The Art of Game Creation

[Aeoryi]

6 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Yes the distro will be pretty important! I believe in principle these roles allow for multiple interesting distro options though.

It's a small change but I like this iteration of malatium very much.

Good question  Just change the puncutation a bit and you answer your own question

Very true. I think that if I was running this game I would definitely want a co-GM or something, due to the high amount of oppertunities to screw up. 

Uh- okay- this might sound dumb, but I need someone to tell me what the metal plate in one of the caverns (Malatium or electrum ones to be exact) says exactly since my library doesn't have the Hero of Ages anymore. Yeah. The flavor will probably be a group of obligators that are working in the cave and some of them are defectants (hence why everyone has allomancy), and the loyal obligators must rid the traitors from themself before they incur the lord ruler's wrath. This was the only way that I could get the "newer" metals to be explained in the game without having another post-catacendre scandrial game (and even then there wouldn't be malatium and atium).

Trying to figure out order of action is a nightmare. 

Currently, rules are looking in favor with pms open

 

 

[Aeoryi]

Okay: slight issues

Certain roles only benefit one side, mainly iron and copper, certain metals don't exist Era 1 (bendalloy, Cadmium), but without them there aren't enough role-blocks

Also, role-block roles are basically discouraged from a village standpoint

The temporal metals are either to easy to use or too hard, depending on whether PMs on or off (off is where I'm leaning)

List of good (balanced) metals: (some are changed)

Spoiler

Malatium: Find the identity of someone who targets you and the alignment of a player who targets them.

Atium: Find the identity and role of your target's target's target.

Electrum: Find the identity of a person who targets you and the role of someone who targets them.

Gold: Role-block one person that targets you this cycle. This will take into effect next cycle.

Pewter: Role-block one action that targets you each night. (Cannot be turned off)

Tin: Find the identity of one of the people who visits your target and the number of total people who visited your target, excluding you.

Bronze: Find the alignment of your target and who they targeted 

Steel: Find the role of your target and who they targeted 

Brass: Prevent one role-blocked action that also targets your target.

Zinc: Role-block one action that targets your target.

Aluminum: Scans will not return role or identity information on you. You may target a player. This does nothing, but can help other roles.

List of metals that need to be fixed:

Spoiler

Iron: Protect your target's target. 

- as there is only one NK this is only v! beneficial

- can coordinate well with others to protect same person many times

 

Copper: Prevent scans from reaching your target. Effect starts next cycle.

- too Elim based

- V!copper would be discouraged from using ability

 

Chromium: Role-block your target's target, this takes effect next cycle

- discouraged V! Since it could cause problems for V more than e

 

Nicrosil: Make your target's target's target immune to rbs

- seems hard to aim and unnecessary from V!standpoint, from a e! standpoint it is too hard to use

 

Cadmium: Role-block someone that targets another player targeting you, takes effect next cycle

- too hard to aim accuratly for V, e could cause damage with it

- Cadmium is not a era1 metal 

 

Bendalloy: role-block someone who targets another person who targets you this cycle

- really hard to aim

- only e! Beneficial

- not era1 metal

 

 

Any suggestions for how to fix the bad metals?

 

[DrakeMarshall]

Sorry but I got Hero of Ages from the library too

On 10/22/2023 at 3:43 PM, Aeoryi said:

Okay: slight issues

Certain roles only benefit one side, mainly iron and copper, certain metals don't exist Era 1 (bendalloy, Cadmium), but without them there aren't enough role-blocks

Also, role-block roles are basically discouraged from a village standpoint

The temporal metals are either to easy to use or too hard, depending on whether PMs on or off (off is where I'm leaning)

Fair yes, alas game building is very very iterative

I will argue slightly that roleblocks actually seem pretty okay from a village standpoint, because yes they do confuse and deadlock things but they might also block the elim kill, and sacrificing the usefulness of village roles to block elim kills is imo a pretty good trade actually. Supposing you inundated everything with roleblocks, the village still has the vote which is their main and best tool for making progress anyways, the elims are the ones who are stuck. (Of course, you have roles that grant roleblock immunity, and it would be fairly intuitive for the elims to have some access to them. In which case, yes one could argue that roleblocks are basically discouraged from a village standpoint, because it is bound to impact the village more than it does the elims... At least as long as an elim with that role is still in fact alive!)

I think if you want targeting to be indirect in this game, then something that comes with the territory is abilities being a bit harder to use than what you would see in an average game, but some are certainly harder than others and it'd be fair to want things more consistent.

Anyways. Have some more crazed ramblings about game design:

On 10/22/2023 at 3:43 PM, Aeoryi said:

Any suggestions for how to fix the bad metals?

Spoiler

Iron: Iron is situationally useful for the elims in that it can be used for wounded gazelle gambiting, but yes in general you are right it's pretty village-coded. It's not the worst thing to have roles that slant towards one alignment but I can respect wanting to avoid it if possible. While there are probably many ways to fix this two that I can think of are 1) create some kind of coinshot type role or 2) make iron both protect and roleblock the affected individual (this might actually solve several of your problems at once, come to think of it -- it means you'll have another era 1 friendly roleblock, and the double-sided nature of protecting and roleblocking the same target might make coordination somewhat less beneficial -- that said, this is a decently strong ability).

Copper: Copper has always been elim-coded unfortunately It's kind of hard to make an ability that obscures information not favor the informed minority, and tbf if you can find a way to pull it off I'd be quite interested to see how it works. Still, your setup has role scans as well as alignment scans, so there is at least a slight village application of this ability, insofar as you are worried about the elims scanning people's roles.

Chromium: See previous statement about roleblocks, I suppose. I feel it's usefulness to the village depends on whether the elims have access to roleblock immunity or not. Chromium is hard to aim but tbf if you blocked the elim kill with it you could do some detective work to untangle what happened and who targeted whom, and assuming you trust everyone's accounts (:P) you should be able to catch an elim that way.

Nicrosil: Agreed that this is mostly hard to use for the village. I'd argue it's actually really quite good for the elims though since there are potentially a good few roleblocks flying around, and they have a doc where they can actually coordinate and figure out how to make whoever is submitting the NK immune to roleblocks. Still, if anything this means it's very elim-coded, which is something you're trying to avoid. Hmmmm. I'd almost suggest just making this particular ability impact the target directly rather than the target's target -- the elims already have a doc so they might as well just get to pick the target directly, whereas for the village this change makes it a lot easier for a villager to actually use the ability beneficially. I realize that this may run contrary to the theme of the game though so fair enough if you aren't feeling it.

Cadmium/Bendalloy: These abilities are pretty interesting although agreed that they are pretty hard to use. I suppose one way you could balance out the fact that it's hard to aim is by making it hit more than a single person at once? Cadmium and bendalloy are both AOE metals in the stories so it would kind of fit flavorfully at least. Not sure where that puts things with overall balance. Anyways, if you want to include them, I think you could handwave the fact that they aren't era 1 and say the Lord Ruler knew all the metals since he was a Sliver of Preservation and such and just hoarded the knowledge and kept it a secret (I confess I don't know what tech is required to mine cadmium or if the Final Empire level tech was sufficient for the task, but on the bright side, probably most other SE players don't know the answer to that either so they won't be able to contradict whatever you decide ). But you likely have plenty of roles even without them so I'd say it's a matter of preference.

 

[Aeoryi]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:52 PM, DrakeMarshall said:

Sorry but I got Hero of Ages from the library too

Fair yes, alas game building is very very iterative

I will argue slightly that roleblocks actually seem pretty okay from a village standpoint, because yes they do confuse and deadlock things but they might also block the elim kill, and sacrificing the usefulness of village roles to block elim kills is imo a pretty good trade actually. Supposing you inundated everything with roleblocks, the village still has the vote which is their main and best tool for making progress anyways, the elims are the ones who are stuck. (Of course, you have roles that grant roleblock immunity, and it would be fairly intuitive for the elims to have some access to them. In which case, yes one could argue that roleblocks are basically discouraged from a village standpoint, because it is bound to impact the village more than it does the elims... At least as long as an elim with that role is still in fact alive!)

I think if you want targeting to be indirect in this game, then something that comes with the territory is abilities being a bit harder to use than what you would see in an average game, but some are certainly harder than others and it'd be fair to want things more consistent.

Anyways. Have some more crazed ramblings about game design:

  Reveal hidden contents

Iron: Iron is situationally useful for the elims in that it can be used for wounded gazelle gambiting, but yes in general you are right it's pretty village-coded. It's not the worst thing to have roles that slant towards one alignment but I can respect wanting to avoid it if possible. While there are probably many ways to fix this two that I can think of are 1) create some kind of coinshot type role or 2) make iron both protect and roleblock the affected individual (this might actually solve several of your problems at once, come to think of it -- it means you'll have another era 1 friendly roleblock, and the double-sided nature of protecting and roleblocking the same target might make coordination somewhat less beneficial -- that said, this is a decently strong ability).

Copper: Copper has always been elim-coded unfortunately It's kind of hard to make an ability that obscures information not favor the informed minority, and tbf if you can find a way to pull it off I'd be quite interested to see how it works. Still, your setup has role scans as well as alignment scans, so there is at least a slight village application of this ability, insofar as you are worried about the elims scanning people's roles.

Chromium: See previous statement about roleblocks, I suppose. I feel it's usefulness to the village depends on whether the elims have access to roleblock immunity or not. Chromium is hard to aim but tbf if you blocked the elim kill with it you could do some detective work to untangle what happened and who targeted whom, and assuming you trust everyone's accounts (:P) you should be able to catch an elim that way.

Nicrosil: Agreed that this is mostly hard to use for the village. I'd argue it's actually really quite good for the elims though since there are potentially a good few roleblocks flying around, and they have a doc where they can actually coordinate and figure out how to make whoever is submitting the NK immune to roleblocks. Still, if anything this means it's very elim-coded, which is something you're trying to avoid. Hmmmm. I'd almost suggest just making this particular ability impact the target directly rather than the target's target -- the elims already have a doc so they might as well just get to pick the target directly, whereas for the village this change makes it a lot easier for a villager to actually use the ability beneficially. I realize that this may run contrary to the theme of the game though so fair enough if you aren't feeling it.

Cadmium/Bendalloy: These abilities are pretty interesting although agreed that they are pretty hard to use. I suppose one way you could balance out the fact that it's hard to aim is by making it hit more than a single person at once? Cadmium and bendalloy are both AOE metals in the stories so it would kind of fit flavorfully at least. Not sure where that puts things with overall balance. Anyways, if you want to include them, I think you could handwave the fact that they aren't era 1 and say the Lord Ruler knew all the metals since he was a Sliver of Preservation and such and just hoarded the knowledge and kept it a secret (I confess I don't know what tech is required to mine cadmium or if the Final Empire level tech was sufficient for the task, but on the bright side, probably most other SE players don't know the answer to that either so they won't be able to contradict whatever you decide ). But you likely have plenty of roles even without them so I'd say it's a matter of preference.

 

Okay, I did some stuff:

Spoiler

Iron: I took your suggestion and added a role-block to it. It still gets your target's target for both the protect and role-block, but has a role-block that takes effect next cycle. This can be very detrimental if you're just waving it around wildly, but it is now useful to elims.

Copper I somehow made into an anti-claim role. It now allows you to target someone, and role-blocks scans that target that target, but sends the results of the scans to you. This is useful for elims (both antiscan and partial scan) and village (you don't need to trust the scanner's alignment). 

Chromium is still a target's target delayed role-block, but it now tells you if it triggers the next day, similar to gold.

Nicrosil now allows you to target a person to see if they were role-blocked, and if so who role-blocked them. This is useful in a game where half the roles are scanners and the other half are disruption roles.

Cadmium: I felt like the Aoe idea was cool, but I still needed anti-role-blcok roles besides aluminum and brass. So now, Cadmium gives everyone who targets a random person (only one person who targets you, but affects everyone who targets them) role-block immunity the following cycle. It can be turned off as an action. Cadmium will also tell the user the net amount of people who received their immunity.

Bendalloy: I liked the Aoe idea again, but I needed to have it be worth the trouble. So now, Bendalloy gives a delayed role-block to everyone who targets a random person who targeted you, in a similar manner to cadmium. The role-block takes effect next cycle, but you are told all the actions that it blocks. It can be turned off or on as an action.

Additionally, the following metals were changed:

Steel: Now shows your target's target's role.

Bronze: Now shows your target's target's alignment. I don't like bronze, it feels too easy to use right now.

 

[DrakeMarshall]

Because there are never enough Tyrian with a twist setups

The costs are back-of-the-napkin sort of figures and yes I might run simulations to fine-tune them in the event of actually running this. But if u think the value estimations of ur favorite and/or least-favorite roles is all wrong and u want to tell me so then go ahead i suppose >:P

[Aeoryi]

1 hour ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Because there are never enough Tyrian with a twist setups

The costs are back-of-the-napkin sort of figures and yes I might run simulations to fine-tune them in the event of actually running this. But if u think the value estimations of ur favorite and/or least-favorite roles is all wrong and u want to tell me so then go ahead i suppose >:P

This seems like Capitalist Tyrian falls

[Kasimir]

2 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Because there are never enough Tyrian with a twist setups

The costs are back-of-the-napkin sort of figures and yes I might run simulations to fine-tune them in the event of actually running this. But if u think the value estimations of ur favorite and/or least-favorite roles is all wrong and u want to tell me so then go ahead i suppose >:P

Elegant tbh. Would love to see this in action and play >:P So glad you finally made this sir!

[DrakeMarshall]

2 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

This seems like Capitalist Tyrian falls

in Capitalist Tyrian Falls you have to pay subscription fees on your vials of metal to get access to power roles and if you want you can risk paying lower rates on the black market but in that case there's a chance you get metal poisoning side effects from impure alloys also u can bribe the elendel constabulary to kill everyone

[Kasimir]

12 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

in Capitalist Tyrian Falls you have to pay subscription fees on your vials of metal to get access to power roles and if you want you can risk paying lower rates on the black market but in that case there's a chance you get metal poisoning side effects from impure alloys also u can bribe the elendel constabulary to kill everyone

Sounds like crypto fevermeme sir >:P 

[The Unknown Ajah]

34 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

in Capitalist Tyrian Falls you have to pay subscription fees on your vials of metal to get access to power roles and if you want you can risk paying lower rates on the black market but in that case there's a chance you get metal poisoning side effects from impure alloys also u can bribe the elendel constabulary to kill everyone

In Capitalist Tyrian Falls, roles are metal monopolies, and the player with the roles can ask whatever price they want. Whoever has the most money at the end wins. But two players can choose to join together to make a corporation. If a corporation is made, those two players immediately win and everyone else loses.

[Amanuensis]

Yeah personally I’ve had enough of Capitalism in the real world, thanks but no thanks

[DrakeMarshall]

we routinely have games be flavored as the bad guys infiltrating the good guys and replacing some of them, I figured why not actually let them do that

then role and distro analysis isn't an exercise of guessing what the GM would do, it's actually a part of solving and something the village can use

and the elims get to choose their own team composition basically

they basically get a heist planning montage before the game starts

the costs and stuff is just so that it's balanced and there are actual tradeoffs involved

[The Unknown Ajah]

@DrakeMarshall cause who needs sleep.

The coinshot feels a little bit to cheep to remove. Should probably be equivalent to the Seeker, or one in either direction. 

Mistborn feels a little under priced. Average is 8.125, so 8 is probably a slightly better price, but it's not too far off.

The elims can currently make the game basically roleless (leaving only Smokers and Tineyes), which could be very powerful for certain team comps. Not sure if you want them to be able to do that.

[Aeoryi]

41 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

we routinely have games be flavored as the bad guys infiltrating the good guys and replacing some of them, I figured why not actually let them do that

then role and distro analysis isn't an exercise of guessing what the GM would do, it's actually a part of solving and something the village can use

and the elims get to choose their own team composition basically

they basically get a heist planning montage before the game starts

the costs and stuff is just so that it's balanced and there are actual tradeoffs involved

It's a cool concept, but I feel like it'll need to be real balanced. 

Also, what's the current stance on redirects?

[DrakeMarshall]

smhhh you guys these are back-of-the-napkin figures not sacred numbers (yet) !!

2 hours ago, The Known Novel said:

@DrakeMarshall cause who needs sleep.

The coinshot feels a little bit to cheep to remove. Should probably be equivalent to the Seeker, or one in either direction. 

Mistborn feels a little under priced. Average is 8.125, so 8 is probably a slightly better price, but it's not too far off.

The elims can currently make the game basically roleless (leaving only Smokers and Tineyes), which could be very powerful for certain team comps. Not sure if you want them to be able to do that.

I'd contend that Seekers are usually substantively better than Coinshots in any setup that isn't pretty mechanics heavy (in really mechanically crunchy games, I've been on both sides of situations where the village knows who the bad guys are but for whatever reason can't kill them fast enough using just the vote and badly needed a coinshot -- but in games that aren't brimming with shenanigans, you can safely assume that knowing who the bad guys are is a pretty short step away from beating the bad guys). Like sure a coinshot is clearly better if the person using it is endowed with flawless or near-flawless accuracy but when a coinshot misses it's not great for the village and when a seeker "misses" they still get a confirmed villager out of it which is still actually really really good. Seeing as there are in fact more villagers than elims the fact that a Seeker does something way more useful when it targets a villager is nothing to sneeze at. I could possibly arrive at the conclusion that removing a Coinshot should cost 5 rather than 4 points, however.

Mistborns are basically gambling on stilts.  As you've noted, you're getting a slightly better overall value by taking mistborn, but you're sacrificing the predictability of being able to do any one thing reliably.

I do want the elims to be able to make the game nearly roleless if they decide to go that route. All-vanilla games are perfectly respectable! And assuming sensible team sizes, I'm not exactly sure how an all-vanilla game would qualify as very powerful for any one side. In any case, it is not all-vanilla, since the elims won't quite be able to afford that. And when you think about it, the few remaining village power roles will be essentially confirmed village once the village realizes what the distro is (mind, being "confirmed village" isn't quite as helpful when there's no Lurcher around to keep you alive after you claim, is it but it still lets those people claim and potentially avert an ML if a need arises). There are complexities but overall yes I do want the option to be on the table if the elims feel they want it.

2 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

It's a cool concept, but I feel like it'll need to be real balanced. 

Also, what's the current stance on redirects?

As all things should be

How do you mean?

[Aeoryi]

12 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

smhhh you guys these are back-of-the-napkin figures not sacred numbers (yet) !!

I'd contend that Seekers are usually substantively better than Coinshots in any setup that isn't pretty mechanics heavy (in really mechanically crunchy games, I've been on both sides of situations where the village knows who the bad guys are but for whatever reason can't kill them fast enough using just the vote and badly needed a coinshot -- but in games that aren't brimming with shenanigans, you can safely assume that knowing who the bad guys are is a pretty short step away from beating the bad guys). Like sure a coinshot is clearly better if the person using it is endowed with flawless or near-flawless accuracy but when a coinshot misses it's not great for the village and when a seeker "misses" they still get a confirmed villager out of it which is still actually really really good. Seeing as there are in fact more villagers than elims the fact that a Seeker does something way more useful when it targets a villager is nothing to sneeze at. I could possibly arrive at the conclusion that removing a Coinshot should cost 5 rather than 4 points, however.

Mistborns are basically gambling on stilts.  As you've noted, you're getting a slightly better overall value by taking mistborn, but you're sacrificing the predictability of being able to do any one thing reliably.

I do want the elims to be able to make the game nearly roleless if they decide to go that route. All-vanilla games are perfectly respectable! And assuming sensible team sizes, I'm not exactly sure how an all-vanilla game would qualify as very powerful for any one side. In any case, it is not all-vanilla, since the elims won't quite be able to afford that. And when you think about it, the few remaining village power roles will be essentially confirmed village once the village realizes what the distro is (mind, being "confirmed village" isn't quite as helpful when there's no Lurcher around to keep you alive after you claim, is it but it still lets those people claim and potentially avert an ML if a need arises). There are complexities but overall yes I do want the option to be on the table if the elims feel they want it.

As all things should be

How do you mean?

What's like, the general guideline for redirects (would mega arson + that rule set I posted earlier + redirects + scans be too much)?

[DrakeMarshall]

21 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

What's like, the general guideline for redirects (would mega arson + that rule set I posted earlier + redirects + scans be too much)?

Personally, I rather like redirects

They can pretty easily fit into a lot of setups, I'd say.

In terms of balance, redirects can be decently strong. The main thing I'd compare them to is roleblocks. Being able to turn an enemy's actions against them is just plain stronger than just being able to block them. That said, redirects can sometimes be a fair sight harder to aim than roleblocks, particularly if you aren't allowed to just redirect somebody onto themselves, or if it's something a little more complicated like a transporter type role. For instance if you want to redirect an elim kill back at the elims you've effectively got to find two elims, one to redirect from (and more specifically the one who is submitting the elim kill that night, not just any elim will do) and the other to redirect to. Potentially difficult but also rewarding.

In a game with both roleblocks and redirects, you'll probably have to decide whether you do roleblocks or redirects first in the order of actions. (Or you could RNG it or something that works too ) It's largely a matter of personal preference tbh. I've recently been sold on doing roleblocks first since it means roleblocks are still sometimes better than redirects cuz they get higher priority.

...I think that's all I can think of to say about redirects and thus concludes my TED Talk

[Aeoryi]

12 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Personally, I rather like redirects

They can pretty easily fit into a lot of setups, I'd say.

In terms of balance, redirects can be decently strong. The main thing I'd compare them to is roleblocks. Being able to turn an enemy's actions against them is just plain stronger than just being able to block them. That said, redirects can sometimes be a fair sight harder to aim than roleblocks, particularly if you aren't allowed to just redirect somebody onto themselves, or if it's something a little more complicated like a transporter type role. For instance if you want to redirect an elim kill back at the elims you've effectively got to find two elims, one to redirect from (and more specifically the one who is submitting the elim kill that night, not just any elim will do) and the other to redirect to. Potentially difficult but also rewarding.

In a game with both roleblocks and redirects, you'll probably have to decide whether you do roleblocks or redirects first in the order of actions. (Or you could RNG it or something that works too ) It's largely a matter of personal preference tbh. I've recently been sold on doing roleblocks first since it means roleblocks are still sometimes better than redirects cuz they get higher priority.

...I think that's all I can think of to say about redirects and thus concludes my TED Talk

Which would be better?

Option A:

Spoiler

Duralumin: Copy an action that targets you onto the caster. Note: You still receive the action as well. 

Nicrosil: Target two players. An action targeting one or your targets will be redirected to the other target, and as well as the other way. You may not target yourself.

Atium: Target a player. An action targeting you will be redirected into your target. This effect may also be reversed in order to receive the actions targeting your target.

Malatium: Target a player to see if they were role blocked, and If so, by whom. If your target was roleblocked instead, you receive information of where the effect landed.

Brass: Grant RB and Redirect immunity to your target. Upon doing this, you also receive the same immunity.

Option B:

Spoiler

Brass: Any action targeting your target will receive rb and redirection immunity.

Duralumin: Target a player to duplicate any action targeting you onto them as well.

Nicrosil: Redirect an action targeting your target to yourself.

Atium: Redirect an action targeting your target to your target's target

Malatium: Target a player to see if they were interfered with. If it is a role-block, you will receive the identity of the person who role-blocked them. If it is a redirect, you will see who it ended up on. You are unable to differentiate the identity scan results. (You recieve, "_____ was/was not interfered with this cycle. 《If it was interference》 <identity> was involved with the interference.")

 

[DrakeMarshall]

I like option B slightly better in that the rules feel a little cleaner, but they both ought to work.

Flavor-wise, is there a particular reason why the enhancement metals function as redirects? Is fine if not I know I can be weird about making all the roles more flavorful than sensible

[The Unknown Ajah]

14 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I could possibly arrive at the conclusion that removing a Coinshot should cost 5 rather than 4 points, however.

That's what I was getting at. They're called Terminal Seekers for a reason. They're pretty close to even, but most would probably make a case for Coinshots being worse, so in either direction. 

14 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

do want the elims to be able to make the game nearly roleless if they decide to go that route. All-vanilla games are perfectly respectable! And assuming sensible team sizes, I'm not exactly sure how an all-vanilla game would qualify as very powerful for any one side. In any case, it is not all-vanilla, since the elims won't quite be able to afford that. And when you think about it, the few remaining village power roles will be essentially confirmed village once the village realizes what the distro is (mind, being "confirmed village" isn't quite as helpful when there's no Lurcher around to keep you alive after you claim, is it but it still lets those people claim and potentially avert an ML if a need arises). There are complexities but overall yes I do want the option to be on the table if the elims feel they want it.

I kinda misphrased the tone of that end comment, it was less of a suggestion and more of a genuine question. My logic on it being pretty powerful for certain teams is because a team that's good at making fakeclaims and powerwolfing can pretty easily (well, not easily, but shed a lot of confusion on it) hide the absence of roles. Most teams and most tactics it wouldn't matter too much though.

[Aeoryi]

5 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I like option B slightly better in that the rules feel a little cleaner, but they both ought to work.

Flavor-wise, is there a particular reason why the enhancement metals function as redirects? Is fine if not I know I can be weird about making all the roles more flavorful than sensible

The internal metals function as base

The external metals function as utility

The enhancement metals function as disruption. Pushing ones are role-blocks, pulling ones are redirects.

The temporal metals function as scanners and utility.

[DrakeMarshall]

On 11/10/2023 at 4:14 PM, Aeoryi said:

The internal metals function as base

The external metals function as utility

The enhancement metals function as disruption. Pushing ones are role-blocks, pulling ones are redirects.

The temporal metals function as scanners and utility.

ohhh clever you I didn't notice that, cheers

On 11/10/2023 at 4:02 PM, The Known Novel said:

That's what I was getting at. They're called Terminal Seekers for a reason. They're pretty close to even, but most would probably make a case for Coinshots being worse, so in either direction. 

I kinda misphrased the tone of that end comment, it was less of a suggestion and more of a genuine question. My logic on it being pretty powerful for certain teams is because a team that's good at making fakeclaims and powerwolfing can pretty easily (well, not easily, but shed a lot of confusion on it) hide the absence of roles. Most teams and most tactics it wouldn't matter too much though.

well if they claim to have roles when there actually aren't many roles then from the village's view at face value that implies the elims must have spent some of their points on having roles of their own, so people with roles will automatically be in a suspect pool and the elims will have just placed themselves in that suspect pool by pretending to have roles and then if one of them dies and flips without a role the sham will be rather ruined

if they are good enough at powerwolfing to play the confusion and pull it off anyway, I'd say they deserve the advantage they get from doing so

[Aeoryi]

6 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

ohhh clever you I didn't notice that, cheers

well if they claim to have roles when there actually aren't many roles then from the village's view at face value that implies the elims must have spent some of their points on having roles of their own, so people with roles will automatically be in a suspect pool and the elims will have just placed themselves in that suspect pool by pretending to have roles and then if one of them dies and flips without a role the sham will be rather ruined

if they are good enough at powerwolfing to play the confusion and pull it off anyway, I'd say they deserve the advantage they get from doing so

I think maybe having more roles might help. Otherwise, there's clearly ones you have to prioritize. Augur, seer, or maybe even Oracle might help.

I think Striker's MR 62(?) In the shadow of ash had a cool unsnapped mechanic, that might help.

[Aeoryi]

I am looking for feedback on this idea, it is very rough, but could be interesting:

Spoiler

MECHANICS:

There is an execution each cycle. 1 vote minimum. Ties do not kill anyone, but take away all of their breath and randomly distribute it amongst the voters involved in the tie. 

 

Kills are not differentiated. Survivals, however, are. Returned survivals will be, “____ was killed but Returned!” or “____ was attacked, but saved!”

 

Each player starts out with 1 breath. A player who has 0 breath gains the Drab role. You cannot go beneath 0 breath, attempting to do so will result in a failed action. If they go above 0 breath, one loses the Drab role. A player is told how many breaths they have at the start of a cycle.

 

The breath mechanic works so that way no breaths are ever lost. Upon a player dying, their breath will be given to a player who voted for them recently. If they were not voted on, then it will go to the player they voted for most recently, and if they did not vote on anyone, the breath will go to the person who killed them.

 

A player may do any of the following things with breath:

Use 2 breaths to role-block a player, returning one breath to the caster and one breath to the target,

Use 2 breaths to protect a player, returning a breath to the caster and the target. If they were attacked, the breath goes to the attacker and the target,

Give all their breath to another player,

Use 1 breath to move their vote Anonymously, returning the breath to the person they vote for,

Use 4 breaths to kill a player, distributing the breath like normal kills.

Any non-returned player has a 33% chance of returning on any given kill, and gain the Returned role, losing their breath as if they had died, and instead gaining a single use divine breath. 

ROLES:

Returned: A player obtains this role by having survived a kill. They are Unable to give breath, are Unable to be role-blocked, are Unable to use breath, will die after 2 cycles unless they receive a breath from someone. They cannot receive more than one breath at a time (they give back all the unused breath) and can sacrifice their life in order to protect a player or role-block them.

Drab: A player becomes a drab by reaching 0 breaths. They have several unique properties. They will die in a tie between a themselves and a player with breath. Drabs are unable to return. A Drab's vote also holds half the value of a normal vote, meaning that it will take 2 drabs to effectively make 1 vote.

Scholar: The five scholars (note: may not be 5 scholar roles in-game) are amongst the nalithis commonwealth. They start out with 2 breath, and are able to give out certain amounts of breath to others, instead of all of their breath.

 

It's all about the economy. This is designed for a QF, btw.

[DrakeMarshall]

Well I think it could be fun

Question - if you kill someone who hasn’t voted or been voted on by the rules does that mean you get all of your 4 breath back? If the answer is yes then in a way that’s kind of an inbuilt discount on killing inactives tbhhh

it’s got a significant RNG element with the Returning 1/3 of the time that means RNG could have a pretty big impact depending on where the die fall but that can be alright just something to be aware of

And I mean anyways in many cases if you Return you’ll still die after 2 cycles unless somebody gives you a breath or you’re an elim and you get one by submitting the kill but sometimes you’ll die after 2 cycles

Note that I suppose the powerfulness of Returning is technically a function of how many players there are cuz if there’s only 5 players the game is only gonna last 2-3 cycles total so being alive for 2 extra cycles is basically the same as just never dying whereas if there’s something crazy like 34+ players the game will go on for ages and 2 cycles is a drop in the bucket :P. Those are the extremes but yeah, total player count affects things.

Anyways I like Nalthis setups