The Art of Game Creation

[Araris Valerian]

Some time back I pitched the idea of a faction mega-arson game with minimal GM feedback. I finished a draft of the rules today, and am looking for feedback. The game should run with 12 players minimum, and may or may not interact with prime numbers of players poorly. Was also wondering whether people think it would be more fun as an anonymous.

Rules:

Spoiler

MR ##: A Reckoning for the Rest

Rumor has it, the Reckoners are in town. Luck has it, so are your enemies. 

 

Welcome to Idaho! MR ##: A Reckoning for the Rest occurs across the state prior to the events of Steelheart. Your faction of Epics seeks to provide the Reckoners with enough information to take down your rivals while you avoid a similar fate.

 

General Rules:

• Cycles are 48 hours long, and are not split.
• Throughout the game players may become Marked, meaning that the Reckoners know their weakness and have a plan to take them down
• There is a majority vote during each cycle, where the player with the most votes is Marked. Tied votes Mark all tied players.
  • A vote count will be posted each cycle but it will not reflect any vote manipulation nor reveal the Marked player(s)
• PMs are closed unless opened with actions.
• Each player* will belong to a faction of 4-5 Epics and will share a doc with the members of their faction
  • *Depending on player counts, some players may be Independent Epics
• When every player in a faction is Marked at the same time, all of those players lose and are removed from the game
• Players win if their faction is the last one remaining

 

Actions:

• Each faction has access to the following actions once each per cycle:
  • Roleblock a player (they will not be notified)
  • Move a vote while canceling your own (will not be reflected in the VC)
  • Mark a player
  • Protect a player from the Mark action (a faction cannot protect the same player twice back-to-back)
  • Redirect a player’s action (cannot redirect other redirects, cancels other redirects on the same target)
  • Scan a player in your faction and a player out of it,  checking if either is Marked
  • Create a PM (can contain any group of players, not necessarily yourself)
• Each player can perform 1 action per cycle

 

Order of Actions:

• PM
• Redirect
• Roleblock
• Protect
• Mark
• Vote manip
• Vote Mark
• Scan

 

Independent Epics:

• Some players may be Independent Epics
• They will not be Marked the first time they would be otherwise
• Each cycle can either take the Mark action, or 3 other actions 
• An Independent Epic wins and leaves the game if they Mark an unMarked player the turn their target’s faction is removed

 

Doc form

Edited October 3, 2023 by Araris Valerian

[DrakeMarshall]

Preliminary thoughts are that I approve of the approach to faction games where everything is based on factional powers instead of individual role powers, and I approve that the number of people alive in a faction still matters a decent amount due to action economy and voting. Overall I like this take on faction games.

As an aside, it’s interesting to see the contrasts between this and a certain other Reckoners game that shan’t be named.

I do not personally see a particular need for it to be anonymous except just if you like anonymous games in which case fair play. (Disclaimer: The Reckoners game that shan’t be named is in fact anonymous.)

Edited October 6, 2023 by DrakeMarshall

[Araris Valerian]

Just now, DrakeMarshall said:

the number of people alive in a faction still matter a decent amount due to action economy and voting

This is sort of irrelevant because players only die when their entire faction is gone. Though I think there is some merit to those ideas for a more "standard" faction game.

[DrakeMarshall]

14 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

This is sort of irrelevant because players only die when their entire faction is gone. Though I think there is some merit to those ideas for a more "standard" faction game.

Oh oop forgot about that part.

Yeah so the good thing about that is that means this is an unusually unswingy faction game and it works well with lower player counts because people aren’t getting removed for longer.

Might not always feel that way to the players since they can’t easily tell who’s marked, so on the ground they’ll just be seeing whole factions suddenly get wiped, but.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

they do have tools at their disposal to check if a player is marked

Edited October 6, 2023 by DrakeMarshall

[CRichardThrone]

On 04/10/2023 at 8:09 AM, Araris Valerian said:

Some time back I pitched the idea of a faction mega-arson game with minimal GM feedback. I finished a draft of the rules today, and am looking for feedback. The game should run with 12 players minimum, and may or may not interact with prime numbers of players poorly. Was also wondering whether people think it would be more fun as an anonymous.

Rules:

  Reveal hidden contents

MR ##: A Reckoning for the Rest

Rumor has it, the Reckoners are in town. Luck has it, so are your enemies. 

 

Welcome to Idaho! MR ##: A Reckoning for the Rest occurs across the state prior to the events of Steelheart. Your faction of Epics seeks to provide the Reckoners with enough information to take down your rivals while you avoid a similar fate.

 

General Rules:

• Cycles are 48 hours long, and are not split.
• Throughout the game players may become Marked, meaning that the Reckoners know their weakness and have a plan to take them down
• There is a majority vote during each cycle, where the player with the most votes is Marked. Tied votes Mark all tied players.
  • A vote count will be posted each cycle but it will not reflect any vote manipulation nor reveal the Marked player(s)
• PMs are closed unless opened with actions.
• Each player* will belong to a faction of 4-5 Epics and will share a doc with the members of their faction
  • *Depending on player counts, some players may be Independent Epics
• When every player in a faction is Marked at the same time, all of those players lose and are removed from the game
• Players win if their faction is the last one remaining

 

Actions:

• Each faction has access to the following actions once each per cycle:
  • Roleblock a player (they will not be notified)
  • Move a vote while canceling your own (will not be reflected in the VC)
  • Mark a player
  • Protect a player from the Mark action (a faction cannot protect the same player twice back-to-back)
  • Redirect a player’s action (cannot redirect other redirects, cancels other redirects on the same target)
  • Scan a player in your faction and a player out of it,  checking if either is Marked
  • Create a PM (can contain any group of players, not necessarily yourself)
• Each player can perform 1 action per cycle

 

Order of Actions:

• PM
• Redirect
• Roleblock
• Protect
• Mark
• Vote manip
• Vote Mark
• Scan

 

Independent Epics:

• Some players may be Independent Epics
• They will not be Marked the first time they would be otherwise
• Each cycle can either take the Mark action, or 3 other actions 
• An Independent Epic wins and leaves the game if they Mark an unMarked player the turn their target’s faction is removed

 

Doc form

I've played in a Things game on MU. Though I'm not sure if it would work here.

[Araris Valerian]

3 hours ago, CRichardThrone said:

I've played in a Things game on MU. Though I'm not sure if it would work here.

Not sure what you mean by "Things".

[Stick.]

it's a mafia variant, similar mechanic to being Marked 

[Araris Valerian]

I have a couple of thoughts I’d like to share that aren’t restricted to any one game, but address some SE trends. Something for folks to keep in mind when they are working on new games. Definitely interested in hearing what other folks think about these things.

First, I think GMs should consider whether vote manip is appropriate for their game, rather than including it by default. Thematically it fits Mistborn settings quite well, and since that’s where SE started, it makes sense that it’s prevalent. But in some ways it runs against the general idea of mafia; the elims get the NK and the village gets the exe. With vote manip, the exe is no longer as reliable of a village tool.

And second, I think GMs should consider whether the elim kill should use up an action, in games with limited actions. This seems to be the default rule in most games. In some games this is certainly appropriate, and in fact creates interesting choices for both the village and the elims. Other times it leads to underpowered elim teams and a path for the village to mechanically solve the game, which I think is a bit boring.

Just some food for thought.

[Kasimir]

3 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

And second, I think GMs should consider whether the elim kill should use up an action, in games with limited actions. This seems to be the default rule in most games. In some games this is certainly appropriate, and in fact creates interesting choices for both the village and the elims. Other times it leads to underpowered elim teams and a path for the village to mechanically solve the game, which I think is a bit boring.

At the risk of sounding like I'm Drake's PR here, I fully blame him for our latest spate of "who needs action limits, they're for scrubs" rulesets  But no, this thought is at the back of our heads a little. I like mechsolving but I don't always feel it's appropriate for a game, so think it has to be a deliberate decision. But it's also a conversation I've had with Stick which is that I feel games that deliberately decide mechsolving is ok should probably factor that in: if it's going to be claim heavy, introduce some uncertainty or give the Elims a way to dissemble or hide, taint information, generate powerful fakeclaim/claimwar incentives, etc.

I still think the other factor should be that most GMs should actively take lower playercounts into consideration when building a game. It's been clear for the last couple months that the player counts are reliably decreasing. We need to stop trying to get last minute sign-ups from people who can barely be there in the hopes of hitting the minimum and that means actually not making games that need 43+ players to run (not looking at anyone in particular nope.)

[Ashbringer]

I tried okay 

[Kasimir]

6 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I tried okay 

Tbh I've just never stopped trolling Drake over a game that requires at least 99 players  

[Stick.]

Oh vote manip's super swingy - even with smokers or whatever so i agree that it should really just be less prevalent than it is lol

i think making the factional kill take up an action slot is fine (personally I think it should not but dont think it's a huge deal that it sometimes does), but the village mech-locking a game sucks and is boring. Think introducing anti-claim mechanics like an anticlaim vig or an anticlaim RB should disincentivise mass claiming. Or like Kas said, anything that conveys to the players that their action results arent 100% reliable.

And yeah :p. 9p-13p compatible games. Sad but true.

[DrakeMarshall]

Factional kills that aren't restricted by action economy? Strong anticlaim mechanics? Unreliable actions? Flips that only reveal alignment not role? ok nobody asked for that last one but still

If only somebody would run a game like that sometime in the future!

[Aeoryi]

20 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Factional kills that aren't restricted by action economy? Strong anticlaim mechanics? Unreliable actions? Flips that only reveal alignment not role? ok nobody asked for that last one but still

If only somebody would run a game like that sometime in the future!

How about a blackout game that 

Spoiler

Has a normal village faction, a normal Elim faction, and no other roles? And flips show alignment not roles?

Ingenuity right there

 

[The Unknown Ajah]

8 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

How about a blackout game that 

  Hide contents

Has a normal village faction, a normal Elim faction, and no other roles? And flips show alignment not roles?

Ingenuity right there

 

I legit want to do this.

[DrakeMarshall]

smh

I for one would not consider doing that >:P

(behold! this is the way to convince people not to expect shenanigans, by telling them that you would never do shenanigans! naturally, everyone completely believes me, on account of my superlative trustworthiness and reputation for honesty :))

[Aeoryi]

5 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

I legit want to do this.

I know but now all the surprises are ruined

Although I thought of these roles to go with it. This would be so hilarious because everything would probably be land-locked, with the occasional target scan here or there.

Spoiler

Atium misting: You can see your target's target's target, as well as see who the target's target's target's role is every night.

Electrum misting: You can see the person who targeted the person who targeted you's role and identity each night 

Malatium misting: You can see the person who targeted the person who targeted you and their alignment every night.

Chromium misting: You can target a person a night. The person who was targeted by your target will be role-blocked for the next turn.

Bendalloy misting: You can role-block the next action taken by the person who targeted the person who targeted you each night.

Cadmium misting: You can target a person during night turns. The person who targeted the person targeting you that cycle will be role-blocked the next cycle.

Nicrosil misting: You can target a person. That person's target's target will be immune to roleblocks.

Gold misting: You can role-block the next person to the target the person who targets you this night. This role-block will take effect for the next night.

Iron misting: You can protect one person each night. You may not protect the same person twice in a row. This will protect your target's target.

Steel misting: You can scan one person every night. You can learn who targeted the person that night, and the following cycle you will learn who they targeted that previous cycle.

Copper misting: You may smoke yourself or another person. This prevents scans from affecting you next cycle.

Bronze misting: Find the alignment of one person every night, and the role of the person they targeted

Tin misting: You may send an anonymous PM to your target's target each night.

Pewter misting: You role-block the first action to target you each night. This role-block will take into effect the next cycle.

Brass misting: You may prevent an action from reaching the person you target each night. This role-block will take effect next cycle.

Zinc misting: You may prevent preventing an action of your target. This effect will take place next cycle.

 

Additionally, what if two roles/person? This would be role madness, ofc

Feel free to tear apart those rules, but it seems like an interesting concept.

[DrakeMarshall]

It is a fun concept don't mind me I'm just meming

[Aeoryi]

Just now, DrakeMarshall said:

It is a fun concept don't mind me I'm just meming

Which, the Blackout but not blackout or the genius "normal" tyrian falls game?

[DrakeMarshall]

The former

Although the latter is also potentially fun in the sense that role madness games do not always have to be high power games

[Aeoryi]

Just now, DrakeMarshall said:

The former

Although the latter is also potentially fun in the sense that role madness games do not always have to be high power games

Just think. Somewhere within that scan madness is the Elim kill.

Although maybe I'll try to run it eventually. I probably should sign up first (to GM a game) and then see how long that takes.

Probably better as an MR I think, or LG.

[DrakeMarshall]

I'd say the main thing to take into consideration when figuring out who gets what roles in something like that is that people will sometimes work together to avoid the deadlock.

Something that affects your target's target is hard to aim under normal circumstances, but not if you PM your target and convince them to do you a solid and target the person you want. With a bit of teamwork you could turn Atium into a reliable scan.

Or for Malatium you can ask somebody else to target you. Maybe you could even ask a second person to submit to an alignment scan by targeting the first person, and if they didn't it would be at least a little suspicious.

These roles might be more useful and powerful than immediately meets the eye.

Edit: You can encourage/discourage this kind of cooperation by allowing/disallowing PMs. Even with PMs players won't always cooperate and even without them they will probably sometimes find a way to cooperate, but it is at least one of the levers that let you decide how much of that sort of thing you want.

Edited October 20, 2023 by DrakeMarshall

[Aeoryi]

Okay: New and improved roles.

Spoiler

Quote

1. This is role madness

2. Roleblocks only stop one action.

3. Hidden scan results are the same as a lack of scan results. They are also the same as if the scan was blocked.

4. Only one action per turn

5. All roles can only be used during night cycle.

6. Roles without an apparent target show the person affected instead. 

7. Players are not imformed if their ability suceeds

8. PMs are closed

 

...

Atium Misting: Discover the identity and role of your target's target's target. 

Malatium misting: Discover the identity of a person who targetted you and the alignment of a person who targetted them.

Electrum misting: Discover the identity of a person who targeted another person who targetted you. The next cycle, you will discover their role.

Gold misting: Roleblock someone who targets you. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Chromium misting: Roleblock your target's target. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Nicrosil misting: Make your target's target's target immune to all roleblocks this cycle.

Cadmium misting: Roleblock someone who targets another person targetting you. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Bendalloy misting: Roleblock someone who targets another person targetting you. This roleblock will affect the person this cycle.

Bronze misting: Learn the alignment of your target. The next cycle, learn the role of the person they targetted the previous cycle.

Copper misting: Prevent all scans from reaching your target. This protection will affect the person the following cycle.

Tin misting: Create a PM between two players. You do not need to be in this PM.

Pewter misting: Roleblock 1 action targetting you each night.

Steel misting: Learn the role of your target. Learn the identity of their next target in the following cycle.

Iron misting: Protect your target's target. You cannot target the same player twice. You cannot target yourself. Attempting to target a player who targets you will work.

Zinc misting: Roleblock one of the actions that target your target next cycle.

Brass misting: Prevent an action targetting your target from being roleblocked. This prevention will take efect the following cycle.

Aluminum misting: Any information regarding your identity or role (not including alignment) will be blocked. Any information regarding your target's identity will be blocked and not shown either. (You cannot target anyone, however)

 

...

Malatium has been reworked to show the alignment of the player who targets a player targetting the user, and instead shows who that alignment person targetted.

Electrum still shows role+identity

Steel and bronze both give instant info (role/alignment) and give additional info the following cycle on the same scan. This is to discourage quick-claiming.

Zinc and pewter have been swapped for flavour reasons (which speaking of, I have a theme in mind for this game; it should make sense).

Aluminum now exists to make scans less certain.

Only atium and nicrosil affect your target's target's target. 

5 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I'd say the main thing to take into consideration when figuring out who gets what roles in something like that is that people will sometimes work together to avoid the deadlock.

Something that affects your target's target is hard to aim under normal circumstances, but not if you PM your target and convince them to do you a solid and target the person you want. With a bit of teamwork you could turn Atium into a reliable scan.

Or for Malatium you can ask somebody else to target you. Maybe you could even ask a second person to submit to an alignment scan by targeting the first person, and if they didn't it would be at least a little suspicious.

These roles might be more useful and powerful than immediately meets the eye.

Edit: You can encourage/discourage this kind of cooperation by allowing/disallowing PMs. Even with PMs players won't always cooperate and even without them they will probably sometimes find a way to cooperate, but it is at least one of the levers that let you decide how much of that sort of thing you want.

Turning atium into a reliable scan is quite hard already. Say, if you try to coordinate it, it only takes one aluminum misting or one coppercloud order from the previous cycle to stop it. Or you could get gold-blocked or bendalloy blocked if you aren't careful. But atium having such a long chain actually makes it more easy to avoid all these rb countermeasures.

 Malatium has been fixed. It should also be noted that you can't tell if someone targetted you or not (they don't ned to publically declare their target) and there could easily be another person targetting them that you could target  by accident and show up on the malat scan.

PMs on/off will make a big difference to the game. Its essentially completely different game without pms. I think I am leaning more towards PM open, since I want people to actually try to utilize these roles to their fullest.

I think ultimately the distro especially on elim side influences the game a lot.

[Kasimir]

8 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Factional kills that aren't restricted by action economy? Strong anticlaim mechanics? Unreliable actions? Flips that only reveal alignment not role? ok nobody asked for that last one but still

If only somebody would run a game like that sometime in the future!

Indeed, what sort of genius depraved mind would come up with such a game, Drake???

:EYES:

[DrakeMarshall]

15 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

Okay: New and improved roles.

  Reveal hidden contents

Atium Misting: Discover the identity and role of your target's target's target. 

Malatium misting: Discover the identity of a person who targetted you and the alignment of a person who targetted them.

Electrum misting: Discover the identity of a person who targeted another person who targetted you. The next cycle, you will discover their role.

Gold misting: Roleblock someone who targets you. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Chromium misting: Roleblock your target's target. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Nicrosil misting: Make your target's target's target immune to all roleblocks this cycle.

Cadmium misting: Roleblock someone who targets another person targetting you. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Bendalloy misting: Roleblock someone who targets another person targetting you. This roleblock will affect the person this cycle.

Bronze misting: Learn the alignment of your target. The next cycle, learn the role of the person they targetted the previous cycle.

Copper misting: Prevent all scans from reaching your target. This protection will affect the person the following cycle.

Tin misting: Create a PM between two players. You do not need to be in this PM.

Pewter misting: Roleblock 1 action targetting you each night.

Steel misting: Learn the role of your target. Learn the identity of their next target in the following cycle.

Iron misting: Protect your target's target. You cannot target the same player twice. You cannot target yourself. Attempting to target a player who targets you will work.

Zinc misting: Roleblock one of the actions that target your target next cycle.

Brass misting: Prevent an action targetting your target from being roleblocked. This prevention will take efect the following cycle.

Aluminum misting: Any information regarding your identity or role (not including alignment) will be blocked. Any information regarding your target's identity will be blocked and not shown either. (You cannot target anyone, however)

 

...

Malatium has been reworked to show the alignment of the player who targets a player targetting the user, and instead shows who that alignment person targetted.

Electrum still shows role+identity

Steel and bronze both give instant info (role/alignment) and give additional info the following cycle on the same scan. This is to discourage quick-claiming.

Zinc and pewter have been swapped for flavour reasons (which speaking of, I have a theme in mind for this game; it should make sense).

Aluminum now exists to make scans less certain.

Only atium and nicrosil affect your target's target's target. 

Turning atium into a reliable scan is quite hard already. Say, if you try to coordinate it, it only takes one aluminum misting or one coppercloud order from the previous cycle to stop it. Or you could get gold-blocked or bendalloy blocked if you aren't careful. But atium having such a long chain actually makes it more easy to avoid all these rb countermeasures.

 Malatium has been fixed. It should also be noted that you can't tell if someone targetted you or not (they don't ned to publically declare their target) and there could easily be another person targetting them that you could target  by accident and show up on the malat scan.

PMs on/off will make a big difference to the game. Its essentially completely different game without pms. I think I am leaning more towards PM open, since I want people to actually try to utilize these roles to their fullest.

I think ultimately the distro especially on elim side influences the game a lot.

Yes the distro will be pretty important! I believe in principle these roles allow for multiple interesting distro options though.

It's a small change but I like this iteration of malatium very much.

14 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Indeed, what sort of genius depraved mind would come up with such a game, Drake???

:EYES:

Good question  Just change the puncutation a bit and you answer your own question