agrabes

I think Dalinar's point to Kaladin that he should consider being an ambassador is interesting. We know of one confirmed ambassador mission and one suspected one that will happen in this book: 1) Confirmed Ambassador mission to the Honor Spren in Shadesmar. Could Kaladin join Shallan and Adolin on that mission? The Amazon blurb mentions an "envoy", so it's possible Kaladin will go on this mission. Then again - do you really want to send a depressed, recently stripped of command, Windrunner to see the honor spren? 2) Become an ambassador to the independent parsh faction of the former "listeners" and disaffected "singers." This isn't confirmed but just seems highly likely to be something that will happen in this book. Mentioning Rlain in this chapter also makes it seem likely. I think with Kaladin sort of being the "main" hero of the books and the book likely dealing heavily with the parsh, he's probably going to be working on a mission with/to them. Maybe this is where and how Kaladin learns there's more to life than fighting as a soldier. As much of a dedicated person as he is, it may take him first learning a new skill/trade that he feels is equally important to the war effort to understand that he can do other things than just being a soldier and still have value, still protect people. This may be his way to the 4th/5th oath. Or, it may be his way to accepting life as a 3rd Oath Windrunner.

I think of them as a Venn diagram - they share some things all together like basic functions and some general values like a desire to oppose Odium, some things are shared with one and not the other like how Radiant and Veil can wield a shardblade, but not Shallan, and other things are unique to only one such as Shallan's sense of humor, Radiant's sense of honor and propriety, or Veil's sneakiness. I'm not so concerned with what's medically or scientifically proper. I'm concerned with what makes sense in terms of the story and what would feel right (or wrong) based on what we know so far. If it turned out the Shallan we knew through 3 books was completely fake and is gone never to return again, that feels bad. Not bad as in "I feel sorry for this character because she had such bad luck" but bad as in "I don't want to read from the POV of some other person inhabiting Shallan's body." It's a good story arc if Shallan gets out of control for a while but brings it back by the end. I could live with her still having split personalities if she's able to return to having the Shallan we know clearly in charge and self-assured. It's even good if she just dies or turns evil. It's lame if the final reveal is "Ha ha ha, Shallan was never really Shallan you dummies!" But that said, I think I'm going to leave it at that for this discussion. I do think/hope we'll get some more resolution to Shallan in RoW.

She had access to all those things pre-split as well. Maybe she has slightly easier access now, but it's not new access. She can't create skill she doesn't have, because the source of all this is herself. I don't think you can describe having a mental illness as a strength. It's a fair point that she could create a new alter or re-arrange existing ones to be able to handle a new challenge. But if these personalities are split up, each one covering a portion of the "complete" personality, then by definition they can never have all the aspects of who she is at one time. If she did have access to all aspects of herself at once, then by definition she would be fully integrated. Anyway, this is all just a thought about how Shallan's condition and (hopeful) future improvement in ability to manage that condition will tie to the story and character development. I think that a problem will arise in the story that can't be solved until she achieves at least partial integration. Creating an additional alter might be a realistic real world response, but it would be pretty unsatisfying to read and whether or not this is true from a medical/scientific perspective it would feel to most readers to be a regression.

If you're using the mechanic metaphor, it's more like she's a one handed mechanic. Or a mechanic who has a mental block against using both hands in conjunction. She's got two wrenches and needs to use both to loosen a bolt. But she's only using one wrench at a time. No matter how fast you switch your hand from the wrench on the bolt head to the wrench on the nut, you can't loosen it. There are times she needs character traits or skills of multiple personalities at the same time, which she can't do right now. She can access all three as needed, but not simultaneously. Not saying she necessarily will or must re-integrate herself. But being split at least along the current lines of division is a weakness.

Thanks for posting that. It does seem like Group 2 is almost certainly Shallan/Adolin, much as I fought against the idea. Group 3 is very likely Dalinar/Szeth but not confirmed. In theory, I suppose it could be Dalinar/Venli with Szeth as a hanger-on with no POVs. Probably not likely though. Dalinar is confirmed to be not Group 1 or 2. Group 1 I think Kaladin and Navani are now confirmed. Lirin could be one of the spots, but might not be. Venli is most likely Group 1. So 1-2 spots are still open and will probably be taken up by a more minor character. As to your other comment - I'll just say I don't think anything like that is happening here at all. There's no indication that Kaladin or Moash will be leading singers or fused. There might be some fan speculation about it, but it's not in the books themselves.

Interesting, thanks. Those WOBs provide good context. I think there's not a complete definitive answer there, which is kind of Sanderson's trademark - he wants us as fans to have room to debate and discuss what might be actually going on. For my sake, I think his intent was always to have Shallan have an identity crisis that resulted in her having multiple personalities at least for some period of time. I think he was setting it up that her self hatred issues combined with her ability to literally become another person were going to come to a head in OB, marking the start of her struggle with multiple personalities. After OB, he decided the best approach was to try to model it after a real life illness and try to portray it as realistically as possible. But like you said, we'll see. I think we will get some answers about Shallan's past in RoW.

I have to admit, that's pretty impressive for typing on a phone. I don't think I have the patience to type that much on a touch screen. As to the idea of this being a possible alter creation, I don't buy it. Or at least, I don't buy that this is definitely a scene showing us the creation of an alter. I mean, as I understand it from WoBs you have posted, Sanderson was not intentionally writing her as DID during WoR. So this couldn't have been written as a scene of her creating an alter. I don't think it's very similar to the scene where she creates Veil, the scenes where Veil sort of becomes a true alternate personality, the scene where she creates Radiant, or the scene where she is contemplating creating more alters. In all those cases, either Shallan intentionally knew she was creating another personality for herself or it was shown clearly on screen that a personality was forming that was separate from the main "Shallan" personality. I think there's enough similarity there that it could be reasonably retconned into being a scene of a creation of an alter, but I don't think it was originally written as one. Meta reasons aside, what I think is happening in this scene is just what is shown. Helaran is trying to help his sister so he gives her advice for things to do that will help herself and her family. She uses his instructions not to generate an alternate personality, but as a guidepost to cling to on her way back toward a more normal life. When in doubt, she tries to follow his instructions. I think this scene is showing us how mentally tough Shallan really is - she goes from a completely traumatized and depressed state where she is completely non-functional and gets herself back into a still damaged, but highly functional state with her only outside help being a few words of advice from her brother. I wouldn't be totally shocked if you are right about this theory in the end, but I'm not on board with it at least for now.

I think it comes down to how people view personality and sense of self. People have a wide range of opinions on what it means to be "fake" or "real" when it comes to your personality and how you act. For me, I consider things like acting different in front of an important business guest compared to how you act with friends compared to how you act with family as all being true to yourself. I consider occasionally letting go of your problems to have fun even if you're experiencing serious trauma as being yourself and healthy so long as you aren't losing touch with reality. I consider the idea that you can have a "true" self which you don't actually ever show to anyone a problem. But other people consider my outlook as being fake and keep a distinct internal sense of self even if they never outwardly show it. It probably has a lot to do with a person's own self image. I consider the happy, put together self the true self, and the sad, struggling self as a hurt or damaged part which isn't who you really are, even if you do struggle sometimes. Necessary to acknowledge and work through the problems to get better (or you'll end up like Shallan), but not the truest representation of who I am. Others feel the opposite - the only way to truly be yourself is to openly display the depths of your pain. I don't know that there's necessarily an objective right answer. For me personally, I wouldn't call Shallan "fine" in WoK or WoR, but I would call her "complete" in the sense that she had not yet begun to manifest multiple personalities. Yes, she did have repressed memories and had experienced serious trauma. She had led a tough life, but was able to manage it by the skin of her teeth. That was what made her such a great and interesting character. And the fact that despite all the extreme misery she had experienced in her life, that she was able to find true joy and wonder in spite of it all was an amazing thing. What Kaladin failed to understand was not the depths of her trauma, but that her coping mechanism was unhealthy. He fully understood the depths of her trauma, that was directly stated in WoR. He just thought it was so amazing that she could let go of her pain that he never thought about how she did it, he never considered that she was becoming increasingly aware that the way she dealt with her pain was making her worse. Prior to about midway through OB, I considered Shallan a traumatized young woman with serious repressed memories and issues dealing with life's challenges, but I don't feel there were hints that she had DID up until Oathbringer. I didn't pick up on it until probably early-mid-OB but I think it was there all throughout the book if you go back and reread. I don't think that Sanderson even chose to start writing her as DID until OB. So really, anything prior to that would only be retconned as DID.

To be fair though, what we saw was that Shallan believes the "Shallan" persona is the fakest. She says this during a time when she's in a bad state of mind and full of self doubt. It's not nothing, for sure. But it's not a 100% confirmation either. I'd put it at a 30% chance of being correct that the "Shallan" persona is completely fake or mostly fake, but that's just mostly based on my own intuition. The biggest point of evidence against "Shallan" actually being fakest is that Radiant is really not a full human personality. It's hard to imagine someone who was "just" Radiant, the personality is so paper thin it really seems to only represent the concept of being honorable and noble. If there is a "fakest" it logically has to be Radiant. Veil could still in theory be "most real" but not Radiant. The Shallan we know is a person with a ton of self doubt, this has been consistent in her character throughout the whole series. She's the kind of person who thinks of herself as fake or less than, even though there's no truth to it. But, no sense rehashing that. I think this coming up in Ch. 9 does make it feel like we may get an answer to the question in RoW though. Regarding the "Formless" personality - The book is clearly implying that her inability to face her fears and tell the truth to Adolin is spawning another personality. Basically, one that can do the dirty work and keep her from having to acknowledge she's doing these things. But I think it's also showing a weakness of her current state and just her overall characteristics. Shallan hates to face up to big challenges. She can do it, but she will try absolutely everything she can to avoid it. You saw in early OB that she was actually willing and able to face her fears when she took on Sja-Anat. I think part of the reason she's lost that ability is that the components have been split out too much. Shallan has the cleverness and creativity, Veil has the guts and attitude to stand up to people, and Radiant has the nobility and resoluteness to stand firm and do things for honorable reasons. But none have all three. So Shallan might be able to think up a solution, but she's too timid to carry it out. Veil isn't timid, but is too self interested to do things for the greater good. Radiant is proud and noble, but lacks cleverness and spunk to be good in a fight or in a tough conversation. These personalities can solve certain aspects of challenges, but never one big one. And that leads to her inability to face her fears and tell Adolin what's going on.

It could be a combination of depression and PTSD. If this was real life, I'd say that's probably the case. And not to steal the thunder of the Stormlight Addiction thread, but I think this chapter pretty much confirmed that Kaladin is addicted to Stormlight. So, it could easily be that. But it's more fun to think it could be a serious outside force. I don't think it's a stretch at all that there could be a group within the Radiants who have differing opinions about the right way to fight the war, what should be acceptable tactics, etc. It's happened in real life too - for example the German debates about whether or not to use Gas in WW1.

Amazing chapter. A few thoughts: Kaladin is definitely being hit by either an Unmade or Odium. Something is keeping him down unnaturally, it seems like his normal coping mechanisms just aren't working at all. Or maybe this is just what it's like before you hit the 4th Oath for a Windrunner. Shallan's chapter was very interesting, but we can keep that over in the Shallan character threads. Mysterious communications to Navani: My theory is that it's a Willshaper. The theme of their order is to seek freedom. They seem to have enough knowledge to say the Honorspren are compromised, which to me suggests they are a member of "Team Radiant." I could easily see some Willshapers and their associated spren being strongly opposed to keeping lesser spren captive. Just like some people today object to animals being used as beasts of burden or for livestock to be eaten for meat.

I think Gaz does need to atone for his prior actions. But that should happen off screen. We hear in a line or two about how he is sorry for what he did. Maybe we get a short scene where he runs into Kaladin again and apologizes. Maybe we find out he's quietly been helping refugees or something. Just keep it in the background.

The Lies: 1) “They’re going to die, you know,” Moash said softly. “Shut up.” “Everyone you love, everyone you think you can protect. They’re all going to die anyway. There’s nothing you can do about it.” 2) “Do you remember the chasm, Kal?” Moash whispered. “In the rain that night? Standing there, looking down into the darkness, and knowing it was your sole release? You knew it then. You try to pretend you’ve forgotten. But you know. As sure as the storms will come. As sure as every lighteyes will lie. There is only one answer. One path. One result.” 3) “There’s a simple path to freedom,” Moash said [...] “The answer is to stop existing, Kal. You’ve always known it, haven’t you?” 4) “There is no fight to be won. We lost the moment we were born into this cursed life of suffering. The sole victory left to us is to choose to end it.” These are lies. Kaladin can protect people. He can do something about the danger they are in. Kaladin did not "forget" that suicide was his only option. He learned better. He knew that there were better options. It's a lie to say that the only path to freedom or release from pain is death. There are many paths to freedom. It's a lie to say there is no fight to be won against the forces of evil. This is a Desolation, it's been fought and won for the side of good many times before. The theme of Moash's entire speech is that life is terrible. That it's a curse to be born. That nothing good can ever come from life because others will always keep you down and destroy anything good that you have. That you can't even be good yourself, because others will do things to you that make you turn bad. Moash believes that he had no possible way of being a good person. No possible way of overcoming the suffering he's faced in his life. He is trying to convince Kaladin to believe the same thing. The Truth: Renarin's truth is to show both Kaladin and Moash that Moash is wrong. He shows that there was a way for Moash to be a good person. There was a way for him to overcome his suffering. It was not a curse to be born. Good can come from life. We know that Moash has freely chosen the wrong path multiple times which made life worse for himself, we've seen it on the page. Moash himself knew that, before giving away his feelings to Odium - he reflects on it in early/mid OB and even late in WoR. And the reason he feels pain from Renarin's vision is because the vision strips away the lies Moash has told himself, it forces Moash to confront the fact that much of his suffering is his own fault and that he still has the ability to change his ways and put in the work to become better. Kaladin himself has made a lot of progress in fighting his own tendency toward negative thinking. When he's doing well, he understands that all the things Moash told him were BS. But when he's struggling, those kinds of thoughts try to pull him back into the dark. Renarin's image was not "counterfactual" - it wasn't just some guy saying "Hey Moash, here's what you would have looked like if you'd become a Windrunner." It was a magical vision of what might have been and what might still be. Renarin used magic to prove Moash wrong and show that his entire premise for everything he says (that he had no way of being any different than he is) was false.

Yeah, really interesting idea. Totally would make sense if it's true. That said, I'm not sure I actually want it to happen. Somehow it makes the story seem sad if the Radiants can become addicted to Stormlight and get messed up like that.

Yeah - fair. I wasn't intending to make it seem sinister, but maybe less.. noble? If that makes sense. That what Shallan does with her drawings generally isn't a moral action either good or bad and she doesn't mean it to be. While what Renarin did here was intended to be a moral action.

Yeah, could be. But I guess my argument there is that Renarin's motivations are different. You see what Shallan does in tWoK and WoR - she makes drawings to inspire people to become better. But she does it for the most part because she is trying to get them to act in a certain way. Shallan shows these visions because doing it advances her own goals. She also thinks it's helping them become better, but that's not really her primary motivation. She's also being subtle and sneaky about it. She's not trying to show them they've been lying to themselves, she's just saying they could be different. Compare with Renarin - he shows Moash the image which is challenging lies with truth. Moash goes on and on about how no one can escape the pain and mundane difficulties of life and that no matter what happens life will always beat you down. Renarin fights that by showing an image of the truth - what could have been, revealing that all of what Moash has just said is a lie. He's just up front about it and direct. Who knows though. It's a cool idea, but I'm sure we'll learn more when the rest of the book is out. I think Sanderson does like this kind of idea of mental conflict - showing people your vision of the world and the future and forcing them to challenge it. Remember the end of the Wheel of Time and the final "battle of ideas" between Rand and the Dark One. Granted, that section was probably written or heavily outlined by Robert Jordan. But still, something he's been a part of.

I'd say the ending will be on par with the end of Mistborn: Well of Ascension. To be nice, I'll put it in spoilers, though I've always thought the idea of spoilering something from a 13 year old book to be a little odd. I think at the end of RoW, we'll have an ending where things are pretty bad, but there's still hope.

Personally, I think it's fine if Gaz stays mostly in the background. I think it's better that way. There just isn't enough room in the book to give Gaz a significant story arc of his own. I feel like Teft was given too much screen time in OB. I would have rather that was handled more like Gaz - a few lines sprinkled in that let us know things have been going on in the background that have led to growth. I like Teft as a character, just don't want his personal arc taking screen time. The only Bridge 4 members (other than Kaladin of course) I'd be interested in hearing about on their own are Rock and Rlain because they seem to have real interesting stuff to do that doesn't involve the main cast and plot. Plus, as a Lightweaver squire, Gaz is by nature going to keep himself hidden and out of view of the bridgemen. I think at some point there will be a scene where this becomes a minor point of tension between Kaladin and Shallan (how could you work with the guy who harassed me and sent me to certain death!), they will work it out and then the issue will be dropped. Gaz will stay a background character in Shallan's orbit.

My thoughts on Renarin - I think this may be more of a normal Truthwatcher kind of thing. We know that different orders have different "flavors" of abilities. Like the difference between Bondsmith and Stoneward tension. I think this may be the Truthwatcher's version of Illumination. It would fit with the order too. Lightweavers use Illumination to create illusions and distractions. Truthwatchers use Illumination to show the truth. In this scene, Moash is creating a lie and trying to convince Kaladin of something that isn't true with all his nihilistic BS. Renarin, as a Truthwatcher, is able to dispel the illusion, show Kaladin that it isn't the truth. He uses Illumination to show Moash the truth - that he could have been a good man and a hero if he had made better choices. That it was not inevitable that everyone ends up in endless pain and Moash could have chosen a different path. It hurts Moash, because he knows it's true that most of his pain and struggles are self inflicted and that's why we see him ask Odium to take the pain.

Moash was definitely trying to convince Kaladin to kill himself. First, he references the time in WoK when Kaladin nearly did decide to kill himself. He says that Kaladin had the right idea at that time. He then says that the only way for Kaladin to stop hurting is for him to stop existing. He then tries to force Kaladin to say out loud that he agrees with Moash that the only way is to go back to the cliff and jump. Moash says that he found a better way for himself - surrendering to Odium. But he says the only way for Kaladin is suicide. Having been close to someone that was suicidal as I'm sure many of us have, this is exactly the way they think. It's dangerous to even talk like this, to reinforce those kinds of thoughts in their heads. These ideas are wrong. But they can't see it, they can't think about anything else or put their life in perspective because they are in a bad place. So if anyone struggling is reading this, my message to you is remember who is saying these things in the book - an evil villain. A person who lies, who doesn't have your best interest in mind. Who has lost the ability to see the good, not by damage but by choice. Remember that things aren't as bad as they seem, that it's not all bad and that even if things are bad now, things can and will be good again. Break the cycle of bad thoughts in your mind. Remember the good times, remember that you have choice in your life to remove the bad. And seek help from a loved one and/or a professional.

Loved this chapter. I think it reveals a little of Odium's strategies and why certain things were feared by the Radiants. I was always a defender of Moash, but trying to convince a friend to commit suicide is a bridge too far even for me. But seeing what Moash did - I imagine this was a common strategy for Odium's forces. I'm surprised we didn't think of this earlier, though I guess someone could probably pull out a half dozen threads where someone did over the years. All the Radiants are broken in one way or another. So of course Odium, being a Shard based on emotion, is going to know exactly how to try to exploit that. A few whispers in the ear of a Radiant might leave them emotionally devastated and not capable of fighting at their best. I think we'll see stuff like this happening more often. It's already happened with Dalinar and Kaladin. Third time confirms it's an active strategy.

I think you're right that the book has to end on some kind of a low or bittersweet note. Here are a few thoughts of what I think might happen: - Shallan or Adolin or possibly both go down a dark path. Shallan was on the edge of losing herself completely in OB, seems to have brought herself back in early RoW, but is still unstable. She's struggling with a moral dilemma of whether or not it's ok to just go out and kill people who might be enemies. Could easily tip toward the "dark" side permanently or temporarily. Adolin's already killed one person in cold blood. He might kill more, or he might have learned from what he did before. - I think Kaladin will have a downward arc that resolves mid to late RoW with him swearing the 4th Oath. Or, he swears the 4th Oath early and by the time the end of the book comes around he realizes it's still not enough sending him back down. - I think there's a bit of a warning/foreshadowing going on with Dalinar. Kaladin points out how dangerous it is for them to be sending their only bondsmith out into combat, but that they feel they must do it because his ability to refill Stormlight is too powerful. I think Dalinar is going to take a close call, sidelining him for most of RoW and/or possibly die. I think we're going to see serious difficulties on the weeks-long journey back to Urithiru on the flying barge. It makes me think of BSG Season 1. The way they are relying on Dalinar so much to me means there's a good chance he will have to be sidelined. - Research by Navani/Jasnah shows that either the Sibling is permanently wounded and can no longer power Urithiru or Urithiru's ancient mechanisms are irreparably damaged. Navani must try to get Urithiru up and running using their inferior technology, which can't succeed at the same level as what was there in the past. Humans lose so much ground that they can't hold on to farmland outside Urithiru anymore and they must try to jury-rig something that allows them to grow crops in Urithiru again. There is mass hunger and starvation as the new fabrials don't work as well and the soulcasters have their limits. I'm not married to any of these ideas, just some interesting things that I think might happen.

This is an example of foreshadowing or something like it, yes. But it's of the type Sanderson usually uses. A character makes an observation in world. Later on we learn that this is a sign one of the Unmade was probably present. It's something that was directly, explicitly written on screen. Szeth hears a heartbeat at a party. Later on, we hear that there is an Unmade called Heart of the Revel who causes parties and manifests as a beating heart. To make it equivalent to this possible wine scene foreshadowing example would be something like Szeth meeting a random person a day before the feast who says to him "Sir, you are so beautiful you make my heart beat fast! Come revel with me at the King's feast tomorrow!" without any other references to Ashertmarn at all and then taking that to mean it's a hint that an unmade was present. Yeah - I think you're just diving too deep here. I don't think the 1:1 allegory works, since one wine was offered to Veil and 3 were offered to Shallan. If it really were intended to be a complete 1:1 allegory, you would have to see at minimum Radiant being "in control" when one of the wines was out. It just feels like you're trying to find meaning where none exists. Especially your last paragraph. It's all total speculation extrapolated from one short paragraph. Everything you said might be true, but there is a much more obvious and more likely explanation than the one you provided for each line. Brandon Sanderson is a great author and does a lot of amazing things with his books, but he doesn't pack in 5 layers of detail behind every line. It just doesn't seem like Sanderson's style to use this kind of poetic symbolism. I think it's just way more likely that Ialai is using the wines to talk indirectly about the Ghostbloods. There are already two layers that are almost certainly there: the actual discussion of the wines themselves and the indirect references to the Ghostbloods. It seems a bit much to add additional layers of meaning to the scene. But who knows, maybe you'll be right in the end. That's the thing about foreshadowing, it's only obvious after the fact!

I think you are mostly correct about how I feel about this, with the exception that Sanderson does make remarks directly to readers, but only if they are not related to plot elements of the story. He only makes meta-commentary directly to the readers, not commentary about plot. I felt this was unrelated to the topic we were discussing so I didn't bring it up originally. You haven't provided any example of foreshadowing being used by Brandon Sanderson in a way similar to this wine scene. In this scene, the reader must draw the conclusion that Sanderson is referencing something about his characters that is totally unrelated to what has happened on the page. I just don't think he does things like that. I think you're diving too deep, looking for connections that don't exist. But just for the sake of discussion, let's talk about what it might mean if it were really an allusion to the nature of Shallan's personalities or foreshadowing for her future. I still don't think it lines up with what you are saying: Clear Wine: A clear and sweet wine. Made by carefully removing all rinds from the berries to "reveal what was truly inside." Veil drank this wine. But, the wine doesn't align with Veil's personality. Veil is not sweet. Veil is not "clear" - she is the thief in the night, she is the rogue. She hides herself, the opposite of being "clear" - the opposite of being open and truthful. The only way I could see this being associated with Veil is that Veil does not make any pretenses about who she is as a person, she doesn't "keep up appearances" the way Shallan does. I think you are ignoring everything else and just using this to support your earlier conclusion that Veil is the hidden, true personality like Ialai claims that clear is the wine's true color. For later, note that this wine is not defined to be noble or strong. If this wine truly is associated with Veil, then I think the intent of the discussion is to say that Veil's characteristics are a true part of who Shallan is, but not the most important or substantive part because this wine is not noble or strong, not what Ialai says people should seek out. Orange Wine: A bland orange wine in a finely labelled bottle, with a sour aftertaste. A favorite of people who want to look better than what they are. Looks good, but is actually bad. Will eventually be discarded for something that is truly noble and strong. Shallan drinks this wine. I could say this partially fits. Shallan is not bland, we've seen enough from her to know that she's far from a boring and bland person. But we do know that she is someone who likes to keep up appearances and paper over her faults. If this wine truly is a reference to the current Shallan personality, then I think it's saying that the part of her that wants to fit in and keep up appearances will be discarded. She won't go along to get along anymore and she will be more of a true agent of change and advocate for her self and her own interests. Blue Wine: Described as wonderful and perfect. Very rare. Ialai claims it's the last of its kind, while Shallan says that she is probably wrong about that - she's just given up the search for more. Ialai does not offer it to Shallan. This is most likely the "noble and strong" vintage that Ialai says people should try to go after. The reason she doesn't offer it to Shallan is because of the subtle discussion they're having - Ialai is implying that as a Ghostblood operative, Shallan is not worthy of something noble and strong. If we assume this is some kind of reference to Shallan's personalities, I think it's referencing that this noble and strong personality is what Shallan should strive for, but doesn't have currently. Ialai saying this is the last of the vintage and it can never come back represents the bad parts of Shallan who say she should give up and not try to get better. Shallan''s comment that Ialai should keep searching represents hope - that even if it seems impossible you should still strive for the goal of becoming who you want to be. If it is foreshadowing a change in Shallan's personalities, then I think it represents the main Shallan personality becoming stronger and less reliant on her alter-egos. Rather than "Shallan" disappearing and becoming "Veil", it represents "Shallan" growing as a person and getting stronger while still remaining herself. Horneater White: Described as Invisible and Deadly. Offered to Shallan, but she doesn't take it. I believe this wine represents the moral dilemma that Shallan is having throughout the scene with Ialai and the lead up to it. She is struggling with the idea of whether or not it's OK for her to be an assassin. A part of her feels like Dalinar is too moralistic and stuffy which stops him from getting important things done. But she also feels that Dalinar has a point about not killing people just because it's easier. She knows that her Lightweaver powers would make it really easy for her to just kill people to get them out of the way, but she's still kind of thinks it's wrong. Veil is totally in favor of going the assassin route, while Radiant is totally opposed. The "Shallan" personality seems split - sometimes in favor, other times opposed based on circumstances. I think the fact that Shallan rejected the wine (and the other events of the scene) represent that Shallan and all the personalities have decided that it's not right for them to be assassins. Conclusion: Shallan should not strive to be like Veil. Veil is not the true Shallan, but only one part of the true Shallan. The main "Shallan" personality is challenged to grow and become better, more noble. Shallan will ultimately decide that being an assassin is not right and will listen to Dalinar and obey the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. Sanderson's style is to have a huge master planned multi-part epic with great foreshadowing and hints woven throughout all his books that you could look at and later see he'd planned for certain events all along. Yes, he does put in occasional meta-commentary, or use overarching themes where his story is trying to get across a deeper message about life or a moral lesson. But he doesn't use symbolism like this - he doesn't have Character A say something in Character B's presence that is not about Character B and assume that we as readers to infer that there actually is a symbolic reference being made about Character B. Your spoilered example quote doesn't really land for me. It's nothing at all like this wine example. In your example, it's a character making a mostly joking off handed comment about what he should do, which he later then does. That just logically follows - it's the kind of thing you would expect him to do if he could based on what we know about his personality. It's a case of true foreshadowing. Sanderson is putting it out there that the character thinks about that kind of stuff, making it a cool payoff when he later actually does it. The wine scene isn't foreshadowing. It isn't showing us more detail into how Veil/Shallan/Radiant see themselves (none of them consider the possibility that Ialai's comments have anything to do with them) or insight into how other characters see them (Ialai doesn't know or even suspect that Shallan has DID). I think one or the other is required if we are going to consider this foreshadowing. The scene where Mraize says he thinks Veil is the "true" personality -could- be foreshadowing, because it is laying out a possibility for us to consider as readers based on the opinions of characters. Or, it could be a red herring. We don't know what will happen yet. The wine scene is not because it is not showing us the opinion of a character nor is it showing us an example of something happening to give us a hint of something similar possibly happening in the future. The other examples you are talking about are much different. Those are things like thematic references or possible 4th wall breaking, they are "meta" type commentary about art, fandom, and other topics. They are not secret messages telling us what will happen in the plot or hints toward a character's secrets.