dannnex male Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 @A Joe in the Bush You might find these exchanges from the mega Roshar Doc funny (I'm assuming you're the Joe in question. =P) Quote I am a trustworthy person and you should tell me everything about your PMs. Why of course! This doesn’t raise any red flags at all! =) thats a joe style smiley. Quote I wonder if Weasel is Striker… pafo =P another Joe style emoticon :thonk: oe? Definitely not Striker Weasel going in my Joe pile. Quote You or Os sound like decent Joe guesses. Oh huh ostrich? Huh. huh. I see that. Plus, the defenestration. Me, pretending I know who Joe is: Yes, definitely. *narrows eyes* My biggest thought with joe rn is the “=P” “=)” which I’ve only seen joe use, and it’s not a...lot of evidence. Quote You’re still alive meaning ur australian time or whatnot ur staying in my Hael pile. or...I guess you could be Bard as well. ....or...anyone with a terrible sleep schedule. *winks* Your terrible sleep schedule at least technically makes sense. I mean, depends on my time zone doesn’t it? *narrows eyes* no you’re not gonna pull a Tj on me ur Joe you can’t fake me out you can’t make me double guess myself like this no. I’m debating between continuing saying that I have no idea who Joe is and going and researching Joe so that I can intentionally act like him. No no no you can’t say things like that no no no. I will not second guess. Quote ɢᴏᴛ ᴀɴʏ ꜱᴏɴɢ ʀᴇᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴅᴀᴛɪᴏɴꜱ? *narrows eyes* >> Hey, I do got some song recommendations! How about! We all hop in a vc call! Yeah! 100% legal! And the- ʏᴏᴜ ꜱᴜʀᴇ ʏᴏᴜ ᴡᴏɴ’ᴛ ᴊᴜꜱᴛ ꜱᴜɢɢᴇꜱᴛ ᴀɴʏ ᴍᴜꜱɪᴄ ʜᴇʀᴇ? What type of music you listen to? I recommend anything with bagpipes. >> I recommend *insert joe’s favorite music here* See why would Joe know...why would joe know quinn enough to think he could Identify her? Why would joe know Fadran jumping in everywhere?...idk, you’re the one that thinks I’m Joe XD Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Yeah, I am the one to think you’re joe. But I don’t know- I don’t think- hm. You’re staying in my joe pile. If that’s what you think :eyes: *glares* << No see you said you’re on mobile all the time why- why would- joe wouldn’t- so- (sigh) I am having way too much fun. Too much fun tormenting me? Sounds like a Joe thing :thonk: oh absolutely. Sounds exactly like him. Or me. ᴀɴʏᴡᴀʏ, ᴊᴏᴇ’ꜱ ᴀɴ ᴇᴀꜱʏ ᴄʟᴀɪᴍ. ᴇᴠᴇʀʏᴏɴᴇ ɪꜱ ᴊᴏᴇ. Quote No you- no you don’t get to say things like that. No. ʟɪᴋᴇ ɪ ꜱᴀɪᴅ. ᴡᴇ’ʀᴇ ᴀʟʟ ᴊᴏᴇ. I should find Joe after this is over, apparently we are very similar. ._. In Emoticons at least. Quote Which shards died this cycle again? ᴠᴀʟᴏʀ, ᴄᴜʟᴛɪᴠᴀᴛɪᴏɴ, ʜᴏɴᴏʀ. ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴇ ʟᴀᴛᴇʀ ᴛᴏ ʙᴇɪɴɢ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇᴅ ᴇɴᴛɪʀᴇʟʏ. Sigh. no u in honor. Sigh. (hah yall thought I was about to talk about the game you be wrong) Yep, Valour, Cultivautuioin, and Huouounour died. Ɪᴛ ɪꜱ ᴊᴏᴇ! -_-. I will not be bamboozled no more not here now now not any day good sir you are joe and this green guy agrees with me. Well this Joe guy seems like a rather fine Ol chap. Of course you’d say that :P. :hypereyes: I really just want the game to be over now so I can laugh at you when it’s revealed I’m not Joe. XD >> this is supposed to be some sort of gaslighting huh well I won’t stand for it! Would you like a chair then? I will not sit for it, either! I’m trying to think if there is any way I could prove that I’m not Joe, but at this point you’re tunneling so hard I don’t think there is. Hrmmmmmmmmmmm I almost wish I actually was Joe, because then these would be some mad gaslighting tactics. Embrace the Joe. Quote No, I’m Joe remember? Aghhhh who r u Things I know about the weasel: Gets on late night PST Uses = in emojis for eyes Knows Quinn Knows Illwei Is devilishly handsome ah yes. How could I forget. Knows Ventyl Apparently doesn’t know kas???? This isn’t actually weird considering how infrequently Kas plays. But kas exists and other people know them Does he though. :eyes: Knows Striker Pretending to know Danex Isn’t it Dannex? See that’s how i know u fake fan. He changed his name recently AHA YOU FELL FOR IT. Now I know that you knew that. Oh no. yes. I definitely did just fall for your trap. Leaves a lot doesn’t know who i am. Didn’t I think you were Quinn pretending to be Illwei? I think I’m thinking you’re just actually Illwei now… Dude, I didn’t immediately know who you were either...ofc ofc but that helps me know who ppl are? Like ofc you’re not gonna know who I am I mean I haven’t played much with you, so it lets me know it’s someone that I don’t play with much idk idk. Like, Axl or Gecko or whatnot. Not everyone as in everyone, but everyone as in anyone who has played enough w/ me, so- idk. Can’t figure out someone who won’t let me ;-; Claims to be completely on mobile. 1
Illwei Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Furamirionind said: meta thread, as this game will fade but that wont. *thinks in "unpinned"* 4 minutes ago, Dannex said: @A Joe in the Bush You might find these exchanges from the mega Roshar Doc funny (I'm assuming you're the Joe in question. =P) I have never seen you use those emojis before!!! but the main thing thinking Danex was because mobile :P. also WOW someone is reading the Roshar doc???????? :0 Edited January 25, 2021 by Illwei 1
Furamirionind They/Any/All Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 Just now, Illwei said: *thinks in "unpinned"* Well, even with it being unpinned, it's easy to remember to look there vs. a specific game the discussion happened in.... But yeah...
Archer he/him Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 48 minutes ago, Kasimir said: Some of it was less well-intentioned, and I did not appreciate receiving rather aggressive condescension from players like Iguana/Archer just for having a more PM communication heavy playstyle, particularly when they were doing the same thing themselves. I said my initial thoughts in the dead doc, and others have analyzed the game better than I could already, so I'll just respond to this comment. In this game I hooked up with Ruin and Valor through the Shadesmar and spent two days or so pretty much just talking to them making a plan to lure Odium into trying to kill Ruin while Valor was protecting them. (Odium, why didn't you take a shot at Dingo, it would have been so good...) I also ended up talking to NuPru, but beyond that, my PM game was pretty shallow. What I had done however was PM everyone on Shadesmar D2 when I was there, which created the impression that I was a PM Spider. At the time I was fishing for notes, opinions, thoughts, whatever I could analyze. What my PMs got me throughout the game ended up being either role claims or nothing of substance. Anyway, back to D2, Mouse/Kas and I had this PM conversation: Spoiler Mouse: I know who the three neutrals are, as do one or two Villagers, though we'd agreed to keep it quiet for the moment. I also know the Elims know who the neutrals are. / But that seems to imply that if you don't know who the neutrals are and are looking for Autonomy, you're either putting up a show, which is kinda pointless since not all Villagers know the Elims know, or you are a Villager genuinely looking for Autonomy. Iguana: The only ways you could know the elims know who the neutrals are is if the neutrals told everyone who they are, or if Gecko somehow found out. Otherwise knowing they know would be contingent on you knowing who an Elim is, right? / I'm trying to gather information without asking too many questions. I'd rather people stonewall me and everyone else. Once you start expanding your circles of trust, it gets dicey fast. I am concerned about the implications of what you are telling me. Mouse: Which implications? / I'm info-gathering as well. I've tended to stonewall in the past (single-digit, < LG20, but have developed a different playstyle and approach since then.) As you are a marginally higher trust, I've decided to briefly mention my grounds for this revised trust. That being said, if you do suspicious things, naturally I will revise that judgement again. / I'm not interested in telling you anything that could be seriously exploited against the Village at this point on the offchance I'm wrong about you, but if you're an Elim, none of this is news to you, so. Iguana: The biggest implications are that people are being careless with their info and the neutrals are playing both sides, and will likely be successful in doing it. Both concern me. I appreciate your trust, but I am naturally suspicious of anyone with a lot of information. You're either playing the game well, are an Elim, or both. Mouse: I don't really see how the latter can be stopped, without deciding to play hardball. Also, hard to say people are being careless with their info, if the primary people doing so are neutrals, or if it pertains to neutrals. Let me get this straight though. You're going around to a lot of people, PMing them, as you hit up almost everyone in Shadesmar last cycle, probing for thoughts and information. Ideally, if your strategy works, you would have: a lot of information, and you would also be relying on people being careless rather than stonewalling you in PMs or ignoring the PMs outright. / Are you a Villager then? Should I take the fact you are in fact seeking to glean and put information together, such as via interaction with Gorilla, as a sign of suspicion? Villagers gotta solve the game. Elims do have more info and that should rightfully be regarded with suspicion. / But kinda rich to pull that strat and then also tell me about PM safety and Villagers not collecting information. Iguana: I am a villager. And I am gathering information at a decent rate. As I am aware of the risks of trusting heresay and confirming information people present themselves as already knowing when they in fact do not, I am wary. And I intend to stay that way for the time being. Mouse: I appreciate your wariness. And you're a villager in my estimation and from what I hear. But you're also a sanctimonious hypocrite seeking excuses to exempt yourself from the very same strategies you sneer at everyone else for. / And I don't really care about having called you on it. I'm gonna work around you. That's all. We're done here. At the time I took the emotional response as an indicator of OC alignment, and was pleased I'd gotten a solid lead that I proceeded to tunnel until everyone doing reads said that Mouse is village. Kas, I should have apologized earlier for making you upset, but I'll do it now. In hindsight, my comments were based on an incomplete understanding of how PMs are supposed to be used, how neutral factions interact in the game with others, and how you got your information. (You made some very good reads and breakdowns in the game... too good to be unaided by an elim doc or bluffs, I thought). I apologize. I did not mean to be condescending or abrasive to your playstyle. I also apologize more generally for saying people were being careless. Thanks to the GMs. You did good. 2
Ashbringer he/him Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 58 minutes ago, Kasimir said: And @Ashbringer - I actually felt so bad about not being able to help Orlok out I told him that I'd understand if he rescinded the deal on my protection because it didn't feel right to me I was going in on you guys but you guys were restricted from attacking me... But I admit I'm also surprised you all agreed in the first place, considering I wasn't very subtle about hiding my identity. Well 1) I had absolutely no idea who you were as I've only played the Ashyn game with you, and 2) at the time I actually wanted to keep you alive because you were my best PM buddy... until you exposed me and Joe. By that point we had bigger problems. And 3)... I didn't really think I could afford to refuse Orlok. We were about to be down two members, and we needed a way to get at Honor. Which does make it ironic but we didn't know that And... if you have information that leads to an Elim, 95% of the time that info should find its way to the thread. I'm more worried at how quickly that information flowed, which I think is more a mechanics issue than a people issue. 4 minutes ago, Archer said: In this game I hooked up with Ruin and Valor through the Shadesmar and spent two days or so pretty much just talking to them making a plan to lure Odium into trying to kill Ruin while Valor was protecting them. (Odium, why didn't you take a shot at Dingo, it would have been so good...) I think we tried to kill Ruin and mis-guessed... although I was rather worried that hitting Valor was a possibility. That's where Lamentation originated, actually: me potentially getting exed for the Shadesmar kerfuffle after Odium hit Valor and passed the Shard to me, the turn after I had gotten Mercy... On a separate note: @Dannex! @Haelbarde! I've heard a rumor that the Splintered Shard of Ambition is not incredibly tied down to either of you. Would you be interested in donating it to Lamentation's cause? I have Honorblades...
Jo and the Bush all/any Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Dannex said: @A Joe in the Bush You might find these exchanges from the mega Roshar Doc funny (I'm assuming you're the Joe in question. =P) Hahahaha, Everyone is Joe! Those are all quite amusing to read. Thanks!
Elbereth she/her Posted January 25, 2021 Author Posted January 25, 2021 Big post incoming. Surprise. Responses, first: 22 hours ago, Gears said: I'm sure everyone knows my identity since it was revealed to the nexus core [maybe I shouldn't have looked for Bubbles...] but for now, I shall abstain. This was really fun, and thanks to the Game Masters [who I wanted to refer to by another name, but we must remain anonymous, obviously] for running this. It was much less broken than I feared and more exciting than I expected. More relevant thoughts will have to wait for the identity reveal, since my only critiques relate to a core part of my identity, but this game was splendid. If this was less broken than you expected, you had very low expectations indeed. 21 hours ago, Quinn0928 said: I think it's more that anonymity wasn't maintained among the newest generation of players (myself included). I guessed who several people were right off the bat because I've played with them a lot recently. Also. I had a guess for Connie. I assumed she'd be playing, since she usually does. I'm... not sure if I was right though XD It was not just a new player thing. Kas/Burnt/Hael knew each other, several people called Joe correctly, and Araris was fairly obvious from the moment he said he didn't want PMs. 13 hours ago, Araris Valerian said: I do think that being too open with roles PMs can put pressure on the rules/role distribution of a game (which seems to have happened in this game, to some extent). This is possibly a tragedy of the commons situation, where it is fun individually to roleclaim, but if everyone does it, some games start to break. The topic of PMs in general probably deserves a well-thought post in the Meta thread, where I'd be very interested to hear some of the newer players' opinions on them in general. Or perhaps a Google poll like Kas did about what players are looking for in a game. So, this is somewhat true, but in my mind the way to fix this is a game balance issue, not a player issue. If people want to claim all the time, that's fine! Everyone enjoys that - it's not something harmful, in my opinion. So the fix for games like these, where mechanical analysis is so powerful, is to limit PMs. More on this later, probably. 3 hours ago, Gears said: Thanks for the pass. I haven't the slightest idea how I'll be using it considering that I've never actually had an idea to run, let along a non-Sanderson idea. Oh well, I'm sure that I'll think of something eventually. Now, game thoughts: I think that Survival, as it stands, does not have sufficient opposition. No one wanted me dead. If I wanted, I could have claimed D1, asked for an Investiture scan to confirm my alignment, and then been left alone for the rest of the game. Kas mentioned that in a rerun, there would be no factions, and I think that would help, but there needs to be a reason for my death. Either a win-con that demands it [and makes it more desirable than just killing other people], a bonus for doing it [A temp extra life? A bonus to village/relevant faction? A change in game state?], or something. As it was, I lost interest in the game fairly rapidly, especially since I knew the necessary elims right away. [Thanks Gecko/Lotus for telling me your Autonomy suspects and removing Rhino from the list. That made it fairly obvious. [Reasoning as follows: Only way to narrow candidates down that much was worlds. Must have leak on Taldain. Rhino not on list, elim!Rhino, Autonomy!Elephant.] This is not a criticism of anyone's behavior. Merely a note.] This interest drop is mostly my fault, since I could have chatted people up in the docs or something, but I think I would have remained more engaged if I'd had something to do. Survival had no actions and could not be acted upon, and while I understand why, it was just... boring. Once I voted on the requisite people, I was done. Nothing to do, no reason to act except to vote and stay alive. I was basically a vanilla with extra lives. My [probably terrible] ideas: Give Survival some enemies and [maybe] some actions [they can be as weak as you please]. You don't have to use passes on your own games, you know. There are passes that have been sitting around for years - I'd highly encourage everyone to make more non-Sanderson games, and there's pretty good odds someone will have a pass for it! The funny thing to me is, this is with the changes we made to Survival. I agree - Survival has a very hard time staying invested in the game. But in most of the past Shard games, Survival's win condition was literally just "survive". Which is... even worse. I like the addition we made of voting on both teams this game, though that became moot for you very early on when you got in contact with the neutrals and the neutrals had contact with the elims so you didn't have to do any work to figure out who to vote on. But I think you're right that we need more there. And, in particular, the 'survival cannot be targeted by non-kill actions' is something that we ported over from previous games and we shouldn't have kept that bit. All that aside - ideas would be appreciated, here! If anyone has thoughts on different win conditions for Survival, why anyone would want to kill them, or investment/etc actions that Survival could have, please share. 2 hours ago, Quinn0928 said: This probably belongs with the previous point, but not only were the critiques harsher, they were more universal. My experience with dead docs is that if I screw up somehow, someone whom it affected strongly will point it out vocally, a few others will agree, and then discussion kinda moves on. That didn't happen here. Everyone had a strong opinion, most of them negative. That's a lot to deal with at the end of a game, and if I were Illwei or Ventyl then reading what was said about me would leave a sour taste in my mouth and I probably would reevaluate the whole game, not just in an "okay I should have done things differently" kind of way but a "why did I play this game in the first place" or an "I don't want to play an AN again" kind of way. I think this is a good point, and something I'll be watching for in future docs. It reminds me a lot of when someone is doing something mildly annoying and not harmful (see, in particular, Coda and TGK in LG64) - the problem was that everyone said they didn't really like the thing but it was fine, and all of those voices added up felt like a lot harsher criticism than anyone ever intended. 2 hours ago, Ventyl said: @little wilson, so wait, are we all able to write things to add to the write-up? Even if we died? If so, I’d like to add some last thoughts from Niru Drash. We can certainly edit stuff into the writeup, but you're also perfectly welcome to just add your part of the story here in thread. 2 hours ago, Ashbringer said: I did like the fact Kas explained to me what claims he had with a nice spreadsheet, even if I was doomed anyway. But it still feels... I don't know. The fact that most Shards were invincible until Odium's release (contrary to popular belief, we had no kills besides Odium's and the one item from Invention) combined with openness of PMs made it really easy for Shards to claim, and so they did, making the game almost mechanically solvable from N3. Whether that's a problem with the rules of Shard games or a problem with general SE rules I'm not sure, but I feel like more should be done (or done earlier) to involve people or at least explain what was going on behind the scenes. I think you've summarized the mechanical breaks in this game pretty well right there. Which leads into... PROBLEMS & SOLUTIONS 1 - THE BIG STUFF Problem 1: Odium/Honor. This is something we realized early on was a serious problem for the elims, and is one of the (several) reasons they fared poorly this game. The elims had a lot of vote manipulation, but no kill outside Odium's powers and no way to find Honor. And so everyone avoided the Rosharan system like the plague, and Odium had 1-2 people to choose from, total. This is, obviously, not great. Solution: Confine Honor to Roshar. This is also, conveniently, the problem with the simplest solution - make sure Honor can't leave the Rosharan system, and the dynamics of the game change dramatically. People flock to Roshar to provide cover for Honor, Odium always has a chance to hit them, and everything makes much more sense. Problem 2: Open PMs. Very open PMs. As Araris mentioned earlier, if too much information gets passed around and collected, games start to break. That's more true the more complicated a game is, in general. There are a couple other things that made this game even worse for it (Shards being so easy to prove and only being able to invest in the relatively small number of non-Shards), too. Essentially, it comes down to action tracking. The suspect pool at end game was narrowed down to so few people because only those people could have put in a particular kill - if not for that mechanical analysis, I expect Devotary would've been pretty solidly village trust, and was probably at the top of that pool as it was. But when you've got five people and the ability to coordinate roleblocks and scans, there's only so much you can do. This is something we saw even before Prudence was re-made, with Shadesmar D2. I looked at the PMs going around there and already I could tell 'this is a problem, the elims are going to go down if this keeps up' because mechanical analysis is so powerful in this game. And then NuPru came along, when we'd been planning for a Prudence more like Elandera's and hadn't expected one that just granted practically everything. And things broke. And that's not a problem player-side - I personally love mechanical analysis and love complex games for that reason. But the fact that it was so easy in this game is a balance problem. Solution: Very limited PMs. Now, I don't know exactly how limited. This game was so one-sided because none of the elims got in the PM game and there were some very strong village PMers, and so they didn't have a chance to muck up any of the analysis. But even so, I wouldn't want to give the option for PMs to be this open again. I personally might go as far as taking out Shadesmar and Prudence's Shardic, honestly, but there are ways to limit it that would probably work. (Specifically, you get one on-world and one off-world PM on Shadesmar, and Prudence can only open X PMs per cycle / they're temporary / maybe has less choice over which of the requested ones to open?) Just don't leave it the way it is. Problem 3: Too few non-Shards and too much provability. There were 11 non-Shards starting the game, vs 16 Shards. That ratio is, shall we say, non-ideal - and while we did make ways for the Shards to pass out of the game, that wasn't a guarantee and maybe half the time the Shard stays in. Which lowers the pool of non-Shards even further. This is a problem because it's annoying for the Shards involved, but it's a particular problem because it makes Odium's investee much easier to track down. The second half, the provability, is that claims were very, very easy to prove for almost every Shard. Solution: Fewer shards, scans, and distinctiveness. Wilson already addressed this in part - have fewer scans, make the investiture actions less unique, and give less information to the receiving player (ie you don't know which Shard invested in you, you just see the effect). I think we should probably do that, but think about going further as well - maybe investments work on anyone, including other Shards, so that the mechanical analysis can't just be split into two categories re: kills anymore. Straw suggested taking away investiture actions altogether, and while I don't think we should do that (since those are specifically designed to make non-Shards feel important/useful, which was a big problem in LG10), but... I don't know. This one might take a fairly substantial game redesign to address properly, is what I'm saying. PROBLEMS & SOLUTIONS 2 - THE LITTLE STUFF There were a lot of smaller balance problems this game. I'm going to list out as many of them as I can remember down below, for the benefit of future GMs, but there will be more that I'm forgetting. If you were affected by something like this, please mention it so it can get fixed if this is rerun! Autonomy and Ruin are both very easily found because they have to take their actions on the planet where they currently are. In Autonomy's case, I'd recommend just letting them target any planet they want; this could also work for Ruin but consider other options. One is treat it kind of like Mountainous Arson, in that you can tag planets and then have a finite number of times where you blow up everything you've tagged. There's some funky rulings around Mercy's redirect and Shard passing that aren't internally consistent. Shard passing more general could use a look - maybe have it so that someone holding two Shards can use neither until one is gone? Also, probably make it so that you can't choose which player gets the Shard you drop - it goes to the last successful investee ala death. Survival, as mentioned above. Take away the no-targeting thing, but ideally also give some actions / reason for engagement with the game. Currently surviving isn't difficult because no one wants to kill them. Cultivation being temporary, as Wilson mentioned. I'm particularly concerned about a potential Cultivation/Valor synergy that could be very bad for the elims. (Making Valor unable to be unsplintered might also be a good idea.) Preservation's investment action either shouldn't be able to target the same player on consecutive cycles or can't target during the day. The current situation makes their investment basically a more powerful Mercy, which thankfully wasn't taken advantage of but is definitely a break. Autonomy should be able to roleblock during the day, probably. Everyone else can. Possibly take away Whimsy's Forger role. That's a bit powerful. (Especially if there's a Forger currently dead.) Devotion's investment and Roshar's ability should be switched. Currently Roshar recharges all items and Devotion recharges one, which makes Devotion a lot less powerful than Roshar. That's not great. This isn't a change based on brokenness so much as simplification, but we're probably going to take out charges for minor roles. As is, they feel very similar to items. It's partly because of how free PMs were that the neutrals had such an easy time, but I think there's still room for improvement on their win-cons to make them a little more engaged in the game. (See also 'half neutrals' below.) BIG ALTERATIONS There are several ideas we've thought up throughout this game that would make really cool/interesting games! Those are distinct enough from the current ruleset that it'd essentially be creating and balancing a whole new game, which is why I'm listing them separately, but I think they're very cool. All Shards no vanilla - A MR or LG that's capped to 16 players, so everyone gets to be a Shard and you don't have to worry about all the non-Shard issues. You'd be able to simplify the current rules significantly (maybe take out investment actions, maybe take out roles and only have items, etc. Half neutrals - I personally really like this one, though I'm not sure how exactly it'd shake out. Essentially, have a lot more neutral Shards (I know we were thinking Whimsy and Ruin would be great neutrals in particular), but also give them a faction alignment. So they can win by filling their personal win condition or the group's. (Or make them have to do both? I'm not sure which would do better - the complicating factor to all of this is how faction game ethics/norms aren't really well-set and drama tends to ensue.) This would make for an awful lot less "just claim to both sides and work with them" at least, which I'd prefer. SE D&D part II - Run a Shard game like LG49! I noticed in this game that there were a lot of people who wanted to just do chaos and felt constrained by their win conditions. So give people a playground in which to just have fun with Shards and their friends. Two caveats to this: 1) LG49 was hell to run, and 2) it'd have to be much more built out than LG49 was at the game's start. Wilson and Orlok and I managed, because we've run a lot of games between us and are good at balance, but I wouldn't want to it again, and wouldn't trust most people with that kind of responsibility. But hey, it could be really fun! Oh, and because I don't really know where to put it, I also think that Shard games shouldn't be anonymous, most complex games should avoid being anonymous unless it's important to the fundamental structure of the game, and AGs need to be the standard LG1 ruleset from now on. Shard games can happen some other time. Okay, so I wanted to end with the good stuff but 1) this is really long and 2) I've got to do other stuff, so I'll end here for the moment. See you all later, and please remember to add any small breaks you found! 11
Elandera she/her Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) Spoiler 5 hours ago, Quinn0928 said: *rubs eyes* okay so I was essentially a spectator this game, and didn't pay much attention to it after the first few cycles, so I originally thought I didn't have any opinions about what happened in it. And I guess I don't as to what happened in the game, but as someone whose primary interaction with the game was through the spec doc, I would like to say this: The problems with this game were just as present in the spec doc as in the game itself. A lot of the doc was devoted to discussions, often heated ones, of the players in the game. Now, the discussions part was normal, but I found some of it problematic for a couple of reasons. The people in the dead doc were often judging others without looking at things from their perspective, or without having all the information, and they were doing it in a space where the people they were talking about couldn't see the comments or respond to them. That's how dead docs always work, I know, but it was worse than usual this game. That's likely due to the second thing. Probably because of the additional temporary layers of perceived anonymity, people were far harsher than in typical dead docs. I've had some less than kind things said about me in dead docs before; usually they were at least somewhat merited but they still hurt to read, were far stronger than was actually needed to convince me I'd made mistakes, and they still weren't nearly as bad as what I saw in this dead doc. This probably belongs with the previous point, but not only were the critiques harsher, they were more universal. My experience with dead docs is that if I screw up somehow, someone whom it affected strongly will point it out vocally, a few others will agree, and then discussion kinda moves on. That didn't happen here. Everyone had a strong opinion, most of them negative. That's a lot to deal with at the end of a game, and if I were Illwei or Ventyl then reading what was said about me would leave a sour taste in my mouth and I probably would reevaluate the whole game, not just in an "okay I should have done things differently" kind of way but a "why did I play this game in the first place" or an "I don't want to play an AN again" kind of way. Look, saying things in the dead doc for future players to reflect on in the future is all well and good, but it doesn't change anything about what's happening here and now. If there's a serious problem with how someone's playing the game, if the way they're playing is ruining the game for you or anyone else, that should be brought up with them first. Tone doesn't carry over text very well, so it's easy for someone to be joking or just having fun and someone to take it as harsh or insulting or to be hurt by it. And that's not something that should garner the reactions of a. ignoring it or b. voting the person in question off, at least not without first letting them know what's going on and giving them a chance to respond to it. Obviously dead players can't do that, but the GMs, the IM, and the living players can and they should. Some of this has already been said before, but some of it hasn't so I wanted to put it out there. And honestly, after this game I'm not sure I want to play another AN either. I didn't survive past D1 this game, but I can't help wondering what I would have found waiting for me in the dead doc if I had. This is a very good point, Quinn. I appreciate you bringing it up. I know I might have seemed harsh on @Illwei in some of my comments and for that I apologize. It was from the standpoint of OG!Pru (Tru!Pru?) to Nu!Pru and how I viewed what PM gifting should be, which was my own personal (and less PM friendly) standpoint. Not the best viewpoint, since I should have looked at it from Nu!Pru's viewpoint. Me wanting the Shard back, realistically, has nothing to do with how Illwei played and completely based on the fact I want a Shard and like the idea of Prudence as a Shard in general. I will also come a little to the defense of GMs in this case (not to justify, but to explain). It's difficult to watch a game and some player's actions without getting frustrated and vocal about it. Creating and running a game is a lot of work. It's more than just thinking of fun rules and putting them together, then seeing where the chips fall. There's a lot of thought that goes into balance, rules, roles, distributions, alignments, etc. It's impossible to think of all potential outcomes, though we try, and then try to balance towards all of those at once. Players, though, are the eternal wrench in the works. It's difficult to sit back and watch a player taking actions that is directly contradictory to their own win-con, or that we know is harmful to other players, and not be frustrated because we can see the full avalanching impact of those choices. And unfortunately, what GMs reveal in the dead doc is a lot of what drives the conversation, since they are the ones privy to the conversations that happen outside the thread. Yes, GMs absolutely need to keep in mind the viewpoint of the players making those choices (I had to be reminded of that in the last game I ran), but players should also be considering how their choices impact the rest of the game. Everyone understands a vote or kill. Those aren't things we hold grudges over. It's the other things that didn't have to happen but did and ended up making the game worse in some way that cause the most problems. Those are the things we need to carefully consider before moving forward. Hopefully that all made sense. Edited January 25, 2021 by Elandera 7
Araris Valerian he/him Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, Elbereth said: So, this is somewhat true, but in my mind the way to fix this is a game balance issue, not a player issue. If people want to claim all the time, that's fine! Everyone enjoys that - it's not something harmful, in my opinion. So the fix for games like these, where mechanical analysis is so powerful, is to limit PMs. More on this later, probably. I agree with you here. I think what I was trying to drive at is there is a little less room for flexibility in the rules given the current PM meta. It's not a bad thing, just something we need to be aware of when creating games and approving rules. I think it would be fun to try and design a game that is based on roleclaims to take advantage of how a lot of the community right now enjoys playing.
Furamirionind They/Any/All Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 Going back to what I said in the dead doc, I think just about every issue this game can be solved with better communication... and perhaps a grievance system (used by players, gms, and ims) would help facilitate this. If any of the people involved had talked to anyone else, the problem would have been minimal. 5
Mist she/her Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 I agree that communication would be helpful. I'm scared, I'm a Splinter of Dominion and Odium.
Quintessential she/her Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said: I agree with you here. I think what I was trying to drive at is there is a little less room for flexibility in the rules given the current PM meta. It's not a bad thing, just something we need to be aware of when creating games and approving rules. I think it would be fun to try and design a game that is based on roleclaims to take advantage of how a lot of the community right now enjoys playing. I mean... idk if this is exactly what you have in mind but the basic mechanic for my Awakeners game kinda addresses this. It's not so much based on roleclaims, since at the start no one has a role, but more on collaborating through PMs. . It... needs a lot of work though lol 14 minutes ago, Elandera said: Hopefully that all made sense. Yes, it did. Having never GMd before that side of things was and is difficult for me to see, especially as compared to the frustrations players have voiced, which I... relate to, a lot. But I guess that means I ended up exhibiting one of the things I called out in that post, not looking at things through the eyes of others. So it's nice to have someone balance that out with the GM perspective 1
Gears Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Elbereth said: All that aside - ideas would be appreciated, here! If anyone has thoughts on different win conditions for Survival, why anyone would want to kill them, or investment/etc actions that Survival could have, please share. Possible kill benefits: Person/s who strike the killing blow get a protect/extra life/something along those lines. Killing Survival does something to the game state that is vaguely interesting [maybe ties kill all or something like that]. A faction/Shard has the specific win-con of killing Survival [perhaps if Ruin becomes a Neutral?] Possible Investment actions: 1 extra life [is that too broken? With Investing potentially happening at the rate of 1/cycle... Probably too broken. A temp extra life for 1 cycle? Basically, 1 protect that works on the X too?] Possible Shardic actions: Will not die for 1 turn/cycle [1 use? Depending on expected game length] EDIT: I had a terrible idea for a different win-con. Instead of Survival wanting to live, what if Survival wanted to be the last one alive? Survival would need a kill at the very least, but I think it would be interesting. 1 hour ago, Furamirionind said: Going back to what I said in the dead doc, I think just about every issue this game can be solved with better communication... and perhaps a grievance system (used by players, gms, and ims) would help facilitate this. If any of the people involved had talked to anyone else, the problem would have been minimal. I concur. Somewhat tangential thought [that was originally a continuation of my concurrence but then I quickly realised that it was most definitely not a part of that bit]: I was recently contemplating the value of a safeword in SE [well, the original thought was about life in general, but cross-apply it to SE]. A succinct way of saying, "I am not enjoying this, I am not having fun, I want out". Alternatively, we could just say that we aren't having fun anymore, which mostly accomplishes the same thing. This would have to be universally respected and not abused as a get-out-of-jail-free card whenever something doesn't go your way, but I think it could help with communication, at least a little. In essence, SE is just an elaborate murder roleplay, so maybe what works there might help with our communication problems. [Please don't make jokes about my references to things worthy of brain bleach.] Edited January 25, 2021 by Gears 2
Mailliw73 he/him Posted January 25, 2021 Posted January 25, 2021 I’m not around much anymore and this was the first game I’ve followed at all in probably a year, so take this with a grain of salt. I think the main problem here is to do with role distribution. There used to be a healthy fear of making assumptions about the distribution and using that to fuel your reads. For example, in the first game I GMd, there were 4(?) Spanreeds which were the PM creation item. One of those did belong to the elims, but they never used it because pretty quickly the thread decided that a Spanreed was a likely item/role that I would’ve given to the Elims. So they went through and executed every spanreed holder they could find. And they were all village. Because of instances like that (and Meta’s infamous distributions), people didn’t try to solve the game based on roles the same way as often. This game was clearly solvable that way and may be a mechanical problem as already addressed by both GMs. Aside from that, I think it’s possible that the meta for GMs has become a predictable way of distributing roles. Again, I’m not speaking from experience here, I’m pretty behind on SE meta. The second problem is what I see in this thread specifically. I’ve seen a lot about being bored or complacent or not having fun because you didn’t have many abilities to use that affected the game. Maybe that’s a side effect of this game having so many roles that do impact the game to a great degree. But, my philosophy—and I attribute a lot of this to the SE Father Metacognition, is that every player, regardless of role, has a big part to play in the game. In fact, vanilla players can have some of the biggest impact because they can play in a way that isn’t going to cost the village an important ability if they do die. It allows them to get in front of the prominent abilities and take fire and do the investigative work without worrying. They are the ones who can piece together the elim team and don’t have to worry about having tunnel vision based solely off scans they receive. Survival, for instance since I was the original Survival, has so many options to make the game fun regardless of win con. The extra lives allow them to play as risky as they want and to insert themselves into the game in whatever fashion they desire. Anyways, random thoughts I had. Tl;dr: Vanillas are important too! Don’t rely on distribution to solve the game/maybe GMs should take this into consideration when distributing. Maybe I’ll see you all one day soon in a game. 4
Elbereth she/her Posted January 25, 2021 Author Posted January 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Araris Valerian said: I agree with you here. I think what I was trying to drive at is there is a little less room for flexibility in the rules given the current PM meta. It's not a bad thing, just something we need to be aware of when creating games and approving rules. I think it would be fun to try and design a game that is based on roleclaims to take advantage of how a lot of the community right now enjoys playing. Yeah, definitely! And in fairness, Wilson and I haven’t been around enough recently to realize the meta was this open with roleclaims, or we might’ve done something in advance. (But maybe not, and either way it’s still a problem.) 20 minutes ago, Gears said: Somewhat tangential thought [that was originally a continuation of my concurrence but then I quickly realised that it was most definitely not a part of that bit]: I was recently contemplating the value of a safeword in SE [well, the original thought was about life in general, but cross-apply it to SE]. A succinct way of saying, "I am not enjoying this, I am not having fun, I want out". Alternatively, we could just say that we aren't having fun anymore, which mostly accomplishes the same thing. This would have to be universally respected and not abused as a get-out-of-jail-free card whenever something doesn't go your way, but I think it could help with communication, at least a little. In essence, SE is just an elaborate murder roleplay, so maybe what works there might help with our communication problems. [Please don't make jokes about my references to things worthy of brain bleach.] Hm. First, SE’s “safeword” equivalent is blue text, but we don’t use it on in-game things and there’s good reason for that. But secondly.... I'm contemplating a few things here. I think Kas' point about the root of the problem is particularly useful here. What you're talking about here is damage mitigation. If a player breaks a norm, how do we get them to stop doing that? And that's fine (though there are a couple complications to this one, see below), but all in all it was handled... okay, I guess I can't say it was handled well, but I don't think it was abnormally poorly. Humans are bad at communicating clearly about their feelings in the real world, let alone a text-based game involving heaps of paranoia. And I think the focus needs instead to be on, how do we get people not to break norms in the first place? (To which I think the answer is ethics, norms, and empathy, basically, but there's more detail than that.) But, to address the specific critiques I have of your idea: 0) It seems, at least to me, to imply that if the other person doesn't mind, there isn't a problem. For instance, say that Dingo instead tried to blackmail Sunburst Toucan. Toucan is a pretty new player from mafia forums elsewhere, and doesn't see anything wrong with this - they're still having fun! Does that make blackmail okay in this instance? (Hint: no, no it does not.) And I guarantee that if something like that had happened, very similar comments to the ones this game would've been made in the spec doc. Certainly I know that Wilson was unhappy about the situation well before TJ said anything about it to anyone. Because even if it doesn't hurt that person, it hurts the community to normalize blackmail. I expect the response would've been somewhat less harsh if TJ weren't upset, but it'd very much still be there and it definitely should be. I don't think you're intending to say it, but this solution both doesn't provide for situations like the one I outlined, and ignores that those situations exist. 1) And now to why the idea itself is tricky to implement: first, emotional manipulation. If we can trust each other, just saying “I’m not having fun here” should be enough, after all - but players have to be paranoid about whether it’s sincere. This is something we’ve never had very firm norms on - some of our best players have used emotional manipulation very successfully, in fact. But it’s something we don’t have norms against in large part because it’s rare, and relatively minor when it does happen. I’m personally okay with that situation continuing; I certainly don’t want to have to decide what counts as emotional manipulation and what doesn’t. But that means players will stay paranoid, and for the player now being doubted in their sincerity about not having fun, that sucks. A lot. 2) The second reason why this won't work much of the time: alignment-specific problems. Because often, though not always, a player not having fun is having an alignment-specific issue. That’s not something you see in the cases of Elephant or Penguin having problems, but it is somewhat there for the elims this game. A team, or a team member, isn't enjoying the game in a way that essentially reveals their alignment - because if their alignment were to the other side it would be heavy emotional manipulation way past what we see on here. And this is the case in... well, I don't feel confident enough to put a percentage on it, but this is the case for a lot of the drama/lack of enjoyment that happens. 3) The last reason is just that being hurt is personal and complicated and hard to communicate. Say, I'm evil and a teammate starts musing about killing the rest of the team and winning alone, just because that seems more fun. (Real story.) Maybe I laugh along with it at first, because it's kind of a fun idea or I'm tired or whatever, and then hours or days later I realize "wait, no, that'd be horrible" - it's hard to then go back to that person and say "y'know that idea you were talking about that I agreed to? well I disagree now so much that it's making me not have fun so please don't" without feeling awkward and like they won't take you seriously. I'm not saying you shouldn't say something like that - you absolutely should, if it happens, and the GM/mods will back you up if the other person gets upset - but I can absolutely understand why you might not want to do that. Or, same situation but this time I know I have an anger problem. And so what I want to do isn't to say "I'm hurt, please stop" but instead "that's an awful idea and you're a terrible player and you should feel bad for even thinking of that" and I know that wouldn't help. So rather than lash out, I don't say anything, because I don't want to cause my GM more headaches to deal with. And, imo, that's a good decision. Basically what I'm saying here is that there are lots of times in which a player being hurt or not having fun will have a difficult time saying that, explaining why, or keeping calm about it. Whenever you can communicate like that, you can and should, but I want to put the onus on the person breaking the norm rather than the person being hurt in the process. addendum to all of this: Many of the situations I listed above can be helped by talking to your GM/IM. Which I do think is something everyone should take from this game. I think that mod intervention without being asked is extremely difficult and complicated, and would in general not advocate that it happen, but if a player comes to me and says "hey X is doing this and I'm really not enjoying it" then I may be able to pass that on to X. Ultimately norms are built from the community level, but there are some that it's hard for players to maintain except post-game. If you find yourself in one of those situations, or really any sort of conflict with another player, talk to your GM or IM. Let me know if all/any of that makes sense, I'm tired and rewrote this a few times to try to get it to say what I wanted but I'm not sure I quite got there. 9
Illwei Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 3 hours ago, Elandera said: Nu!Pru Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr >:(... Can we go....halfsies?? :P. I think that it's a lot easier for GMs, or spectators, or even the dead to look at a game objectively. It's hard to do that when you're the one in the middle of it, and even harder when you are completely unaware that your actions are hurting people until you read the dead doc. I can look at what I did this game and point out things that I didn't want I think the main thing that bothered me about reading the dead doc was that I was completely unaware the I was being harmful until I reached the doc. 3 hours ago, Furamirionind said: Going back to what I said in the dead doc, I think just about every issue this game can be solved with better communication... and perhaps a grievance system (used by players, gms, and ims) would help facilitate this. If any of the people involved had talked to anyone else, the problem would have been minimal. I was going to say something earlier, but I saw that Fura mentioned it in the dead doc. I don't know the official progression if there is one here, but on my robotics team when there was a problem, the first step was always to talk to the other person there was a problem with. Only after that would you go to the captain, a mentor, the coach, if you couldn't resolve it between yourselves. If there isn't some form of grievance system, then I think that's a problem here. Things like what happened to Dingo (and people like me saying that they didn't like what was happening) I feel like could have been avoided if there was a standard for how anything like this should be approached. What happened here in my case is that people were hurt by me. They then did not let me know. I had no clue that I hurt them. I then go to the dead doc and find out that more than one person thought that how I was going about things was harmful? I do want to say that I understand that maybe players couldn't have let me know in this setting, but I agree with Fura that there was a big issue with communication. If they had come to me and clearly explained what the problem was, would there have been a better outcome? Maybe. If that isn't reasonable, why wouldn't it be okay for an IM to step in? When does a playstyle reach the point where Harmful is Harmful enough for the IM to get involved? If the GM/IM is asked to help with a problem/intervene when is it okay for them to say no? 4
Elandera she/her Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 8 minutes ago, Illwei said: Can we go....halfsies?? :P. It did originally shatter... I think we can manage halfsies. 2
Ookla-son-son-Ventyl Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Elbereth said: We can certainly edit stuff into the writeup, but you're also perfectly welcome to just add your part of the story here in thread. Alrighty! Well... I’m taking you up on your kind offer. ————————————————————————————— I’ve written here what happened to Niru after his attempted blackmailing of a Shard and then his sub-sequential removal. I tried something new while writing this, something extremely challenging for me as a writer, a good exercise you could say. Writing in first person and present tense. I wrote previous Niru Drash RP in first person, so I thought to spice it up just a little bit more in this. So feel free to give lots of feedback (and upvotes). ————————————————————————————— Spoiler Somewhere and Nowhere I float. Somewhere and nowhere at the same time. It is painful and relaxing at the same time. My thoughts come fleetingly, each one escaping my grasp quickly. I destroyed the Cognitive Realm, not long along. I am the one to blame for my suffering, so I cannot complain at my state of somethingness and nothingness. I’m not sure if this in The Beyond or not. I hope so. Though, it could be just as likely that my mind is being imprisoned. I find this both reassuring and depressing at the same time. It means that I might be alive, somehow. It means that I could return to the physical realm. Because, every prison can be escaped from. However, if I’m not imprisoned and this truly is The Beyond, I will be pleased. I deserve my fate. The fate to watch, observe, to not plan for a way to topple things built up by mine and others hands. I was tainted by the Shard I held for so long, so long that I’d forgotten my old name and turned myself into Niru Drash. The Intent of the Ruin had driven me to insanity, to doing things—that in my newfound clarity—I regret immensely. Even now, I feel remnants of its power infiltrating my thoughts. A nagging voice begging me to reach for walls of a prison that may or may not exist. “Break things! Rip the walls of this void apart! Tear into the fabric of reality once more!” It screams. I deny its wishes repeatedly. Each time my resolve strengthens and weakens at the same time. It’s fingers weave their way into my mind tenderly. I refuse and turn my (eyes?) attention towards the worlds I left behind. They war on, killing each other for dominance over the Cosmere. Millions die, worlds break, Shards are shattered and remade. The demon in my mind rejoices and cries, for it loves to see the ruin, but despairs it can take no part in it. We watch as a man becomes a Shard. We watch as Odium is shattered beyond repair. We watch as the body of hate returns to the land of the living. We watch as Autonomy completes their quest and returns to war. We watch Survival do one thing, survive. We watch the thing we once held break another world, and take with it an ancient being. We watch a trapper grow and grieve and kill. We watch as three Shards fight one man and die. We watch as one war ends and more begin. We do not become free. Not for a long time at least. Me and the lingering imprint of Ruin search for an end to the void. Because I do not last long against its demands, I give into the desire to live. At some time, when hundreds of thousands of years have passed, we reach the end of what I believe to be a prison. It’s a wall. Yet, not one I can see or touch, as I have no eyes or hands. No, this barrier is something I feel. It’s the first thing I remember feeling in a long, long time. Clarity is brought by its touch. The thing in my thoughts revels. And I revel with it. I press against the wall for the next two hundred eighty-seven thousand six hundred thirty-two years and—finally—a single crack appears in the wall’s surface. Yet again, I don’t see the rift, but I feel it and know that it’s there. The power and I pry our conscience into that hole, forcing our way, spreading the break further. The process speeds up exponentially, because the wider the crack becomes the easier and easier it gets to widen. It takes another fifty-six thousand eight hundred eleven years, but at last… I am free. I find myself in another prison. My companion, who began to call itself Raze, and I scream treacherously in unison. A howl deeper than any wolf’s. A roar greater than that of the now-extinct chasmfiends. I bang against the prison, this time with hands emaciated from millennia of stillness and hunger. The sound of my fist hitting the metallic bars sends a ring throughout wherever I am. I prayed to any god that may still exist that my captors hear my screams. I ask not how I’m still alive. I do not want to be. Though, if I have to guess, I was probably made into a Cognitive Shadow and brought into the Physical Realm from the pockets of Shadesmar that persisted after my destruction of it. “We are something like a Returned,” Raze corrects. I turn, shocked to find a dark form sitting on the bed I hibernated in. “Our captors have been feeding us Breath. If I had to guess, we are on Nalthis.” “Ironic,” I reply, trying to hide my despair that this creature followed me into the Physical Realm. Although I gave up on trying to resist its touch years ago, a part of me still wishes it would just leave me alone. Razed nodded—the thing I assumed is its head—in agreement. Of course my captors are imprisoning me on the final place I planned to destroy, oh so long ago. The place where I earned my punishment by making one fatal error. Why they are keeping me alive, I don’t know. “We will escape now,” Raze declares, standing up from the mattress. It stands next to me and puts its appendage on my shoulder. “You know how to use Breath, correct?” “Yes, I should remember,” I answer. Words are a struggle to form and my voice is pitched from not speaking aloud for so long. “My memories are hazy, so it might take a bit for me to get the hang of it again.” “This is fine, we appear to be immortal.” I begin to practice Awakening once more. Raze continually re-teaching me things I forgot. We go from the simplest commands, to performing complex actions with the thin straws from the mattress. All the while never once being visited by any other living beings. After some time, I walk to the bars of my cell and grasp one: “Bend at my touch,” I command it. And it obeys. I push the bar aside and move to the next. We repeat the process for another ten minutes, and by ‘we,’ I mean, I do all the work while Raze sits on the bed and whistles the same tune it’s been whistling every since we awoke. I push down the final bar and step out of the prison that held me for roughly four hundred thousand years. My foot takes its first step into a world that has moved without my presence for millennia. Raze follows behind me, letting out an exasperated sigh of what I assumed was relief. “Alright, pal,” It starts, walking further beyond our cage. “Let’s go show the world what they’ve been missing out on!” I nod along and walk next to the proof of my insanity. We reach the end of what seems like a never ending tunnel and come face to face with a staircase. My muscles are weak, and not even accounting for the lack of light, I struggle to go up each step. My bones feel tired and brittle, like they could splinter into millions of pieces at any moment. My eyes strain for light, like they could pop into a messy gore any second now. Yet, Raze ascends the stairs with little effort, whistling the same storming tune. We reach the top of the staircase and I barely avoid running into a thick oak door. Its handle is rusted from years of disuse. The planks are red from blood; whose blood? I have no clue. “Well, open it up, partner!” Raze says, excitement filling each word to the brim. I wonder momentarily why it doesn’t open the door itself. Then I remember, I’m insane. Of course a figment of my imagination wouldn’t be able to open a very real door. I wrap my thin fingers around the tarnished door handle, flakes of rust falling off at my touch. I twist the knob. I feel Raze’s eagerness as I do so. I pull the door towards me. I feel Raze’s fervor to escape as I do so. The door is open. My eyes are blinded by gentle torchlight. My ears are greeted by the sound of something pounding against the roof of the wooden cabin. My tongue is treated to the taste of something other than the stale air of a basement. My nose is delighted by the scent of some kind of baked good. My skin is nuanced by the individual grains of wood against my bare feet, feeling so much more alive the stone chamber I was in before. My blissful re-awakening to once familiar sensations is rudely interrupted. “M-my lord!” Calls the scratchy voice of an older man. “Black and white, you’re awake!” The man has few strings of gray hair, wrinkles cover almost every end of his face, and his back is arched by the cruel mistress that is time. He begins to stand and falters for a moment, before reaching for a black cane that was leaning against the table. He shambles over to me and places his hand on my cheek, as if he isn’t sure if I’m really there. Apparently, he’s satisfied with what he finds and walks to the cottages exterior door. “Wait!” I shout, my voice the croak of a frog, before he pulls the heavyset door open. “Who are you? Where am I? What happened after the Second Shardic War? How am I still alive? And… what is my name?” He hesitates and pries his wrinkled hand off the door. He brings his eyes up to meet mine. The venerable man laughs heartily. “I guess it makes sense you have lots of questions,” He remarks. “Well, I’ll start with the easiest.” I strain my ears, preparing to take in every word the man has to offer like a beggar hoping for any scrap they could get from a passing lord. Raze mumbles something from the shadow of the door I’d come from. “You have a lot of names, but here on Nalthis…” He begins. “They call you Earthbane the Endbringer.” With that said, the man turned around and opened the door. And the first thing we saw of the world we longed for, was an unbroken snow. I step barefoot into the cold powder, chills run up my legs and up my spine until they reach the top of my head. I look from my right, where the old man stands proud, to my left, where Raze glides out into the snow, leaving not a single footprint. “So, master… what do you plan to do?” I think for a moment. What did I plan to do? The first thing that comes to mind is: revenge. No, not revenge that I was imprisoned. Revenge that my former allies and captors had kept me alive. That they did not let Mercy have me. “To Ruin,” I start, pausing as I look back towards my shadowy companion. “And Raze.” Alrighty, I hope the ending sounds properly menacing. I guess one good thing that came from my mistake this game is that I could write this short story thing. Who knows maybe I’ll write a fan fiction about this, or better yet... run an SE game about stopping Niru Drash in his quest for revenge. EDIT; THIS IS NOT THE BEST VERSION OF THIS SHORT STORY THING, READ FURTHER IN THE THREAD FOR THAT! Edited January 26, 2021 by Ventyl 2
StrikerEZ he/him Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 So, one thing I think should happen is definitely some sort of way to bring up issues like the Dingo situation to the mods. Whether that’s just a google form you can fill out, or some sort other sort of official way of filing a grievance, there needs to be some sort of system for letting the mods know about these kinds of things. And there needs to be a formal system of what happens when a player breaks a rule. Some sort of warning, punishment, then banning system for repeated infractions. Having a bunch of rules is all fine and great, but it doesn’t help much if they’re not really enforced beyond just warning players to stop. A few warnings for minor infractions and one warning for major infractions. Then if they still need another warning or two for minor infractions, then they get blocked from playing games for a little bit. Or if they do a second major infraction. And if they hit a third major infraction or some designated number of minor ones, then they are banned from the games. Having meta discussions like this is all well and good, but again: if we aren’t really enforcing consequences for breaking the rules, why have the rules in the first place? I hope this made sense. 4
Mat he/him Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 6 minutes ago, Ventyl said: Alrighty, I hope the ending sounds properly menacing. I guess one good thing that came from my mistake this game is that I could write this short story thing. Who knows maybe I’ll write a fan fiction about this, or better yet... run an SE game about stopping Niru Drash in his quest for revenge. Niru doesn't hold Ruin anymore, though
Ookla-son-son-Ventyl Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 5 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said: Niru doesn't hold Ruin anymore, though My head cannon is that Raze is a Splinter. Always, it’s the thought that counts right?
Kasimir he/him Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Ashbringer said: I'll post a few more thoughts on the various discussions in the dead doc and community interactions, but that's essentially my end. Bewildered old Ash. If anyone would like to explain how PM mastering works, I would love to hear it. I can say a bit about this here, but as I noted in the game and several times, I'm very far from being a PM master, and if you're thinking about PM spider type capabilities, you're looking more at players like Burnt and Illwei for advice. Quote Kasimir: The Queen Eshen award (If you don’t remember, Queen Eshen is Raoden’s step-mother, the one who could talk on and on about nothing in particular)- Since beginning this game I have received roughly 2,400 emails from 17thshard PM notifications. Of that number, over 900 of them were from PMs that involved Kas. That’s roughly 37% of the emails I received as a result of this game. Kas’s own LG12 PM between him and us GMs was by itself 8 pages long. Even if we only attribute half of those PMs to Kas (assuming that the person he was communicating with supplied the other half), that's still over 450 (18%) of the PM notifications I received this game. Lies. All lies. Most of it was Wyrm's fault. And Wilson's. What's interesting is 2014 - 2015 Kas was very adamant about PM safety. I refused to let people roleclaim to me, screamed if people tried, and generally refused to give out my role information either. It was fairly impossible not to in this game, as I had a role that reduced all votes on me by one, and so I basically just went ahead and claimed it in thread the moment the missing vote was discovered. And then proceeded to troll people with bad poetry And yet... I was also the most chatty player in the game This wasn't a contradiction in terms. I've tended to use PM roles to info-share in restricted communication games. And I naturally like bantering, PMing, and chatting casually with other players. (My PM partners this round can confirm ) What I'm not very good at is specifically and deliberately getting players to give me information, or roleclaim to me. That's okay. I don't want roleclaims. I want people to practice opsec But as I've mentioned, my use of PMs is generally to solicit reads, to try to engage seemingly-inactive players (which I did a tiny bit this game but was way too tired to get into), and to try to build a rapport with players. I have used PM rapport before to get several Villagers to turn on a Village trust (but I was also a Villager and that 'trust' was Evil, so there ) So with those clarifications out of the way, some questions to ask yourself: Are you a naturally chatty player? Can you become one? [IMO, if you aren't, or you aren't interested in it, it's not worth it. Get another player on your team to work the PM game, stat. I recognise this is less applicable to Team Evil this game. But if you're not good at it, you're better off cultivating another player who is and getting your info off them - in this game, I got to supplement my weak PM spider game by being in contact with Illwei, which means functionally all I needed to do was to get Illwei to trust me.] What do I want out of PMs? Do I want to gain trust? Do I want to build rapports? Do I want to gain information? [I don't want information, I want reads, so I'll often banter and then ask players for their view on in-game events. If exchanging information, you may often need to offer a bit of it yourself. Keep in mind that people generally don't appreciated being treated like a vending machine where you push buttons and info comes out - focus on being a pleasant/fun conversation partner first. On the other hand, some players like Devotary or Araris prefer you get down to business right away. Talking to Stink is an art - he told me about Nalthis but this was also amidst two concurrent PMs (we were aiming for 3) full of chill talk, and honestly I wasn't hitting Stink up for info but because it's fun to chill with him If building rapports, you definitely want to be a fun conversation partner. The main reason I trusted Evil Wyrm in MR1 despite having a bad gut feeling about it legit boiled down to how much rapport he'd built with me over two to three full cycles' worth of bantering in the darkeyes faction doc.] What skills do I have, and how do I bring them to bear on PMs? [Like I said, I'm naturally chatty or I enjoy bantering with players, so my PM game tends to focus primarily on building rapport with players and then using that to gain reads. It doesn't work with some - my PM with Mist kind of petered out, as I'm not that charismatic, but it was enough to get me conversations with a bunch of players. If you're better at compiling info, you may consider starting up as an info trader. And so on.] Who are the people I naturally have a good relationship with? [IMO, seek them out immediately in PMs, as it's easier to get the conversation going, especially if you're bad at the PM games. And in my case, there's no point in joining a game where Wilson or Wyrm are playing if I'm not immediately going to PM them and troll them hard ] 8 hours ago, Archer said: At the time I took the emotional response as an indicator of OC alignment, and was pleased I'd gotten a solid lead that I proceeded to tunnel until everyone doing reads said that Mouse is village. Kas, I should have apologized earlier for making you upset, but I'll do it now. In hindsight, my comments were based on an incomplete understanding of how PMs are supposed to be used, how neutral factions interact in the game with others, and how you got your information. (You made some very good reads and breakdowns in the game... too good to be unaided by an elim doc or bluffs, I thought). I apologize. I did not mean to be condescending or abrasive to your playstyle. I also apologize more generally for saying people were being careless. Thanks to the GMs. You did good. No worries, and thanks Archer - I apologise as well for my strong language as I was feeling kind of frustrated about getting side-eyed for a tactic you yourself (and several other Villagers) appeared to be employing. And identifying players who had too much information is definitely a decent Evil tell, so that's all and good. 8 hours ago, Ashbringer said: Well 1) I had absolutely no idea who you were as I've only played the Ashyn game with you, and 2) at the time I actually wanted to keep you alive because you were my best PM buddy... until you exposed me and Joe. By that point we had bigger problems. And 3)... I didn't really think I could afford to refuse Orlok. We were about to be down two members, and we needed a way to get at Honor. Which does make it ironic but we didn't know that That's fair Ash, I think I overestimated a bit from how everyone and their horse appeared to have clocked me by Cycle 3 And yeah, I think El and Wilson were cackling just a tad at the whole irony of the one player you promised not to kill being your kill switch for Honour >> 4 hours ago, Mailliw73 said: I’m not around much anymore and this was the first game I’ve followed at all in probably a year, so take this with a grain of salt. I think the main problem here is to do with role distribution. There used to be a healthy fear of making assumptions about the distribution and using that to fuel your reads. For example, in the first game I GMd, there were 4(?) Spanreeds which were the PM creation item. One of those did belong to the elims, but they never used it because pretty quickly the thread decided that a Spanreed was a likely item/role that I would’ve given to the Elims. So they went through and executed every spanreed holder they could find. And they were all village. Because of instances like that (and Meta’s infamous distributions), people didn’t try to solve the game based on roles the same way as often. This game was clearly solvable that way and may be a mechanical problem as already addressed by both GMs. Aside from that, I think it’s possible that the meta for GMs has become a predictable way of distributing roles. Again, I’m not speaking from experience here, I’m pretty behind on SE meta. The second problem is what I see in this thread specifically. I’ve seen a lot about being bored or complacent or not having fun because you didn’t have many abilities to use that affected the game. Maybe that’s a side effect of this game having so many roles that do impact the game to a great degree. But, my philosophy—and I attribute a lot of this to the SE Father Metacognition, is that every player, regardless of role, has a big part to play in the game. In fact, vanilla players can have some of the biggest impact because they can play in a way that isn’t going to cost the village an important ability if they do die. It allows them to get in front of the prominent abilities and take fire and do the investigative work without worrying. They are the ones who can piece together the elim team and don’t have to worry about having tunnel vision based solely off scans they receive. Survival, for instance since I was the original Survival, has so many options to make the game fun regardless of win con. The extra lives allow them to play as risky as they want and to insert themselves into the game in whatever fashion they desire. Anyways, random thoughts I had. Tl;dr: Vanillas are important too! Don’t rely on distribution to solve the game/maybe GMs should take this into consideration when distributing. Maybe I’ll see you all one day soon in a game. Hello Stormfather my first GM, it's nice we meet again I was talking to Wilson about this, actually. Between Meta's trolling and LG5 being my first game, in which we let the Village execute all spanreed holders and then I yeeted the spanreed you so kindly gave me, I try not to apply hard role distro assumptions anymore. I'd soft-assumed Ruin was Village for the purposes of working, but prepared to revise that assumption, especially after Ruin blew up Shadesmar, since the number of compromised Elims was a bit too high for a bus to have been plausible by that juncture I agree with the emphasis on the importance of being a vanilla. I've previously written that stuff about your vote being your voice and your power as one, and I've admittedly enjoyed it more than being a role most times. In a way, I actually feel 'minor roles' were functionally vanillas this game because while I did get off one or two useful scans, I was really more helpful to the Village poking around, asking questions, and trying to make sense of things without getting trolled as hard as I was in MR1 by Wilson It's one of the best lessons I took from early SE, so thanks for bringing it up again. 4 hours ago, Elbereth said: addendum to all of this: Many of the situations I listed above can be helped by talking to your GM/IM. Which I do think is something everyone should take from this game. I think that mod intervention without being asked is extremely difficult and complicated, and would in general not advocate that it happen, but if a player comes to me and says "hey X is doing this and I'm really not enjoying it" then I may be able to pass that on to X. Ultimately norms are built from the community level, but there are some that it's hard for players to maintain except post-game. If you find yourself in one of those situations, or really any sort of conflict with another player, talk to your GM or IM. I feel like sometimes, there's inertia. I don't remember if we pulled in the IM for that game - I think Wyrm and I kind of flagged it to them? But it was also too late, and that's that the damage was already done. (Sorry. It's been years and my memory seems to think games don't exist after LG15b ) But say, look at what happened when Len was going after me in LG29. I didn't see this as something worth asking an IM about, and I didn't really know how an IM could make things better. Len was viciously attacking me, I hated it, but it's not like you can totally ask a player to lay off either. Because I didn't see many options for intervention, or reasons to, I figured the best thing to do was to quit and I just went inactive and never logged back into SE for quite a few months/a year++ after that. I don't know, I just want to flag: is this an issue too? Surely it is, if a player feels their best recourse is to leave the game, like I was considering doing D3. Noting that something that might be worth for a GM to try is something I call 'proactive GMing.' As I noted briefly in the Roshar doc, my philosophy is that I like to make my IM suffer >:) I don't want to mention names with regard to games I've personally GMed, so I'm just gonna note that my attitude as a GM is to highlight potential problems to my IM. This could be a player who is visibly unhappy about being executed early for several games in a row. This could be signs that two players might be about to throw down in subsequent cycles. My attitude is that if I proactively highlight these situations to my IM, and ask the IM do a welfare check, or at least just make sure everything's okay, this can potentially stop situations from even exploding in the first place. And if despite my best efforts and the IM's best efforts, these things explode anyway, then minimally we have forewarning and can get on top of things instead of being caught pants down. P.S. Please still assign an IM to my games? Edited January 26, 2021 by Kasimir 6
Ookla-son-son-Ventyl Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) Okay, I was unhappy about some of the things in my aftermath RP, so I went through in fixed them. @Elbereth, if you are going to put this in the write-up, use this version! ———————————————————————— Somewhere and Nowhere I float. Somewhere and nowhere at the same time. It is painful and relaxing at the same time. My thoughts come fleetingly, each one escaping my grasp quickly. I destroyed the Cognitive Realm, not long along. I am the one to blame for my suffering, so I cannot complain at my state of somethingness and nothingness. I’m not sure if this in The Beyond or not. I hope so. Though, it could be just as likely that my mind is imprisoned. I find this both reassuring and depressing. It means I might be alive, somehow. It means I could return to the physical realm. Because, every prison can be escaped from. However, if I’m not imprisoned and this truly is The Beyond, I will be pleased. I deserve my fate. The fate to watch, to observe, and to not scheme a way to topple things built by my hands I am tainted by the Shard I held for so long, so long that I forgot my old name and turned myself into Niru Drash. The Intent of the Ruin drove me into insanity, into doing things—that in my newfound clarity—I regret immensely. Even now, I feel remnants of its power infiltrating my thoughts. A nagging voice begging me to reach for walls of a prison that may not even exist. “Break things! Rip the walls of this void apart! Tear into the fabric of reality once more!” It screams. I deny its’ wishes again and again and again. Each time my resolve strengthens and weakens. It’s fingers weave their way into my mind tenderly with every repetition of its words. I refuse and turn my (eyes?) attention towards the worlds I left behind. They war on, killing each other for dominance over the Cosmere. Millions die, worlds break, Shards are shattered and remade. The demon in my mind rejoices and cries. For it loves to watch the ruin, but despairs it cannot play part in it. We watch as a man becomes a Shard. We watch as Odium is shattered beyond repair. We watch as the Vessel of Hate returns to the land of the living. We watch as Autonomy completes their quest and returns to war. We watch Survival do one thing and one thing only. We watch the piece of Adonalsium we once held break another world, and take with it a Splinter of another. We watch a trapper grow and grieve and kill. We watch as three Shards fight one man and all die. We watch as one war ends and more begin. However, we do not become free. Not for a long time at least. The lingering imprint of Ruin and I search for an end to the void. Because, I do not last long against its demands. I give into the desire to live once again. At some point, when hundreds of thousands of years have passed, we reach the end of what I believe to be a prison. It’s a wall. Yet, not one I can see or touch, as I have no eyes or hands. No, this barrier is something I feel. It’s the first thing I feel in a long, long time. Clarity is brought via its touch. The thing in my thoughts revels. And I revel with it. I pound against the wall for the next two hundred eighty-seven thousand six hundred thirty-two years and—finally—a single crack appears in its surface. Yet again, I don’t see the rift, but I feel it and know it’s there. The power and I pry our conscience into that hole, forcing our way, fracturing the break further. The process speeds up exponentially, because the wider the crack becomes, the easier and easier it gets to widen. It takes another fifty-six thousand eight hundred eleven years, but at last… I am free. Or so I thought. I wake and find myself in another prison. My companion, who begins to call itself Raze, and I scream treacherously in unison. A howl deeper than any wolf’s. A roar greater than that of the now-extinct chasmfiends. I bang against the prison, this time with hands emaciated from millennia of stillness and hunger. The sound of my fist hitting the metallic bars sending a ring throughout wherever I am. I pray to any god that may still exist; ‘let my captors hear my screams.’ But, I ask not how I still live. As I wish not to be. Though, if I was to guess, I’d say I was made into a Cognitive Shadow. One brought into the Physical Realm from pockets of Shadesmar that persisted even after I Ruined it. “We are something like a Returned,” Raze corrects. I turn, shocked to find a dark form sitting on the bed I hibernated in. “Our captors have been feeding us Breath. So, if I were to guess, we’re on Nalthis.” “Ironic,” I reply, trying to hide my despair that this creature followed me into the Physical Realm. Although I gave up on trying to resist its touch years ago, a part of me still wishes it would just— Leave. Me. Alone. Raze nods—the thing I assume is its head—in agreement. Of course my captors imprison me in the final place I planned to destroy, oh so long ago. The place where I earned my punishment by making one fatal error. Why did they keep me alive? I don’t know. “We will escape. Now,” Raze declares, standing up from the mattress. It stands next to me and puts its appendage on my shoulder. “You know how to use Breath, correct?” “Yes, I should remember,” I answer. The words struggle to form. My voice is pitched higher from not speaking for so long. “My memories are hazy, so it might take a bit for me to get the hang of it again.” “This is fine. We appear to be immortal.” I begin to practice Awakening once more. Raze continually re-teaching me things I forgot. We move from the simplest commands, to performing complex actions. All with the thin straws of the worn down mattress. All while never once being visited by another living being. And after some time, I walk to the bars of my cell and grasp one: “Bend at my touch,” I Command it. It obeys. I push the bar aside and move to the next. We repeat the process for another ten minutes, and by ‘we,’ I mean; I do all the work while Raze sits on the bed and whistles the same tune it’s been whistling ever since we awoke. Finally, I push down the last bar and step out of the prison that held me for roughly four hundred thousand years. My foot takes its first step into a world that has moved without my presence for millennia. Raze follows behind me, letting out an exasperated sigh of what I assume is relief. “Alright, kiddo,” It starts, walking further beyond our cage. “Let’s go show the world what they’ve been missing out on, alright?!” I nod and walk next to proof of my insanity. We reach the end of what seems like a never ending tunnel and come face to face with a staircase. My muscles are weak, and not even accounting for the lack of light, I struggle to climb each step. My bones feel tired and brittle, like they could splinter into millions of pieces at any moment. My eyes strain for light, like they could pop into a messy gore any second now. Yet, Raze ascends the stairs with little effort, whistling the same storming tune. We reach the top of the staircase and I barely avoid running into a thick oak door. Its handle is rusted from years of disuse. The planks are red from blood; whose blood? I have no clue. “Well, open it up, partner!” Raze says, excitement filling each word to the brim. I wonder momentarily why it doesn’t open the door itself. Then I remember, I’m insane. Of course a figment of my imagination can’t open a real door. I wrap my thin fingers around the tarnished iron door handle, flakes of rust falling off at my touch. I twist the knob. I feel Raze’s eagerness as I do so. I pull the door towards me. I feel Raze’s fervor escaping as I do. The door opens. My eyes are blinded by gentle torchlight. My ears are greeted by the sound of something pounding against the roof of the wooden cabin. My tongue is treated to the taste of something other than the stale air of a basement. My nose is delighted by the scent of some kind of baked good. My skin is nuanced by the individual grains of wood against my bare feet, feeling so much more alive the stone chamber I was in before. My blissful re-awakening to once familiar sensations is rudely interrupted. “M-my lord!” Calls the scratchy voice of an older man, obviously shocked. “Black and white! You’re awake!” The man has few strings of gray hair, wrinkles cover almost every end of his face, and his back is arched by the cruel mistress that is time. He begins to stand and falters for a moment, before reaching for a black cane that was leaning against the table. He shambles over to me and places his hand on my cheek, as if he isn’t sure if I’m really there. Apparently, he’s satisfied with what he finds and walks to the cottages exterior door. “Wait!” I shout, my voice the croak of a frog, before he pulls the heavyset door open. “Who are you? Where am I? What happened after the Second Shardic War? How am I still alive? And… what is my name?” He hesitates and pries his wrinkled hand away from the door. He brings his eyes up to meet mine. The venerable man laughs heartily. “I guess it makes sense you have lots of questions,” He remarks. “Well, I’ll start with the easiest.” I strain my ears, preparing to take in every word the man has to offer, like a beggar hoping for any scrap they could get from a passing nobleman. Raze mumbles something from the shadow of the door we came from, but I don’t hear it. “You have a lot of names, but here on Nalthis…” He begins. “They call you Earthbane the Endbringer.” With that said, the man turns around and opens the door. And the first thing we see of the world we were longing for, is an unbroken snow. I step barefoot into the cold powder, chills run up my legs and up my spine and continue all the way until they reach the top of my head. I look from my right, where the old man stands proud, then to my left, where Raze marches out into the snow, leaving not a single footprint. “So, master… what do you plan to do?” I think for a moment. What did I plan to do? The first thing that comes to mind is: revenge. No, not revenge for being imprisoned. Revenge for being kept alive by my former allies-turned-captors. That they did not let Mercy have me. “To Ruin,” I start, pausing as I look back to my shadowy companion. “And Raze.” Edited January 26, 2021 by Ventyl version 3 2
Kasimir he/him Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) Ah, what the heck. I didn't want to say it explicitly, but I think I will, because informative and whatnot, amirite. 2 hours ago, Kasimir said: I feel like sometimes, there's inertia. I don't remember if we pulled in the IM for that game - I think Wyrm and I kind of flagged it to them? But it was also too late, and that's that the damage was already done. (Sorry. It's been years and my memory seems to think games don't exist after LG15b ) But say, look at what happened when Len was going after me in LG29. I didn't see this as something worth asking an IM about, and I didn't really know how an IM could make things better. Len was viciously attacking me, I hated it, but it's not like you can totally ask a player to lay off either. Because I didn't see many options for intervention, or reasons to, I figured the best thing to do was to quit and I just went inactive and never logged back into SE for quite a few months/a year++ after that. I don't know, I just want to flag: is this an issue too? Surely it is, if a player feels their best recourse is to leave the game, like I was considering doing D3. @Elbereth - I didn't involve the GM or complain because I felt it made me weak. That my job was to be able to take the heat, and that I should've fought back more viciously instead of just logging off and leaving. That the wrong lay with me because I should've just laughed it off, despite Len mocking me for bad reads. That I was overreacting - that a good player would just deal with it, and carry on. (Yes, we know I turned out to be right that Len wasn't actually reasoning but acting from Evil knowledge, but still.) Alv knew this was a problem - he commented that converting me might lead to in doc problems, so I guess it wasn't all in my head. It bothers me a lot that I left the community for months on end and idled out of a game run by my friends not because I wanted to but because I didn't want to play any more games with then!Len after that experience with him. And it bothers me that I didn't feel okay bringing it up to a GM or IM or any SE friends and all. I don't think anyone really knew, until I alluded to it in retrospect. I'd never think that of my players as a GM, or of any SE players as a friend. If you have problems, you should deconflict. I'm glad deconflicting went well this time - I talked to Fifth for advice on approaching Archer. But I'm also just pointing out that there can be significant psychological barriers with regard to reaching out for help, even if we tell players to talk to the GM and the IM. And now I need a drink... Edit: And thanks a lot, @little wilson - I know Len felt you were too harsh on him in the dead/spec doc, but reading this years later, it just feels good to know at least one person was sticking up for me, even if no one else did. That maybe I shouldn't have just quietly taken it and gone away. Edited January 26, 2021 by Kasimir 6
Ookla-son-son-Ventyl Posted January 26, 2021 Posted January 26, 2021 4 minutes ago, Kasimir said: And now I need a drink... Don’t we all...
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