agrabes

One assumption you make is that Adolin will be a POV character in this book. I don't think that's necessarily a given, unless there is a WoB that I've missed. Adolin has had POVs in every book so far, but never more than a handful. It might be that he doesn't get any this time around. Or, the WoB does say we will get a POV from Adolin about Shallan but it doesn't say when. So it's still possible he would be one of the minor POVs in Group 1. I think you're right that Navani must be a major character in Group 1 and probably Kaladin. The Jasnah/Shallan pairing would make a lot of sense for Group 2, imo. This would leave Adolin as either a minor POV in Group 1 or a non-POV character in Group 2.

I think your point about the Stormfather is interesting - I've never felt he was too powerful or too central to the story. The whole recharge/overcharge thing at least as I understand is not a normal power of the Stormfather/Dalinar. It was something that happened once due to unique circumstances. The Nightwatcher seems to be equally powerful in a different way and can do things that the Stormfather can't do. She is the source of the Old Magic, just like the Stormfather is the source of Surgebinding. The Sibling we just know too little about to say, but you have to assume it is just as powerful in its own way. Whether the Sibling is associated with the oaths like that, I'm not so sure. I think it's all circumstantial evidence you've put together. The Stonewards and their personalities being tied to Oaths is an interesting idea. It just feels a bit too loosely connected for my personal preference. You're saying "The Sibling might be associated with Stone", "The Stonewards seem to take Oaths more seriously than other orders," and putting those together to get "The Sibling is associated with the Oaths." I think your individual ideas are good - it's just layering them all together that starts to stretch things for me. I'm not saying it's impossible but it feels like a pretty tenuous thread. My personal thoughts on the Sibling are that it's more of a formless/flavorless mass of investure. What makes me think that is because it's always described so generically - no one says what it was like or what it did. Most people think it is what powered Urithiru and the Stormfather is protective over it. That to me indicates it is childlike and in need of protection. I think the Radiants used it to power Urithiru thinking it was completely unintelligent and just a big "battery" they could use for their own purposes. They trapped it in a fabrial, probably the giant gemstone that Shallan finds. I think this is the abuse that the Radiants did to it. I think around the time of the Recreance, they learned it was at least partially intelligent and self aware and felt bad for what they had done. Not seeing a need to maintain Urithiru because they thought there were not going to be any more desolations, they released it from powering Urithiru and it went to sleep.

So to simplify your theory and make sure I'm following: Bondsmiths are connected to three other orders - Willshapers, Windrunners, and Truthwatchers. Those three orders' associated colors/elements are Stone, Wind, and Pulp. Two of the three Bondsmith spren are generally known, each could reasonably be associated with Wind and Pulp (less so for pulp/Nightwatcher than Wind/Stormfather). If pulp and wind are taken, logically the third should be associated with stone. This makes sense so far. Then, assuming the Sibling is the third Bondsmith Spren, it must be associated with stone. Because it is associated with stone, you argue it should also be associated with the oaths in general. And because it is associated with the oaths, then its slumber is caused by the mass breaking of the oaths. I personally think this is quite a bit of a stretch. I think the biggest evidence against the Sibling being associated with the oaths is that the Stormfather seems much more associated with the oaths. He seems to be the one who watches over the Honorspren and has at least some influence over their oaths. He seems to actively approve or deny oaths saying things like "These words are accepted." At a minimum he does this for Syl, but he may do it for other spren as well. Even if you could say that both the Stormfather and the Sibling are associated with the oaths, this would mean that the Stormfather should have also slumbered when the oaths were broken which did not happen. Aside from that, I think it's also fair to say that it's really tough to link Nightwatcher to pulp/plant matter. She doesn't seem to have any properties related to plants, aside from being associated with Cultivation who is associated with plants. The things she does are not related to plant matter or growing plants. So, if Nightwatcher isn't associated with "pulp" then why should the Sibling be associated with stone? I think the third connection between radiant orders is about personality affinities between typical members of those orders. I seem to remember it being said in the books or in WoB that Windrunners and Lightweavers are naturally suited to work well together. Though, I'll admit I can't find that reference now so it may have just been someone else's theory. Or, it could be that the third line represents links between the essences as believed by the Vorin religion during the time of the books. I think this was referenced in a WoB.

Yeah, it's true he has the life draining limit. But in my opinion that limit is not enough of a limit to justify infinite power. That limit would still allow a random peasant to grab Nightblood and kill Odium, then die 5 seconds later. Sacrificing one life to defeat the ultimate evil is an extremely small price to pay. I have read the Wheel of Time. I don't really see that as a similar situation at all. At a high level, the story of the Wheel of Time is Rand & Company gradually building up their own power so that they can conquer the ultimate evil. They get help along the way from people who are more powerful than themselves at the time, but that help is never up to the challenge of defeating the Dark One and the forces of evil. In the end, it's Rand who defeats the Dark One and reseals him in his prison. They don't have another person from another planet with limitless power come in and suddenly defeat the enemy. I'm not really sure I'm following your LotR example. Sure you could argue that Gandalf should have recognized the Ring's true nature in the Hobbit, but Gandalf didn't have the ability to just teleport himself to Mt. Doom and drop the ring in. If he did, he would have done that when he finally did discover the Ring. He formed the Fellowship of the Ring because he needed support to make the long, hard journey there. So, even if Gandalf had recognized the ring sooner, there still would have had to be a similar effort to destroy it. NIghtblood coming in to save the day makes it feel unsatisfying because his (possible) ability to destroy Odium is not a product of the work of the main characters. Him being the weapon used to defeat Odium feels like a Deus ex Machina. If Nightblood were a magic sword that was created by the Heralds or Honor and Cultivation as the ultimate anti-Odium weapon of legend and the entire story of the front 5 books was an epic quest to find him and training to use him safely, then that might feel satisfying. What actually happens is he just randomly appears one day.

1) I don't doubt that's true. It doesn't mean he still doesn't have practical limitations. That's Sanderson's entire concept of magic - the limitations and weaknesses of magic are more important that the powers. That's what makes his magic systems so great. 2) Because bringing in Nightblood makes the work and struggles of all the Rosharan characters less meaningful. If it really is only Nightblood who can defeat Odium or some other major enemy, then it means nothing any of the Rosharan characters did was meaningful at all. The entire story of SA1-5 could have been replaced with one book where Nightblood arrives and immediately kills Odium. All the training, all the struggles, the pain and suffering could have been avoided if they'd simply stayed home and waited for Nightblood to arrive. If Nightblood can solve every problem, then no one needs to do anything other than rely on him. That's just not interesting, imo.

Yeah, I think it's a fair point to say that the flashback characters have generally appeared in every part of the book. But haven't their flashbacks generally in appeared in every part of the book too? Dalinar's definitely did. It feels like something different than usual is going on here since it's confirmed that the flashbacks don't start until Part 3. There would need to be a reason for that in the overall structure of the book. One possible explanation is that we don't see Venli POVs at all until Part 3, making her a Group 3 character. Another might be that it could reveal secrets that would give away things that need to stay hidden in Parts 1 and 2 of the book. I think it's a little bit of a leap to assume that just because Sanderson gave a reading of her POV during a time he'd said he'd only written Part 1 segments necessarily means that POV segment was actually in Part 1. Wasn't that the first reading he ever did from the book, before he talked about what groups and parts were being written? He may have written that scene, then moved it to another Part of the book later on and figured one scene of Part 2 or 3 didn't really count as having started writing. Or, maybe he wrote that one scene specially for the early preview he gave out of order with the rest of the book. He may have even entirely scrapped that scene. There are always disclaimers on these readings that they don't necessarily represent the final book. I personally think Venli has to be in either Group One or Group Three. My reasoning is that we expect a major plot arc of this book will be Venli converting to the side of the Radiants. If she was in Group Two, her last POV would be in Part 4, before the main climax. So, it would be like she converts to the Radiants and then just gets sidelined for the rest of the book. If she's in Group One - she probably converts early and spends the whole book coming to terms with it. If she's group three, she converts last minute and turns the tide. Anyway, not trying to be overly critical. You've done a lot of work on this and it's a really cool project. Just trying to point out that most of the WoBs we have are not 100% solid information.

I'm with you. Nightblood is the favorite of people who really love the theoretical mechanics of the Cosmere which go far beyond what has been shared in any book or officially published material. Sanderson has provided a lot of information on the theoretical upper limits of the power of Nightblood which makes these people really excited. Nothing wrong with this, people can like whatever they want to like. If it's fun to think about those possible mechanics for you by all means do, it's just not my thing. But like you said, in actual appearances on page Nightblood can't actually achieve his theoretical upper power limits. And think of how lame that would be if it did happen. Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Adolin, Jasnah, your efforts and struggle against Odium were all irrelevant in the end. Just bring in a superpowered semi-sentient sword from another planet and he'll wipe out Odium in one hit! I highly doubt that Sanderson will write it that way. Nightblood will probably play a part, but it'll remain limited. In my view, the less Nightblood the better. My personal expectation is that Szeth will decide the drawbacks of using Nightblood are too great vs. his regular shardblade. He'll keep Nightblood in a safe place to keep him from falling into the wrong hands but not use him in normal combat. He may pull him out once or twice in a moment of dire need, but won't use him continually.

One key assumption you've made that I think is incorrect: the flashbacks count as "POVs". In his chart https://imgur.com/tcE4p4Q from your WOB [1], Sanderson shows the flashbacks as a separate category from the three POV groupings. So, I think you could say that Venli might be in Group 2 and still have her flashbacks appear in Part 3 of the book. She just might not have "present day" POVs in that part. Another point is that from the evidence we have, you could argue that Venli may be group 3. Here's why I think there's a good case for that: Venli is still kind of a villain, and none of the villains have had major POVs up to this point in SA. Her flashbacks don't start until Part 3. This doesn't seem to line up with the style Sanderson has used up to this point if she appears "present day" in Part 1 as a POV, but not as a flashback until Part 3. This didn't happen in any previous SA book. The Part 3 characters appear in Part 1, but don't have POVs. Then, their climax comes at the very end of the book. This could make sense if Venli arrives as a "villain" and makes a challenge in Part 1. It would also make total sense if the climax was the final part of the book - as Venli fully changes sides. Anyway, just some thoughts. I just don't think Venli is a lock for Group 1.

Thanks - good WoB. It generally lines up with what I thought - normally people are promoted/demoted based on service and capabilities most of the time. Some lower ranks can be bought too - which I didn't mention but I don't really see as a contradiction since it seems these lower ranks are below the level of landowners. Rank is not directly tied to land ownership (owning more land doesn't make you higher rank). It almost seems like it's the other way around - you get promoted and as a duty you are given land to take care of. The military conquest side of things isn't confirmed, but could easily fall under the King and High Princes ability to directly raise someone if they so choose. Of course, the other example is following Gavilar and Dalinar's path - if you conquer everyone you can raise yourself to become a king or high prince.

I don't think the ways people can advance are ever spelled out in the books. But that a few things like getting a shardblade or owning land make you "automatically" of a certain rank strongly implies that there is another way that you would get that kind of rank more normally. My guess is promotion by higher nobles based on your accomplishments and influence at court. Or, military conquest - wield enough military power and you can demand you are elevated. That is true that Kaladin is the main one who sees the skirmishes he's involved in as worthless. I don't remember Dalinar seeing those types of battles (skirmishes between Alethi lords) as politically important. Border wars, I do remember Dalinar defining as politically important but it seemed more based on things like military advantage and honor/reputation than wealth. I don't remember that part about Sadeas, but don't really doubt it's there. Sadeas is shown as one of the most intelligent and strategic Alethi lords though, so even if he does recognize it that doesn't necessarily mean they all do. I think you have shown that there are at least some nobles who find at least some value in land and agriculture. I still think it's not valued in the same way it was in real history because of the differences in the real world vs. Roshar, but it's hard to really say for sure.

Right, those things exist for sure. But, the land does not seem to be the source of power or money, it seems to be a way to display power. At least, that's the tone I've picked up from the books. For example, land ownership qualifying for a certain dahn is fine, but you could reach that qualification in other ways too. It's just like having a shard blade also automatically qualifies you for a certain rank as well, but it's not the primary way of getting that rank. The primary way of getting rank seems to be military success and conquest or family ties/inheritance. The land disputes and border wars, because they're always called meaningless, always gave me the feeling of people fighting just to fight rather than truly feeling that land was really valuable. It's also the general attitude of the warlike Alethi - they like to find any excuse to fight. You don't see any of the nobility talking about their wealth coming from owning fields and livestock or other rural economies. They talk about mines, factories, or conquest in battle/hunting chasm fiends. I also think the fact that Sebarial is the only high prince who is even thinking about building up an economy and business as a priority and how he is mocked for it shows you how the nobility of (at least) Alethkar value land and commerce. This is all just my interpretation though - I'm not sure it's fleshed out well enough in the books to really say one way or another. Well, I would argue we don't know that this is a total collapse like the end of the Bronze Age or the Fall of Rome. It could be more similar to the World Wars or the Napoleonic Wars, large scale wars that devastated large parts of the world and completely transformed society but did not collapse all major governments. That's the key distinction in my opinion. If there's still a strong enough central authority and power structure in place after the desolation, then you will not see a breakdown like those other events. I personally predict there will be, but that's just a prediction. I think if you look at the results of the other desolations, things got so bad by the end because they were repeated. I would imagine that after the first desolation ended, it was more similar to a WW1 or Black Death situation - major changes but if you squint you can still recognize what was there before. There was a strong enough government in place before the desolation that something was left afterward and there was enough time to recover that people could rebuild to some extent and adjust to a new order. Once desolations started coming more than once in a hundred years is when I think society started to totally collapse.

That's a fair point that we do have to consider the possibilities that things could play out differently since we do have Cultivation and Odium in the picture. It seems like the fused may not necessarily specifically target libraries, but I'm sure they will still destroy several. It is really hard to say what might happen though. Another good (I think) implied point you have is that population distribution is much different than real world due to the high storms. In the equivalent type of society in earth, the vast majority of the population lived in rural areas working in agriculture. Due to the high storms on Roshar, it seems you don't have people living scattered across the countryside they have to gather up in the fortified cities and towns for protection. It seems like the wealth and power of the nobility is not based on agriculture because it doesn't seem that they value it all that highly or that there is as much of a concept of land ownership. It might be that we just don't see that (or I've forgotten reading about it) in the books and it really is there, but I haven't had the impression of the nobles fighting over land. It seems like there have been raids where people steal or destroy livestock or grain, but no battles to actually change the locations of the borders. I think this is because of the way agriculture works on Roshar. It seems like they can't just plant large fields due to the risks of the high storms. Everyone has to live in the same place for protection, and there's a limit to how far away they can go to actually work the fields. It also seems like Roshar has a relatively low population density due to the harsh conditions. So, the impression I got was that most land is not worked for agriculture and there's not any mention of the most powerful nobles having the greatest lands. The power of the nobility seems to be more tied to military power and reputation, at least for Alethkar. We don't know enough about the other countries to really say. They might be different. I think you're right about everything you're saying, but I'm not sure that your conclusion is right. I think it's something more like World War 1 - the high class families were devastated because their sons were dying at a much higher rate in the war than any previous war. It did take a real toll on the young officers, hitting the higher class families hard. I don't know any numbers, but it it's probably true that a higher percentage of high class families lost family members in the war relative to the lower class families. However, in terms of sheer numbers the lower class soldiers still made up the vast majority of deaths. Each noble or higher class citizen has to do more supervisory work than before, but in most societies it's not like they were working long hours anyway. They can pick up the slack. The lower classes already worked long hours just to survive and have now lost a significant portion of their workforce. To keep up the same production levels, they will need better tools like fabrials. Real history has shown us devastating wars and plagues often lead to more power in the hands of the common people. The only historical example I can think of where the opposite happened was the end of the Roman Empire when feudalism was basically formed. The main reason that happened was because the common people were constantly under attack from raiders and other civilizations looking to steal the wealth of the crumbling Roman Empire, so they paid for protection in the only way they could - by essentially making themselves property of the few ultra rich people who could afford to protect them. The reason that happened is because they needed constant protection and the central government could no longer provide it for them. I don't think we'll see that post desolation because people generally won't need constant protection after the desolation is over. They will also have the order of the knights radiant to help provide protection, assuming it's not destroyed.

Coming back to the original topic a little bit - something else to consider in Roshar's technological future are the impacts of the desolation itself. It seems like most historians would say the end of feudalism in Europe was caused by the black death plague and the resulting increased negotiating power of the peasants/serfs. Since there were fewer people, each peasant's labor was more valuable and it was difficult to find either "scab" peasants to come fill in for the ones that didn't toe the line or field armies to put down peasant rebellions. So - all that is to say that I think the result of the desolation will be a greatly reduced number of people in the peasant class on Roshar, a greater need for labor saving devices like fabrials, etc. I think what you'll see coming out of the desolation is a large amount of change happening in a relatively fast time. For hundreds of years, not much has changed in Rosharan society, but in 50-100 years things may be totally transformed. If it follows real world history it's probably still too "slow" to be seen in the time scale of the SA series though. I expect you'll see a "bourgeoisie" type class arise to the extent that maybe the top 20-25% of society now has some wealth and power where before it was more like 5% and the bottom 75% have more freedoms and at least an improved chance for upward mobility. The Rosharan economy and wealth already seem to be mostly separate from land ownership, so you may not see as much of a power and wealth shift from the aristocracy to the wealthy "commoners" like you did in the real world as industrialization took hold and made factories more valuable than farmland.

I think the Kaladin/Shallan who had it worse question is explicitly addressed in WoR. Kaladin himself acknowledges that Shallan's pain and suffering is on par with his - he can tell as soon as she opens even a little window into her true feelings. It's just that her mechanism of coping is to suppress her own memories and paper over her feelings so she can keep on functioning. Kaladin's method of coping is to withdraw and turn inward. Both definitely have their flaws. I personally don't exactly demand change but I like characters better when they do change. It makes them feel more real and satisfying to read. I think Szeth has changed in some ways as a character - the key change being that he has realized that he was not actually "Truthless" and all the things he did in WoK and WoR were not justified by Shin law. Hoid is a minor character in Stormlight Archive, so you can't expect him to get enough screen time for a character arc where he would change. Everybody likes what they like and that's fine. If you don't like Shallan there's no problem with that. But she's one of my personal favorite characters along with Kaladin. I'm probably different than a lot of people here though - I value the politics, the emotional interactions, the planning, etc much more than the action and fighting scenes. Lift, Hoid, and Szeth are probably my least favorite, though Lift is growing on me.

I do think that's true - the original Diagram was tough for him to crack and/or get a hold of. And it seems that Odium didn't necessarily find it himself, he was told about it. But, once he did know about it he was able to extrapolate on it instantaneously and learn everything about it better than anyone in the Diagram organization did. The only exception is things related to Renarin. I was just rereading the scene with Odium and Taravangian. It seems like Odium's powers of future sight are kind of a "deterministic" type of future sight. He has the ability to figure out the future by calculating cause and effect, he doesn't just automatically know all the future. That's what hid a lot of the aspects of the Diagram from Odium. Now that Odium's seen it and examined the future related to it, it seems like it would be really tough to do anything that Odium wouldn't already know about unless it's tied to Renarin which seems to be a blind spot for him. You're probably right that they can't have a plan for how to trick Odium after he knows about the Diagram. It seems like their strategy was to get things prepared and in place for the day they finally met with Odium. They even said they reached out to him intentionally. So, yeah I think I was wrong about the contingency plan thing. I don't know that Mr. T can see things Odium can't, exactly or that the reason for this is that it's not "Fortune." I think the opposite is true - Odium can see exponentially more than Taravangian. But, for some reason specifically Renarin is hidden from Odium somehow. My personal guess on that is that the reason is something unique to the relationship between Odium and Renarin/Glys, not something to do with fundamental powers of the Cosmere. Something like because Glys is partially of Odium, Odium can't foresee Glys/Renarin's actions because they are his own actions in some sense and it creates a paradox or something like that. The reason I say that is because if it is something more fundamental like "Renarin is immune to all types of future sight! (considering that the Diagram isn't really future sight, it's hyper-intelligent predictions of the future)" that seems overpowered and kind of lame to me. Not that it couldn't happen, just that I would prefer it doesn't and I don't think we have enough info to say for sure yet. It could be that Genius Taravangian did anticipate all this and deliberately planted bad information in the Diagram to lead to this result. Either one of the two options you listed could be true. I personally just don't think they are. Taravangian maneuvering events for Renarin seems out of line with his character. On his smartest days he's selfish and lacks compassion. He doesn't seem to be the type to set up someone else to be the hero. The entire purpose of the Diagram and his trip to the Nightwatcher/Cultivation was to glorify himself and make himself the savior. He didn't ask for the world to be saved, he asked for him to get the power to save it. The Kaladin idea could be possible but I just don't personally like the idea. It feels like cheating - Kaladin is protected from Odium and can just go do whatever he wants to win the war. It also has the same problems with it being out of character for Taravangian setting up someone else to take the spotlight. I think the "Plant" theory is the most likely one personally. It seems like this is all part of Cultivation's plans and Dalinar, Lift, and Taravangian are just pawns in her game. It totally fits with everything we've seen from her so far. Though to be fair, we haven't seen much.

If that's the case though - Odium being able to see through everything in Diagram 1.0 - why would he not be able to see through Diagram 2.0? Then does he need Diagram 3.0 and so on? If Odium can uncover one secret plan, then unless you can invent a new way of hiding the plans he can uncover them all. Especially after he's discovered the first one and knows that you are up to something. He's going to keep a closer eye on you going forward. It seems the Diagram had plans for the contingency that it was discovered early by Odium. So, I think it is more that the Diagram had considered many possible outcomes and that in his lesser states Taravangian would only be able to understand those branching paths when they happen. The Diagram also planned out what should be done if Odium discovers the plan.

I'm with you - it feels like Kaladin spent most of OB struggling to hit that 4th Ideal and with the year gap he's probably really close to getting there. It would just make sense - he powers up early in the book, but then finds that even with that power up he still isn't strong enough. Then he spends a lot of RoW trying to figure out the 5th Ideal. I think SA5 will be too full with main plot and wrapping up the story for a very individual plot for Kaladin.

I think the triangle is 99% likely to be finished. You can tell this from Kaladin's attitude at the end of OB when he says to himself that he realized he confused the happy feelings he got when near her with actual love/attraction and realizes she reminds him of his relationship with his brother more than anything. IMO, this is bad romance writing from Sanderson, but that's not a universally shared opinion. Either way, it's been written pretty clearly that Kaladin is done pursuing Shallan. You can also tell from Sanderson's comments about love triangles in general - he's said something to the effect of not liking love triangles on several occasions and that he would want any that he wrote to be wrapped up quickly. There was a thread a while back about this where several of us went into depth with our thoughts so I won't rehash. I do think that there will be some kind of pressure to the Adolin/Shallan relationship. I agree that the relationship just doesn't feel satisfying and that Shallan does not seem like she's really "all in" yet. I just don't think Kaladin will be a factor - he's moved on.

"I was following orders" is not a good defense in all contexts. It's a good defense for Szeth specifically to other Skybreakers due to his personal code of honor and the values of the Skybreaker order, but I don't really think it's a defense that would work for say, a citizen of Jah Keved which is now in ruins due to Szeth's actions. Even most other Skybreakers hate Szeth for what he's done. You can argue that you were just following orders, but most orders of Knights Radiant and general citizens of Roshar are going to say that you have a duty to disobey unlawful/immoral orders. Yes, Dalinar would definitely put Szeth in prison. He's trying to promote the rule of law and reassure the nations of Roshar that his international coalition is not all just an Alethi plot to take over the world. Those plots come up and are discussed explicitly in OB. Dalinar has to give up things he wants and even desperately needs to manage international politics. After the events of OB, maybe no one would deny that a coalition is necessary but Dalinar could easily be removed from leadership over something like providing shelter to Szeth. Yes, Szeth could just cut his way out of prison but he won't. He's honor bound to do what Dalinar tells him. Szeth needs to face some consequences for what he did for both his own sake and the sake of the people of Roshar. If he wants to grow and develop, he needs to understand that he should have refused the orders to murder people. He shouldn't be sheltered from the consequences of his actions. I don't think he's going permanently to jail, but I think he'll be there for some period of time until Dalinar feels Szeth has learned a lesson and the people are satisfied that he can be released. I'll also point out that while the most cosmere knowledgeable readers understand that Szeth's sword could permanently kill the fused neither Szeth nor Dalinar know that. I suspect that at least half the readers of SA don't know.

Could be possible, but no reason to think it's likely. What are the facts we know: Szeth has committed many crimes that have gone completely unpunished up to this point. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people are mad about that including Dalinar's inner circle. Dalinar Orders Szeth to go to Prison The most logical thing to assume is that Szeth is going to prison as a punishment for his many crimes. Sanderson usually brings this up in response to questions like "Are there going to be any consequences for Szeth? Did people just forget he was the Assassin in White?" which also implies that the prison stay is punishment. Doesn't mean he couldn't be doing something else, but there's no reason to suspect it at this point.

Remember that at the time the first humans left the "Shin" lands they were not yet called Shin lands. All humans lived in the special protected area where only the Shin now live. The people who live there only became called the Shin much later. Dalinar calling the first human-parsh war the "Shin Invasions" would be like someone today calling the ancient Assyrian Empire's conquest of Ancient Cimmeria the "Turkish Civil War of 671 BC". It hasn't been revealed yet, but it seems likely that the "Shin" of Dalinar's time are descendants of the humans who refused to leave the original lands they were given on Roshar. It would make sense why they still stay isolated there for the most part, why they value non-violent professions and why they might have more knowledge of the past.

1) It is a distinction with a significant difference - people of various races within the same species all have generally the same intellect, physical capabilities, and other biological properties. It is obviously, and clearly wrong both factually and morally to make claims (as people used to do) that a person from one race was inherently more intelligent, more moral, or better in any way than a person from a different race. A people of different species have different biological properties and may have significantly different intellect or physical capabilities. We know that the Parsh do have significantly different biological properties from humans and that they think in a significantly different way because of it. It would be as if those people in the 1800s and early 1900s who believed in all that racist pseudo-science that one race was scientifically superior to another turned out to be factually correct. As distasteful as that is for us to think about, the world would be a much different place if that were true. 2) I don't excuse any of the humans who had memory or knowledge that the Parshmen were or might be sentient. Those in the first few generations knew what they were doing and misled their children to hide their own crimes. That is vile. However, for hundreds of years between the time the memory of the original enslavement died out and the time the Parshendi were discovered the humans did not have any way to know or even suspect that the Parshmen were sentient. We also don't really know the story of how the Parshmen came to be essentially the slaves of the humans. It may be that originally the humans took them in and simply cared for them out of guilt for what they had done, but over time found they made good servants and workers and eventually started exploiting them. Or, it may be they were exploited from day one. But that story makes a significant difference. I feel like you are drawing in real world history and infusing it into a situation that is similar in some respects but vastly different in others. Yes, people did make all kinds of racist arguments justifying slavery. They claimed that people of other races were not truly sentient, or if they were they were culturally so backwards that it was better for them to be enslaved and "protected and guided". Yes, those things are absolutely horrible. But, that is not what the Alethi in the time of Dalinar's childhood did. Anyone who had contact with a real world slave could easily realize that they were in fact sentient humans, because they were. They displayed all the characteristics of a sentient human. It was an intentional choice to believe otherwise, motivated by racism. That is not comparable to the Parshmen. They were not humans and they did not display any characteristics of sentience. Their sentience was locked away by magic. There was no way to discover that they were sentient using the most advanced science of the time. This is a very significant difference compared to real world slavery and makes the entire situation so different that it really is not comparable, imo. It's also a pretty significant stretch to say the Parshmen situation is a lot like Colonialism. There are obvious references, yes, but we just don't know enough about the early history of humans on Roshar to know what happened. We don't know that the humans ever initiated a war of conquest or ever intentionally started a war at all. We only know that they left the Shin area where they were supposed to be and that a war started later. We don't know how the humans behaved during the early parts of the desolations, but we have to suspect they were losing the war badly for the Heralds to have been created. The humans committed a horrific war crime when they created the Parshmen, there's no doubt about that. But we don't know the overall context of the wars that led up to that event. It was probably not the first war crime in the thousands of years of Human/Parsh warfare though it probably was the worst. All I'm trying to say here is that there is a lot of information we as readers don't know and there is also a lot of information the characters in the story don't know that makes it a huge stretch to say "This is just like Western European Colonialism and the enslavement of Africans in the real world." There are a lot of reasons given in the book to think otherwise. I personally see the Parshmen issue as only vaguely similar to real world slavery due to all the real and meaningful differences between the two. I think that Sanderson intentionally made reference to real world events and concepts, but made the story of his books different enough that he could tell his own story and examine "What if?" scenarios. I don't think he wants to simply retell the story of slavery in the US or speculate about how the long lasting damage it caused should be handled politically. I want to be clear that I don't support the perpetrators or seek to minimize the lasting impacts of slavery in the US, but I do have a different opinion on the plot of SA. With that, I'll bow out of this discussion since it's getting a little too close to current real world sensitive topics.

I do agree the three estates were (like you said) a political idea and not a 100% exact description of life in Ancien Regime France. I always saw them as one of those things that is both political/classist (I want to make up an external reason for why I can be in charge of you) and legitimately believed. Really, it's like a lot of things in politics today. There are people who hold positions seriously based on real beliefs and values and others who hold those same positions for the political expediency. Either way, though, after I responded to your original post I saw a few of your other replies and I will admit you did put out some good evidence that the lighteyes/darkeyes distinction does have more of a racist element than I originally thought. I still believe it's not -only- racist, but it does have racist elements. I would also be interested to know how something like the Caste system in India worked and if lighteyes/darkeyes is closer to that. I think you are right that lighteyes/darkeyes is not a 1:1 comparison to real world racism and Sanderson probably did this intentionally to avoid being too much like real world issues faced by a lot of his readers. I think he did the same with the Parshmen and slavery, it's not a good 1:1 comparison to real world chattel slavery either. He probably did this intentionally. There are two main reasons why it's not a great example of racism or slavery: 1) It's not racism, because the Parshmen are not a race of humans. Therefore, it cannot be racism. The Parshmen are a different species. I realize this is kind of a semantics argument, but I think it's an important distinction. 2) It's not chattel slavery as we know it in the real world, because the Parshmen were not of human level intelligence during the time of they were used as slaves. The closest equivalent would be if we suddenly discovered a wild herd of horses that had human level intelligence. Then, we found out that humans had intentionally kept the dumbest horses as captive beasts of burden and tried to kill all the intelligent ones. That would create a similar moral challenge to what the Alethi faced when they discovered the Parshendi. Was using horses all that time equivalent to chattel slavery? Is it slavery if we keep doing it now that we know how we got them? I'm not going to say the Alethi responded well to the discovery of the Parshendi - they didn't. But, it's not a 1:1 for chattel slavery. The literal chattel slavery experienced by Kaladin and all the Bridge Crews is a 1:1 comparison to real world chattel slavery.

That is true - it was common toward the end of the era of aristocracy that wealthy commoners could buy their way to titles. I originally was going to mention that in my previous post, but felt like it got a little long winded so I deleted it. My understanding of that is that only in the later periods was it possible to buy your way, after industrialization had basically bankrupted many of the nobility and raised up a new super wealthy class. The royal families and the nobility were running low on funds and begrudgingly accepted those bought titles because they had no other choice. But, my understanding is that those "new rich" were always sort of treated as less than the old blood families. I think the reason we don't see this in Alethkar is because they have not had the same kind of economic and societal transformation where the wealth of the old aristocracy (land) becomes much less valuable and allows a new wealthy class to arise. The lighteyes of Alethkar don't need to accommodate wealthy darkeyes because their own wealth is generally still secure, just like the aristocracy of Europe didn't accommodate commoners until they had to. The other paths - university training allowing relatively high status is equivalent to the top ranks of the darkeyes. Someone like Kaladin's father was highly respected and had high social status. It was only Roshone's jealousy and the whole stealing/not stealing the gems that caused him problems. That was a situation specific to the people and we're told that it doesn't reflect the overall situation in Alethkar. I don't know for sure, but it seems like darkeyes could also become ardents and attain relatively high rank there. I think in the real world of old Europe, you could attain relatively high rank as a commoner in the priesthood, but the highest ranks were still reserved for those who came from noble families. After all, there were a lot of people with titles like Prince-Bishop, etc. A lot of the things that the characters do and say can be understood through the lens of the Three Estates. In a lot of western Europe, the Nobility felt it was their divine duty and role of their class to be leaders and fighters. They refused to engage in business even when it could have benefited them because it was not an appropriate role for their position. The Priesthood and the Commoners also had their divinely assigned roles. You can see this attitude in Adolin's POVs - he feels that based on his religious and cultural beliefs that he and his fellow lighteyes are the only ones suited for the role of being military leaders due to the influence of his religion. In the same way, they leave the business enterprise to the darkeyes and the control of the church to the ardents. I'm not saying this is a good attitude to have, but it's not a racist view in my opinion. It's a distinction based on class that is tied up in religious trappings, just like the old monarchies of Europe.

You are correct that a darkeyes can never reach the lighteyes ranks (aside from earning a shardblade) during their lifetime. Like you said, the only way they can seek advancement is for their children, and only that through marriage. However, that does not mean the system is any different than a caste system or a nobility system. There is a real ceiling to how high a darkeyes can climb, but there was also a real ceiling to how high a commoner or person of a low caste could climb with only extremely rare exceptions. For example: Like you said, a darkeyes could never be a ruler. However, a commoner could also never be a ruler. A commoner could marry a noble, but the noble would be the ruler, not the commoner. Later on, yes you could buy yourself a noble title if you were rich enough after the nobility started having money issues due to industrialization. I think that if Alethkar ever found itself in that situation (the lighteyes going bankrupt and the high tiers of the darkeyes extremely wealthy), you would see the same thing happening - pay for the use of a shardblade to keep your eyes light colored. The point is that for nearly every scenario, the lighteyes/darkeyes distinctions and class barriers match societal and class based barriers that were in place in real world western Europe during the Middle Ages. Think the Three Estates of pre-revolution France. If I knew enough about the history of real world caste systems, I suspect that we could find several examples of how those class systems were just as rigid. The behaviors and rules we see match up much more closely to a class based system than a race based system. I also have a hard time calling people with a difference in eye color to be a distinct race. There are differences among people shown in SA that we would call "race" in the real world - different skin color, facial features, general build, etc. In my view, if this was truly a racist system, there would be special places in the formalized caste system for the Shin, the Horneaters, people of darker or lighter skin, etc. But, we don't see that. We only see that having light eyes gives a person a higher floor for their social status because they are presumed to be descended from ruling families of long ago. In my view, the "lighteyes" concept is a way of showing this is a fantasy world and that the nobility and their descendants have a physical marker to identify their noble blood, however diluted it is. Sanderson also used this concept in Warbreaker with the noble families having the special hair. You do have a good point about the Parshendi/Parshmen distinction though. The arrival of the Parshendi created a serious moral issue which the Alethi did not respond well to. So, you're right once they see the Parshendi they realize something is up and as a society they choose to hold on to the free labor from the Parshmen rather than explore the real issue.