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I guess I could do better with using more precise language. The Rosharan characters don't know that worlds exist other than those introduced within Rosharan myth and legend. They know about Braize and Ashyn because that is part of their history. They don't know about Scadrial, Nalthis, etc. They believe the only way to travel to other worlds is through the Vorin religion, being a good person will send you to fight for the Tranquiline Halls in the afterlife. Jasnah and others who don't follow the Vorin religion probably don't believe it's possible to travel to other worlds except with the help of a Shard. The references from Navani's Prologue and Ialai's brief conversation with Shallan were vague. They also aren't clear - they don't state directly that there are other planets. Ialai's comment that Gavilar saw "entire worlds" would most likely be taken figuratively by Shallan. Whatever method it was that Gavilar was using to transport things off Roshar was very imperfect. This would be the maximum extent of his and Ialai's knowledge. It feels like a teaser for fans. Shallan will definitely be exploring the ideas and hints left behind by Ialai, but I don't think she will learn everything. The Ghostbloods will actively hide this secret from Shallan and they have gotten the better of her at every opportunity thus far. I would compare it to the mystery of the Voidbringers. It was introduced in WoK - who and what are the voidbringers? Jasnah was doing a lot of research and had some ideas of what she thought they were, but she didn't know for sure. By the time of late WoR, Shallan had become convinced she was right and then at the end of WoR we saw it play out. If we follow a similar arc for this mystery, then we would expect that it might be solved in SA5. The idea of travelling between worlds is a major mystery. I don't think it can be introduced and resolved within a single book. I also think it's a real possibility that Shallan never is able to fully solve the Ghostblood mystery in the Front 5. My personal prediction is that as SA5 draws to a close, the Ghostbloods step out of the shadows and reveal themselves as worldhoppers who are looking to seize power on Roshar for themselves. The main heroes have to ignore them to focus on their battle with Odium and the Fused. They save the planet, but there are consequences, setting up the Ghostbloods as the major villain of the back 5 and leading our heroes on a chase across the cosmere to find them. Our heroes are indeed outmatched through no fault of their own. I'm reading the story of Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar. I want to see how they grow and adapt and eventually learn to defeat the ultimate evil. I don't think they've acquired their Radiant skills easily. All three of the major heroes have struggled and suffered greatly to develop their skills. None of the three have mastered much more than half their abilities yet. They've got a lot of room to grow. Heck, we've seen both Kaladin and Shallan regress significantly in the last book. I don't want to see the story of how everything they did was mostly unimportant and how Vasher and Vivenna arrived to save the day. This is the story of Roshar, the story of Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar and their friends and allies. It shouldn't be one upped by the story of Nalthis and Vasher, Vivenna, and Nightblood. They got their own story, which was great, but let's leave it be. Nightblood is different because he originates from another story which I dislike due to the idea of one-upmanship and because fan theories about him/it are extremely annoying. If Nightblood were original to Roshar, I would still find its concept annoying, but would probably tolerate it. I agree, but I don't believe it will be revealed to the characters in RoW. Travelling to Shadesmar does not mean Shallan will travel to other worlds. Shallan and Jasnah have both done it by the end of OB and neither have ventured to other worlds. I don't think the mission to the Honor Spren in Shadesmar will lead to a trip to another world. I think it might lead to Shallan picking up on the idea that the Ghostbloods may be from another world.

I guess I'm saying multiple worlds being in contact as an actual plot element. There are vague hints that clued in fans can pick up on currently. But those are not part of the plot of the story. If you only read Stormlight, you wouldn't know that there are references to other Cosmere books currently. None of the Rosharan characters, including Jasnah, know that other worlds exist or that it is possible for them to travel to other worlds. I hope that it stays that way for the front 5. Maybe there will be a "post credits" reveal that there are dangers from other worlds that provide the hook for why the story isn't finished going into the back 5, but I think/hope that the front 5 will remain a tight story confined to Roshar. I expect that in the back 5 is when there will be actual plot in Stormlight related to traveling to (or from) other worlds. Rather than minor easter eggs with no plot relevance as it has been up through the currently release RoW chapters, in the back 5 you may start to see outsiders openly travel to Roshar. Maybe if they are still around, Vasher and/or Azure will reveal their true origins. Maybe the Ghostbloods will be revealed as worldhoppers. Maybe Jasnah will go on a mission to another Shardworld to get some kind of relic. It will still be on the fringes of the story, which will still be centered around Roshar. But, it will be openly explored. I agree with the general premise - it's cool if Rosharan characters branch out and find the way to contact other worlds at some point. It's also cool if we find out at some point that an evil organization of worldhoppers is a major antagonist. The only thing that isn't cool is if our favorite Rosharan heroes are proved incompetent and have to have their bacon saved by a prominent worldhopper from another series.

Hmm interesting. Based on the fact that he contradicts himself a bit, it's most likely that he hasn't set his plans in stone yet. Maybe SA back 5 do start to introduce the concept of multiple worlds being in contact, but it still plays only a small role. Then, Mistborn 4 is finally the fully integrated Cosmere. This is the kind of thing that will probably change over time as he finishes more of the books.

This is not true. He's maintained for a long time that he has intentionally set up the Cosmere so that you don't have to follow and know tons of details about all his series to understand any one series. He does want it to be possible for someone to read only Stormlight or only Mistborn, etc. At some point, the stories of the individual planets will converge, but this is not set to happen in the 10 Stormlight Archive books. He is starting to drop more open hints for readers that there is more to the world but the vast majority of characters themselves don't know it yet. Sanderson has said things similar to the below on multiple occasions. This sentence alone gives me shivers. I can't wait for all of it. And I hope that everything comes together as you plan and hope. Brandon Sanderson I'm always hesitant to make Avengers comparisons, as the cosmere endgame is less about individuals coming together (though there will be some of that) and more about the clash between philosophies and cultures. But who knows? That is several decades away. Right now, I just need to keep working on Stormlight Four. General Reddit 2019 (Dec. 10, 2019) Odium is aware of Nightblood and what he is though Odium's knowledge is only hinted at in the books and confirmed by WoB, not directly stated. So far as we know no one else on Roshar other than Vasher and Azure (and probably Cultivation) are aware of Nightblood's true nature. I will grant that vaporizing a Thunderclast does give a hint that Nightblood's powers may be greater than a regular shardblade. But, for all other enemies the effects are similar to a shardblade - pretty much one hit kill, with more drawbacks - stormlight drain. As of right now, the Radiants don't really know Nightblood's true power or nature. They can guess, but they don't know. I do think Azure is chasing Vasher, but if she catches him, she will be meeting with him. I could see Szeth giving Nightblood away. I don't think Szeth particularly likes Nightblood, he nearly died the one time he used him. I don't think that Sanderson has said that the back half of Stormlight is going to start bringing Cosmere characters together. In fact, I think he's said the opposite, see above WoB. Cosmere characters won't come together until the very final cosmere series, Mistborn Era 4. Aluminum is a weak counter to Nightblood. Superior swordsmanship could defeat someone with a shield or armor made of aluminum. Aluminum is a weak metal - so physical force could penetrate it relatively easily. And you may not have been following it, but there is a huge amount of fan speculation (and recorded questions from fans to Sanderson about this topic) that Nightblood could indeed one hit KO anything in the Cosmere including Odium. I think in terms of what Sanderson actually intends, I don't think Nightblood will be used as a delete Odium weapon. I think Sanderson is trying to drop hints that Nightblood does have some limitations and he can't fully absorb the power of a being like Odium. But tons of fans disagree. I don't know that it's intended to dovetail into SA. As I understand it, Sanderson thought that Vasher was a cool character when he wrote him for WoK Prime and decided it would be fun to write a backstory about him which became Warbreaker. So Vasher isn't an Easter Egg exactly since he was always part of the SA story (though the fact that he's from another planet is), but Azure and Nightblood are.

No, I don't think it's lame to remove Nightblood from the story of Stormlight Archive. 1) If you are a reader of Stormlight Archive only, you do not know or have reason to suspect that Nightblood is any more powerful than a normal shardblade. Different, but not more powerful. So, as a reader of SA, you do not know that Nightblood is hyper powerful. 2) Nightblood has never been promised to be some kind of amazing, war winning weapon for Stormlight Archive. Nale gave the sword to Szeth because he didn't trust himself or the other Skybreakers to keep it anymore. He felt Szeth was a good enough person to choose not to use it. Having Azure take the sword would be a good wrap up of the Warbreaker Easter Egg plot. Vasher and Azure can meet again on their own adventure to recover Nightblood. They complete their mission and say their farewells. Maybe Azure leaves with the sword and Vasher stays. The Warbreaker characters stick to their own Warbreaker plot, which only briefly interacts with the Stormlight Archive plot. This would feel right and natural. The series is filled with extremely powerful characters, but those powers are always relative to their situation. Odium is extremely powerful and indeed could have killed Dalinar on page 1 of WoK. But he didn't, because Odium is playing a different game. Odium is essentially an evil god. He should be overwhelmingly powerful. But through good writing, Sanderson has put in place good reasons why Odium doesn't just kill Dalinar. Contrast that with Nightblood - in theory (especially if you believe certain fans) Nightblood can kill all enemies no matter how powerful with a single cut. Put Nightblood in the hands of a Windrunner or Skybreaker trained in swordfighting and you could eliminate all powerful enemies in one single mission. Sure, you would have to sacrifice one Radiant to do it. But the cost is much lower than the reward. Right now, the story reason why they don't do this is because they don't know Nightblood's capabilities. Which is also fine. If Nightblood is used like a worse version of a shardblade throughout the Stormlight Archive then I have no problem with it (aside from the annoying sense of humor it has). It could be a great irony - only after the final battle they learn how powerful the sword was. But if Nightblood suddenly becomes the solution to every problem, that is crappy storytelling.

Awesome chapter. Thoughts: I was right that Venli wants to create a third faction - opposed to both humans and Odium. Woo, at least one idea I had was right! Lezian the Pursuer - This must be the teleporting Fused that Kaladin killed. Sounds like this guy is going to hold a grudge, it will probably come up again. Really interesting that some spren have decided to choose to bond with Singers instead of humans. Makes total sense. Seeing that reaction, I wonder if Venli could persuade Nale to join her faction? I think he would join it, if he knew about it. He doesn't want to support Odium, only the Singers.

Diving into some past interviews, I see Sanderson did write Warbreaker as a way to explore the Vasher character he wrote for WoK Prime. I feel like things have changed a lot from then. Vasher's role in the published Stormlight Archive is different from what it was in WoK Prime. And having the Warbreaker characters too heavily involved in SA still violates what Sanderson has said in a lot of other interviews - that this isn't all about an Avengers Assemble moment where everyone from all the stories somehow get together. It's telling a story of how the various worlds of the cosmere eventually contact each other and how each world progresses along the way. I feel like for it to feel satisfying, if the people of Roshar are going to discover things like Worldhopping, it has to be their own discovery. Having Vasher or Azure waltzing in and telling them about it just takes away their agency as characters. Using Nightblood is not necessarily an instant win, but it has the capability of being one. Yes, he is dangerous to the wielder. But he is much more dangerous to the enemy. And if (like some fans speculate) even a shard like Odium could be killed with one cut from Nightblade, it's just much too powerful. There is no limit that can be placed on the sword that can make the power seem reasonable. I don't think that Vasher, Azure, or Nightblood will play major roles in SA4 or SA5. They'll continue to be minor, supporting characters. I have a feeling they will all leave Roshar without getting majorly involved. Azure already made it clear that's her plan, so has Vasher. Maybe in the back 5, but even then I don't think so. I think the most likely thing to happen is that Azure will find Nightblood and take him away, possibly while Szeth is in prison. Szeth will then use his own actual shardblade once he's released.

I do think Dalinar as king of Urithiru is a problem. I expect we might see this play out in RoW. I think the Bondsmiths are intended to be more like a ruling Triumvirate. When we do get another Bondsmith, I think we'll see Dalinar modify his title as "king" of Urithiru.

Several reasons: Story Based Reasons: 1) Szeth is still the Assasin in White, the most notorious and dangerous criminal on Roshar. No one likes him and no one trusts him. Think of our major characters. Kaladin - Fought and semi-killed Szeth, protecting his commanding officer. Would be very slow to trust the man who tried to kill the one Lighteyes he truly respects. Shallan - Doesn't really seem inclined to care much about Szeth and unlikely to have any reason to want to work with him. Probably knew about the Assassin in White who was responsible for sparking a terrible civil war in her homeland. I doubt she has much love for him. Dalinar - Was nearly killed by Szeth on multiple occasions. Szeth did kill his brother. Because he wants to Unite people and because Szeth has pledged his loyalty directly, he seems willing to give him a chance. But he has other pressures on him that are more important than trying to rehabilitate the image of a mass murderer who is not overly powerful or important to his fighting force. 2) Even if there is a close group of Radiants who have gotten to know Szeth in the last year and do trust him, the vast majority of political leaders are going to be even more prone to distrust him. This is probably why Dalinar put him in jail - Szeth was going around assassinating specifically people in power. Even if Dalinar himself has absolutely no doubts in Szeth (seems unlikely), all the other rulers will be adamantly opposed to Szeth being given any trust. Allowing Szeth to go free could break the alliance of nations. 3) No one (other than possibly Zahel/Vasher) knows that Nightblood can kill the Fused permanently. 4) There is no possible way for anyone on Team Radiant, including Szeth, to figure out that Nightblood can kill the Fused permanently. Meta Reasons: 1) Using Nightblood, a character/object that originated in another series, as a key factor in the ability to win in Stormlight Archive just seems really lame. None of the Knights Radiant can win their own battles? They need people to come in from the outside? Super lame. 2) Though he's always willing to humor his fans and talk about what if scenarios, I know Sanderson understands that all these ideas about how Nightblood could defeat all possible enemies in all situations are not practical for the story. If Nightblood could always defeat all possible enemies, what's the point of the story? Why have Mistborn, Stormlight Archive, or other future series if the solution to every problem is to have Nightblood come in and destroy all evil? Just call it the Nightblood series, have one book where Hoid wields Nightblood and defeats all enemies, destroying all Shards, and ending by dying to Nightblood himself. 3) In general, I believe that Sanderson has said the Warbreaker characters are intended to be more like Easter Eggs, not playing key roles in the overall plot. Personal Reasons: 1) Fan speculation about Nightblood has pretty much made me hate him/it. Please let him drop into a black hole so we don't have to hear about how every possible problem can be solved and all possible enemies (or friends) could be easily defeated by Nightblood.

Yes, I think that's important to point out and part of why I think it's much easier to have a character with depression vs. other kinds of mental illnesses. With depression, while it's always there, if it's well managed you can have long periods of "good" times where the depression is not as much in the foreground. Doesn't mean it's gone, just that you're able to handle it. I'm not sure this is the case with other mental health issues, though I'm not expert. I think we've seen Kaladin doing well with his depression in WoR and early OB, but we've seen him on a downward slope now since early-mid OB. It's time for him to turn it around and I think we will see that happen in RoW.

Thanks - yeah it's funny how memory can play tricks on you. In my memory, that 5th group 1 slot seemed to be 50/50 whether or not it would get POVs, but reading the WoB it seems much more to be saying the character will probably not get a regular chapter POV. You're right that what we've heard of Szeth does seem like he probably is that last Group 1 spot. Much as I don't want it to be true. It still could be someone else - such as Renarin or the Herdazian general for example. I feel like that general will be an important character in this book based on his introduction so early. It's possible Szeth could take a role like Navani has in most past books - still important but primarily only seen through other characters' eyes. But, yeah it does seem suspiciously like it will be Szeth with what we've heard.

These two things are not contradictory. Forgiving yourself for failing to protect is the same thing as not protecting. It's giving yourself permission to not protect everyone. So, it is the same as "not wanting to protect" in the eyes of someone like Kaladin who has this need to protect everyone all the time. I think the most likely thing is that swearing the fourth oath will at least make the struggle of want to protect/can't protect/shouldn't protect bearable for Kaladin. I think Kaladin will truly try to come to terms with the idea that he may never swear the 4th oath, and when he finally accepts that he can be OK with a different kind of life away from battle and not pressuring himself to grow, then he will finally actually achieve growth and be able to swear the 4th Oath. Anyway, it's an interesting idea. I could see Kaladin becoming a bit of a background character for a short time, but at most he would have to come back by mid RoW. Having a character that major just disappear without a trace would completely screw up the dynamics of how Sanderson is telling the story. I could see him vanishing between the front 5 and back 5, only to appear again at the last minute. But I can't see him vanishing in RoW, only to reappear in SA10.

Thanks I must not have caught that part. Well, I'll just downgrade it to - I don't want Szeth to be in Group 1 - then haha. I mean, the statement there does line up with what I'd expect - Szeth still should have some relevance in the story and appear in several chapters as one of the 5 flashback characters. I think this is the book he has to get in the good graces of the rest of Team Radiant. He could be Group 1, or theoretically Group 2 (sent to Shadesmar to stay out of the public eye) though that seems extremely unlikely. But, my hope/assumption is that he'll be teaming up with the Group 3 characters working on a secondary plot or providing some knowledge on the Skybreakers or Shin from his place in prison, eventually earning his way back out. Is there anything that says the minor Group 1 character's POV will definitely only be in an interlude? Last I'd seen, it was that they would have only one or possibly even no POVs and they may appear only in an interlude. There could easily be an update I missed though. I think it's going to be hard to pin down that minor Group 1 character until we actually read the book because there do tend to be characters who randomly get one or two POVs throughout the books but do not appear in the outlines that Sanderson sends out.

Dalinar telling Szeth to go to prison means the same thing as saying Dalinar imprisoned Szeth. I'm not sure if you thought I was implying Dalinar was serving as Szeth's jail keeper or that Dalinar personally built a special jail capable of holding him or something? Either way, all I'm saying is that Szeth is in jail because of Dalinar. If Szeth is in jail, you're right that the most likely location is Urithiru. But I just don't see a reason for him to be interacting with the characters of group 1. He's in jail, they don't like him, and they are busy with other things. I think if Szeth would be considered Group 1 especially without a POV during the Group 1 chapters, then I think he would need to have significant interaction with at least one of the Group 1 characters. I just don't see it. I don't think Dalinar can be Group 1. We've been told he has a smaller role in this book and he has no POVs in a part of the story marked as Group 1/Group 2. At this point, Dalinar is pretty much locked to Group 3. I think that Dalinar will be focused on something that is important, but different from what the main group is doing. He has to think Big Picture now and can't be involved with individual missions. So he's likely keeping track of the main mission and will come along to help when needed like he does for the Hearthstone evacuation, but his primary goal is something else. I do think Lirin is the most likely candidate for the 5th person in Group 1 though.

True- but I wouldn't expect Szeth to be Group 1 since he's imprisoned by Dalinar during the book. Or at least, starts off imprisoned. More likely Szeth just didn't make the list. Though I admit, it's also just my preference too - I don't particularly like the way Szeth never really had to prove himself to be accepted by the group in OB. You can kind of forgive it because there wasn't much choice then, but now they do have other choices. It would feel lame to have him as a tag-along in the main plot group, somehow accepted to be part of the most critical mission without proving himself yet. This probably puts Group 3 as Jasnah/Dalinar politics plot? Traditional Lineup: Group 1 - Navani, Kaladin, Venli, ???, 1 POV ? (Main fight + Fabrial Research) ???= Renarin? Rlain? Teft? Malata? 1 POV? = Lirin? Herdazian General? Group 2 - Shallan, Adolin (Mission to Shadesmar) Group 3 - Dalinar, Jasnah (Politics) Not Counted - Szeth, Ash, Taln, Lift Controversial Lineup: Group 1 - Navani, Jasnah, Shallan, Renarin, 1 POV? (Fabrial Research Team, Including Field Mission to Shadesmar. Adolin hangs with this group and gets some POVs but wasn't counted in the list due to not being a major player in the Research Team. Actual fighting plays secondary role vs. technology war) Group 2 - Kaladin, Venli (Kaladin - Diplomatic Mission to "Listener" Remnants for Character Growth + Main Fight) Group 3 - Dalinar, ??? (Politics + Main Fight) Not Counted - Szeth, Adolin, Ash, Taln, Lift

I wouldn't take it so far as saying the story is being hijacked by the DSM. In terms of Kaladin and his depression - it's such a common thing and so logical for someone with Kaladin's life experiences to have that I think it's great to capture it in a good way. In terms of Shallan, I'm not so sure that was a great choice. But, that's just my opinion. I think it just comes down to what type of fan you are. For me, I love the character interactions and their emotions as much as if not more than the fantastical power armor and giant magical swords. So, I love stuff like Kaladin's depression because it's widely relatable and feels real. And I feel like Sanderson walks the line well between making it annoying enough to be meaningful but not making the depression so deep and crushing it just makes you feel bad to read. I love Robin Hobb, and feel like the way she wrote FitzChivalry Farseer as a sad and lonely guy who still got stuff done when you needed him was an excellent example of this. I also read the books during a time in my life when I was living alone in a new town without a lot of friends, so it really resonated with me. But on the other hand I think she went on the wrong side of the line with her Soldier's Son trilogy. The protagonist was just too miserable.

Another point - many of the Fused are inhabiting bodies that belonged to former Alethi Parshmen who spoke Alethi. It could be that the body itself has that knowledge built in and the Fused are making use of it. I don't know if we know if the Fused inherit anything from the bodies they possess other than just the physical shell.

I think this is an excellent description of what's going on. I think in a way, Kaladin is almost Sanderson giving his thoughts on depresssion. We see Kaladin trying the same thing over and over to escape his depression and depressed feelings. It works for a while at first, but the bad feelings come back because as you said he never addressed the root problem. He gets diminishing returns each time. First he saves Bridge 4 and that makes him feel better for a while. Then, he saves Dalinar and learns to get over some of his prejudices against lighteyes and he feels better. But he can't just keep saving people. He comes to learn in OB that he can't save everyone. So he sees that what he is doing won't work anymore. And just like real life people who suffer from depression, it takes a conscious choice that you are going to do something different to really break out of the cycle. He's now being given the opportunity to make that choice. Really, I see this scene with Dalinar as super positive. He's being forced to make a change, which is the only way he can get better. Kaladin's a smart guy, but his nature is to charge forward and move on to the next problem rather than think about how to make things better. He's now been given a real opportunity for self reflection for the second time all series (the first self reflection was when Shallan forced him to realize how his views on lighteyes were often wrong, which led to significant personal growth for Kaladin and was one of my personal favorite scenes in the book). I think we'll see him forced work out why he keeps struggling so much mentally and that work will be super rewarding to read.

I don't think it's quite as simple as you're making it. It's not either "The Heavenly Ones" are totally good guys or totally evil treacherous snakes. It's that the Heavenly Ones are "Lawful Evil" moral alignment. They're both good in some ways and bad in others. In my view: Paired Dueling = Sincerely preferred fighting style, but used to their advantage whenever possible. It has pros and cons for both sides. On the one hand, the Windrunners put themselves in 1:1 duels even if they have a numbers advantage, which is a net advantage for the Fused. On the other, if the Heavenly Ones were willing to just go kill people they easily could and would gain an upper hand by killing enemy officers and other VIPS and killing the innocents would cause huge psychological stress to Windrunners. So the Heavenly Ones are also giving something up by choosing this fighting style. Having "Honor" = Sincerely held values, not out of a sense of "good" as our heroes would see it but out of a sense of what is right. Even villains have a moral system and see themselves as doing what they think is right. It doesn't mean the Heavenly Ones are nice people, it just means they think the best way of fighting is to challenge tough enemies in single combat. Moash/Vyre's Involvement/Association = Unknown. We have no idea if Leshwi or the other Heavenly Ones agree with Moash's methods. It's possible that they may object to him being assigned to work with them, but aren't willing or able to challenge their own leadership. We don't know how Leshwi feels about any of this. Sacrificing her Own People as Slaves = Subjective. First, it's reasonable that the Fused may not view the former Parshmen as being of their own people since for one they are thousands of years younger and two have only had their minds freed very recently so they are in some ways like children. The Heavenly Ones also may believe that sending less qualified troops out to die may be the overall strategy that would save the most lives in the end. Overall, I think there's enough there to say we should be suspicious, but not enough to say we should definitely believe that everything the Heavenly Ones are doing is an elaborate ruse designed to break the Windrunners. I think there's also plenty of evidence to say that there is at least some parallel between the Windrunners and Heavenly Ones.

Let's say Kaladin's story can be accurately modeled with the Hero's Journey template. If it is, his entire story should be contained within one "Journey". As probably the 1A lead character (to Shallan's 1B) I expect Kaladin will survive at minimum until the final battle at the end of the Front 5, so his Journey must continue at least that long. I personally think he'll survive longer. Here's my take. Note - there are no spoilers contained in this post, any references to future events are just speculation on my part. Call to Adventure: Kaladin is living as an ordinary soldier in Amaram's army and gains the opportunity to advance to greater heights by taking the shardblade from Helaran's corpse. Refusal of the Call: Kaladin refuses to take the shard blade because he knows accepting it would change his life forever. He gives the blade to Amaram, choosing to stay a common soldier. Acceptance of the Call: After dealing with the consequences of his refusal to start his adventure, Kaladin finds himself a slave in Sadeas' bridge crews. He slowly realizes that he is something more than average and with Syl's help he decides to try his best to use the power he's been given to help people. Threshold Guardians: Kaladin faces a series of challenges, but what truly launches him on the start of his journey to be who he will be is the battle at the end of tWoK where he rescues Dalinar and Adolin. He had the choice to leave them behind and remain in personal safety, but he chose to risk himself by fighting the Parshendi and saving Dalinar. After doing this was when he was first considered a hero. Belly of the Whale: Rescue of Elhokar and Swearing of 3rd Oath - Throughout WoR, Kaladin was just a soldier and bodyguard. Not important to the overall story and plot. He was acknowledged as a war hero for saving Dalinar and Adolin, but was still a small player in terms of the overall forces of good. He faces a huge personal challenge in letting go of his dislike of lighteyes and doing what he thinks is right, even to the point of fighting his closest friend to save someone he doesn't even like. After this, he saves Dalinar again and enters the public eye as a hero and one of the first new Knights Radiant. Tests Allies and Enemies: Mission to Alethkar - he goes on a relatively low stakes mission where he works with a key ally and love interest (Shallan) along with other important allies and faces Moash as a true enemy for the first time. This is a possible hint that Kaladin's final direct enemy confrontation will be with Moash. Approaching the Innermost Cave: Current state - struggling with his inability to deal with his emotions, unable to say the 4th Oath. He is clearly stuck right now - can't advance his personal relationships or his radiant abilities due to the same underlying issues. He will stay on "the approach" until he can resolve the problems he has with his inability to let go. The approach to the Innermost Cave is all of Kaladin's prep to be ready to fight in the final battle of the front 5 Stormlight books. It will culminate in him saying the 4th Oath. The Ordeal (future): After saying the 4th Oath, Kaladin will face his part in the final battle during SA5, presumably playing a major role in winning the day for Team Radiant. Seizing the Sword (future): In the final battle, Kaladin will say his 5th Oath or gain some other power up. This will result in a paradigm shift in the nature of his power and abilities, where all previous powerups have been only incremental gains. It will leave him in a position of great power at the end of the "Front 5". Refusal of Return/Road Back (future): In the falling action of SA5 Kaladin will have the choice to return to a more simple life and start a family, ruling some small area as a minor lord. His other choice will be to remain in power, leading the Windrunners and maintaining a large role in government and/or Radiant leadership. Demonstrating character growth, he will choose to set down his burdens and lead the life of a minor, rural noble. He will finally allow himself to be peaceful and happy. Death of Our Hero (future): Kaladin will choose to leave the life of a hero behind after SA5. During the 10-15 year gap he will have started a family and lived a simple life. He will no longer be the Kaladin Stormblessed who must wade into every combat and save every poor young soldier. Resurrection (future): In SA6, Kaladin will be called back to battle when something messes up the world again. He will eventually, reluctantly answer the call. Master of Two Worlds (future): At some point in the "Back 5", Kaladin will learn to balance being a father and family man with being a Windrunner doing each when it is called for. He'll be filling a role similar to Jasnah in the Front 5 - few POVs but still important to the story.

This kind of illustrates my point and why I dislike the Hero's Journey. There are plenty of examples of stories and legends which fit the Hero's Journey template well. Enough that someone got the idea that -all- stories must fit the template. But not all stories do fit the template if you read them start to finish. So how do you explain that not all stories actually fit the template of the Hero's Journey? Well, the easy answer is to redefine what it means to fit the template. Instead of saying the whole story must fit the template, you say that one hero may have multiple journeys. If you break apart stories into random components that match the Hero's Journey template but not the actual storytelling and get creative and extra broad with how you apply the Hero's Journey template (death isn't really death, except when it is, traveling through the underworld must happen in every story, but we get to be creative about what it means to travel through the underworld, etc), everything fits again. We can now say every story matches the Hero's Journey! Instead, we should just say many stories fit the Hero's Journey, many are similar to the Hero's Journey but different in key ways, and some don't fit at all. No offense taken! I'll navigate to your other thread and continue any discussion there.

Becoming a Radiant is way too small scope for his goal in the entire series. If Kaladin's story can be fit into the Hero's Journey template, then the template should match up to his entire story. If we're thinking of an overall Kaladin arc as a hero's journey those milestones you listed don't make sense. The shardblade was not a gift, it was something he created himself through personal growth and advancement in his Radiant oaths. I guess you could say Moash tempted him to leave the journey and join the Elhokar assassination plot, but then he is still missing other steps that should precede the temptation. If his confrontation was with himself, it means his primary adversary was also himself, which makes no sense and is way too small scope for the story being told in the Stormlight Archive. I guess you could say he already had a small scope hero's journey in each of tWoK and WoR. WoK was the journey to escape slavery. WoR was the journey to become a Radiant. Maybe he started a new journey in OB to defeat the forces of Odium which is still ongoing. But that's my whole point - to say that every story is a hero's journey is fundamentally flawed. The entire concept of the hero's journey is so overly broad that you can twist it to say anything is a hero's journey. Kaladin's story is much more complex than that (if it wasn't, he would have rode off into the sunset already) and we only know part of it so far. The only way to make it fit is to twist the idea of a hero's journey to say that Kaladin now has multiple hero's journeys. The point is - it's so broad and generic and open to interpretation that it can't be used as a way to predict Kaladin's future plot. It's something that can only be assigned afterward.

I mean... when you take a super broad outline you can work anything into it. Hero's Journey is good for what it is - understanding that many stories share common elements and what that says about human psychology-, but you're taking drastically different things and characters and shoehorning them all into one outline. I don't think the Hero's Journey can be used to predict future story because it's too generic and really requires the entire story to put everything in perspective. It seems a little bit of a stretch to say that Kaladin is in the "On the Road Back" stage of a Hero's Journey at about the halfway mark in the story. I mean, he hasn't yet achieved his goal (defeat evil and keep his family and friends safe), which most of the models of Hero's Journey require before starting the road back. The examples you see for the road back are things like Frodo returning from Mordor. We're nowhere near any similar point in Kaladin's story. Once we've read SA4 and SA5, you will probably have to re-adjust your interpretation of how Kaladin's story fits the Hero's Journey. If I were to classify Kaladin's status in the Hero's Journey structure, I would say he's still on the "Road of Trials" phase. He's not yet been gifted an item of power, he's not yet faced temptation to leave his journey (though maybe this reassignment from Dalinar could grow into that), he's not yet faced a direct confrontation with the ultimate power (Odium), he's not yet come to a great and profound understanding of something he was missing that will allow him to complete his challenge (most likely learning to let go of past hurts, etc), and he's not completed his ultimate goal of defeating Odium and bringing peace to those he cares about.

Yeah - fair point. It is one of those things where different things strike people differently. I always chalked up the fatal flaw in the Kaladin/Shallan proto-romance to the nature of their relationship with each other and Adolin. I never felt they were attracted to illusions of each other or that they didn't really know each other - just that they weren't ever able to fully open up with each other. I think Kaladin and Shallan understood each other and the things they were attracted to in each other were real and deeply true aspects of their characters, but each hid the true vulnerabilities from the other. They only got to see maybe 75% of who each other were - the good without the bad. They hid the bad things from each other because they just hide them from everyone in general and it was especially inappropriate to open up to each other in particular. For Kaladin - it's not right to get emotionally close with another man's fiance and for Shallan she would have seen it as being unfaithful. Both Kaladin and Shallan have that in common - they don't want to let anyone see their weaknesses. The difference is that Shallan is willing to open up a little bit to Adolin because he's her fiance, and he figures out the rest of it from there. That's how I read it at least. But then, I probably identify most with Kaladin of all the POV characters - so I'm not sure that says a lot of good about my romantic intuition .

I think without going too far down the shipping road I think the issue w/ your take on Kaladin is that you basically dismiss him as a self-destructive desire that Shallan allows to play out. I don't think that's how it was presented in the book, actually I think it was presented the opposite. As far as who was better for her, I think in the end you are probably right that Adolin was the better choice. There's very little chance Kaladin could handle the Shallan we see in RoW. But it's a little dismissive to say Kaladin had no good qualities or that Shallan only showed interest in him as a manifestation of self-destructive tendencies. My read of the Kaladin/Shallan dynamic was that Shallan found Kaladin attractive in some ways. He had qualities she liked (intelligence, wittiness, etc) and were important to her in a man which Adolin lacked. But, through her own self discipline and desire to stay committed to Adolin, she did not allow herself to act on that attraction. She buried it deep. When it resurfaced later in the Veil personality, it was distorted through a weird lens. Gone were thoughts about the positive traits she admired in WoR, now it was just a weird animalistic lust. My take on that is it is her self-hatred expressing itself - she hates herself for not being 100% faithful to Adolin and reframes her mild attraction to Kaladin as completely negative.