agrabes

Personally, I think that's a stretch. Vorinism reads like an adaption of real life religions (past and present), similar to just about every other religion that exists in a fantasy novel. Do a good job at what you do and you will be rewarded in the afterlife is a very common theme in religions around the world all the way back to ancient times. A fight in a spiritual realm among divine beings to defeat evil is also a common theme in religions. Vorinism also does not say that you will die again and again once you've risen from the dead the first time. I took this section to mean that once you die and rise again, you will have eternal life similar to the heaven in western religions though it doesn't specifically say that. So I wouldn't say it's exactly like what is happening to the Fused. You might still be right though, interesting find.

That seems like the most positive way of interpreting it. Nale's statement of the Fifth Ideal "I am the Law" seemed more ominous in the context of the order as we saw it in the books. It struck me more like what a corrupt politician or police officer would say when someone confronts them. "I'm breaking the law? I AM the law." If they reach the 5th Ideal, they are essentially saying they themselves are the law and therefore cannot be held to any standard by others. There are probably skybreakers who lean both in the positive and negative direction.

Most likely because that just isn't how it seems to work. Is there any case where any hopeful Radiant has just gone out to find a spren, asked them for a bond, and then shook hands and gotten together? Every bond we have seen (other than possibly the Skywatchers) has been formed by a person acting in a certain way and with certain qualities that attracts a spren. The spren is always the initiator. I would argue even with the Skywatchers, their actions attract the spren but the other human Skywatchers forbid them from forming the bond until they've reached a certain amount of progress. I'm with you in the sense that there should and probably will be progress between OB and Book 4. I think a lot of Radiants will show up and they will actively be trying to make progress in other areas. I just don't think we're going to come back and find that they've developed a super weapon, or solved one of the huge fundamental mysteries that was left unsolved at the end of OB. That would suck as a reader, missing out on a fundamental change in the world. For example, let's say they discover (if this is true/accurate) that aluminum could stop a shard blade or maybe they invent a shard blade fabrial. If that just appears on the scene when we come in during Book 4 then we don't get to consider the strategic implications with Dalinar, the logistics of getting enough of it to make a difference in the war with Navani and Jasnah, etc. You lose those discoveries as plot points and just get them as power ups. To me, that's much less interesting. I'd rather them fight with the powers they have than introduce something radical and new off screen. I would much rather we see something like an early scene where they talk about testing the powers of aluminum that then develops into them figuring out how to actually use it effectively over the course of the book as sort of a C or D plot that's going on in the background. As far as the in world reason for why they wouldn't have made huge discoveries, I think they have a lot of other things to be doing. They have made a loose coalition in a few months, but they need to hammer out more formal alliances, assign duties and expectations for the various nations and other people in the coalition. They need to figure out how to get everyone organized and fighting as a unified front against the Fused. They also need to determine their grand strategy for how to defeat Odium. My guess is that in this year we will find that they've been out looking for things, working on research, etc, but they will not be done with it when we see them again. They might be at a stage where they are testing some things and trying to work out the final bugs, we may learn about a few failed expeditions or things they've done with limited success. Anyway, just my two cents and what I would like to see.

I agree there's no way they've just sent someone to bond the Nightwatcher. For one, I don't think they necessarily know that the Nightwatcher is a spren and/or one of the Bondsmith spren. For another (more important, imo) it's not like you can just send someone to walk up to the Nightwatcher and say "Hey pal, please let me bond you!" This has to be a huge and significant event, similar to Dalinar bonding the Stormfather. This would be the same with the "Sibling." The only chance I see of the Nightwatcher or Sibling being bonded off screen is if a complete outsider who is unknown to our main heroes is to show up as sort of a rival to Dalinar who has been living somewhere far away (maybe one of the Shin?) who has totally different ideas as to how the Knights Radiant should operate. Then, it would make sense and that person would have been sort of a parallel Dalinar who was rising up in another part of the world. I also think it is likely there will be a lot more Radiants in Urithiru by the time Book 4 rolls around. We are going to have to get to the point where we don't learn about every single Radiant individually and it seems like that point makes sense to be now. There are something like 5-10 radiants in Urithiru now, I expect by the time of Book 4 there will be 50-100. I would guess that most of the orders will have at least a few members showing up similar to how Malata showed up with only a little introduction introducing the Dustbringer order. There may be a few orders where the Spren are intentionally holding back and not allowing themselves to bond. I think one possible plot of Book 4 could be an investigation into why some orders of Radiants are starting to populate while others aren't.

I do like a lot of SA characters, but not that many of them have the same kind of arc as Venli (at least the one I'm assigning her in my head). What is interesting to me is a character who does something that is wrong with good intentions that are very logically sound and believable, who then comes to realize through reflection and observation that they made a mistake and changes their ways at least somewhat. What makes it even more interesting to me is when their goals and motivations don't line up with what we think the "good guys" are supposed to be doing. If they can find a way to be no longer evil, but still not in alignment with what the main heroes want, then that is the best situation for me. I think Venli has a lot of potential for this - she's not going to be down with another desolation that ends in the humans defeating the Parsh/Singers and sealing up the fused for another few years. She will probably have her own motivations and goals and will be trying to bring the rest of the team around. I think this is where I differ from a lot of fans - many people want the villains to be villains and the heroes to be heroes, or they like the grimdark type genre where no one is really a hero and everyone is just a different degree of bad, but I like to have people in the plot who are good people with their own motivations that don't align with the heroes. Kaladin and Dalinar are the only others in SA I would argue fit the mold, and both are only partial fits - Dalinar didn't necessarily think the bad things he was doing were morally right while he was doing them, just that they were his duty and he was addicted to the thrill, though he feels bad about them now. Kaladin felt that what he did was right and now has changed his mind, but it's not necessarily true that what he did was wrong, just inconvenient and needlessly inflexible aside from the Elhokar plot. For the sake of this discussion, contrast that with Eshonai: She pretty much sticks with conventional wisdom the whole way through. She believes it's wrong for the Parshendi to return to their old gods and consistently works toward that goal the entire time. She is never really does anything that could be considered morally wrong by anyone, though she does make mistakes. Her actions are in alignment with what we as readers expect from a hero. She reluctantly agrees to go to storm form to try to spare the rest of the people from that fate, not realizing that doing so will warp her mind. Then she dies. She doesn't have a bad story at all and I do like her as a character, but she doesn't fit the mold of what I consider the most interesting character type. In Mistborn only the Lord Ruler could really be described as falling under that type of category. He does something he thinks is right, but it's implied that he reflects over time that he probably made a mistake. Though even he doesn't really fit the mold because he never really comes all the way around and continues on committing atrocities in the name of what he thinks is the greater good. It still makes him an interesting character. The other characters either never do something bad beyond a momentary lapse (Vin, Elend, etc) or never acknowledge that some of the things they did were wrong, even if they were done with good motivation (Kelsier).

Fair enough - I'm willing to admit it's been a while since I've read Venli's POVs. Maybe I'm the one assigning her a less petty motivation out of my own imagination. I guess my point is that I think if we see Venli's early life, prior to any influence from Odium or Voidspren, we will see a different Venli and only then will we know her true motivation. I believe her true motivation is that she wanted to obtain power to protect her people or maybe just to advance the power and capabilities of the Parshendi overall if it was prior to the Alethi threat. She probably did this for partially selfish reasons - the glory of being the one who discovers the new abilities - but not total selfishness or a desire to keep the power to herself. This might be wrong, the flashbacks will probably tell us for sure one way or another. I think that once Venli had been influenced by the voidspren and Odium, everything she did was compromised until she realized later on that she had been influenced. This influence started before we ever see her on screen and only ended partway through OB, so it includes her interactions with Dalinar. It's fair enough if you don't like Venli or think she's uninteresting. She's just interesting to me because she is someone who is starting to be reflective and understand that what she did may not have been the correct choice and that the results she thought would be good were actually bad. I like those kinds of characters, probably more than most people.

I feel like again, you are reading your own views into this. Where does it say, in the books (aside from Eshonai's personal opinions) that Venli merely wanted power? Yes, she did sacrifice her people's beliefs and culture for what she felt was a good reason. Not her own personal power, but power for her people as a whole. She believed her people needed this power to survive - they were being slowly whittled away in battles on the Shattered Plains as they lost to the humans little by little. What I'm talking about here are Venli's initial motivations to being searching for the forms of power, not what she did after she was heavily influenced by Odium. You also have to keep in mind that Venli (like Dalinar in his flashbacks) is under the influence of Odium once she goes into storm form. Eshonai has the same reaction - she starts doing things that would have been out of character for her prior to the change. Similar to Dalinar in his flashbacks, it took a significant event to shock her into realizing that what she had done was wrong and not in keeping with who she was. Prior to that, Odium was twisting her initial motivations (desire to protect her people and to get vengeance for their deaths at the hands of the humans) into ways that caused her to act out of character. This part is probably me making educated guesses about Venli, but I think they are reasonable guesses that can definitely be proven right or wrong if Venli is a flashback character in Book 4. I don't think her motivations being fear make what she did any less interesting. Less noble, sure. But not less interesting. In real life, many changes in society are caused by fear of an existential threat just like what Venli feared. I do agree that Venli did not have any idea that her actions would free the Parshmen - that's why I referred to it as an unintended consequence. I also agree that as of now, she does not care that she did it. But, I do believe that in Book 4 she will realize that she should care about them. I also believe that regardless of what Venli herself thinks now or in the future, to the overall plot of the book freeing the Parshmen will be a positive and good deed. You can argue that it holds no merit for Venli since she didn't intend to do that, and that's fair.

I feel like you've read a lot more into Eshonai than many people have, or at least than I personally have. I have nothing against Eshonai, but I see her plot (that has occurred on screen) as pretty equivalent, but slightly less interesting than Venli's. Half of the things you describe as Eshonai's plot took place prior to tWoK and are recapped in a few paragraphs in the OB prologue. In my view, that doesn't count. On screen, we do see her struggle vs. Venli for the future path of the Parshendi people. We know, being the omniscient readers, that Eshonai is right about seeking the old Parshendi gods, but Venli and Eshonai themselves don't actually know that. I honestly consider her and Venli to be pretty similar in terms of character development. I think you're also doing a disservice to Venli by calling her selfish. That is Eshonai's belief, because she has a different view on what is best for the Parshendi than Venli does. Venli believes they need power to defeat the humans and makes sacrifices to get it, while Eshonai believes that having the power is worse than being defeated and wiped out as a people. Venli is not being selfish, she's simply trying to look out for her people's survival in a different way than Eshonai. To me, it also makes her a more interesting character because she is challenging tradition and conventional wisdom. She's trying to evaluate the world as it is and find her place in it rather than just fitting in with what she's been told. Let's not forget that she did also accomplish the good of freeing the Parshmen from their mental slavery. The regular parsh are good people who have now gained the ability to think for themselves thanks to Venli's actions. That seems to be a major theme that is going to carry throughout the book and is a major plot in Kaladin's arc. The people we think are our enemies may not actually be our enemies - not in a crappy "I defeated this guy and now he's come over to the good side" way, but in an interesting "We're fighting right now, but we never really thought about why we were fighting. Should we actually be doing this?" kind of way where the answer is different for different people. Her actions had unintended consequences both good and bad.

I do think you're right in terms of Sanderson's thinking, but I also agree with Argel in the sense that I believe the story suffers for it, at least through the three books we have. Brandon needed/planned for Szeth to be part of the big battle at the end of OB and probably struggled to figure out how he could realistically do that while also keeping OB to a reasonable size. The situation wasn't -totally- illogical: Szeth showed up at a time of need when Dalinar pretty much had to take all comers. Then, after the fact Dalinar does sort of an object lesson type of thing where he tells Szeth he needs to accept punishment for his crimes. Probably sort of a test - like you will be able to leave jail once you're ready kind of a thing. I still think the story suffers a bit though - in a perfect world Szeth would have had a really cool story arc for how he gets back with the main team. Sort of like how both Shallan and Kaladin had cool story arcs for joining up with the Kholins. Neither of them were able to just show up one day and become buddies with the Kholins, they had to prove themselves in various ways so that it felt really natural for them to all become friends/family/allies. It may be that he still will have a good story arc. I'm glad to hear this latest WOB because it does seem like he has a good plan in mind. Maybe once all the first 5 books are out, we'll be more satisfied with Szeth's arc.

I don't think we necessarily -have- to go that route with a Herald POV. The Heralds aren't going to necessarily be thinking or talking about their past. They seem to be either too crazy (Taln) or too unwilling (everyone else) to talk about it. I'm not saying its necessarily likely, but they could have POVs without revealing too much in terms of Roshar history or the Cosmere. I personally prefer the Heralds and think a POV from them is more likely than a Vasher or Vivenna POV. Not that I dislike either of those characters, but I don't want Warbreaker becoming too much a part of Stormlight Archive. It's a cool easter egg when they're relatively minor characters and if they build up as part of the overall plot of Roshar I'm OK with them taking a bigger role over time. I don't want them to jump in and continue their plots from Warbreaker just with a new background. From my perspective, I split up Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin because I felt like having the three of them together again on what will probably be another desperate undercover mission against heavy odds would be sort of a rehash of OB. I do think Adolin and Shallan will have their interactions in the early part of the book as things get going, but after that everyone will be too busy doing what needs to be done for much else. I also think Shallan has several of her own goals (Ghostbloods, her family, etc) that will lead her in a different direction than the main group. Just my two cents though, who knows what will actually happen.

More for curiosity than anything - what do you what to see from Eshonai that you haven't seen already? We've already seen her perspective of the treaty and Gavilar's murder, we've also already seen her perspective on the forms. Is it just that you like her as a character and want to see more pages written from her perspective? That's totally cool if that's the case.

It's been a while since I read OB, but I don't remember getting that impression. It seemed more like confusion and uncertainty about Nale and the Skybreakers, who were telling him that he hadn't done anything wrong - in fact according to their moral value system he had done exactly what was right. That said, it's been about two years since I read the book and I could easily be remembering wrong.

Szeth is probably my least favorite "main" character, mainly due to the lack of consequences for his actions and the retcon of his death or his resurrection pre-retcon. I don't like the way he seems to take the "just following orders" excuse for the many terrible things he has done. He was not under magical compulsion to do what he did, he chose to do it based on a personal code of values that he had to listen to his government/elders when they said he was "truthless." I get that part of the point of Szeth's story is that people's definition of honor can be different, and sometimes even contradict what a lot of people would call morally right. I can appreciate that as a good moral message for the book, but it doesn't mean I like Szeth's character. I thought he had a great story arc in tWoK and WoR - does a lot of bad deeds, but feels bad about it and then realizes what he's done is wrong and was entirely his own choice all along. Then he dies and pays the price. If it had ended there, he would probably be one of my favorite characters. Instead, he sort of pops back up and is told that everything he did was fine because he did what he thought was the law and then he moves on as if he never murdered dozens of people as part of a plan to plunge the world into chaos. I don't really get the feeling of person who is tortured by his past from Szeth the way I do from Dalinar. My most favorite through WoR was probably Shallan. I thought her character arc was really interesting and the way she tried to always make the best of bad situations, bring out the best in people despite having faced so many hardships herself, etc. I didn't like her OB arc, but depending on what she does in Book 4 and 5 if the overall arc continues to give better context and meaning to everything she went through and did in OB, then I could easily see myself enjoying that arc as well once I understand it in context. If Shallan continues on a path that isn't in my personal preference, then I'll probably default back to Kaladin for the same reasons as everybody else. Dalinar is a close third place.

I'm with you. Eshonai was always a minor character, so it's totally fine for her to disappear after two books. More than anything, I'm interested in seeing why Sanderson wants to tell a flashback story of hers. The flashback sequences have always been my least favorite part of the SA books. Shallan's was so-so, but felt significant to me because it revealed a lot of interesting new things about her character that are very relevant to her current plot and that we couldn't have known otherwise. Kaladin's was also just OK, but told an interesting personal story that explained a little bit about what life was like for "regular" Alethi and what had started his life on a dark turn. Dalinar's, imo, was lame. Just about everything we learned from the story that was relevant to Dalinar's current character or the overall plot could have been better told without doing flashbacks. I just couldn't get invested in characters who (other than Dalinar himself) are all dead now. I would have been happier if the flashbacks were about half the length. I think Sanderson is trying tell us something with his "killing his darlings" comment. He talks about this on the Writing Excuses podcast, a phrase he has for the need to kill off ideas that you as a writer think will be great in theory, but are either too hard to pull off in practice or just aren't nearly as exciting to anyone other than you. I think he set up the idea of having a certain structure for each SA book and sometimes the overall book suffers for it. What could a set of flashbacks with Eshonai and/or Venli tell us that is relevant to the characters and story we see in the main plot? Maybe Venli's motivations and reasons for doing what she did? He may be considering either changing or pulling back on the flashback structure in general. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of faith in Sanderson and whatever he ultimately does will be great, but so far the flashbacks have been (imo) the least great part of it.

Here are my thoughts: Group 1 Major POV: Kaladin Szeth Venli Group 1 Minor POV: Adolin Group 1 Minimal/No POV: Renarin Group 1 Thoughts: I think Kaladin and Szeth will be sent on some mission, along with Adolin and Renarin and likely other minor characters. They will eventually encounter Venli, who starts off separate from them. Following past precedence from what Sanderson has written, he considers Adolin a secondary character (though a fan favorite) and will keep his viewpoints at a similar level to OB. They will bring Renarin because they want his healing and future sight powers, but he will stay as a non-POV character or only very short scenes with POV. Group 2: Shallan Jasnah Group 2 Thoughts: I think the year gap between OB and Book 4 will give our heroes time to realize life is difficult, if not impossible, in Urithiru without all its fabrials working. As the two smartest radiants, these two will be given the task to make Urithiru work again. They will probably receive support from Navani and any others who aren't sent out on the main mission that group 1 is tasked with. Group 3: Dalinar Lift Group 3 Thoughts: I could see group 3 going in one of two ways - one: it's a political story with Dalinar trying to forge alliances with Azir and other nations. Lift is pulled in due to her ties with Emperor Gawx. She doesn't want to be a politician, but is forced into the role because she's the only one they have that has powerful ties. The other alternative is we see a plot with Ash and Taln doing something. I feel like the Heralds have to try to do something now that they know the desolation is here again. It would make sense the way Sanderson described Group 3 as just sort of keeping track of what certain characters are doing. So, Ash and Taln may have now regained enough sanity to believe they need to gather up the Heralds they can and try to help/do their duty.

Where have all the shardblades gone? Long time passing. Where have all the shardblades gone, long long time ago? Where have all the shardblades gone? Young girls pick them, every one. When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

After following this whole discussion, I feel like people just got way too dug in on points that don't really mean much in the long run. IMO - you are right that we don't know for sure everything that's going on in the world of Roshar and because of that and the fact that this is a fantasy novel where anything can happen based on what Brandon Sanderson wants to happen, they could invent synthetic gemstones. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it happens sometime in the next 7 SA books. Certain societies can be well ahead of the curve of the rest of the world - for example China vs. the West and Middle East after the fall of the Western Roman Empire until the 1400-1500s to the point that they may have technology that seems like magic to other people. So it's possible that Roshar could develop artificial gemstones without going through the same gradual steps and progress that happened on Earth just like the Chinese invented gunpowder or the Romans invented concrete well in advance of the rest of the world. That said, I also think Karger is right that based on what we have seen on screen and general knowledge of how people make discoveries in science, it doesn't make sense that they actually would make that discovery unless they are told how to do it through the Heralds or some other external knowledge source. What we see in the world just seems to be way too deficient in the relevant areas of technology. To my knowledge, there has been no evidence on screen that they know how to use chemical processes to create synthetic substances of any kind. If they don't know that they can make a synthetic version of a naturally occurring substance, that makes an even larger barrier. I also don't think we should be sure that the Heralds themselves know enough chemistry that they could tell the people how to make artificial gemstones. They might know, or they might have a magical means of knowing, but based on what we know about the Heralds the individual people who became the Heralds haven't been shown to have technology at the same level as when artificial gemstones were invented on Earth. Another point is that I think if artificial gemstones were to be invented it would be a significant enough plot point that Sanderson would have started laying down breadcrumbs that people are working on it or something similar. Then again, maybe not. It could be a secret of one of the other nations that hasn't been on screen yet but will be revealed later on when things get desperate. *shrug* Anyway, my point is this is just something we can't know until we know. It seems unlikely they will invent it in the front 5 through normal scientific discovery based on what we have seen on screen is all I can say.

Fair enough. I do agree with your point that there is no such thing as "pure logic" - David Hume's philosophy taught me that. I don't agree that what you are describing in your second to last sentence is hate though. You might call it a hateful act and be correct in terms of how people speak using the English language, but a "hateful act" does not necessarily result from hate. It's called a hateful act because it's such a terrible act that people looking at it from the outside can't believe it would have been done unless the person who did it hated the victim. But what you've described is not a person who does hate, or have any feelings toward the victim. Instead, it sounds like a person who is experiencing depression or other mental illness trying to regain what they see as a normal mental state through whatever means they can. That's not hate, its desperation. A lot of "hateful" acts could be done out of desperation. For example - think of the drowning man who clings to his rescuer, tangling them up so both drown. He's killed someone who was trying to save him. If you describe it like that, it sounds like a very hateful person, but when you give it context you realize it was not a hateful act at all. Anyway, I don't think either one of us will bring the other around on this topic since it comes down to what we each fundamentally believe hate is defined as. It was interesting to learn your perspective though.

I think I understand what you are saying regarding hate as a lack of emotion from your reply to Genesis. In my opinion, you are confusing hate the emotion with "hate" as in "hate crimes". If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that if a person has a lack of emotion (in particular, empathy or sympathy) they are more likely to commit what society would call a hateful act against another person. For example, if a military dictator believes a certain group of people are subhuman, then he/she is more likely to commit genocide or other atrocities against that group. Or in a less extreme example, two people talking online don't see each other as real people so they are more likely to be mean to each other (i.e. Twitter, Youtube comments, etc). If that is what you are saying, I agree with you in the sense that lack of emotion can cause bad things to happen. However, I disagree that this is (necessarily) hate. Hate is an emotion. Lacking positive emotions (sympathy, empathy) does not mean that you lack negative emotions (anger, negative biases, prejudice). So in many cases while a person might claim to be acting without emotion, they are not. They are just acting without positive emotion. Also, if a person truly is acting based on what they think is objectively right based on pure logic, without any negative or positive emotion, then what they do is not hateful. It appears to people on the outside to be hateful and they will definitely be labelled as hateful, but it is not. It is still (probably) morally wrong, but you can do things that are morally wrong without hating the victim. You can commit a crime classified as a "hate crime" even if you don't actually hate the victim. Am on the right track here? I think it just comes down to the definition of hate. In terms of Odium, I am thinking in terms of the feeling/emotion of hate. Imo, this lines up with the in world intent based on Odium calling himself "passion". Yes, he is trying to spin things his way, but he's clearly basing it in the expectation that his intent is an emotion. If Odium is intended to represent hate in the "hate crimes" sense of the word, then you are probably right. In terms of worldhoppers, I'm not saying it's unfair to speculate about where they might be or even that there aren't any out there. And this is the Cosmere board so this is the appropriate place to do it. But, it gets tiresome to me that there are a lot of people who like to create grand cosmere-wide schemes out of things that are (imo) better as mysteries related to one particular planet or book series rather than the whole cosmere. For the most part, the people who are worldhoppers are almost beyond the edge of any of the main stories. The one exception being (if they do turn out to be worldhoppers, seems likely) the Ghostbloods. Otherwise, I think people are making a lot out of a little. That's just my opinion though. This stuff is fun for some people and I don't want to shut them down, but also want to point out that these are wild guesses that are unlikely to be true so don't act like it's proven fact.

I think you're getting a little overboard on this. Anger is a passion, the same as joy, sadness, sexual desire, etc. Passion just means strong emotion, it doesn't have to be positive or negative. The first definition of hate when you google it is "intense or passionate dislike." Hate requires passion. Is Odium just "Passion"? Probably not, but on screen so far he hasn't shown that he is just "hate" either. There's a good chance in the next book or two we will see that everything he has done is to lay the groundwork for increasing the hate in the world, but as of right now he's shown relatively little hate on screen. But to the main topic of this thread: misconceptions. I think the biggest misconception people have is that they are way too quick to tie things into grand schemes with world hoppers, shards on other planets, and the cosmere at large. If anything seems slightly unusual it must be a worldhopper. People are forgetting that there are a lot of mysteries left just on Roshar or Scadrial that are internal to that planet and its own story. The other world hopping stuff is just in the background right now. I don't think Sanderson is planning to bring that to the forefront for another 5-10 books in the cosmere based on what he's said on his blog or other posts.

I wouldn't say Skybreakers aren't dark - they are kind of dark as an order. At least, some of them are and always have been. They are the cops who hold you to the letter of the law just because they think it's right, even when they know everyone is worse off if they do. They don't really care about people, only the law. In some cases that can lead to a valiant, noble hero, sometimes it's kind of a tragic, but noble story, and sometimes it can be vindictive. I think the Skybreakers have been primarily in the vindictive territory ever since they went underground. I would also say though that the Skybreakers aren't on Odium's side - they are on the Singers' side which Odium also claims he is on. I don't think Nale is going to be taking orders from Odium, though he might take orders from the Fused. If he can be convinced that the interests of the Singers and Odium aren't in alignment, he will still actively fight Odium.

Yeah, the excerpt is an interesting point. I think what makes this interesting is that the Stormfather makes it clear that he doesn't full understand what happened in those days because he was just gaining consciousness and understanding. To me that means he remembers what happened, but his mental capacity at that time wasn't strong enough to understand anything beyond the face value. Sort of like how early on Syl doesn't understand Kaladin's emotions when he looks at the poison plant so she draws the wrong conclusion. His memory being "strange" is a flag to tell us that he doesn't know the full picture, or that he's probably interpreted something wrong. He says the Dawnshards were used to "destroy the Tranquilline Halls", referring to Ashyn. But, that could just as easily mean that the Dawnshards were used to seal the path to Ashyn, destroying the ability to access it, especially if humans didn't have the Dawnshards until they got to Roshar which seems likely. Another point is that in this memory, he references the Dawnshards and Surgebinders separately. He says the Dawnshards were used to destroy the Halls and says Surgebinders would destroy Roshar. The common link is the people - humans who are descended from the original people who left Ashyn. The weapon used doesn't necessarily seem to be the same. Honor was raving, probably about things the ancient Radiants didn't understand, like implications for the wider cosmere about what was happening on Roshar. I think it's most likely that Honor was misunderstood by the Radiants in those days and the Stormfather didn't understand his true intentions either. I don't think anything in the Stormfather's memory indicates that Ashyn was destroyed by surgebinding. I think you've kind of hit on a mystery that may not be explained until the back 5. It all ties back to the origins of the war and the desolations.

Yeah, to me the response is more surprise than anything. Like - he's trying to figure out what, if anything, from the text could have given someone that impression.

This is a really interesting idea. Thinking about this brings some good context to things like the decisions of the Knights Radiant to break their oaths, etc. I'm not sure you're totally right that there are huge inconsistencies here (in the sense of errors in Sanderson's writing) but I do think there is something to the stories about Ashyn's destruction and humanity's migration to Roshar that doesn't quite add up. I had a few thoughts on some of your points. 1 and 2 are inconsistent only if you assume that the Eila Stele is correct that Humans destroyed Ashyn with "Surgebinding, ancient powers of Spren and Surges." It seems logical that someone in world (particularly one of the "Dawnsingers" who knew only Roshar and its magic system) would assume that any magic could be performed only with Spren and Surges as they knew them. Also, keep in mind that "ancient powers of Spren and Surges" is not "Surgebinding" - there is no formal name in that phrase. The person who wrote the Eila Stele almost certainly had incomplete information and wrote the Stele from their own limited view. I don't think that Nohadon thinking that Surgebinding and Soulcasting are two totally different magic systems is particularly relevant. It's likely that people during his time had different perceptions about the nature of the magic. Think about "centripetal" and "centrifugal" forces, the forces involved in rotating objects. These concepts have been understood by physicists for hundreds of years, but Newton's conception of the idea in the 1600s is different than modern physics today. They were talking about the same effects, but over time we understood them better. In terms of Urithiru, I don't know that it's necessarily true that Urithiru wasn't the home on the Knights Radiant in Nohadon's time. Doesn't Nohadon make a pilgrimage to it that he describes in the in world "Way of Kings"? It's been a while since I read this section of the books, but I don't remember him saying anything that would indicate the Knights Radiant weren't based there. My impression of Ishar's contributions were that he built up the rules around the bonds. Prior to Ishar, the spren bonded with humans, formed shard blades and possibly even plate based on whatever each spren and human pair thought was appropriate. Most likely, the same powers were granted (two surges per radiant spren). It seems most likely because there isn't anything I've seen in the books that indicates otherwise. For example, Kaladin immediately had access to both surges once he had access to one. Neither he nor Shallan gained them one at a time. Then, there were probably issues like humans breaking bonds, abusing their powers, etc which created the need for Ishar to develop formal rules of how the bond should work and how the Knights Radiant should behave.

That's true - but I think the key difference is that he is displaying (and doing) things opposite of "hatred". For example, Ruin doesn't preserve or create in order to destroy. Preservation doesn't destroy things in order to preserve them. I don't remember really any details of the Endowment letter to Hoid, but I assume she wasn't taking things away (or whatever the opposite of Endowment could be). I honestly do think there is more to Odium than just basic "hatred." And maybe, like you say, it's just that Rayse has enough control over the Odium shard to delay the hatred (be nice for now, you'll get to really be hateful to them and make them hate you later on if they think you're their friend now). That could easily be the case, but I personally like the idea of Odium really being more like the concept of Divine Hatred or Righteous Fury than plain old hate.