agrabes

I think her choice makes a certain amount of sense - make the change while everyone's already off kilter and don't allow them to re-entrench themselves into a new norm that doesn't fit what you want. But I agree - rapid, widespread social reforms are generally a recipe for disaster. They're usually the cause (or result) of civil war and revolution. I can't see the slave owners (aka all or most members of the middle and upper classes) of Alethkar just sitting idly by while they are economically ruined by the loss of their slaves. There are really only three options for freeing slaves: 1) Set slaves free, no money changes hands, resulting in the economic ruin of slaveholders who had invested large amounts of money into purchasing the slaves. If you've got a certain political inclination, that probably sounds pretty good - raise up the common man and bring down the rich and powerful. On the other hand, the destabilization of your economy collapsing when most major businesses simultaneously fail is a pretty big downside. 2) Set the slaves free, but require them to pay back a slave debt to their former masters. This would prevent complete economic collapse, but would result in those slaves still being effectively slaves as they work to escape a debt they can never truly repay. At least their children would be free. 3) Set the slaves free, with the former slave owners reimbursed by the government. This could work, but probably depends on the financial state of the Alethkar kingdom. I will be interested to see how Sanderson handles this one. Even though freeing slaves is objectively a good thing, it's not an easy thing and crass as it may seem to say it does have serious negative societal effects in the short term which is why it took years and years to do in real history. I guess the easy way out would be for Navani to invent fabrials to take the place of the slaves and allow economies to continue by using machines to replace human labor. But I hope it doesn't go that way. I'd rather see Jasnah struggle with backlash to this - or cleverly defeat potential backlash.

I'm not sure that this idea feels particularly right to me. The linked thread looks like a lot of speculation that based on meta-analysis of things in the book, which (to me) doesn't hold a lot of water. I don't think it's a great idea to go and try to synthesize 20 values down to 10 just based on one line in WoK. It think it's much more likely that Kabsal's 10 divine attributes was something entirely different from the 20 in those other tables. Kabsal's 10 divine attributes and 10 human failings was probably much more tied to the Vorin religion and not tied to the properties of the Knights Radiant. I also don't think the idea of the number of Unmade corresponding to the number of Shards either in opposition or defeated by Odium makes sense either. We know he's only defeated a small handful. He hasn't defeated or allied with 7 of the remaining shards. I'm not sure my idea from earlier this year was right either. But thanks for the shout out.

I think it's an incorrect assumption to say that Shallan definitely has another secret in her past. I'm not saying it's impossible either. I just don't think it's a given that she either did something bad or had something bad happen to her in addition to what we saw in her WoR flashbacks. I personally think her remaining truth(s?) must be something about herself - her character. Not events that happened in her life. My personal opinion/guess is that the secret she struggles with is that her family was never as happy as she makes it out. I've been rereading the series leading up to OB and picked up on what I thought was an interesting piece of information. When Shallan talks with Wit as a child, he asks her to imagine the thing she wants most. After some prodding, she produces an image of her family all happy and healthy together - which implies that having a happy family is her greatest desire and her being a Lightweaver and Wit being Wit, it also implies that the idea of her family being happy is a lie. Shallan tells herself deep down that before she killed her mother, her family was happy and prosperous. She believes it was only after she killed her mother that things went bad. She believes that she is the one who caused her family's misfortunes. She hates herself for it. She blames everything on herself. She even tells Pattern that she hates herself in early OB. She completely defines herself in terms of her childhood trauma that she believes she caused. The secret (which isn't really a secret and was basically already revealed in WoR) is that her family was not happy even before her mother's death. Nothing was Shallan's fault - she didn't destroy her family. This isn't a secret from us, but it is a "secret" from Shallan herself. Something she won't allow herself to remember, because remembering it would change her entire identity and self image. I think we're being set up for it to be revealed in RoW. Her brothers are with her again. At some point, she'll reveal that she killed their mother. And then her brothers will say something like "Good riddance, she was even worse than Father." Hearing that will start her down the path of releasing her suppressed memories of life with her mother.

I don't think the idea of the Mink betraying the Radiants makes sense with his character. He's known as the general who fought on beyond all hope, continuing a guerilla war at huge costs to himself and his people. That kind of person is not going to give up and give in to the enemy, unless he's had his mind influence by Odium or the Unmade. It seems to me like the Mink has a personal dislike of Dalinar who led the wars that killed his family. But he also understands that the Radiants are really fighting a guerilla war in a lot of ways. The Mink will serve as a good counterpoint to Dalinar and even possibly a lesson to Kaladin. He will show them what an honorable leader can do if he wasn't born to inherit the most powerful army in the world. Dalinar doesn't know because he's been successful at everything he's ever done. Kaladin struggles because he has always been the underdog and it's getting to the point where he feels like giving up hope. I think you're right - Dalinar does still have things to learn. If you think about it Dalinar has never once in his life been the underdog (I guess unless you count his failed romance of Navani when he was young). He's never had to hold out in desperation, knowing he has no allies and no powerful help coming his way. I think the Mink is going to teach him that, in the wake of the Fused invasion of Urithiru - what to do and how to keep going when it seems completely hopeless and no one is coming to your rescue.

I think your conclusion is that Sadeas betrayed Dalinar only? My impression was pretty similar. It's been a while since I've read Oathbringer so my memory may be a bit fuzzy. My general feeling was that Sadeas saw that Dalinar and Evi were headed toward a collision. He considered it a weakness that Dalinar had allowed Tanalan to live. He probably also saw that Evi was taking the edge off Dalinar - softening him. Dalinar was already at that time trying to become a better man. Sadeas didn't want that. So he helped things along with an aim for one of two outcomes: 1) Dalinar dies, eliminating a weakening rival and allowing Sadeas' own power to expand or 2) Dalinar loses the things that soften him up (his wife and growing sense of honor, etc) and reinforces his view of himself as the Blackthorn, returning to his role as the enforcer for the kingdom.

I'll offer an alternate thought on Shallan's blurb - Freeing her spirit refers to becoming self confident. She's full of self doubt and confusion, as we saw in her most recent chapter, she's also falling under the influence of Mraize who is clearly now manipulating her and trying to make her into the kind of person who will serve him. I think freeing her spirit means returning her to a state where she is no longer being controlled by her mental illness or the influence of Mraize. I think Formless represents all the worst aspects of herself. This is being heavily foreshadowed in the chapters we see so far. It could turn out to be a red herring, but I don't think so. She needs to integrate Formless into herself rounding herself and her current "Three" into fuller personalities, so that a personality that contains only the negative parts does not come into being. The secret that condemns all the people of Roshar is not a secret from her own personal past. I think it is perfectly fitting with Shallan's character that though she views whatever this final secret is as something that makes her a vile, unlovable monster it is actually not that at all. She also felt her other secrets (Killing her Mother and Father) made her unlovable, but any neutral observer would not agree. She has to free her spirit - return herself to a place where she is fully functional - in order to be able to handle what it will take to uncover that secret. One part of that may be to recognize that what she did was not vile and did not make her unlovable. So what is the secret? I agree it has to be something big. My guess is she discovers the true cause of either the first Desolation or the Recreance. We know a bit about each of those events, but not the whole story. Either could be events that condemn the people of Roshar - the start of this endless cycle of war, or in the case of the Recreance I think there must be a deeper meaning behind it. Epigraphs indicate that the Skybreakers engaged in "subterfuge" against the other 9 orders. I think people typically assume this just means the Skybreakers did not renounce their oaths, but there could be more to it. Nale has stated that his sole goal has been to prevent another desolation and he will do anything no matter how evil to achieve his goal. So, could Nale alongside the High Spren and the Skybreakers have betrayed the other spren and Radiants and tricked them into the Recreance? It seems like something Shallan could discover in Shadesmar - a betrayal of Spren.

I think a lot of people are projecting things in a lot of different ways about Adolin, which I think is part of the intent of his character. He's intentionally written as a little bit of a blank slate. He's the equivalent in a teen drama of the jock who turns out to be actually kind of nice, but is still a jock and can often be a jerk without meaning to. And at the end of the day, some people just won't like him because of who he is even if he's not a bad person. My personal view is that Adolin does not have a significant character arc in the books. He hasn't had a significant change in personality or outlook. I think the biggest reason I feel like he doesn't have his own arc is because there is very little he's aspired to do for himself. His greatest goal in life was to become a renowned duelist and it is the only thing we've seen him actively pursue on screen. Everything else he's done is more out of duty, out of being born or placed into a position where he has to fulfill certain expectations. There's nothing wrong with that, but it sets him apart from characters like Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar. All three of the primary main characters have goals and aspirations that they actively work towards, while Adolin doesn't even have dueling anymore. It's not his character's major arc or purpose to revive Maya. In fact, (to my memory) he's never even said he wants to try doing it. I think people read a little too much into the situation there. Adolin is a good soldier who cares a lot about his weapon. He maintains it and treats it well. He personifies it a little bit, not that different from what many similar soldiers would do in that position who have a similar sword. We see in the books that Dalinar did the same with his sword Oathbringer with the same results (Oathbringer hates him less than other humans). Kaladin doesn't, because his weapon is the spear which is expected to break in battle. He doesn't have just one spear that stays with him throughout his life. I don't think Kaladin's opinion of the Adolin/Maya relationship is wrong. Maya is dead. All other Radiants have put aside dead shardblades to bond live spren. Adolin has more of an emotional connection to the Shardblade that's been his constant companion than to the deadeye spren Maya. Adolin is basically making the same choice Kaladin did in a certain respect - Kaladin wouldn't take up Heleran's shards because it felt wrong despite the power increase he would get. I could see Adolin doing the same thing and sticking with a deadeye blade for similar reasons. I do think we're being promised that something will happen with an attempt to revive Maya. I don't think it's clear what the results of that attempt will be. I do like the idea that it could be Dalinar who revives Maya - that maybe the loving attention of a dedicated shardbearer + a bondsmith's power is enough to revive a deadeyes. I could also see the Radiants making a very serious attempt and eventually learning definitively that Maya cannot be revived back into a spren.

If I were a ruler prior to the Everstorm, I would likely have had the same reaction that most leadership had. I would not have believed Jasnah's claims without evidence. Let's remember - at that time the people of the human nations of Roshar have no idea that Parshmen are (or have the capability to become) sentient. Jasnah herself did not know it. All factual evidence available to the humans of the time indicates that the Parshmen are intelligent animals, not intelligent beings on par with humans. This was not slavery or subjugation of intelligent beings, this was the keeping of livestock. The best equivalent to real life would be if it was common practice for humans to keep chimpanzees as animal workers. Some people might consider it unethical to keep intelligent animals that are similar to humans as livestock, but it would not be seen by anyone as slavery. Continue research, seek answers. If, by some miracle, you get solid information that indicates the Parshmen would transform into Voidbringers, then you push to keep them separate and away from population centers. Based on all known facts and the best Rosharan science the Parshmen would be classified as animals, but it's still unethical and distasteful to do a mass culling of animals. Particularly intelligent ones. Let them work on farms or in rural areas where they can't overwhelm human cities when/if they transform. Then, if they do change you have a chance to mount a defense and protect most people from them if they go bad.

Didn't end up seeing this until just now but Chapter 15 ended up not being strongly related to Shallan or Azure, so we can still speculate. I don't know if you did lay out what exactly it is you wanted in the post, but I guess I'll assume it's that Azure and Shallan meet again in Shadesmar and go on adventures? I think the concept at a high level is good. Mraize is tempting Shallan with forbidden knowledge and really contributing to her instability. Azure seems to be a force for good so far who would probably provide a good alternative viewpoint on the stuff Shallan learns from Mraize. I think it depends on how far things go down that plotline. If it's a major plot for RoW, with Shallan being conflicted between that drive for knowledge vs. hating the Ghostbloods, then I'd say there's a really high chance she will meet up with Azure again. I'm not so sure on the idea of Azure being tied to the 17th Shard. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems like she is more affiliated with the interests of whatever is going on back on Nalthis. I'd guess someone from there clued her in about Nightblood and she was given a mission to get him "out of circulation" so to speak. I'd guess Vasher/Zahel is considered a criminal on Nalthis, for crimes he committed there. Maybe even just for the act of leaving and abandoning Nalthis when they may have needed him. Azure has what seems to be basically Nightblood 2.0, so she either must have learned a lot herself or was taught by people who know about what Vasher and his wife did in creating Nightblood. That implies to me that her reasons for being "against" Vasher/Zahel are based on some history between the two of them on Nalthis. Anyway, yeah I think this is a good call. It could be interesting to see the two of them interact and possibly get to know each other a little better.

Very true - Adolin has definitely not faced challenges or shown flaws on the same level as Kaladin, Shallan, or Dalinar. Or the other main front five characters of Szeth and Venli. But when it comes to being a Radiant I also think of Teft, or Lopen, or several others. They don't have to go through the same kind of deep tragedies that Kaladin and Shallan do, but are still able to become Radiants.

I think in terms of Adolin he does have a few flaws. His character is treated different from the others since he's more of a "secondary" character who doesn't get his own dedicated flashback book, but I think he still does have some key character flaws. 1) Set in his ways/Traditionalist: He is shown continually throughout the series to value the status quo and traditional Alethi values, which gets him into trouble numerous times. Early on in WoK and WoR, he wants to stick to the hotheaded and overly confrontational Alethi values. Whenever a problem comes up, he thinks that fighting is the best solution. Dalinar has to hold him back from provoking duels with Sadeas that would have destroyed the Alethi political alliance. 2) Flakey/Shallow: Up until his relationship with Shallan deepens in OB, he's generally shown as a guy who is pretty flakey. All his friends other than his own family know they can't really depend on him. He goes through girlfriends faster than one a week. He's well liked by people who don't know him very well because he's friendly and likable, but he's not the kind of guy who you call on when the chips are down. He kind of overcomes this a bit through WoR and OB as he develops more sincere relationships with both Shallan and Kaladin. But he's still the guy even in early RoW that wants to be seen as everybody's friend, even if those friendships are mostly for show. 3) Morally Questionable: Killing Sadeas, is a topic that is a hot debate on these boards, but in world would be considered murder. He chose to break the law and his family's moral codes to protect his family. He himself is shown to question that decision in the early RoW chapters we've seen. His choice to kill Sadeas also seems to be a bad moral influence on Shallan as she seeks to find her identity. I think at her core, she feels it's wrong to assassinate someone the way Sadeas was killed, but because it's something her husband did she also has parts of her that feel she has to justify it. The darker parts of her think it's OK to murder people in an ends justify the means type of logic and those darker parts are reinforced because of what Adolin did. As a secondary character, we don't get to learn as much about his internal strife as the others. I think his character's narrative purpose is to give us an outside perspective of Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar so he doesn't get a lot of time to focus on himself during his POVs. But I think his flaws are still there.

I thought this chapter's cosmere bleedthrough was handled much better than Ch. 13 - Kaladin's response is pretty much "Uh... what are you talking about here Zahel?" when Zahel started dropping references to stuff Kaladin has no knowledge or context for. It's good for the characters to acknowledge that the information being dropped is out of place. Especially stuff like "Type 2 Entities" or whatever. Zahel explains a few things that are relevant to Kaladin and the overall story of Roshar, while keeping the rest a thinly veiled secret like his Awakening abilities. It seems like from this that at least the Zahel/Azure/Nightblood storyline will remain primarily about the here and now and what is going on in Roshar. I also liked the Kaladin/Rlain interaction. This really should be the model for conversations like it in the real world. Kaladin has his ideas and tries to do what he thinks is right. Rlain says "Hey, I appreciate the thought, but you know what you are doing is not actually a benefit for me." And then Kaladin thinks about it and will consider how to do things a little differently the next time. There's no dug in dogmatic rhetoric being thrown out by either side. Just two friends honestly expressing their opinions and trying to do what is right, even if they start off with different ideas of what that is. I think I must just be a grumpy person haha. Reading the community's super hyped thoughts about cosmere crossovers annoys me, but reading the chapter itself was good. I'm glad people get what they want who love this stuff, but I'll leave it to you all to speculate.

Adolin just doesn't strike me as a Stoneward, especially from what we know of Taln who I think is meant to be the complete encapsulation of an ideal Stoneward. Taln is resolute, stubborn to a fault, and stands up for what he thinks is right even when the costs to himself are extreme. Adolin (especially early on) is not like that. He's portrayed as the guy who is friendly and liked by everyone, but unable to make real and deep connections with anyone. He is introduced as kind of a flake - one of the first things we learn about him is that he's unfaithful to the current woman he is trying to court. He definitely grows as a person throughout the series and he does have his moments of being more Stonewardlike such as the time he imprisons himself in solidarity with Kaladin. But I think the intent of the Knights Radiant is that generally your order reflects something deeply inherent in who you are as a person. For example, Kaladin always wanted to protect people throughout his life. It wasn't a learned behavior in the year leading up to him becoming a Windrunner. All that said, the Stoneward description from the official personality test thing does match Adolin surprisingly well. At least, it matches the Adolin we're seeing in early RoW. Adolin is not really like Taln, but maybe not every Stoneward has to be.

Hard to say at this point. The Syl interlude is probably in the first set based on what we know about the story so far and what is going on during that interlude. So the Fused attack could be early Part 2. Or, I could be totally wrong. I definitely think there's a chance of that. Leshwi's just the older, wiser, but more beaten down version of Venli. I think their ultimate goal is the same - achieve an honorable freedom for the singers. Leshwi's probably seen people get killed for having ideas like Venli's over the years.

Awesome chapter. Learned a bit about how the desolations actually end - which makes a lot of sense. I think we're seeing more and more hints that Leshwi genuinely does like Kaladin. I don't think she has a secret plan to kill him. She says she just wants to enslave him, basically, but I think even that is not exactly what she wants. My prediction based on this chapter: Venli/Leshwi will capture our man Mr. Stormblessed in an early book assault on Urithiru. The Fused will win and capture Urithiru, and the rest of the book will be spent in the battle/plans to retake it.

I feel like you are infusing your own perspective onto things. If it's obvious to you, you seem to feel it must be obvious to the characters. I disagree. I'm starting from the assumption (which may be my own bias creeping in) that the Rosharans will assume by default that people are -not- from other worlds. This makes sense based on my memory of what has occurred in the books. For example, Kaladin knows that Azure is strange, but he assume she's from a far away place with strange magic - not another planet. She puts everything she does in Rosharan terms - calls her weapon a shardblade, even though it isn't. She even says she's from another land, not another world or another planet. I can't think of a single native Rosharan character who ever considered the idea that there could be other worlds that are inhabited by people, prior to being told in OB that humans came to Roshar from Ashyn. Even that is most likely understood in a religious context - the Vorin religion teaches that humans were expelled from the Tranquilline Halls so most of the characters would view it as more of a transfer from one spiritual plane of existence to another. I can't think of a single instance of any native Rosharan POV character speculating that another character is likely to be from another world or considering the possibility that people from other worlds may be among them. I'll probably start a reread in October so maybe I'll pick up on a few things I missed in the past, but as of now I don't remember any instances native Rosharans thinking about other words. But at the end of the day, it's just personal taste. I don't like the way this (may) be going down in RoW. It's (imo) one of the few flaws in Sanderson's writing. He builds up the big concepts and secrets like worldhoppers external to the actual main books through things like epigraphs, easter eggs, and fan interactions until they are old news to fans. Then when it's time for the characters to actually learn about those things in world he doesn't make it a big deal. Massive ideas and concepts are just accepted by the characters with a shrug and then everyone moves on. He even did this in the WoT books he wrote. For some people (and I think probably Sanderson himself) the fact that the characters now know this information and can use it for cool battles and schemes is the payoff. I think a lot of the reason Sanderson does this is to keep the plot moving along, rather than spending time on reactions of characters learning things. There's nothing wrong with liking things that way. It's just not what I personally prefer. It will probably bug me for a while, but I'll get over it.

I don't think that the hints that have appeared so far in released, published material detract from the SA story arc. However, I believe that Ch. 13 is moving the story in a direction that would detract. The Shallan/Mraize scene seems to be setting up Shallan having significant involvement in RoW or SA5 with cross-cosmere trading. If it turns out this was just a hint from Mraize and he will clam up and shut Shallan out from here, then I'm fine with it. It doesn't seem like that's the way it's going. But, maybe that's a result of reading one chapter at a time and overanalyzing. Your general description of what you'd like to see is generally what I would like to see. Hints throughout the cosmere novels, until at some point it's revealed as part of the main plot of one of the series. I could see this happening in Mistborn Era 3. Then open the next series with the wider cosmere no longer being a mystery.

I agree with you about what Sanderson has said in the past. That said, in this scene Mraize tells Shallan that people can travel to other worlds and strongly implies that he wants her to help him do it. Mraize is telling Shallan that he wants her to participate in a cross-cosmere Investure smuggling operation. This technically doesn't violate Sanderson's statement that you wouldn't need to have read Warbreaker or Mistborn to understand the plot of RoW, because the Ghostblood Investure smuggling is not related to the plots of Mistborn or other cosmere books. I think the line is different for every fan. For me, this conversation with Mraize crosses the line of my own preferences. Doesn't mean I won't read the book (or that I may be entirely wrong about what was going on in this conversation), but I just don't like the direction things seem to be going.

Basically everything you've written is from the perspective of a fan/reader who is really into digging out cosmere secrets. And from that perspective, you're right. If you're a hardcore fan who's into this stuff, none of this is particularly new or massive. If you're a fan who really wants to see the characters discover this stuff for themselves, it's disappointing when it just pops up without in world introduction. You're writing about what is new information for us as readers and fans - I'm writing about what is new information for in world characters. We've had hints the Ghostbloods are cosmere aware for two books. However, no other characters (aside from special ones like Hoid or the Shards, etc) are aware of that. Only readers. So, when Mraize started talking about stuff like travelling to other worlds, this should have been a MASSIVE revelation to Shallan. She should have reacted strongly to it, or recalled how she had strongly reacted when first learning of it. Maybe she would play along outwardly to keep a strong face in front of Mraize, but internally being confused or questioning. Instead, it was played out with her just being like "oh yeah, i knew about all this stuff in principle, but i want to know the secrets of how it actually works." None of the main Rosharan characters know that anyone else is from another world. Not Zahel/Vasher and not Azure/Vivenna. Not even Wit/Hoid. I don't think you could say that the Warbreaker characters are making no effort to hide themselves. They are making effort to hide their true nature from the Rosharan characters. Sanderson is not making a particular effort to hide their origins from us, the readers. That is a key difference. The ideas dropped are indeed massive, relative to the knowledge of the Knights Radiant. The Knights Radiant only know that humans did not originate on Roshar as of the end of OB. They would believe at that time that it took Shard level power to travel between worlds, since they know Odium helped them come to Roshar. The Allomancy/Fabrial connection is completely unknown to the characters. Navani's artifabrians have no knowledge of Allomancy. It has not been built up at all that in world characters (again aside from special ones) would have this kind of knowledge. It's sort of new for readers, but honestly a pretty obvious connection. Sanderson has obviously created some "laws of magical physics" or whatever you want to call them for the Cosmere. It makes complete sense that the different magic systems work based on similar concepts. So it's cool to see it written in the epigraphs that metal works in a similar way in fabrials as it does in Allomancy/Hemalurgy, but this is a conclusion only a fan could draw, not an in world character. You're just a different type of fan from me. For you, it seems to be exciting to figure out mysteries and connections between the various books. For me, that's interesting, but a distant second place to seeing the characters themselves gradually learning new information and solving mysteries.

Well, much as Chapter 12 went in a direction I really liked, Chapter 13 went in a direction I really disliked. *shrug* I guess it makes sense, reading Shallan POVs just makes me feel very uneasy since about midway through Oathbringer. For me, it's a matter of keeping it in context though - have to remember that the book is clearly setting up that the characters who know and love Shallan understand she's in a deeply unhealthy place right now, even if she isn't willing to fully admit it to herself. So right now, we are seeing her continued downward spiral, even if she isn't willing to admit it to herself and therefore her chapters read like everything is mostly OK and the danger is no greater than it's been before. From the outside, we as readers and even other characters understand it's bad and still getting worse. Though this is probably an unpopular opinion, I really disliked the fact that the conversation between Shallan and Mraize casually dropped massive cosmere ideas and concepts and seems to indicate that RoW will introduce an integrated cosmere fully into a mainstream novel for the first time with very minimal buildup for such a major concept. I've gone on about this in other threads so I won't repeat myself here. Just disappointed in what seems to be the direction the story is taking based on the Shallan/Mraize scene.

Just to confirm from a third party, there is no reference on his linked site to Critical Reviews in Toxicology. It seems the publisher Taylor & Francis publishes multiple journals including both the one referenced by Rainier and the one reference by you. A small number apparently have had controversial content, but there don't seem to be any claims of bad science made against the referenced Journal of Trauma & Dissociation. *edit* Not to be the thread police here or anything (and this isn't really directed in particular at you Karger), but can we avoid another nasty argument about Shallan's condition? People have really strong feelings about this stuff, which I get. But, I don't think it's worthwhile for us to have another debate about whether having a mental disorder is a strength or weakness. Or if people do want to keep discussing it, take it to one of the several threads dedicated to the issue so the rest of us can take a break from it. For my part, Chapter 12 went a long way toward making me feel better about reading a Shallan with split personalities. Getting the opportunity to see Adolin's honest opinion about Shallan, and even Shallan's own opinion (through the Radiant personality) helped to provide context for how the book and characters will approach the issue. I still don't particularly like it and don't really agree with the majority opinion here about Shallan's condition. But it's not worth the time or the stress to argue about it. I think Chapter 12 convinced me that Sanderson will write it in a way that will be satisfying to me, even if it's not what I wanted to start out with.

Ah - this makes a ton of sense, thanks! Could be that the Shallan persona is still in denial, but Radiant may have had a similar talk to Adolin on the DL. I could definitely see something like that being the case. I generally use Shallan (without quotes) to refer to the whole person, and "Shallan" to refer to the persona, but that definitely is not like a universal fandom naming convention so that's what tripped me up.

She doesn't tell him about Formless specifically. But she shares her fears that other half-formed personalities are lurking under the surface and waiting to pounce in a moment of weakness, which seems to be something she is hiding from Adolin. At least, that's how I read it in Chapter 9. I do think it's hopeful - that some portions of herself are ready and able to start dealing with this. I think you're right that she's got to get all of "herself" in agreement to take the next step toward being healthy. I honestly think part of that is to finally face up to her last Truth, which she is desperately trying to forget or isolate from her day to day awareness.

First of all, loved the chapter. I'd been waiting for a chapter to see how Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin all interacted together. I wasn't sure how it would be. It seemed like there was a chance of some tension between Adolin and Kaladin, but reading this chapter, I'm glad there wasn't. This is a pure Sanderson way of handling the potential conflict and he made it feel right. This chapter definitely raised my opinion of Adolin quite a bit. Sanderson did a great job of showing that Adolin does understand what's going on and is very concerned about it, but is still trying to put on a good face for Shallan's sake. I find it really interesting too that Shallan would not tell Adolin about Formless, but does immediately tell Kaladin about it. It's interesting to me that she chooses certain things to tell Adolin and no one else, while other things she keeps from him. It was also really interesting to see Radiant take some initiative. My opinion - Radiant is the part of Shallan that knows sometimes she needs someone to tell it like it is. If she comes to Adolin with this type of problem, he's the type to be super supportive and nice, but not offer advice or opinion. But Kaladin is the type to say, "Oh, that is hurting you? Well don't do that!" That kind of thing can be helpful for people sometimes - to have someone external to you validate your belief that something is off. Just the ability to openly talk with someone and say "Something is wrong!" can be really helpful. With Adolin, I think they both feel pressure to say to each other that things are OK, because they both desperately want them to be. Only problem is, Kaladin's still too jealous of her ability to put her pain aside temporarily to understand what's really wrong. So he won't say what she needs him to say. I think this may be a set up for future plot. I'm not sure it will necessarily be Adolin's death, or that it would be a Kaladin/Shallan romance. I think with all these hints of how Kaladin still envies what Shallan does despite Adolin and Shallan/Radiant herself telling Kaladin that it is really bad for her, it is setting up a moment where Kaladin finally realizes that what Shallan does is not healthy and is making her worse. I think he will realize that at that moment in time, as bad as things are for Kaladin himself, Shallan is in a much worse situation. He will snap out of his depression and they will have a frank conversation and provide kind of a pressure relief valve for each other. Kaladin directly saying to her "You've got a messed up situation. It's messed up, but you are strong enough to fix it." Shallan directly saying "Hey you idiot, take it from me that dodging your problems doesn't work. It made me develop a mental disorder. Just forgive yourself already!" I think this happens as part of a friendship, where they finally realize that it's ok to be emotionally close to each other as platonic friends. For whatever reason, Shallan and Kaladin seem to be able to open up to each other in ways they can't open up to other people and I think acknowledging that and allowing themselves to do it will be good for them. I'm not saying that in a shipping way, just that I think the books are showing us that Shallan and Kaladin have a certain special connection that is distinct from the romantic connection that Shallan and Adolin have.

I like the idea of Jasnah/Taravangian as Group 3. Forced to work together as monarchs of Rosharan nations in the coalition, Jasnah trying her best to figure out what Taravangian is really up to. But it's also still hard to say. Taravangian's had at least a decent number of POVs in the last few books but never made "the list" before. So I'm somewhat skeptical he would count as one of the 10 characters in Sanderson's outline. I'd be more inclined to say that Group 3 is Jasnah/Dalinar with a dose of Taravangian mixed in as an "unlisted" character but still the same plotline as you are suggesting. Who knows though, I don't think that Navani's made the list before either and we know for sure she's on it this time and plays a fairly prominent role. Another possibility that could be interesting is Dalinar as the POV "throughline" character, removing him from the list as he wouldn't be part of one of the Groups. This would make sense since we know Dalinar takes a bit of a step back this book. We see him back in Urithiru, watching the flock and get his emotions as he struggles with becoming the leader of the Knights Radiant and all that entails. We already have a hint of this in the Syl Interlude. This would free up a Jasnah/Taravangian Group 3.