[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[teknopathetic]

On 5/18/2022 at 10:04 AM, cometaryorbit said:

The main thing I dislike (assuming Herald bodies are really biologically 100% human) is that it makes the whole "Everstorm bypassing the normal Desolation mechanism" thing more confusing.

I don't know if I missed something, but I never thought the Everstorm was confirmed to return the Fused to Roshar 100% by itself with no other steps needed. My understanding was that the Everstorm was a chunk of the Braize-Storm brought over to Roshar, and that the Everstorm would reconnect the Singer's to their identity and maybe return Voidspren for potential use  (maybe - timeline here is off too). However, I never got the impression that Fused could return this way until a Herald had broken. The impression I got was that the Storm was a way of getting back in Roshar, but that there were going to be more steps needed to get the Fused back and to then start using the Everstorm as a Spawn-Point.

Ulim: "It will take something big to restore the minds of the singers around the world. So we’re going to prime the pump, so to speak, with your people. Get them into stormform and pull the big storm over from Shadesmar. Odium thinks it will work, and considering he’s anything but a little god, we are going to do what he says."

Re-Connecting the Singers is not anything to do with ending the Oathpact, as far as I can tell. This needs to be just a step towards something else. It seemed to me that getting the Everstorm on the board would allow for Odium to have soldiers again (sort of like what Mishram was doing). 

Then Odium's plan ends up being a moot point, as something causes Taln to return BEFORE the Everstorm is in the Physical realm. Before is the key part here I think. Taln returning AFTER the Everstorm summonming would mean he Everstom had the ability to call Fused without a broken herald, but since Taln came back BEFORE the Everstorm, we just dont know what is allowing what. 

I think something happened to Chana, and this caused the Everstorm timeline to near match the Oathpact timeline. What actually happened with Chana is hard to say, as it appears a glowing soul was in the Davar house for several years, and then we don't know how long a herald could hide on Braize if the herald's arrival was 100% unexpected. We also don't know what Chana did once she returned to Braize. Since we have Nale defecting, so who knows what Chana has agreed to do now that she is at the mercy of Odium again. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by teknopathetic

[cometaryorbit]

6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I don't know if I missed something, but I never thought the Everstorm was confirmed to return the Fused to Roshar. My understanding was that the Everstorm was a chunk of the Braize-Storm brought over to Roshar

I don't think any of this is really confirmed.

I agree the Everstorm is a piece of the Braize storm, but I took that as meaning that basically a chunk of the voidspren and Fused's prison was dragged over to Roshar - making the imprisonment moot, in terms of protecting Roshar, even if still technically in force. (Since their prison is now also on Roshar.)

12 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Odium's plan ends up being a moot point, as something causes Taln to return BEFORE the Everstorm is in the Physical realm.

Right, but it was probably in place in the Cognitive by then. I took the "too late" comment about Taln to mean that the Desolation was already in some sense in progress before he returned. 

[+Child of Hodor]

3 hours ago, mdross81 said:

This is the best interpretation I’ve seen of how the the weakened Oathpact and the Everstorm intersect. I’m curious what you think of Ishar’s plan to “reset the Oathpact.” Seems like, under your interpretation, “resetting” would have to include finding a way to seal away or get rid of the portion of the Everstorm that has crossed into the Physical Realm on Roshar.

Edited to add additional question for @Child of Hodor

I agree that no Herald needed to break to allow the Fused to come to Roshar via the Everstorm. But what are we to make of Levian being brought back “the old way,” (i.e. directly by Odium) in RoW 116? I’m your view, would a Herald have needed to break to allow for that? Because that was the method that the Oathpact prevented from happening. 

Ishar

I don't know what he has in mind. To reset it without moving the storm back he'd have to key it to something other than the Everstorm. That seems like something they can't do without Honor.

From RoW it sounded like Odium's agents, under Ulim's instruction, literally moved that piece of the Everstorm across the Cognitive Realm the hard way. They, like, walked it over and it took months. Maybe Daliinar can do a big clap opening a perpendicularity that sends the Everstorm back to the Cognitive on Roshar and then someone can walk it back to Braize like it's a dog.   

I don't think the Oathpact will go back to the way it was before. I think Dalinar becomes both Herald and Honor, so he's both parties of the Oathpact and he modifies it to trap Odium.As long as Dalinar stays on Braize Taravangian has to stay. So it's Dalinar and Taravangian stuck on Braize together indefinitely. It would be a nice call back to their last meeting in RoW where Dalinar was like "I hope we get to sit and chat again someday". I talk about it here: 

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/107059-discuss-the-stormlight-5-prologue-here/?do=findComment&comment=1335235

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/107059-discuss-the-stormlight-5-prologue-here/?do=findComment&comment=1335378

Old Way

The Oathpact doesn't necessarily prevent the Fused from getting new bodies it keeps them where the Everstorm is. It had only ever been on Braize and there are no suitable bodies for them to inhabit there. Odium could have modified some Fused to inhabit the stone surface of Braize (Thunderclasts) and they could run around on Braize, but that doesn't help them conquer Roshar except it allows them to capture and torture Heralds. Once the Heralds allowed them to leave they could get bodies on Roshar. 

Now that part of the Everstorm is in the physical realm of Roshar Odium can stuff a Fused in a body on Roshar if he wants even with no new broken Heralds. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Child of Hodor

[Maxpowers6]

Someone who knows more than me might have a good answer but has anyone suggested the Shallan may actually be Chanarach the herald and that personality is still just buried in her.  

[teknopathetic]

21 hours ago, Maxpowers6 said:

Someone who knows more than me might have a good answer but has anyone suggested the Shallan may actually be Chanarach the herald and that personality is still just buried in her.  

Also a possibility as well for sure. We know the process for Herlads to have children is non-typical, so that opens the door to a lot. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Duxredux]

23 hours ago, Maxpowers6 said:

Someone who knows more than me might have a good answer but has anyone suggested the Shallan may actually be Chanarach the herald and that personality is still just buried in her.  

Probably not, unless something you can somehow work it into this WoB, which would make things far, far more complicated to line up. Worth asking though I'd say, considering how convoluted this is looking to get.

Quote

Questioner

Is Shallan's father her actual father?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah! People asked if her mother were her mother. No one's asked yet if her father were her father... Yes, it was her father. Yes, I will give you that, yes. Her mother and father as presented in the stories were actually her mother and father.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Duxredux
added another thought

[Kered]

I just read through this whole topic and I haven't seen this posted yet. If I missed it, i'll edit out this and apologies in advance!

Was re-listening to RoW for the first time after reading about this theory and the SA5 Prolouge and I heard this:

Chapter 4, RoW, when Shallan is infiltrating the Sons of Honor. 

Quote

A figure at the front spoke first, his voice deep and resonant. “Chanasha Hasareh, you have a fine and reputable name. After the legacy of Chanaranach’Elin, Herald of the Common Man. Do you truly wish for their return?”

 

[cometaryorbit]

My biggest problem with this theory - and I agree it is looking likelier than it used to - remains that Cognitive Shadows having children is, while possible, supposed to be difficult/weird and Shallan has several siblings. If she were an only child I'd be fully on board with the theory.

[Fezzik]

Yeah, but @cometaryorbit, maybe it is weird/difficult to figure out, but once Chana figured out how to do it, she could have kids consistently.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, possibly. I was kind of thinking that it would be a permanent loss of Investiture or a bit of 'soul' from the Cognitive Shadow due to people with the Royal Locks having 'a fragment of a Divine Breath', but maybe I'm misreading that, or maybe Heralds work differently from Returned.

[teknopathetic]

 

On 2022-07-31 at 5:09 PM, Fezzik said:

Yeah, but @cometaryorbit, maybe it is weird/difficult to figure out, but once Chana figured out how to do it, she could have kids consistently.

It may also be the case that not every child is equal. Who knows what Chana has to do to even make a child. Maybe Shallan got a little extra for some reason? Or maybe Chana figured things out more and Shallan being the youngest is just more connected to Chana in some way. There is the theory that Chana was trying to create a replacement for herself (that being what Shallan's parents were always arguing about concerning Shallan's future)

Edited August 31, 2022 by teknopathetic

[realSEyOda]

Spoiler

Stormlight 5 Prologue and the Probably-More-Honor-than-Stormfather-until-Shallan-kills-her-mum

Strongly supports this theory

[SpinningSky]

Incredible theory, just read through the topic and I had a blast, congratulations OP and everyone who participated. There are many ifs, but I have few doubts that Chana is Shalan's mother, or "creator" I guess, or least I like to believe it

 

I'm not sure about the relationship of Shalan's mother death and the desolations, though it would make sense for it to be connected, as it makes so much sense in her progression to admit to have caused something that catastrophic, but then again it does seem like the scheme was long going before her.
Here's my take:
She admits to being responsable for the last desolation, thinks it's her 5th, but it doesn't work (failed oath Kaladin style in OB makes a great story beat), the story progresses, until she eventually admits the hardest of truths:
It wasn't actually her fault, none of it

I think this would work in the logic of progression that oaths seem to have, besides, while a bit corny, I find it to be a very sweet character arc.
And it would explain why, while you can be lead to believe they were connected, logic dictated the last desolation was being planned way before her time.

 

I agree with many that the glowing thing that was put back into the safe is important and not just an hallucination, and honestly it doesn't make much sense to me for Shalan's father to put the blade in the safe, why would that be the reaction? 
Besides, if Shallan is a terrified child, wouldn't she dismiss the blade immediatly? (I might be forgetting something here)

Quote

The obvious(ish) explanation is that Chana’s soul is literally trapped in the safe by Lin. Presumably something goes wrong, and she ends up on Braize. We know that it is theoretically possible to trap Herald ‘souls’ in a gemstone like spren, and it’s plausible that the people around Chana had figured this out. Maybe it was even a contingency plan in case of Herald death.

 

I really like this. I can totally see an herald being so terrified of accidentally dying that they carry around a failsafe, a gemstone to trap their soul rather than going back to be tortured.

It's not unlikely to think that the Ghostbloods had some trick up their sleeve to bring her back from the gemstone she gets trapped in. The father would be instructed, in case it happend, to immediatly put the gemstone to safety.

 

Finally, 2 cents on Taln, but this is pure speculation cause I think it'd be cool: He was driven to madness and kept in Braize voluntarily waiting for the right moment fora long time, and released when he was supposed to, cause he still has a part to play in Odium's plan.

Edited September 1, 2022 by SpinningSky

[teknopathetic]

55 minutes ago, SpinningSky said:

I can totally see an herald being so terrified of accidentally dying that they carry around a failsafe, a gemstone to trap their soul rather than going back to be tortured.

It's not unlikely to think that the Ghostbloods had some trick up their sleeve to bring her back from the gemstone she gets trapped in. The father would be instructed, in case it happend, to immediatly put the gemstone to safety.

 

Some other possibioites could be that Chana slowly leaked out of the safe over time. If we take that Shallan says she sees a glowing light coming out of the box and we add was happened to Jezrian in his gem with him leaking out, it stands to reason the box simply delayed Chana from heading to Braize. And since no one has returned to Braize in 4500 years, Chana would have had no way of testing this new device before now, so would not know how well it would work. 

The second option is that someone opened the safe at some point after Shallan left for Karbrandth. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Marabout]

My theory remains…

Heralds pupate in a chrysalis for one year after returning from Braize.

Heralds reproduce by dividing their gemheart or infusing a new one.

Shallan has a gemheart.

Chana is hiding in Shallan as Radiant.

[+sugjesstive]

On 6/14/2022 at 0:37 PM, Duxredux said:

Questioner

Is Shallan's father her actual father?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah! People asked if her mother were her mother. No one's asked yet if her father were her father... Yes, it was her father. Yes, I will give you that, yes. Her mother and father as presented in the stories were actually her mother and father.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

On 7/31/2022 at 3:13 PM, cometaryorbit said:

My biggest problem with this theory - and I agree it is looking likelier than it used to - remains that Cognitive Shadows having children is, while possible, supposed to be difficult/weird and Shallan has several siblings. If she were an only child I'd be fully on board with the theory.

WAIT — Do we know whether Shallan's siblings are all biologically related to both her mother AND father?

(What if her siblings are all half-siblings?)

[Humble_Knight]

I kinda like the idea that Chana was keeping Mishram in the safe. It would explain the presence of an unmade, Ms I-can-see-into-the-cognitive Davar would probably see it as a glowing light, despite the safe, and it gives a reason for her to be just hanging out in rural Jah Keved

[Firesong]

Something to add, is how oddly Brandon reacted to the question this year. 

Quote

Questioner

Was Shallan's mom a Herald?

Brandon Sanderson

What would make you ask that? The chat, why would they ask that? The Stormfather said that the Heralds-- that that's impossible.

Very facetious and sarcastic and such, seems that it might actually be the case. He has RAFO'd it before, but this is the most of a response we got. Maybe he might have accidently given more credence to the theory via a joke. 

[teknopathetic]

18 hours ago, Firesong said:

Something to add, is how oddly Brandon reacted to the question this year. 

Very facetious and sarcastic and such, seems that it might actually be the case. He has RAFO'd it before, but this is the most of a response we got. Maybe he might have accidently given more credence to the theory via a joke. 

It does seem like he is aware of the theory enough to make jokes about it. It also seems quite cheeky about the Stormfaker/Stormfather in my opinion. 

[22Syl]

(This is my first time here and I have also read the books in a different language, so please bear with me.)

I also think this makes sense. 

Another reason why I support this theory is Taln's actions when he returned. After the Oathpact was broken, the different heralds went their separate ways and mostly kept to themselves. For example, it's only in Oathbringer or RoW that they realized that the 'crazy' person who ruled in Tukar is actually Ishar. So if Taln did break down, why would the first thing he would do is alert people that another Desolation is coming?

I mean, if the heralds simply go to Braize when killed, then they can just make sure they keep a low profile and don't get drafted into war, which is what most of them did. If they know about a Desolation but are terrified then they can just keep quiet to themselves and make sure they are in a safe place. But Taln does the opposite. He tells people - and not just random people, he goes to where the Althei king and highprinces at - his name and who he is, he warns them and is cooperative with them as much as he can (with him losing his mind). He literally makes it known to everyone, and obviously as a herald he is considered an important role in a Desolation, in one way or another. 

Basically, he doesn't act like a person who got broken in Braize and is terrified of ever coming back. So, it makes sense that another herald - Chana - was the one who broke it. When realizing her own daughter is a surge-binder she got terrified, and with extremely bad PTSD from the past and slowly losing her mind, she acted in a way that would make young Shallan who doesn't know what's happening, to act like she did. When returning to Braize, Chana couldn't take it at all. I mean, she already couldn't do it 4500 years prior, so now she can't go through it again. She breaks, and so another Desolation begins, and Taln acts like he did in the past - warned people to get ready for it.

(English isn't my first language and again, I read all of the books in a different language yet the information I can find about the Cosmere is only in English, so I'm still trying to understand it all, even without the language difference. So please, be kind with me.)

Edited May 6, 2023 by 22Syl
Typos

[JohnnyKaizen]

On 2/2/2021 at 2:14 PM, teknopathetic said:

The Cryptics find out that one of the heralds has children  or they discover a weird child who stands-out and is similar to the child of a Returned.

This is the first time I've read/heard of this theory/series of facts, and this line screamed out at me. Yes, obviously Lightweavers can change their appearance including hair color..but what if Shallan's hair changes between persona's isn't due to her lightweaving, but is because she has the inborn ability to change it, in the same way the royal family of Idris' hair changes? Attention is drawn to her hair changing color a lot. And now that I think about it..doesn't her hair bleed to different colors around Adolin and Kaladin without her puffing out stormlight to change it?

[teknopathetic]

19 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

This is the first time I've read/heard of this theory/series of facts, and this line screamed out at me. Yes, obviously Lightweavers can change their appearance including hair color..but what if Shallan's hair changes between persona's isn't due to her lightweaving, but is because she has the inborn ability to change it, in the same way the royal family of Idris' hair changes? Attention is drawn to her hair changing color a lot. And now that I think about it..doesn't her hair bleed to different colors around Adolin and Kaladin without her puffing out stormlight to change it?

Well, as far as we know the children of returned cannot change their appearance unless they are directly in the line of succession for the throne and are therefor connected to the royal locks ability. 

But the Royal locks thing is weird as hell, so who knows. Or maybe Shallan is closer to a returned than to the child of a returned. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by teknopathetic

[First of the Dun]

Really enjoy this theory, an appreciated all the references and thought that went into it. I very much like the idea that Chan might show up as a part of Shallan’s final(?) revelation, perhaps allowing her to integrate Radiant.

 

Nice work!

Edited September 22, 2023 by First of the Dun
Typo

[Deathfuzz]

On 6/24/2023 at 10:24 AM, teknopathetic said:

Well, as far as we know the children of returned cannot change their appearance unless they are directly in the line of succession for the throne and are therefor connected to the royal locks ability. 

But the Royal locks thing is weird as hell, so who knows.

Since the appearance of Returned is based on perception, I always assumed that the line of succession restriction only applies because they believe it works that way.

If Shallan has similar abilities she might be able to unconsciously change her hair color because she both believes that its possible to change with lightweaving, and because she had a habit of lightweaving without realizing it previously.

[Immortal Platypus]

On 6/23/2023 at 1:31 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

This is the first time I've read/heard of this theory/series of facts, and this line screamed out at me. Yes, obviously Lightweavers can change their appearance including hair color..but what if Shallan's hair changes between persona's isn't due to her lightweaving, but is because she has the inborn ability to change it, in the same way the royal family of Idris' hair changes? Attention is drawn to her hair changing color a lot. And now that I think about it..doesn't her hair bleed to different colors around Adolin and Kaladin without her puffing out stormlight to change it?

does anyone remember if her hair color changes while they're in shadesmar? I don't remember, but I want to say it does...