Long Game 78: The Legend of Zelda: The False Heroes

[The Young Pyromancer he/him]

Okay, guys.

I understand the new people voting me. But do ya'll who remember me also remember anything about me? Like, I can't have changed THAT much. 

People are always sus of me D1/2. Every single time. Unless I'm elim, then only half the time. Like, me posting things that seem almost performative is why I'm a bad villager, and a good elim.

[purplewhiteandgold she/her]

18 hours ago, Archer said:

-Still waiting on @purplewhiteandgold to offer their assessment of the Frog Plan. I like frogs over durians so normal people going for the protect don't have to advertise it, but I can see the benefits of both.

Personally, I’m a bit skeptical of the plan. It could go smoothly, but there seems to be a lot of factors that could cause problems or confusion that we should try to avoid.

For one thing, as much as people keep saying that only Link and Zelda, or only Zelda, etc. should request the frog, it’s something that would benefit a fair amount of the roles, and they might want to get their hands on it as soon as possible. Not requesting it could limit how much they can contribute, and publicly saying “I’m going to take it even though I’m not Link or Zelda” could draw unwanted attention. And that’s not even considering that maybe more than one elim could request the frog. Taken all together, there’s a fair amount of people who all have valid reasons to want it, and if they all request it, or even only some of them, it could provide little clarity.

Also, most people seem to be saying that Beedle being elim would be too imbalanced, but there’s no guarantee the elim team hasn’t been made smaller than seems to be expected to accommodate the power that would come from one of them having that role. It’s not a guarantee, and while it’s a small probability, it still is possible, and we shouldn’t be reckless with that. On the slim chance that only Link and/or Zelda requests the frog, it puts them in danger of being discovered. And if it’s a group of people who all request, Beedle could specifically give it to elims to avoid it falling into the hands of someone who could use it against them.

Overall, it seems like a high risk/low reward situation, and while something like that might be helpful in some situations, it seems too early to be messing with this when it could turn out so poorly or give very little information.

 

As for Archer, I’m a bit suspicious of someone who not only presents an idea like that right at the beginning, but goes out of their way to get people to weigh in on it with their opinions. From my perspective, it appeared as though I was supposed to agree or else be potentially accused of having bad intentions with my disagreement, as many people seemed to be agreeing in one way or another. I may be overthinking this, but this is potentially the play of an elim who knows that Beedle is on their side. There’s probably a lot of nuance that I’m missing, especially given my lack of knowledge of both this game and my fellow players, but my gut instinct is to not trust this.

[Illwei]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Illwei-unusual

I-

2 hours ago, Kasimir said:

( @Illwei Don't @ me Eiwlil I did analysis in LG73, even at the start, just not very much. I'm not gonna delve deep, I'm chilling.)

smh it's a gateway drug :P.  go solve in your hole smh.

I can't say there's no Pyro resistance, but I am slightly concerned about it picking up when my vote was a meaningless, naked vote that for some reason No one decided to question?

 

20 minutes ago, purplewhiteandgold said:

Personally, I’m a bit skeptical of the plan. It could go smoothly, but there seems to be a lot of factors that could cause problems or confusion that we should try to avoid.

For one thing, as much as people keep saying that only Link and Zelda, or only Zelda, etc. should request the frog, it’s something that would benefit a fair amount of the roles, and they might want to get their hands on it as soon as possible. Not requesting it could limit how much they can contribute, and publicly saying “I’m going to take it even though I’m not Link or Zelda” could draw unwanted attention. And that’s not even considering that maybe more than one elim could request the frog. Taken all together, there’s a fair amount of people who all have valid reasons to want it, and if they all request it, or even only some of them, it could provide little clarity.

Also, most people seem to be saying that Beedle being elim would be too imbalanced, but there’s no guarantee the elim team hasn’t been made smaller than seems to be expected to accommodate the power that would come from one of them having that role. It’s not a guarantee, and while it’s a small probability, it still is possible, and we shouldn’t be reckless with that. On the slim chance that only Link and/or Zelda requests the frog, it puts them in danger of being discovered. And if it’s a group of people who all request, Beedle could specifically give it to elims to avoid it falling into the hands of someone who could use it against them.

Overall, it seems like a high risk/low reward situation, and while something like that might be helpful in some situations, it seems too early to be messing with this when it could turn out so poorly or give very little information.

 

As for Archer, I’m a bit suspicious of someone who not only presents an idea like that right at the beginning, but goes out of their way to get people to weigh in on it with their opinions. From my perspective, it appeared as though I was supposed to agree or else be potentially accused of having bad intentions with my disagreement, as many people seemed to be agreeing in one way or another. I may be overthinking this, but this is potentially the play of an elim who knows that Beedle is on their side. There’s probably a lot of nuance that I’m missing, especially given my lack of knowledge of both this game and my fellow players, but my gut instinct is to not trust this.

 

I still think the possibility of Beedle being an Elim is extremely low.

do you have previous experience with mafia?

Edited June 24, 2021 by Illwei

[Kasimir he/him]

20 minutes ago, Illwei said:

I can't say there's no Pyro resistance, but I am slightly concerned about it picking up when my vote was a meaningless, naked vote that for some reason No one decided to question?

If you're famous for playing chaotic, you shouldn't find it surprising when no one is particularly interested in taking the bait  

Edited to add: @Illwei - You really miss Quinn don't you  

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kasimir

[Illwei]

Just now, Kasimir said:

If you're famous for playing chaotic, you shouldn't find it surprising when no one is particularly interested in taking the bait  

Starting from here on out I'm going straight. No more chaos. straight up analysis and uhhhhh whatever else normal players do?

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Starting from here on out I'm going straight. No more chaos. straight up analysis and uhhhhh whatever else normal players do?

 

[Illwei]

31 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Edited to add: @Illwei - You really miss Quinn don't you  

Alas ;-;

@Quintessential ;-;; <3

[|TJ| he/him]

Oh boy, I've got 5 pages to catch up. Here I come, multi-quotes-

14 hours ago, Kasimir said:

You were my bro, TJ! You were supposed to bring balance to the thread, not leave it in darkness!

You thought I would actually ignore my own repeated yelling for Village to practice opsec? Man, you can consider any PM from or involving you ignored this game

I knowwww, that's why I didn't say anything. Because I wasn't sure what you were doing :P.

12 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Also, thank you everyone for only adding one page during my sleep time.

Can't say the same smh. Granted I previously checked the Shard before dinner, and then I watched Euros and then fell asleep :P.

11 hours ago, Illwei said:

---[+++]---

Matrim:
 - He Identified that my post wasn't me, which shows to me an investment in actually solving me IMO

I'm slightly suspicious of Mat and the way I read this interaction was e/e, as in he knew it was a copypasta and faked the whole 'this feels different than you' and well it's kinda obvious that you sounded different? There wasn't a need to have an 'investment in solving' you. Idk this reasoning seems iffy.

The reason I'm slightly suspicious on Mat is his reads are almost entirely opposite of mine :P.

Okay coming further along, I don't think Mat/Illwei are e/e, more more likely to be e-er of the two.

12 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Wow, denying our PM like this in front of everyone? I'm hurt, Eiwlil

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 Oh hey, new gif!

Strong village vibes from Ashbringer, and increase in village-ness from Illwei, mainly because I mostly agree with the reads. 

Quote

--[+++]---

Matrim:
 - He Identified that my post wasn't me, which shows to me an investment in actually solving me IMO
Archer:
 - Starting the Zelda theory, Claiming Zelda

---[++]---
Pyro:
 - Claiming Zelda. Pyro would theoretically be more wary of drawing attention to himself, being the first person.

---[+]---
Alv, Tani, (Azmine-less so), anyone else I'm missing who claimed Zelda and isn't Archer or Pyro
 - I'd think at most there's one elim in the pool of everyone who claimed Zelda. too much attention.
Araris, Kas, TUO:
 - doing the whole "fake roleclaiming" thing. Mostly TUO.
Waffles:
 - Pure tone pretty much. Enthusiasm/Excitement. will move down if it doesn't translate into solving.

---[-]---
Steel:
 - Everything feels forced, tonally. not on my kill list yet, giving a pass for the whole...hasn't been on for 2 years thing, needs time to adjust

- Highly disagree on Mat (Drake also gave the same reason what's up with that? Am I the only one who felt Illwei was so obviously fake in the copypasta?)
- Agree on Archer
- I've got null on Pyro and idk why he has accumulated many votes
- Agree on Tani (though not for reasons mentioned, it's mainly for the tone of her posts, so gut). Null on Alv and Azmine.
- Disagree on TUO. On Araris, I'm not sure, Haven't seen such a strong 'strong village' reaction from Araris in D1, oscillating from slight village to slight elim. Null on Kas. SMH, how am I supposed to read Kas without PMs? ;-;
- Your read on Waffles is what makes me wants to village read you. I felt the exact same way about them, and I feel like that's a thing a good villager picks up on.
- Agree on Steel. Also agree with Archer when he said 'cooling down suspicion when pressured, but in an elim-y way' about Steel. 

Village reads - Archer, Ashbringer, Waffles, Drake, Illwei, Tani, (Araris)
Elim reads - TUO, Mat, Steel, (Araris)

Pyro is null for me rn, and Steel, I'm willing to let him change my mind. I'll be on board for TUO or Mat elimination.

[Kasimir he/him]

8 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

SMH, how am I supposed to read Kas without PMs? ;-;

Smh I broke my rule twice by giving you two sets of reads and even added reasoning to the most recent set and you still can't read me?

Damn bro, I'm gonna go back to watching the Euros and forget about this game -.-

8 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

I knowwww, that's why I didn't say anything. Because I wasn't sure what you were doing :P.

Mildly redeemed in my eyes. I will stop ignoring your PMs.

Edited to add: 

8 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

- Highly disagree on Mat (Drake also gave the same reason what's up with that? Am I the only one who felt Illwei was so obviously fake in the copypasta?)

Yeah, no. Stand by what I said on that and TUO - it's (more so the copypasta) more aggro than usual Illwei and honestly the arrogance/smugness oozing off the post got my hackles up so I figured Eiwlil was trying to provoke something. Just wasn't bothering to engage since wrangling Eiwlil or you goes against what I want which is:

Chill. Quiet. Game >>

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kasimir

[Stick. she/her]

I have some catching up to do

i promise I will do it

for some reason I thought I’d wake up to the next turn

[Archer he/him]

If I had a nickel for every time someone said I exist, I'll post thoughts later, I'd have enough to buy some bubble gum. It's cool, it's a big thread. I'd rather people just drop the first thought that comes into their head when they poke at the thread though, because it's actually both easier and more helpful. Seeing where you're at right now is better in my opinion than hearing a lot of hindsight later. For example, Devo's post I was entirely fine with, even if they didn't talk about every single thing and person they could have. 

5 hours ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Okay, guys.

I understand the new people voting me. But do ya'll who remember me also remember anything about me? Like, I can't have changed THAT much. 

People are always sus of me D1/2. Every single time. Unless I'm elim, then only half the time. Like, me posting things that seem almost performative is why I'm a bad villager, and a good elim.

I voted for you because I think you're European(?) and therefore more likely to need to mount a strong defence during the night that I could come back and reflect upon in my morning. I wanted to see how you'd react to genuine pressure, because you're facing a big enough train to be viable. I'm not entirely happy with how you did. What I find suspicious is that you've basically ignored it, and then now leaned into emotional arguments to prevent your exing. This is the first real defensive post you've made, and it's more about old games than this one.

I'll +1 noting Mat being against Steel and Pyro's exes but not being able to explain why they're villagery. 

Edit: speaking of ignoring votes, I just did that. Hi purple! My vote on you was an activity poke, coupled with a direct question to make it easier to ease into engaging. But your thoughts are valid and I respect the vote

Edited June 24, 2021 by Archer

[Steeldancer he/him]

Goodness gracious you guys post a lot. My opinions on stuff havent really changed, even after sleeping on it, so I'm going to sit on my gut read of Kasimir being evil and see where it goes. 

As for the general suspicious read of me, I dont really have much to say about that either. Once upon a time, I might have complained about people thinking I'm evil more, but nowadays I'm more... laid back. So I'll just keep playing (and rambling, apparently) and let you guys form whatever opinion you like about me. 

ALSO I STILL WANT A PM WITH MATRIM DANGIT. Although I suspect at this point i wont get one until later. 

This brings me back to my old philosophical musings upon how to find elims... I never found a tried and true method in my 2 years of playing before my mission. And honestly, there were certain players who were pure genius at sounding completely villager in thread. None of the ones I knew back then are in this game, but I dont know who of the newer players to consider dangerous. I was never one of the best because my playstyle always fluctuated. Hyper active sometimes, completely disinterested other times... and I started rambling again. I'm a ramble-prone person I guess. You guys just get the brunt of it haha. 

This will probably be my last post of the turn. I'll see you guys in the night turn. 

[Stick. she/her]

oKK Im caught up

Here's an updated probably inaccurate vote count for reference:

Pyro (4): Kas, Archer, illwei, Szeth_Pancakes

Kas (2): Steel, Mat

TUO (1): TJ

Steel (1): Drake

Archer (1): purple

TJ (1): Araris

No real thoughts or gut reads on anybody right now except for Archer who I think I'm leaning village atm cuz of the Beedle plan. Everyone else is an elim tentatively until I say otherwise.

Pyro exe is fine I guess but just a note to people saying he's acting too defensive - Im pretty sure Pyro always gets this defensive when leading the exe so that's pretty NAI. Kas exe is fine too - to the people saying it's unlikely he's an elim because he's gonna GM the MR, in my experience playing as an elim takes up a lot less time than as a villager because you dont really have to put in any time or effort into actually solving the game. So he could very well be an elim, it's not off the table or even less likely. I'm not leaning village on Steel but I wouldnt advocate for his exe today cuz he just got back from a huge hiatus so yeah. No thoughts on TUO or TJ as of now, but maybe when/if I reread the thread I will have some.

Normally I would vote D1 but I dont think Im voting today mostly because there's like 2 hours left and also Ill admit I've only skimmed through the second half of the thread and my stomach hurts for unknown reasons

14 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Is the elim team consisting of a Revali a worst-case scenario? Like, there are more dangerous roles for the elims to have imo, and "the elim team contains Revali" is a fairly specific bit of knowledge you aren't really showing any work for.

It's worse than them not having a Revali  

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by _Stick_
typo

[Kasimir he/him]

6 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

Kas exe is fine too - to the people saying it's unlikely he's an elim because he's gonna GM the MR, in my experience playing as an elim takes up a lot less time than as a villager because you dont really have to put in any time or effort into actually solving the game.

This annoys me on two levels:

1. In my very extensive, two-game Elim experience, it takes more energy to be an Elim IMO because you actually have to put effort into the deception whereas Villager just involves you being genuine. (My hate for Elim play is known, what can I say, I just can't let being Elim be defended as great or chill.  )

2. More importantly, I think we've agreed to stop meta-gaming and I would frown on an argument that attempts to exonerate me by appealing to what Striker and Biplet would do knowing I am GMing the MR. I don't sign up for games (or try not to) unless I know I can commit to playing at a minimum level my conscience can deal with, that's all  

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kasimir

[Stick. she/her]

6 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

1. In my very extensive, two-game Elim experience, it takes more energy to be an Elim IMO because you actually have to put effort into the deception whereas Villager just involves you being genuine. (My hate for Elim play is known, what can I say, I just can't let being Elim be defended as great or chill.  )

Agree to disagree  I find myself a lot more relaxed in my elim games. But I do think village games are more fun given that I have the proper time to dedicate to it. 

7 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

More importantly, I think we've agreed to stop meta-gaming and I would frown on an argument that attempts to exonerate me by appealing to what Striker and Biplet would do knowing I am GMing the MR. I don't sign up for games (or try not to) unless I know I can commit to playing at a minimum level my conscience can deal with, that's all  

I agree - Essentially the point that I was trying to make was that using this as a reason for an exe/a defense isn’t valid cuz NAI completely 

[Archer he/him]

Try a spoonful of honey for an upset stomach. Works pretty well. Also, I disagree that Pyro is being defensive. They weren't really, they tried to blow past the votes on them until their last post. But they're a returning player so I'm switching to my backup. Ashbringer didn't want to do the Frog Plan and didn't want to guess the number of vanillas. Seems overly cautious. After that, my list of possible elims goes TUO, Steel, Pyro, Drake, Mat. I looked at Tani but couldn't find much, even though my gut pointed their way. 

Pyro Ashbringer

[Kasimir he/him]

11 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

Agree to disagree  I find myself a lot more relaxed in my elim games. But I do think village games are more fun given that I have the proper time to dedicate to it. 

Spoiler

Edited to add: Not comfortable with existing train margin due to potential for a self-pres vote from Pyro or Rhoam shenanigans.

Edited to add 2: Pyro and Illwei still highest on my suspicions list but I'd be okay with going TUO given what I've already said.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kasimir

[Mat he/him]

8 hours ago, Kasimir said:

I like how no one stating a reason has become no reason 

Mat's definitely rose on my suspicions a bit more given his sudden broadcast of the whole Steel train issue. I can't believe I've missed it but there is no Steel train. Steel was not in danger, one vote does not a train make.

What does that mean? I honestly don't know :P.

Hahahaha this is 100% me not paying attention. Tbh I wasn't updating my vote count and just saw a bunch of people sussing Steel and a few red Steels (which apparently didn't ever cross paths) and assumed there was a train without actually checking. I mean, my thought still stands; I think voting Steel out today would be bad, but still :P.

5 hours ago, |TJ| said:

[1]The reason I'm slightly suspicious on Mat is his reads are almost entirely opposite of mine :P.

[2]Strong village vibes from Ashbringer, and increase in village-ness from Illwei, mainly because I mostly agree with the reads. 

[3]- Highly disagree on Mat (Drake also gave the same reason what's up with that? Am I the only one who felt Illwei was so obviously fake in the copypasta?)

[4]- I've got null on Pyro and idk why he has accumulated many votes

1. What's that have to do with anything :P.
2. Ash is my most village read and I think I mentioned that somewhere earlier? Maybe I imagined posting that idk but here's a read that we share :P.
3. No, I felt Illwei was so obviously fake.... :P.
4. This but a slight vil instead of null (vil both for my previous reason and the quick train itself)

1 hour ago, Archer said:

I'll +1 noting Mat being against Steel and Pyro's exes but not being able to explain why they're villagery. 

It's called a gut read, hi they're my favorite

For Steel it's just a gut read, for Pyro it's the 6 GM PM question thing (an elim would have put it in a doc and it didn't read like a lie to me at all) coupled, again, with the sudden train with nearly no resistance. But also gut because gut.

4 minutes ago, Archer said:

Try a spoonful of honey for an upset stomach. Works pretty well. Also, I disagree that Pyro is being defensive. They weren't really, they tried to blow past the votes on them until their last post. But they're a returning player so I'm switching to my backup. Ashbringer didn't want to do the Frog Plan and didn't want to guess the number of vanillas. Seems overly cautious. After that, my list of possible elims goes TUO, Steel, Pyro, Drake, Mat. I looked at Tani but couldn't find much, even though my gut pointed their way. 

Pyro Ashbringer

Lol this is switching from my second strongest village read to my strongest village read

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

What does that mean? I honestly don't know

People consistently conflate players not verbalising their reasons for voting with a particular train being unreasoned. 2014 Kas would've sused you on the basis of that slip, now I just shrug and sus you for other reasons.

Hey Mipha, if you're out there and Village, I could use some protection tonight, thanks!

[Stick. she/her]

9 minutes ago, Archer said:

Try a spoonful of honey for an upset stomach.

Yess good idea I’ll add some to my tea

9 minutes ago, Archer said:

Ashbringer didn't want to do the Frog Plan and didn't want to guess the number of vanillas. Seems overly cautious.

Assuming a village Beedle, I’d say an elim would either not comment on the frog plan, comment on it without taking a side, or just agree with it in order to blend in with the majority. And as far as the second point goes, I can see reasons for both an elim and a villager refusing to guess the number of vanillas to as to not give away more info than needed. 

[Mat he/him]

7 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

People consistently conflate players not verbalising their reasons for voting with a particular train being unreasoned. 2014 Kas would've sused you on the basis of that slip, now I just shrug and sus you for other reasons.

>> I see now, I really shouldn't say that when I don't voice my specific reasons all the time either huh

So I guess instead of complaining that there's no reason I should ask what they are? That's the intent behind that, is to ask what they are but I phrased it bad :P.

[Stick. she/her]

Vote count: 
Pyro (3): Kas, illwei, Szeth_Pancakes

Kas (2): Steel, Mat

TUO (1): TJ

Steel (1): Drake

Archer (1): purple 

TJ (1): Araris

Ash (1): Archer

The exe is looking ripe for some vote manip

maybe that would be interesting to see? 

[Kasimir he/him]

On the one hand, I'm not the lead train, just the second one. Given Rhoam, a likely impending self-pres from Pyro, and the potential for last minute pulling off from Eiwlil or vote hoppers, I think I'm going to have to do this. I don't want to be doing this fifteen minutes to rollover so here goes.

A player with a better risk appetite or even a more skilled player like Wyrm could likely finesse this. Unfortunately, Village, it looks like you've just got me. Gg us.

Sorry @Archer but I'm not actually a Postman and I only made that mistake of talking about my role once as a Seeker and then Wyrm made me pay for my sins >>

I am, unfortunately, Village Beedle and I can prove it at nightfall by telling you what items you asked for. [I mean I assume Kazs is actually Beedle's affiliate...]

I reiterate that I'm happy to move to another train if everyone is dead-set against Pyro and I would prefer to not die as it seems the Village might prefer me alive for the time being.

Village Mipha, if you're out there, reiterating request for protection come Nightfall unless you think you know who Link or Zelda are.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kasimir
I can't spell apparently

[Mat he/him]

Araris

[Stick. she/her]

Oh…

Okay then Pyromancer 

Nice