shallan needed to get financial security for her family. She knew she'd be placed in an arranged marriage for her family's political benefit from a young age. When the option of marrying Adolin came up, it was the best possible scenario for her. A marriage to one of the most powerful and wealthy families in Roshar. She has a vested interest in making it work. Once they finally meet, they realize they have a reasonable amount of compatibility with each other too, so they're happy that it will probably work out. Neither seems to be passionately in love with the other, but both are interested in making the relationship work. OB rolls around and Adolin recognizes that Shallan may be more interested in Kaladin. This leads to insecurity on his part. He's a nice guy and genuinely cares about her and is insecure about himself, his relationship with her, and his value as a non-radiant, so he offers to step aside. [Aside: Some people earlier in the thread felt this is unrealistic or a sign that he doesn't care, this is actually the part of Adolin's romance arc that feels the most sincere and relatable to me. In my younger days, I had a lot of insecurity about myself and my own desirability as a romantic partner so I can personally relate to this kind of feeling.] I think that Adolin even offers this is a sign that while he does care about Shallan, he views their relationship as mostly a political arrangement, not close or deep - he sincerely believes she does not want to be with him. It's a sign of a weak relationship - he simply isn't yet sure that Shallan is committed to him emotionally. This makes sense due to the unusual way their relationship starts - they're just told they will be together one day without the normal process of figuring out how they actually feel about each other. After the crisis moment at the end of OB is when their relationship begins to develop as a real, intentional relationship, rather than a political one that was thrust on them without their choice. They finally tell each other they want to be with each other. This is when they first confirm to each other they are changing course from "Let's make this political marriage work as best we can" to "Let's see if we can build a real romantic love and marriage between us." Now, post OB is when things develop as a real relationship. And I think there will be tension. Adolin has struggled with accepting that Shallan is better than him at many things. Shallan thinks Adolin is dumb. Adolin may or may not be partially enabling Shallan's multiple identities. Shallan is still struggling with the identities and this is even hinted as causing minor friction in late OB (Shallan's minor frustration that Adolin won't be intimate with the Veil persona). Adolin is unambitious, while Shallan is very ambitious. In RoW, I predict there will be tension shown on screen. I do think it will come from the identities thing. I think Adolin will basically try to keep handling things the same way as he does initially. I think this will lead to serious frustration on both ends. Adolin will be frustrated that Shallan isn't improving - she'll still spend time as Veil and Radiant, who Adolin doesn't want to be married to. Shallan will be frustrated either that Adolin won't accept those parts of her, or that he hasn't actively helped her improve and move on and has just accepted the status quo. Also - as long as the Veil persona exists, I think she is still going to remain attracted to Kaladin even though Kaladin himself has moved on. This might lead to some interesting confrontations. As of the end of OB, Kaladin still doesn't know about the split personality issue, so this could be very confusing for him. Shallan as Veil may come on to Kaladin at some point, leading to confusion from Kaladin and frustration/hurt from Adolin. Or, Adolin may develop a close enough friendship to Kaladin and feel secure enough in his relationship with Shallan that he confides in Kaladin about these issues. Wouldn't it be interesting if Kaladin (now moved on) confronts Shallan and tells her she needs to put those feelings to rest for Adolin's sake? I think ultimately, it will not lead to Shallan and Adolin splitting up. It might lead to them giving up on having a "romantic" relationship and going back toward a friendly political marriage. Most likely though, I think the trials will probably strengthen their relationship.

I agree with what you're saying, but I would add that it doesn't necessarily have to be someone with experience. Just someone with a strong natural aptitude for it. Dalinar is our only example right now, but he had a headstart. He said his first two oaths at the same time since he already had the experience and made the personal development before starting the path of becoming a Radiant. The next candidate might say their first oath as the first step on their path toward becoming a leader. I think the distinction between Bondsmiths and Windrunners in terms of leadership is that Bondsmiths decide what should be done and why while Windrunners lead others in getting it done. I could also see a religious leader becoming a Bondsmith. After all, Ishar was seen as sort of the spiritual leader of the Heralds/Radiants. Even Dalinar is kind of a spiritual leader in a way, a lot of what he does has to do with interpreting the Vorin religion and what it says about how people should act in light of the things they learn over the course of the series. He doesn't have a lot of followers yet, but he's basically starting a new sect of the Vorin religion.

I guess to be the voice of dissent here - aren't those common phrases that are often used without special meaning? I mean, those are common phrases you would hear people say when they are doing repetitive work like that. It's normal to develop a rhythm for work. It always could be a subtle way of saying Moash is getting influenced by the Fused, but I think it's just as likely to be language used to express the monotony of the work and how Moash takes comfort in the ability to tune out and forget his pain and guilt by focusing on his work.

Definitely an interesting topic. Here are my thoughts as to why Desolations end. I think it changed over time as both sides learned more strategy and tactics. Early Desolations: In the early years, things were probably mostly fought straight up. The Heralds were still sane and idealistic. The Fused were also still fully sane and likely thought there was a chance they could win in a straight up battle. Most likely, the Heralds did eliminate all or most of the fused and then voluntarily returned to Braize. So, early on it probably was fought like the default assumption - the Desolation was ended voluntarily by the Heralds after they had killed all known Fused. The "time limit" existed at this time, but never came into play as a war ender. I think this probably lasted for the first 2-3 desolations. Middle Desolations: In the middle years, the Heralds were losing their idealism and sanity. For them, it was becoming a more desperate struggle to balance saving their people, upholding their oaths, and saving themselves from torture. This is when they started dreading ending the desolations. For the side of the Fused, I think this is when they started realizing they could not win a straight up fight with the Heralds and Radiants. They started the "total war" tactics described by the OP. The Fused started losing their sanity as well. My suggestion of how the desolations ended at this time and how the time limit came into play is that the time limit starts when the Fused stop attacking humans. So - some Fused who are insane or lost to bloodlust would charge in and fight the Heralds in pitched battle. Once these were defeated, the Heralds returned to Braize. Other Fused, who stayed sane and were more strategic would stay behind and cause havoc after the Heralds leave. However, this strategy is only partly effective - by this time the Knights Radiant are the main fighting force of Team Honor. The Radiants still defeat these "left behind" Fused who are less effective since not all of them are around. Late Desolations: In the late years, the Heralds are all insane except Taln and have basically become psychological casualties of war. They keep fighting out of obligation and habit, but in general are no longer fighting in a strategic way. They are just worried about self preservation, except Taln. The Fused are mostly insane as well at this point, consumed by bloodlust and rage. They've learned that their "stay behind" tactics are not effective. If all of them were sane, they could try a "mass stay behind" tactic where they all stop attacking to trigger the time limit on the Heralds, but too many are insane to make that tactic work. As time goes on, the Fused are more and more likely to just throw themselves into battle blindly at the first opportunity because they can't think strategically anymore. The ones who do think strategically have less and less ability to keep the others in check. The Fused continue their total war/genocidal war strategy. If you are Odium you are thinking things are going well. It's a war of attrition - the side of Honor is losing. The Radiants are holding strong, but the humans in general have been knocked back into the Stone Age and the Heralds are going insane. Your own Fused are also going insane and most are no longer capable of good military tactics, but this still works for you. If they just go out in massive wave attacks, they'll kill more and more humans. They die, go back to Braize, torture the Heralds for a few years, then come back and kill more humans a few years later. By the time of the last desolation, they've almost succeeded. We know from Taln, the humans were basically cavemen during the last Desolation. The insane, bloodlust filled Fused likely try to go for the throat and try a massive pitched battle where they think they will win it all. They know that even if they lose, they'll get another shot in a few years when the Heralds break again. Due to the luck of battle, only Taln dies. This results in the long pause between desolations, wrecking Odium's strategy and resetting everything. So, TL;DR - Desolation ending timer starts when the Fused stop attacking Humans. Most Fused are too insane and filled with bloodlust by the time they realize this to make effective use of the strategy and the Knights Radiant are strong enough to defeat the ones that do with the help of the Heralds. Odium's plan is to win a war of attrition by grinding humans down and he almost succeeds. The plan only fails due to none of the weak Heralds being sent back to Braize the last time. If other Heralds had gone back, one of them would have broken within a few years and kept the cycle going until the humans were destroyed. Even the Knights Radiant would have been ground to dust if they had no support from the general population.

I think you answered your question yourself in your post. He was a bad king. Like you said, it's possible that if Gavilar had lived longer he may have been able to establish a strong government and bureaucracy that would have been able to compensate for his son's weaknesses. But, that doesn't mean he would have been a good king if those things had happened. It just means others would have covered for his failures. It's sort of like what might have happened if Augustus Caesar had died young - Rome would have been a much different place. It may have torn itself apart.

When Sanderson set up that chart for OB, he specifically tracked the appearances of 7 characters. Those are the 7 characters he felt were important enough to track individually. He also had POVs from several characters that were not tracked individually. I don't think it's logically valid to assume that "Novelette 1" should be treated equally with "Tertiary Character 1." If it were, we would also have to treat the entry "Book 1" to be equivalent. Sanderson often talks about how he plots the SA novels as a series of three books, plus additional novelettes and short stories woven within. In his outline, it seems clear to me that he was seeking to demonstrate how that structure lined up with how he wrote OB. But, I think at this point I'm not going to convince you, you're not going to convince me, and I think we can both agree it doesn't really matter that much. I think we can agree there are at least some characters that will have POVs in the books that are not specifically mentioned. I'm not saying you need to add this to your chart or anything like that. I'm just saying, it's reasonable to expect his outline and list of 9/10 characters for RoW is not precise. I personally think that Adolin is plotted differently than other major characters. In general, Adolin has never had a major plot of his own - he doesn't try to make things happen based on his own goals or ambitions. He helps the other characters in their work. This doesn't mean anything negative about him as a character, it's just how things are. Because of that, I think he's plotted differently than the others. His POVs are inserted where they can help Sanderson tell the story better. The characters listed individually in his outlines are listed there because they have plots of their own that he needs to track and interweave. Adolin may not be tracked, because he is a supporting character without his own plot. This makes sense if you look at the OB chart, imo. But, I can appreciate where you're coming from and I don't want to derail the thread any further with my own pet theories.

Sure - I didn't notice the second part of the line about Szeth and Eshonai, so I'll give you that one. He did say they would be counted as Tertiary Characters for the purpose of his chart. I don't want to get into too much more discussion of the OB outline. The point I'm making is that he lists 5 named Tertiary characters, plus he says there is more than one character he won't name due to spoilers in terms of how he filled out the chart. Only 4 tertiary characters appear in the chart. This means that he has not directly said in the WoB exactly who the 4 "Tertiary Characters" were, he's said it's 4 out of these 5+ possible characters. Outside the top 3 and flashback, the following characters had at least 5k words written from their perspective in order from most to least: Adolin, Venli, Szeth, Moash, Navani, Rock, Jasnah, Taravangian. So let's just assume for a minute that word count by character is what qualifies to be listed in Sanderson's chart and plot things out: Oathbringer: Primary Main: Dalinar (~140k with flashbacks) Secondary Main: Shallan (~105k) Secondary Main: Kaladin (~75k) TC1: Adolin (~21k) TC2: Venli (~14k) TC3: Szeth (~13k) TC4: Moash (~12k) Not listed: Navani (~9k), Rock (~8k), Jasnah (~7k), Taravangian (~6k) Future Flashback Characters Not Listed, but Had Smaller POVs: Renarin (3k), Shalash (1k) This means that 4 characters with significant screen time, some of which are confirmed "tertiary characters", did not appear in Sanderson's outline for Oathbringer. Two additional characters who would also likely fall into the "Tertiary" category because they are future flashback characters also appeared in the book, but not the outline. If you want to say we should only put the named "Tertiary" characters in the Tertiary slots, then you have two characters (or 3 if you don't count Venli) that don't appear on the outline as individual line items with significantly more screen time than two who do. This is solid proof that his outline from Oathbringer did not identify the number of characters that would get significant POV time in the book. Apply this to Rhythm of War: Group 1 is listed at 5 characters and groups 2 and 3 are listed as 2 each. I'm saying that it's likely that a character from the "Tertiary" list will appear in the book with a significant page count, but will not be one of the official 9 characters from Sanderson's Rhythm of War outline. Based on the Oathbringer outline, I feel like it makes sense to say that Adolin, while playing a very significant role in the book, was not one of the characters listed individually on the outline. But even if I'm wrong about Adolin in Oathbringer, the point in general stands - there will be more than 9 characters with significant POVs in the book.

Yeah, I saw it and read it before you posted it as well. There are inconsistencies within that quote. It doesn't really dispute my arguments. It actually reinforces what I'm saying - he doesn't always mean the exact same thing when he says "tertiary character". When he says it generally, it seems to be referring to the entire Stormlight Archive series. When it appears in an outline chart, it is relative to the specific story being told in that book. He lists at least 5 characters (3 named characters, plus "a few" he says he can't name) as the "actual tertiary characters", while there are only 4 Tertiary Character slots in his chart. This means that his statement you have quoted was not a 1 to 1 exact representation of how he created his chart. My guess is that he views several characters as "tertiary characters" for the series overall, but he felt that only 4 characters were important enough to the story of Oathbringer to have their own line item in his outline for that particular book. He creates a category of "important characters" for Szeth and Eshonai but no characters with that designation appear in his outline for Oathbringer. Szeth is clearly one of the "Tertiary Characters" from the outline based on his appearances in OB, but is intentionally excluded from his "Actual Tertiary Characters" list. Finally, Adolin, who is named as an "Actual Tertiary Character", does not have his appearances line up closely at all with the outline for any "Tertiary Character". And to relate this back to the RoW outline which was my purpose to begin with - it's clear that even though he listed 7 characters in the OB outline there were 15 who had more than one POV and 12 with at least 5 POVs, 11 with at least 5k words written from their POV. He's listed 9 characters in the RoW outline, but there could be 3-4 more characters with a significant number of POVs even though they don't appear on his list for RoW. We know that there were "tertiary characters" who appeared and had multiple POVs in OB but did not get dedicated slots on the chart. This means Adolin, or others could appear with multiple POVs but not be counted in the 9 characters of the three groups. *edit* Also saw you were referencing the anonymous WoB. I don't feel overly skeptical toward it, it seems likely to be true. But, I don't think it disputes what I'm saying - that Adolin could have multiple POVs without being accounted for in the 3 groups.

I don't think you're reading the charts correctly, or maybe you're referencing a different one. In the Reddit Update #5, the most up to date one is the one with the hyperlinked text "more like this". I cross referenced that with the OB analysis and don't agree that Adolin or Jasnah fit any of the Tertiary Character slots. Tertiary Character 1: Appears in Parts 4 and 5 Tertiary Character 2: Appears in Part 2 Only Tertiary Character 3: Appears in Parts 4 and 5 Tertiary Character 4: Appears in Parts 4 and 5 Adolin: Appears in all Parts, not close to aligning with any Tertiary Character and is not Primary or Secondary Jasnah: Appears in Parts 2 and 5, not aligning with any Tertiary Character. You could possibly consider her "Tertiary Character 2", but it makes no sense since she has so few POVs in Part 2 relative to Moash. Most of her POVs are in Part 5, while TC2 should have most of its POVs in Part 2 with possible small appearances in other Parts. Moash: Appears in Part 2 with 2 short POVs in Part 5 and has the most POVs of any character in Part 2 other than Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan by a significant margin. Logically, should be the Tertiary Character in Part 2. Navani and Szeth we agree on, both appear in Parts 4 and 5 only. Venli: Appears in Parts 4 and 5 Only plus interludes, mostly aligning with a Tertiary Character slot. Short Stories and Novelettes - Those are not tied to specific character POVs. They are just the writing structure he used. Just like I don't consider "Book One" a character grouping, it's still listed with a bar. The short stories are mostly completely side stories only tangentially related to the main plot. The novelettes I could see 1 being Venli's story and the other being either Bridge 4 or Moash's story. But, being part of a novelette doesn't preclude a character from being a "Tertiary Character" at least as I see it. I could see a possible argument for Adolin over Venli, since his most significant parts of the story are in Parts 4 and 5 and most of Venli's POVs are in interludes, but I don't see any case for Jasnah as one of the "Tertiary Characters" from the outline. Either way, it seems like Adolin's appearances are an oddity. He gets a lot of unscheduled appearances in OB, regardless of whether you think he's Tertiary Character 1/3/4 who should appear only in part 4 with a small part in part 5 or you think he's totally outside the structure like I do. So I think we should assume that his appearances, like they did in OB, will not align with Sanderson's outline.

Something has been in the back of my mind for a while on Adolin's involvement and I think I've finally been able to put it on a little more solid ground. If you look back at the equivalent outline for OB and cross reference it to who appears in what sections in the final book, Adolin doesn't seem to have been counted on the list of primary, secondary, or tertiary characters (Primary - Dalinar, Secondary - Kaladin, Shallan, Tertiary - Moash, Navani, Venli, Szeth). https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182-stormlight-three-update-5/. Obviously, Sanderson's mind can change about who counts as a character worthy of "counting" in the list of POVs. But in OB, he lists 7 POV characters in his outline when the total actual characters with more than one POV was 15. In every book, Adolin has had 4th place in POVs but is also not counted at least for OB as being even a tertiary character. It seems like Sanderson has his own system of who is considered an important POV not necessary based on number of POV sections in a book or word count from each character's view. So, I think it's possible and probably even likely that Adolin is not being counted in Sanderson's chart for RoW. I think it's also likely that he has more POVs than several of the characters who are counted in the chart.

Well, I can respect what you're saying for sure. I just think your terminology is a little bit inconsistent with what you're saying. I get your point - that a person can be "good" without being 100% good. I mean, in casual terms that's how I think of things too. Generally I think of someone who wants to do what's right and makes an effort as a good person. But in terms of discussions about morality and moral systems, I try to be more precise with wording and meaning (not that I always succeed). If we talk about a black and white morality system, it means that any action or any person can only be good or evil. There is no scale. Hold the door for an elderly lady at the grocery store - 1.0 score, sacrifice your life to save your friend, 1.0 score. Tell a lie to get yourself off work, 0.0 score, commit a mass shooting, 0.0 score. You're a 1 or a 0, good or evil. You can't be more good or less good because there is only good and evil, pure black and pure white. That is a black and white morality system. I agree with you that people should generally be held more or less responsible or be considered more or less good or evil based on their knowledge and capabilities. But that is a moral relativist belief. For example, a young child or a mentally handicapped person might not understand what it means for a person to own something. So, I would consider that person "less" evil if they were to steal from someone, because they didn't understand what they were doing. But if there is a more and a less evil, then there are shades of grey. I think where our views differ is that you believe there are shades of grey with a dividing line in between, that says to the left of this line is white and to the right is black. In my view, the better way to look at it is to say "This is a light gray" or "This is a dark gray" or "This is pure black." Anyway, just my two cents here.

I don't define murder as the shedding of innocent blood. I go by the legal definition, since murder is a legal term at least in my view. Basically, killing someone by choice when you do not have the legal right to do so for reasons like self defense, as an executioner, or as a legal combatant during war. I understand what you're saying regarding a person being good or bad. But I'm also pointing out that what is good and what is bad is difficult to determine at a certain point. Certain things and certain people we can say are good or evil with a pretty high level of confidence. But others are not so clear. For example, I have a family member on my wife's side who was known by his community and church as a great man. He was always kind to even the lowest people in society and donated his time and money to help those in need, so much so that he lived a life of near poverty himself. I went to his funeral a few years ago and was shocked that my wife's family had mixed feelings about him and some even refused to attend his funeral. That's when I learned that he also treated his wife badly. He wasn't physically abusive, but he was mean and borderline emotionally abusive. He gave away their money without talking to his wife such that they could barely make ends meet and invited dangerous people who were known criminals into their home who took advantage of them. Was he good or evil? I say neither. He did too much good to be called evil, but he did too much evil to be called good. I feel like if you call a person a "good person" at least in this context of absolute morality, then they have to be fully good. I'm not saying slavery was justified or right. What I am saying is that there were people who did sincerely believe that it was justified and right. There are a lot of things that were considered good and right historically that are considered gruesome crimes today. Morality changes over time. For thousands of years of human existence, slavery was considered to be justified. Only in the last few years have we decided it is wrong. Even though it seems absolutely wrong today, can we be sure than in another few hundred years slavery will become acceptable again? Aside from slavery, what about war? As recently as the early 1900's most people around the world believed that war did more good than harm overall. It was a common belief that war brought out all the best human qualities and that only by facing mortal danger could you truly become a full adult. Yet today, we view war as a necessary evil that is more often than not a waste of the lives of some of our best and brightest young people. Anyone today who wanted to go to war to conquer some territory and give our young soldiers a chance at fame and glory would be condemned. I get your point about there possibly being an absolute moral code that exists that may be beyond current human understanding. It's possible, but humans have been studying this for hundreds and even thousands of years and haven't come up with it yet. That doesn't mean it's not out there, but it makes me doubt it. I think Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative is the theory that comes closest, but even Kant himself did not feel he'd got it right. Unfortunately, doing objective good is not as simple as doing what a person feels is right. That is entirely subjective, based on societal and cultural expectations along with a person's own DNA and unique personality. I've known too many decent people who had views that were too different to believe otherwise. Think about today's hot topics that all hinge on moral values: COVID-19 Response, Capitalism/Communism/Socialism, Worker's Rights, Civil Rights of Various Types, etc. If there were an absolute moral code, the answer to these questions would be easy. But there isn't one, or at least like you said there isn't one people know.

And yet - if Moash were the ultimate pure evil you seem to be suggesting here why would he spare the life of Elhokar's son? It would have been easier to just run them both through, but he intentionally spared the child. Moash is a grey character - he's done bad things, but for understandable and even sometimes noble reasons. Murder has a specific meaning, not tied to moral context. You can equally murder an innocent child and an evil dictator. I personally would not define myself as "good" or "evil." I wouldn't call myself evil - I've got a clean criminal record, generally try to be a nice person, etc. It'd be a pretty big stretch to call myself evil. But if my only other option is "good" - that doesn't seem right either. It feels like presenting this choice where you are either Ghandi or Hitler. I don't think I'm morally close to either of those two. I've done things that are both good and bad in my life, like pretty much everyone else. I personally think that to call a person "good" or "evil" is not the right way to look at things in most cases. The individual actions are good or evil but the person as a whole contains both good and evil. Only a few people could be truly called good, and only a few could be truly called evil. The answer to this question is fairly simple - perception is reality. Most people from most value systems believe Hitler was evil, therefore he is. The same is true for stealing - most people believe stealing is wrong, therefore it is. If most people believed stealing wasn't wrong (and there are historical real world societies where this was true), then it wouldn't be wrong. The issue with an absolute moral system is that it requires a set of absolute moral values. For example - doing A, B, C is always good while doing X, Y, Z is always evil. No one has ever been able to develop an absolute moral system that can be objectively proven to be correct. You and I would say that cannibalism is morally wrong, but a hundred years ago certain Polynesian tribes would have argued that it was not only necessary but actively morally good. That eating parts of an enemy's body was honoring and respecting them and that it's morally wrong to refuse to eat these body parts. Which is right? That's not even getting into differing religious views and the associated conflicting moral systems, or other deeply rooted moral values held by different societies and cultures. I think that morality is something that is personal to everyone. We can all agree on certain things like murder is bad, stealing is bad, etc but certain things will be decided by each person's own moral code whether that is self developed or based in religion.

I really like Karger's idea as a cool possible plot, but I think as we know it's not guaranteed to happen. A lot of the conversation in this thread has been about the idea of a mission to try to convince spren to bond with humans again. While that definitely could happen, there's no guarantee it will. I do agree with Pathfinder that just because Adolin and Shallan are shown in Shadesmar doesn't mean their plot for the book is centered on the idea of going to Shadesmar. In other books the cover has been a cool, iconic scene that isn't too spoilery. If anything, I think this cover may indicate that the major plot for Adolin and Shallan is not a mission to Shadesmar just like WoK's cover was not an indication that Dalinar's major plot was to stare at people across chasms, etc. My suggestion is a little different: Shallan is trying to complete her mission from the Ghostbloods to recruit Sja-anat alongside her mission from the Radiants which will likely be to try to get Urithiru up and running again. This mission will take her to Shadesmar for a short time - maybe she thinks she can find or talk to Sja-anat or other spren there. Or maybe she thinks she can find clues there. She brings Adolin along because he'll be useful and he's her husband so she just wants him around. What she finds will be critical to the plot - but it's not shown on the cover. I think it's possible Adolin could be a POV character, or he might not. The other POV character could be Jasnah or someone else. I also think that it's not a huge stretch to assume that another Elsecaller has come to Urithiru and is with Shallan to help her go back and forth to Shadesmar - or Navani has invented a fabrial to let her do it by studying Jasnah. Or - crazy idea here - what if the other POV character with Shallan is actually Venli?? Seems super unlikely in some ways (which is why I'm calling it a crazy thought) but we know Venli will become a Willshaper and have the capability of the Transportation surge. What if Venli is assigned to get Sja-anat to come back fully to the side of Odium and she runs into Shallan during that mission early in the book? We've all assumed that it would be Kaladin who helps bring the Parsh over to the side of the Radiants because of his ties with them, but he has no ties specifically to Venli. Shallan with Venli would make total sense in a lot of ways - Shallan struggles with multiple identities and Venli also struggles with that in certain ways - she wants to be true to herself and her people, but doesn't agree with her people's choice to submit to Odium and the Fused. This would also explain why Venli's flashbacks wouldn't start until Part 3. Maybe she doesn't meet Shallan until then, or doesn't start cooperating until then.

Yeah, agreed. It's pretty likely that they are together and Group 2 would make sense. I would say it's not 100% certain but pretty likely. The other possibility being that Shallan is part of one of the other groups (or in Group 2 with someone else) and Adolin gets no POVs. I could see it being possible that Adolin's just sort of brought along by Shallan when she needs muscle, etc. The book cover doesn't necessarily reflect the major narrative of the story - for example WoR cover shows Szeth and Kaladin who have only one or two scenes together and Szeth's POVs are only in the interludes. But still the cover art always shows a key iconic scene from the book. So something cool is going to happen in Shadesmar with Shallan and Adolin. And all the finalist covers are awesome!