agrabes

Dalinar telling Szeth to go to prison means the same thing as saying Dalinar imprisoned Szeth. I'm not sure if you thought I was implying Dalinar was serving as Szeth's jail keeper or that Dalinar personally built a special jail capable of holding him or something? Either way, all I'm saying is that Szeth is in jail because of Dalinar. If Szeth is in jail, you're right that the most likely location is Urithiru. But I just don't see a reason for him to be interacting with the characters of group 1. He's in jail, they don't like him, and they are busy with other things. I think if Szeth would be considered Group 1 especially without a POV during the Group 1 chapters, then I think he would need to have significant interaction with at least one of the Group 1 characters. I just don't see it. I don't think Dalinar can be Group 1. We've been told he has a smaller role in this book and he has no POVs in a part of the story marked as Group 1/Group 2. At this point, Dalinar is pretty much locked to Group 3. I think that Dalinar will be focused on something that is important, but different from what the main group is doing. He has to think Big Picture now and can't be involved with individual missions. So he's likely keeping track of the main mission and will come along to help when needed like he does for the Hearthstone evacuation, but his primary goal is something else. I do think Lirin is the most likely candidate for the 5th person in Group 1 though.

True- but I wouldn't expect Szeth to be Group 1 since he's imprisoned by Dalinar during the book. Or at least, starts off imprisoned. More likely Szeth just didn't make the list. Though I admit, it's also just my preference too - I don't particularly like the way Szeth never really had to prove himself to be accepted by the group in OB. You can kind of forgive it because there wasn't much choice then, but now they do have other choices. It would feel lame to have him as a tag-along in the main plot group, somehow accepted to be part of the most critical mission without proving himself yet. This probably puts Group 3 as Jasnah/Dalinar politics plot? Traditional Lineup: Group 1 - Navani, Kaladin, Venli, ???, 1 POV ? (Main fight + Fabrial Research) ???= Renarin? Rlain? Teft? Malata? 1 POV? = Lirin? Herdazian General? Group 2 - Shallan, Adolin (Mission to Shadesmar) Group 3 - Dalinar, Jasnah (Politics) Not Counted - Szeth, Ash, Taln, Lift Controversial Lineup: Group 1 - Navani, Jasnah, Shallan, Renarin, 1 POV? (Fabrial Research Team, Including Field Mission to Shadesmar. Adolin hangs with this group and gets some POVs but wasn't counted in the list due to not being a major player in the Research Team. Actual fighting plays secondary role vs. technology war) Group 2 - Kaladin, Venli (Kaladin - Diplomatic Mission to "Listener" Remnants for Character Growth + Main Fight) Group 3 - Dalinar, ??? (Politics + Main Fight) Not Counted - Szeth, Adolin, Ash, Taln, Lift

I wouldn't take it so far as saying the story is being hijacked by the DSM. In terms of Kaladin and his depression - it's such a common thing and so logical for someone with Kaladin's life experiences to have that I think it's great to capture it in a good way. In terms of Shallan, I'm not so sure that was a great choice. But, that's just my opinion. I think it just comes down to what type of fan you are. For me, I love the character interactions and their emotions as much as if not more than the fantastical power armor and giant magical swords. So, I love stuff like Kaladin's depression because it's widely relatable and feels real. And I feel like Sanderson walks the line well between making it annoying enough to be meaningful but not making the depression so deep and crushing it just makes you feel bad to read. I love Robin Hobb, and feel like the way she wrote FitzChivalry Farseer as a sad and lonely guy who still got stuff done when you needed him was an excellent example of this. I also read the books during a time in my life when I was living alone in a new town without a lot of friends, so it really resonated with me. But on the other hand I think she went on the wrong side of the line with her Soldier's Son trilogy. The protagonist was just too miserable.

Another point - many of the Fused are inhabiting bodies that belonged to former Alethi Parshmen who spoke Alethi. It could be that the body itself has that knowledge built in and the Fused are making use of it. I don't know if we know if the Fused inherit anything from the bodies they possess other than just the physical shell.

I think this is an excellent description of what's going on. I think in a way, Kaladin is almost Sanderson giving his thoughts on depresssion. We see Kaladin trying the same thing over and over to escape his depression and depressed feelings. It works for a while at first, but the bad feelings come back because as you said he never addressed the root problem. He gets diminishing returns each time. First he saves Bridge 4 and that makes him feel better for a while. Then, he saves Dalinar and learns to get over some of his prejudices against lighteyes and he feels better. But he can't just keep saving people. He comes to learn in OB that he can't save everyone. So he sees that what he is doing won't work anymore. And just like real life people who suffer from depression, it takes a conscious choice that you are going to do something different to really break out of the cycle. He's now being given the opportunity to make that choice. Really, I see this scene with Dalinar as super positive. He's being forced to make a change, which is the only way he can get better. Kaladin's a smart guy, but his nature is to charge forward and move on to the next problem rather than think about how to make things better. He's now been given a real opportunity for self reflection for the second time all series (the first self reflection was when Shallan forced him to realize how his views on lighteyes were often wrong, which led to significant personal growth for Kaladin and was one of my personal favorite scenes in the book). I think we'll see him forced work out why he keeps struggling so much mentally and that work will be super rewarding to read.

I don't think it's quite as simple as you're making it. It's not either "The Heavenly Ones" are totally good guys or totally evil treacherous snakes. It's that the Heavenly Ones are "Lawful Evil" moral alignment. They're both good in some ways and bad in others. In my view: Paired Dueling = Sincerely preferred fighting style, but used to their advantage whenever possible. It has pros and cons for both sides. On the one hand, the Windrunners put themselves in 1:1 duels even if they have a numbers advantage, which is a net advantage for the Fused. On the other, if the Heavenly Ones were willing to just go kill people they easily could and would gain an upper hand by killing enemy officers and other VIPS and killing the innocents would cause huge psychological stress to Windrunners. So the Heavenly Ones are also giving something up by choosing this fighting style. Having "Honor" = Sincerely held values, not out of a sense of "good" as our heroes would see it but out of a sense of what is right. Even villains have a moral system and see themselves as doing what they think is right. It doesn't mean the Heavenly Ones are nice people, it just means they think the best way of fighting is to challenge tough enemies in single combat. Moash/Vyre's Involvement/Association = Unknown. We have no idea if Leshwi or the other Heavenly Ones agree with Moash's methods. It's possible that they may object to him being assigned to work with them, but aren't willing or able to challenge their own leadership. We don't know how Leshwi feels about any of this. Sacrificing her Own People as Slaves = Subjective. First, it's reasonable that the Fused may not view the former Parshmen as being of their own people since for one they are thousands of years younger and two have only had their minds freed very recently so they are in some ways like children. The Heavenly Ones also may believe that sending less qualified troops out to die may be the overall strategy that would save the most lives in the end. Overall, I think there's enough there to say we should be suspicious, but not enough to say we should definitely believe that everything the Heavenly Ones are doing is an elaborate ruse designed to break the Windrunners. I think there's also plenty of evidence to say that there is at least some parallel between the Windrunners and Heavenly Ones.

Let's say Kaladin's story can be accurately modeled with the Hero's Journey template. If it is, his entire story should be contained within one "Journey". As probably the 1A lead character (to Shallan's 1B) I expect Kaladin will survive at minimum until the final battle at the end of the Front 5, so his Journey must continue at least that long. I personally think he'll survive longer. Here's my take. Note - there are no spoilers contained in this post, any references to future events are just speculation on my part. Call to Adventure: Kaladin is living as an ordinary soldier in Amaram's army and gains the opportunity to advance to greater heights by taking the shardblade from Helaran's corpse. Refusal of the Call: Kaladin refuses to take the shard blade because he knows accepting it would change his life forever. He gives the blade to Amaram, choosing to stay a common soldier. Acceptance of the Call: After dealing with the consequences of his refusal to start his adventure, Kaladin finds himself a slave in Sadeas' bridge crews. He slowly realizes that he is something more than average and with Syl's help he decides to try his best to use the power he's been given to help people. Threshold Guardians: Kaladin faces a series of challenges, but what truly launches him on the start of his journey to be who he will be is the battle at the end of tWoK where he rescues Dalinar and Adolin. He had the choice to leave them behind and remain in personal safety, but he chose to risk himself by fighting the Parshendi and saving Dalinar. After doing this was when he was first considered a hero. Belly of the Whale: Rescue of Elhokar and Swearing of 3rd Oath - Throughout WoR, Kaladin was just a soldier and bodyguard. Not important to the overall story and plot. He was acknowledged as a war hero for saving Dalinar and Adolin, but was still a small player in terms of the overall forces of good. He faces a huge personal challenge in letting go of his dislike of lighteyes and doing what he thinks is right, even to the point of fighting his closest friend to save someone he doesn't even like. After this, he saves Dalinar again and enters the public eye as a hero and one of the first new Knights Radiant. Tests Allies and Enemies: Mission to Alethkar - he goes on a relatively low stakes mission where he works with a key ally and love interest (Shallan) along with other important allies and faces Moash as a true enemy for the first time. This is a possible hint that Kaladin's final direct enemy confrontation will be with Moash. Approaching the Innermost Cave: Current state - struggling with his inability to deal with his emotions, unable to say the 4th Oath. He is clearly stuck right now - can't advance his personal relationships or his radiant abilities due to the same underlying issues. He will stay on "the approach" until he can resolve the problems he has with his inability to let go. The approach to the Innermost Cave is all of Kaladin's prep to be ready to fight in the final battle of the front 5 Stormlight books. It will culminate in him saying the 4th Oath. The Ordeal (future): After saying the 4th Oath, Kaladin will face his part in the final battle during SA5, presumably playing a major role in winning the day for Team Radiant. Seizing the Sword (future): In the final battle, Kaladin will say his 5th Oath or gain some other power up. This will result in a paradigm shift in the nature of his power and abilities, where all previous powerups have been only incremental gains. It will leave him in a position of great power at the end of the "Front 5". Refusal of Return/Road Back (future): In the falling action of SA5 Kaladin will have the choice to return to a more simple life and start a family, ruling some small area as a minor lord. His other choice will be to remain in power, leading the Windrunners and maintaining a large role in government and/or Radiant leadership. Demonstrating character growth, he will choose to set down his burdens and lead the life of a minor, rural noble. He will finally allow himself to be peaceful and happy. Death of Our Hero (future): Kaladin will choose to leave the life of a hero behind after SA5. During the 10-15 year gap he will have started a family and lived a simple life. He will no longer be the Kaladin Stormblessed who must wade into every combat and save every poor young soldier. Resurrection (future): In SA6, Kaladin will be called back to battle when something messes up the world again. He will eventually, reluctantly answer the call. Master of Two Worlds (future): At some point in the "Back 5", Kaladin will learn to balance being a father and family man with being a Windrunner doing each when it is called for. He'll be filling a role similar to Jasnah in the Front 5 - few POVs but still important to the story.

This kind of illustrates my point and why I dislike the Hero's Journey. There are plenty of examples of stories and legends which fit the Hero's Journey template well. Enough that someone got the idea that -all- stories must fit the template. But not all stories do fit the template if you read them start to finish. So how do you explain that not all stories actually fit the template of the Hero's Journey? Well, the easy answer is to redefine what it means to fit the template. Instead of saying the whole story must fit the template, you say that one hero may have multiple journeys. If you break apart stories into random components that match the Hero's Journey template but not the actual storytelling and get creative and extra broad with how you apply the Hero's Journey template (death isn't really death, except when it is, traveling through the underworld must happen in every story, but we get to be creative about what it means to travel through the underworld, etc), everything fits again. We can now say every story matches the Hero's Journey! Instead, we should just say many stories fit the Hero's Journey, many are similar to the Hero's Journey but different in key ways, and some don't fit at all. No offense taken! I'll navigate to your other thread and continue any discussion there.

Becoming a Radiant is way too small scope for his goal in the entire series. If Kaladin's story can be fit into the Hero's Journey template, then the template should match up to his entire story. If we're thinking of an overall Kaladin arc as a hero's journey those milestones you listed don't make sense. The shardblade was not a gift, it was something he created himself through personal growth and advancement in his Radiant oaths. I guess you could say Moash tempted him to leave the journey and join the Elhokar assassination plot, but then he is still missing other steps that should precede the temptation. If his confrontation was with himself, it means his primary adversary was also himself, which makes no sense and is way too small scope for the story being told in the Stormlight Archive. I guess you could say he already had a small scope hero's journey in each of tWoK and WoR. WoK was the journey to escape slavery. WoR was the journey to become a Radiant. Maybe he started a new journey in OB to defeat the forces of Odium which is still ongoing. But that's my whole point - to say that every story is a hero's journey is fundamentally flawed. The entire concept of the hero's journey is so overly broad that you can twist it to say anything is a hero's journey. Kaladin's story is much more complex than that (if it wasn't, he would have rode off into the sunset already) and we only know part of it so far. The only way to make it fit is to twist the idea of a hero's journey to say that Kaladin now has multiple hero's journeys. The point is - it's so broad and generic and open to interpretation that it can't be used as a way to predict Kaladin's future plot. It's something that can only be assigned afterward.

I mean... when you take a super broad outline you can work anything into it. Hero's Journey is good for what it is - understanding that many stories share common elements and what that says about human psychology-, but you're taking drastically different things and characters and shoehorning them all into one outline. I don't think the Hero's Journey can be used to predict future story because it's too generic and really requires the entire story to put everything in perspective. It seems a little bit of a stretch to say that Kaladin is in the "On the Road Back" stage of a Hero's Journey at about the halfway mark in the story. I mean, he hasn't yet achieved his goal (defeat evil and keep his family and friends safe), which most of the models of Hero's Journey require before starting the road back. The examples you see for the road back are things like Frodo returning from Mordor. We're nowhere near any similar point in Kaladin's story. Once we've read SA4 and SA5, you will probably have to re-adjust your interpretation of how Kaladin's story fits the Hero's Journey. If I were to classify Kaladin's status in the Hero's Journey structure, I would say he's still on the "Road of Trials" phase. He's not yet been gifted an item of power, he's not yet faced temptation to leave his journey (though maybe this reassignment from Dalinar could grow into that), he's not yet faced a direct confrontation with the ultimate power (Odium), he's not yet come to a great and profound understanding of something he was missing that will allow him to complete his challenge (most likely learning to let go of past hurts, etc), and he's not completed his ultimate goal of defeating Odium and bringing peace to those he cares about.

Yeah - fair point. It is one of those things where different things strike people differently. I always chalked up the fatal flaw in the Kaladin/Shallan proto-romance to the nature of their relationship with each other and Adolin. I never felt they were attracted to illusions of each other or that they didn't really know each other - just that they weren't ever able to fully open up with each other. I think Kaladin and Shallan understood each other and the things they were attracted to in each other were real and deeply true aspects of their characters, but each hid the true vulnerabilities from the other. They only got to see maybe 75% of who each other were - the good without the bad. They hid the bad things from each other because they just hide them from everyone in general and it was especially inappropriate to open up to each other in particular. For Kaladin - it's not right to get emotionally close with another man's fiance and for Shallan she would have seen it as being unfaithful. Both Kaladin and Shallan have that in common - they don't want to let anyone see their weaknesses. The difference is that Shallan is willing to open up a little bit to Adolin because he's her fiance, and he figures out the rest of it from there. That's how I read it at least. But then, I probably identify most with Kaladin of all the POV characters - so I'm not sure that says a lot of good about my romantic intuition .

I think without going too far down the shipping road I think the issue w/ your take on Kaladin is that you basically dismiss him as a self-destructive desire that Shallan allows to play out. I don't think that's how it was presented in the book, actually I think it was presented the opposite. As far as who was better for her, I think in the end you are probably right that Adolin was the better choice. There's very little chance Kaladin could handle the Shallan we see in RoW. But it's a little dismissive to say Kaladin had no good qualities or that Shallan only showed interest in him as a manifestation of self-destructive tendencies. My read of the Kaladin/Shallan dynamic was that Shallan found Kaladin attractive in some ways. He had qualities she liked (intelligence, wittiness, etc) and were important to her in a man which Adolin lacked. But, through her own self discipline and desire to stay committed to Adolin, she did not allow herself to act on that attraction. She buried it deep. When it resurfaced later in the Veil personality, it was distorted through a weird lens. Gone were thoughts about the positive traits she admired in WoR, now it was just a weird animalistic lust. My take on that is it is her self-hatred expressing itself - she hates herself for not being 100% faithful to Adolin and reframes her mild attraction to Kaladin as completely negative.

I think Dalinar's point to Kaladin that he should consider being an ambassador is interesting. We know of one confirmed ambassador mission and one suspected one that will happen in this book: 1) Confirmed Ambassador mission to the Honor Spren in Shadesmar. Could Kaladin join Shallan and Adolin on that mission? The Amazon blurb mentions an "envoy", so it's possible Kaladin will go on this mission. Then again - do you really want to send a depressed, recently stripped of command, Windrunner to see the honor spren? 2) Become an ambassador to the independent parsh faction of the former "listeners" and disaffected "singers." This isn't confirmed but just seems highly likely to be something that will happen in this book. Mentioning Rlain in this chapter also makes it seem likely. I think with Kaladin sort of being the "main" hero of the books and the book likely dealing heavily with the parsh, he's probably going to be working on a mission with/to them. Maybe this is where and how Kaladin learns there's more to life than fighting as a soldier. As much of a dedicated person as he is, it may take him first learning a new skill/trade that he feels is equally important to the war effort to understand that he can do other things than just being a soldier and still have value, still protect people. This may be his way to the 4th/5th oath. Or, it may be his way to accepting life as a 3rd Oath Windrunner.

I think of them as a Venn diagram - they share some things all together like basic functions and some general values like a desire to oppose Odium, some things are shared with one and not the other like how Radiant and Veil can wield a shardblade, but not Shallan, and other things are unique to only one such as Shallan's sense of humor, Radiant's sense of honor and propriety, or Veil's sneakiness. I'm not so concerned with what's medically or scientifically proper. I'm concerned with what makes sense in terms of the story and what would feel right (or wrong) based on what we know so far. If it turned out the Shallan we knew through 3 books was completely fake and is gone never to return again, that feels bad. Not bad as in "I feel sorry for this character because she had such bad luck" but bad as in "I don't want to read from the POV of some other person inhabiting Shallan's body." It's a good story arc if Shallan gets out of control for a while but brings it back by the end. I could live with her still having split personalities if she's able to return to having the Shallan we know clearly in charge and self-assured. It's even good if she just dies or turns evil. It's lame if the final reveal is "Ha ha ha, Shallan was never really Shallan you dummies!" But that said, I think I'm going to leave it at that for this discussion. I do think/hope we'll get some more resolution to Shallan in RoW.

She had access to all those things pre-split as well. Maybe she has slightly easier access now, but it's not new access. She can't create skill she doesn't have, because the source of all this is herself. I don't think you can describe having a mental illness as a strength. It's a fair point that she could create a new alter or re-arrange existing ones to be able to handle a new challenge. But if these personalities are split up, each one covering a portion of the "complete" personality, then by definition they can never have all the aspects of who she is at one time. If she did have access to all aspects of herself at once, then by definition she would be fully integrated. Anyway, this is all just a thought about how Shallan's condition and (hopeful) future improvement in ability to manage that condition will tie to the story and character development. I think that a problem will arise in the story that can't be solved until she achieves at least partial integration. Creating an additional alter might be a realistic real world response, but it would be pretty unsatisfying to read and whether or not this is true from a medical/scientific perspective it would feel to most readers to be a regression.

If you're using the mechanic metaphor, it's more like she's a one handed mechanic. Or a mechanic who has a mental block against using both hands in conjunction. She's got two wrenches and needs to use both to loosen a bolt. But she's only using one wrench at a time. No matter how fast you switch your hand from the wrench on the bolt head to the wrench on the nut, you can't loosen it. There are times she needs character traits or skills of multiple personalities at the same time, which she can't do right now. She can access all three as needed, but not simultaneously. Not saying she necessarily will or must re-integrate herself. But being split at least along the current lines of division is a weakness.

Thanks for posting that. It does seem like Group 2 is almost certainly Shallan/Adolin, much as I fought against the idea. Group 3 is very likely Dalinar/Szeth but not confirmed. In theory, I suppose it could be Dalinar/Venli with Szeth as a hanger-on with no POVs. Probably not likely though. Dalinar is confirmed to be not Group 1 or 2. Group 1 I think Kaladin and Navani are now confirmed. Lirin could be one of the spots, but might not be. Venli is most likely Group 1. So 1-2 spots are still open and will probably be taken up by a more minor character. As to your other comment - I'll just say I don't think anything like that is happening here at all. There's no indication that Kaladin or Moash will be leading singers or fused. There might be some fan speculation about it, but it's not in the books themselves.

Interesting, thanks. Those WOBs provide good context. I think there's not a complete definitive answer there, which is kind of Sanderson's trademark - he wants us as fans to have room to debate and discuss what might be actually going on. For my sake, I think his intent was always to have Shallan have an identity crisis that resulted in her having multiple personalities at least for some period of time. I think he was setting it up that her self hatred issues combined with her ability to literally become another person were going to come to a head in OB, marking the start of her struggle with multiple personalities. After OB, he decided the best approach was to try to model it after a real life illness and try to portray it as realistically as possible. But like you said, we'll see. I think we will get some answers about Shallan's past in RoW.

I have to admit, that's pretty impressive for typing on a phone. I don't think I have the patience to type that much on a touch screen. As to the idea of this being a possible alter creation, I don't buy it. Or at least, I don't buy that this is definitely a scene showing us the creation of an alter. I mean, as I understand it from WoBs you have posted, Sanderson was not intentionally writing her as DID during WoR. So this couldn't have been written as a scene of her creating an alter. I don't think it's very similar to the scene where she creates Veil, the scenes where Veil sort of becomes a true alternate personality, the scene where she creates Radiant, or the scene where she is contemplating creating more alters. In all those cases, either Shallan intentionally knew she was creating another personality for herself or it was shown clearly on screen that a personality was forming that was separate from the main "Shallan" personality. I think there's enough similarity there that it could be reasonably retconned into being a scene of a creation of an alter, but I don't think it was originally written as one. Meta reasons aside, what I think is happening in this scene is just what is shown. Helaran is trying to help his sister so he gives her advice for things to do that will help herself and her family. She uses his instructions not to generate an alternate personality, but as a guidepost to cling to on her way back toward a more normal life. When in doubt, she tries to follow his instructions. I think this scene is showing us how mentally tough Shallan really is - she goes from a completely traumatized and depressed state where she is completely non-functional and gets herself back into a still damaged, but highly functional state with her only outside help being a few words of advice from her brother. I wouldn't be totally shocked if you are right about this theory in the end, but I'm not on board with it at least for now.

I think it comes down to how people view personality and sense of self. People have a wide range of opinions on what it means to be "fake" or "real" when it comes to your personality and how you act. For me, I consider things like acting different in front of an important business guest compared to how you act with friends compared to how you act with family as all being true to yourself. I consider occasionally letting go of your problems to have fun even if you're experiencing serious trauma as being yourself and healthy so long as you aren't losing touch with reality. I consider the idea that you can have a "true" self which you don't actually ever show to anyone a problem. But other people consider my outlook as being fake and keep a distinct internal sense of self even if they never outwardly show it. It probably has a lot to do with a person's own self image. I consider the happy, put together self the true self, and the sad, struggling self as a hurt or damaged part which isn't who you really are, even if you do struggle sometimes. Necessary to acknowledge and work through the problems to get better (or you'll end up like Shallan), but not the truest representation of who I am. Others feel the opposite - the only way to truly be yourself is to openly display the depths of your pain. I don't know that there's necessarily an objective right answer. For me personally, I wouldn't call Shallan "fine" in WoK or WoR, but I would call her "complete" in the sense that she had not yet begun to manifest multiple personalities. Yes, she did have repressed memories and had experienced serious trauma. She had led a tough life, but was able to manage it by the skin of her teeth. That was what made her such a great and interesting character. And the fact that despite all the extreme misery she had experienced in her life, that she was able to find true joy and wonder in spite of it all was an amazing thing. What Kaladin failed to understand was not the depths of her trauma, but that her coping mechanism was unhealthy. He fully understood the depths of her trauma, that was directly stated in WoR. He just thought it was so amazing that she could let go of her pain that he never thought about how she did it, he never considered that she was becoming increasingly aware that the way she dealt with her pain was making her worse. Prior to about midway through OB, I considered Shallan a traumatized young woman with serious repressed memories and issues dealing with life's challenges, but I don't feel there were hints that she had DID up until Oathbringer. I didn't pick up on it until probably early-mid-OB but I think it was there all throughout the book if you go back and reread. I don't think that Sanderson even chose to start writing her as DID until OB. So really, anything prior to that would only be retconned as DID.

To be fair though, what we saw was that Shallan believes the "Shallan" persona is the fakest. She says this during a time when she's in a bad state of mind and full of self doubt. It's not nothing, for sure. But it's not a 100% confirmation either. I'd put it at a 30% chance of being correct that the "Shallan" persona is completely fake or mostly fake, but that's just mostly based on my own intuition. The biggest point of evidence against "Shallan" actually being fakest is that Radiant is really not a full human personality. It's hard to imagine someone who was "just" Radiant, the personality is so paper thin it really seems to only represent the concept of being honorable and noble. If there is a "fakest" it logically has to be Radiant. Veil could still in theory be "most real" but not Radiant. The Shallan we know is a person with a ton of self doubt, this has been consistent in her character throughout the whole series. She's the kind of person who thinks of herself as fake or less than, even though there's no truth to it. But, no sense rehashing that. I think this coming up in Ch. 9 does make it feel like we may get an answer to the question in RoW though. Regarding the "Formless" personality - The book is clearly implying that her inability to face her fears and tell the truth to Adolin is spawning another personality. Basically, one that can do the dirty work and keep her from having to acknowledge she's doing these things. But I think it's also showing a weakness of her current state and just her overall characteristics. Shallan hates to face up to big challenges. She can do it, but she will try absolutely everything she can to avoid it. You saw in early OB that she was actually willing and able to face her fears when she took on Sja-Anat. I think part of the reason she's lost that ability is that the components have been split out too much. Shallan has the cleverness and creativity, Veil has the guts and attitude to stand up to people, and Radiant has the nobility and resoluteness to stand firm and do things for honorable reasons. But none have all three. So Shallan might be able to think up a solution, but she's too timid to carry it out. Veil isn't timid, but is too self interested to do things for the greater good. Radiant is proud and noble, but lacks cleverness and spunk to be good in a fight or in a tough conversation. These personalities can solve certain aspects of challenges, but never one big one. And that leads to her inability to face her fears and tell Adolin what's going on.

It could be a combination of depression and PTSD. If this was real life, I'd say that's probably the case. And not to steal the thunder of the Stormlight Addiction thread, but I think this chapter pretty much confirmed that Kaladin is addicted to Stormlight. So, it could easily be that. But it's more fun to think it could be a serious outside force. I don't think it's a stretch at all that there could be a group within the Radiants who have differing opinions about the right way to fight the war, what should be acceptable tactics, etc. It's happened in real life too - for example the German debates about whether or not to use Gas in WW1.

Amazing chapter. A few thoughts: Kaladin is definitely being hit by either an Unmade or Odium. Something is keeping him down unnaturally, it seems like his normal coping mechanisms just aren't working at all. Or maybe this is just what it's like before you hit the 4th Oath for a Windrunner. Shallan's chapter was very interesting, but we can keep that over in the Shallan character threads. Mysterious communications to Navani: My theory is that it's a Willshaper. The theme of their order is to seek freedom. They seem to have enough knowledge to say the Honorspren are compromised, which to me suggests they are a member of "Team Radiant." I could easily see some Willshapers and their associated spren being strongly opposed to keeping lesser spren captive. Just like some people today object to animals being used as beasts of burden or for livestock to be eaten for meat.

I think Gaz does need to atone for his prior actions. But that should happen off screen. We hear in a line or two about how he is sorry for what he did. Maybe we get a short scene where he runs into Kaladin again and apologizes. Maybe we find out he's quietly been helping refugees or something. Just keep it in the background.

The Lies: 1) “They’re going to die, you know,” Moash said softly. “Shut up.” “Everyone you love, everyone you think you can protect. They’re all going to die anyway. There’s nothing you can do about it.” 2) “Do you remember the chasm, Kal?” Moash whispered. “In the rain that night? Standing there, looking down into the darkness, and knowing it was your sole release? You knew it then. You try to pretend you’ve forgotten. But you know. As sure as the storms will come. As sure as every lighteyes will lie. There is only one answer. One path. One result.” 3) “There’s a simple path to freedom,” Moash said [...] “The answer is to stop existing, Kal. You’ve always known it, haven’t you?” 4) “There is no fight to be won. We lost the moment we were born into this cursed life of suffering. The sole victory left to us is to choose to end it.” These are lies. Kaladin can protect people. He can do something about the danger they are in. Kaladin did not "forget" that suicide was his only option. He learned better. He knew that there were better options. It's a lie to say that the only path to freedom or release from pain is death. There are many paths to freedom. It's a lie to say there is no fight to be won against the forces of evil. This is a Desolation, it's been fought and won for the side of good many times before. The theme of Moash's entire speech is that life is terrible. That it's a curse to be born. That nothing good can ever come from life because others will always keep you down and destroy anything good that you have. That you can't even be good yourself, because others will do things to you that make you turn bad. Moash believes that he had no possible way of being a good person. No possible way of overcoming the suffering he's faced in his life. He is trying to convince Kaladin to believe the same thing. The Truth: Renarin's truth is to show both Kaladin and Moash that Moash is wrong. He shows that there was a way for Moash to be a good person. There was a way for him to overcome his suffering. It was not a curse to be born. Good can come from life. We know that Moash has freely chosen the wrong path multiple times which made life worse for himself, we've seen it on the page. Moash himself knew that, before giving away his feelings to Odium - he reflects on it in early/mid OB and even late in WoR. And the reason he feels pain from Renarin's vision is because the vision strips away the lies Moash has told himself, it forces Moash to confront the fact that much of his suffering is his own fault and that he still has the ability to change his ways and put in the work to become better. Kaladin himself has made a lot of progress in fighting his own tendency toward negative thinking. When he's doing well, he understands that all the things Moash told him were BS. But when he's struggling, those kinds of thoughts try to pull him back into the dark. Renarin's image was not "counterfactual" - it wasn't just some guy saying "Hey Moash, here's what you would have looked like if you'd become a Windrunner." It was a magical vision of what might have been and what might still be. Renarin used magic to prove Moash wrong and show that his entire premise for everything he says (that he had no way of being any different than he is) was false.