The Art of Game Creation

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I have a couple of thoughts I’d like to share that aren’t restricted to any one game, but address some SE trends. Something for folks to keep in mind when they are working on new games. Definitely interested in hearing what other folks think about these things.

First, I think GMs should consider whether vote manip is appropriate for their game, rather than including it by default. Thematically it fits Mistborn settings quite well, and since that’s where SE started, it makes sense that it’s prevalent. But in some ways it runs against the general idea of mafia; the elims get the NK and the village gets the exe. With vote manip, the exe is no longer as reliable of a village tool.

And second, I think GMs should consider whether the elim kill should use up an action, in games with limited actions. This seems to be the default rule in most games. In some games this is certainly appropriate, and in fact creates interesting choices for both the village and the elims. Other times it leads to underpowered elim teams and a path for the village to mechanically solve the game, which I think is a bit boring.

Just some food for thought.

[Kasimir he/him]

3 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

And second, I think GMs should consider whether the elim kill should use up an action, in games with limited actions. This seems to be the default rule in most games. In some games this is certainly appropriate, and in fact creates interesting choices for both the village and the elims. Other times it leads to underpowered elim teams and a path for the village to mechanically solve the game, which I think is a bit boring.

At the risk of sounding like I'm Drake's PR here, I fully blame him for our latest spate of "who needs action limits, they're for scrubs" rulesets  But no, this thought is at the back of our heads a little. I like mechsolving but I don't always feel it's appropriate for a game, so think it has to be a deliberate decision. But it's also a conversation I've had with Stick which is that I feel games that deliberately decide mechsolving is ok should probably factor that in: if it's going to be claim heavy, introduce some uncertainty or give the Elims a way to dissemble or hide, taint information, generate powerful fakeclaim/claimwar incentives, etc.

I still think the other factor should be that most GMs should actively take lower playercounts into consideration when building a game. It's been clear for the last couple months that the player counts are reliably decreasing. We need to stop trying to get last minute sign-ups from people who can barely be there in the hopes of hitting the minimum and that means actually not making games that need 43+ players to run (not looking at anyone in particular nope.)

[Ashbringer he/him]

I tried okay 

[Kasimir he/him]

6 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I tried okay 

Tbh I've just never stopped trolling Drake over a game that requires at least 99 players  

[Stick. she/her]

Oh vote manip's super swingy - even with smokers or whatever so i agree that it should really just be less prevalent than it is lol

i think making the factional kill take up an action slot is fine (personally I think it should not but dont think it's a huge deal that it sometimes does), but the village mech-locking a game sucks and is boring. Think introducing anti-claim mechanics like an anticlaim vig or an anticlaim RB should disincentivise mass claiming. Or like Kas said, anything that conveys to the players that their action results arent 100% reliable.

And yeah :p. 9p-13p compatible games. Sad but true.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Factional kills that aren't restricted by action economy? Strong anticlaim mechanics? Unreliable actions? Flips that only reveal alignment not role? ok nobody asked for that last one but still

If only somebody would run a game like that sometime in the future!

[Aeoryi she/her]

20 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Factional kills that aren't restricted by action economy? Strong anticlaim mechanics? Unreliable actions? Flips that only reveal alignment not role? ok nobody asked for that last one but still

If only somebody would run a game like that sometime in the future!

How about a blackout game that 

Spoiler

Has a normal village faction, a normal Elim faction, and no other roles? And flips show alignment not roles?

Ingenuity right there

 

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

8 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

How about a blackout game that 

  Hide contents

Has a normal village faction, a normal Elim faction, and no other roles? And flips show alignment not roles?

Ingenuity right there

 

I legit want to do this.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

smh

I for one would not consider doing that >:P

(behold! this is the way to convince people not to expect shenanigans, by telling them that you would never do shenanigans! naturally, everyone completely believes me, on account of my superlative trustworthiness and reputation for honesty :))

[Aeoryi she/her]

5 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

I legit want to do this.

I know but now all the surprises are ruined

Although I thought of these roles to go with it. This would be so hilarious because everything would probably be land-locked, with the occasional target scan here or there.

Spoiler

Atium misting: You can see your target's target's target, as well as see who the target's target's target's role is every night.

Electrum misting: You can see the person who targeted the person who targeted you's role and identity each night 

Malatium misting: You can see the person who targeted the person who targeted you and their alignment every night.

Chromium misting: You can target a person a night. The person who was targeted by your target will be role-blocked for the next turn.

Bendalloy misting: You can role-block the next action taken by the person who targeted the person who targeted you each night.

Cadmium misting: You can target a person during night turns. The person who targeted the person targeting you that cycle will be role-blocked the next cycle.

Nicrosil misting: You can target a person. That person's target's target will be immune to roleblocks.

Gold misting: You can role-block the next person to the target the person who targets you this night. This role-block will take effect for the next night.

Iron misting: You can protect one person each night. You may not protect the same person twice in a row. This will protect your target's target.

Steel misting: You can scan one person every night. You can learn who targeted the person that night, and the following cycle you will learn who they targeted that previous cycle.

Copper misting: You may smoke yourself or another person. This prevents scans from affecting you next cycle.

Bronze misting: Find the alignment of one person every night, and the role of the person they targeted

Tin misting: You may send an anonymous PM to your target's target each night.

Pewter misting: You role-block the first action to target you each night. This role-block will take into effect the next cycle.

Brass misting: You may prevent an action from reaching the person you target each night. This role-block will take effect next cycle.

Zinc misting: You may prevent preventing an action of your target. This effect will take place next cycle.

 

Additionally, what if two roles/person? This would be role madness, ofc

Feel free to tear apart those rules, but it seems like an interesting concept.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

It is a fun concept don't mind me I'm just meming

[Aeoryi she/her]

Just now, DrakeMarshall said:

It is a fun concept don't mind me I'm just meming

Which, the Blackout but not blackout or the genius "normal" tyrian falls game?

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

The former

Although the latter is also potentially fun in the sense that role madness games do not always have to be high power games

[Aeoryi she/her]

Just now, DrakeMarshall said:

The former

Although the latter is also potentially fun in the sense that role madness games do not always have to be high power games

Just think. Somewhere within that scan madness is the Elim kill.

Although maybe I'll try to run it eventually. I probably should sign up first (to GM a game) and then see how long that takes.

Probably better as an MR I think, or LG.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

I'd say the main thing to take into consideration when figuring out who gets what roles in something like that is that people will sometimes work together to avoid the deadlock.

Something that affects your target's target is hard to aim under normal circumstances, but not if you PM your target and convince them to do you a solid and target the person you want. With a bit of teamwork you could turn Atium into a reliable scan.

Or for Malatium you can ask somebody else to target you. Maybe you could even ask a second person to submit to an alignment scan by targeting the first person, and if they didn't it would be at least a little suspicious.

These roles might be more useful and powerful than immediately meets the eye.

Edit: You can encourage/discourage this kind of cooperation by allowing/disallowing PMs. Even with PMs players won't always cooperate and even without them they will probably sometimes find a way to cooperate, but it is at least one of the levers that let you decide how much of that sort of thing you want.

Edited October 20, 2023 by DrakeMarshall

[Aeoryi she/her]

Okay: New and improved roles.

Spoiler

Quote

1. This is role madness

2. Roleblocks only stop one action.

3. Hidden scan results are the same as a lack of scan results. They are also the same as if the scan was blocked.

4. Only one action per turn

5. All roles can only be used during night cycle.

6. Roles without an apparent target show the person affected instead. 

7. Players are not imformed if their ability suceeds

8. PMs are closed

 

...

Atium Misting: Discover the identity and role of your target's target's target. 

Malatium misting: Discover the identity of a person who targetted you and the alignment of a person who targetted them.

Electrum misting: Discover the identity of a person who targeted another person who targetted you. The next cycle, you will discover their role.

Gold misting: Roleblock someone who targets you. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Chromium misting: Roleblock your target's target. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Nicrosil misting: Make your target's target's target immune to all roleblocks this cycle.

Cadmium misting: Roleblock someone who targets another person targetting you. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Bendalloy misting: Roleblock someone who targets another person targetting you. This roleblock will affect the person this cycle.

Bronze misting: Learn the alignment of your target. The next cycle, learn the role of the person they targetted the previous cycle.

Copper misting: Prevent all scans from reaching your target. This protection will affect the person the following cycle.

Tin misting: Create a PM between two players. You do not need to be in this PM.

Pewter misting: Roleblock 1 action targetting you each night.

Steel misting: Learn the role of your target. Learn the identity of their next target in the following cycle.

Iron misting: Protect your target's target. You cannot target the same player twice. You cannot target yourself. Attempting to target a player who targets you will work.

Zinc misting: Roleblock one of the actions that target your target next cycle.

Brass misting: Prevent an action targetting your target from being roleblocked. This prevention will take efect the following cycle.

Aluminum misting: Any information regarding your identity or role (not including alignment) will be blocked. Any information regarding your target's identity will be blocked and not shown either. (You cannot target anyone, however)

 

...

Malatium has been reworked to show the alignment of the player who targets a player targetting the user, and instead shows who that alignment person targetted.

Electrum still shows role+identity

Steel and bronze both give instant info (role/alignment) and give additional info the following cycle on the same scan. This is to discourage quick-claiming.

Zinc and pewter have been swapped for flavour reasons (which speaking of, I have a theme in mind for this game; it should make sense).

Aluminum now exists to make scans less certain.

Only atium and nicrosil affect your target's target's target. 

5 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

I'd say the main thing to take into consideration when figuring out who gets what roles in something like that is that people will sometimes work together to avoid the deadlock.

Something that affects your target's target is hard to aim under normal circumstances, but not if you PM your target and convince them to do you a solid and target the person you want. With a bit of teamwork you could turn Atium into a reliable scan.

Or for Malatium you can ask somebody else to target you. Maybe you could even ask a second person to submit to an alignment scan by targeting the first person, and if they didn't it would be at least a little suspicious.

These roles might be more useful and powerful than immediately meets the eye.

Edit: You can encourage/discourage this kind of cooperation by allowing/disallowing PMs. Even with PMs players won't always cooperate and even without them they will probably sometimes find a way to cooperate, but it is at least one of the levers that let you decide how much of that sort of thing you want.

Turning atium into a reliable scan is quite hard already. Say, if you try to coordinate it, it only takes one aluminum misting or one coppercloud order from the previous cycle to stop it. Or you could get gold-blocked or bendalloy blocked if you aren't careful. But atium having such a long chain actually makes it more easy to avoid all these rb countermeasures.

 Malatium has been fixed. It should also be noted that you can't tell if someone targetted you or not (they don't ned to publically declare their target) and there could easily be another person targetting them that you could target  by accident and show up on the malat scan.

PMs on/off will make a big difference to the game. Its essentially completely different game without pms. I think I am leaning more towards PM open, since I want people to actually try to utilize these roles to their fullest.

I think ultimately the distro especially on elim side influences the game a lot.

[Kasimir he/him]

8 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Factional kills that aren't restricted by action economy? Strong anticlaim mechanics? Unreliable actions? Flips that only reveal alignment not role? ok nobody asked for that last one but still

If only somebody would run a game like that sometime in the future!

Indeed, what sort of genius depraved mind would come up with such a game, Drake???

:EYES:

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

15 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

Okay: New and improved roles.

  Reveal hidden contents

Atium Misting: Discover the identity and role of your target's target's target. 

Malatium misting: Discover the identity of a person who targetted you and the alignment of a person who targetted them.

Electrum misting: Discover the identity of a person who targeted another person who targetted you. The next cycle, you will discover their role.

Gold misting: Roleblock someone who targets you. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Chromium misting: Roleblock your target's target. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Nicrosil misting: Make your target's target's target immune to all roleblocks this cycle.

Cadmium misting: Roleblock someone who targets another person targetting you. This roleblock will affect the person in the following cycle.

Bendalloy misting: Roleblock someone who targets another person targetting you. This roleblock will affect the person this cycle.

Bronze misting: Learn the alignment of your target. The next cycle, learn the role of the person they targetted the previous cycle.

Copper misting: Prevent all scans from reaching your target. This protection will affect the person the following cycle.

Tin misting: Create a PM between two players. You do not need to be in this PM.

Pewter misting: Roleblock 1 action targetting you each night.

Steel misting: Learn the role of your target. Learn the identity of their next target in the following cycle.

Iron misting: Protect your target's target. You cannot target the same player twice. You cannot target yourself. Attempting to target a player who targets you will work.

Zinc misting: Roleblock one of the actions that target your target next cycle.

Brass misting: Prevent an action targetting your target from being roleblocked. This prevention will take efect the following cycle.

Aluminum misting: Any information regarding your identity or role (not including alignment) will be blocked. Any information regarding your target's identity will be blocked and not shown either. (You cannot target anyone, however)

 

...

Malatium has been reworked to show the alignment of the player who targets a player targetting the user, and instead shows who that alignment person targetted.

Electrum still shows role+identity

Steel and bronze both give instant info (role/alignment) and give additional info the following cycle on the same scan. This is to discourage quick-claiming.

Zinc and pewter have been swapped for flavour reasons (which speaking of, I have a theme in mind for this game; it should make sense).

Aluminum now exists to make scans less certain.

Only atium and nicrosil affect your target's target's target. 

Turning atium into a reliable scan is quite hard already. Say, if you try to coordinate it, it only takes one aluminum misting or one coppercloud order from the previous cycle to stop it. Or you could get gold-blocked or bendalloy blocked if you aren't careful. But atium having such a long chain actually makes it more easy to avoid all these rb countermeasures.

 Malatium has been fixed. It should also be noted that you can't tell if someone targetted you or not (they don't ned to publically declare their target) and there could easily be another person targetting them that you could target  by accident and show up on the malat scan.

PMs on/off will make a big difference to the game. Its essentially completely different game without pms. I think I am leaning more towards PM open, since I want people to actually try to utilize these roles to their fullest.

I think ultimately the distro especially on elim side influences the game a lot.

Yes the distro will be pretty important! I believe in principle these roles allow for multiple interesting distro options though.

It's a small change but I like this iteration of malatium very much.

14 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Indeed, what sort of genius depraved mind would come up with such a game, Drake???

:EYES:

Good question  Just change the puncutation a bit and you answer your own question

[Aeoryi she/her]

6 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Yes the distro will be pretty important! I believe in principle these roles allow for multiple interesting distro options though.

It's a small change but I like this iteration of malatium very much.

Good question  Just change the puncutation a bit and you answer your own question

Very true. I think that if I was running this game I would definitely want a co-GM or something, due to the high amount of oppertunities to screw up. 

Uh- okay- this might sound dumb, but I need someone to tell me what the metal plate in one of the caverns (Malatium or electrum ones to be exact) says exactly since my library doesn't have the Hero of Ages anymore. Yeah. The flavor will probably be a group of obligators that are working in the cave and some of them are defectants (hence why everyone has allomancy), and the loyal obligators must rid the traitors from themself before they incur the lord ruler's wrath. This was the only way that I could get the "newer" metals to be explained in the game without having another post-catacendre scandrial game (and even then there wouldn't be malatium and atium).

Trying to figure out order of action is a nightmare. 

Currently, rules are looking in favor with pms open

 

 

[Aeoryi she/her]

Okay: slight issues

Certain roles only benefit one side, mainly iron and copper, certain metals don't exist Era 1 (bendalloy, Cadmium), but without them there aren't enough role-blocks

Also, role-block roles are basically discouraged from a village standpoint

The temporal metals are either to easy to use or too hard, depending on whether PMs on or off (off is where I'm leaning)

List of good (balanced) metals: (some are changed)

Spoiler

Malatium: Find the identity of someone who targets you and the alignment of a player who targets them.

Atium: Find the identity and role of your target's target's target.

Electrum: Find the identity of a person who targets you and the role of someone who targets them.

Gold: Role-block one person that targets you this cycle. This will take into effect next cycle.

Pewter: Role-block one action that targets you each night. (Cannot be turned off)

Tin: Find the identity of one of the people who visits your target and the number of total people who visited your target, excluding you.

Bronze: Find the alignment of your target and who they targeted 

Steel: Find the role of your target and who they targeted 

Brass: Prevent one role-blocked action that also targets your target.

Zinc: Role-block one action that targets your target.

Aluminum: Scans will not return role or identity information on you. You may target a player. This does nothing, but can help other roles.

List of metals that need to be fixed:

Spoiler

Iron: Protect your target's target. 

- as there is only one NK this is only v! beneficial

- can coordinate well with others to protect same person many times

 

Copper: Prevent scans from reaching your target. Effect starts next cycle.

- too Elim based

- V!copper would be discouraged from using ability

 

Chromium: Role-block your target's target, this takes effect next cycle

- discouraged V! Since it could cause problems for V more than e

 

Nicrosil: Make your target's target's target immune to rbs

- seems hard to aim and unnecessary from V!standpoint, from a e! standpoint it is too hard to use

 

Cadmium: Role-block someone that targets another player targeting you, takes effect next cycle

- too hard to aim accuratly for V, e could cause damage with it

- Cadmium is not a era1 metal 

 

Bendalloy: role-block someone who targets another person who targets you this cycle

- really hard to aim

- only e! Beneficial

- not era1 metal

 

 

Any suggestions for how to fix the bad metals?

 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Sorry but I got Hero of Ages from the library too

On 10/22/2023 at 3:43 PM, Aeoryi said:

Okay: slight issues

Certain roles only benefit one side, mainly iron and copper, certain metals don't exist Era 1 (bendalloy, Cadmium), but without them there aren't enough role-blocks

Also, role-block roles are basically discouraged from a village standpoint

The temporal metals are either to easy to use or too hard, depending on whether PMs on or off (off is where I'm leaning)

Fair yes, alas game building is very very iterative

I will argue slightly that roleblocks actually seem pretty okay from a village standpoint, because yes they do confuse and deadlock things but they might also block the elim kill, and sacrificing the usefulness of village roles to block elim kills is imo a pretty good trade actually. Supposing you inundated everything with roleblocks, the village still has the vote which is their main and best tool for making progress anyways, the elims are the ones who are stuck. (Of course, you have roles that grant roleblock immunity, and it would be fairly intuitive for the elims to have some access to them. In which case, yes one could argue that roleblocks are basically discouraged from a village standpoint, because it is bound to impact the village more than it does the elims... At least as long as an elim with that role is still in fact alive!)

I think if you want targeting to be indirect in this game, then something that comes with the territory is abilities being a bit harder to use than what you would see in an average game, but some are certainly harder than others and it'd be fair to want things more consistent.

Anyways. Have some more crazed ramblings about game design:

On 10/22/2023 at 3:43 PM, Aeoryi said:

Any suggestions for how to fix the bad metals?

Spoiler

Iron: Iron is situationally useful for the elims in that it can be used for wounded gazelle gambiting, but yes in general you are right it's pretty village-coded. It's not the worst thing to have roles that slant towards one alignment but I can respect wanting to avoid it if possible. While there are probably many ways to fix this two that I can think of are 1) create some kind of coinshot type role or 2) make iron both protect and roleblock the affected individual (this might actually solve several of your problems at once, come to think of it -- it means you'll have another era 1 friendly roleblock, and the double-sided nature of protecting and roleblocking the same target might make coordination somewhat less beneficial -- that said, this is a decently strong ability).

Copper: Copper has always been elim-coded unfortunately It's kind of hard to make an ability that obscures information not favor the informed minority, and tbf if you can find a way to pull it off I'd be quite interested to see how it works. Still, your setup has role scans as well as alignment scans, so there is at least a slight village application of this ability, insofar as you are worried about the elims scanning people's roles.

Chromium: See previous statement about roleblocks, I suppose. I feel it's usefulness to the village depends on whether the elims have access to roleblock immunity or not. Chromium is hard to aim but tbf if you blocked the elim kill with it you could do some detective work to untangle what happened and who targeted whom, and assuming you trust everyone's accounts (:P) you should be able to catch an elim that way.

Nicrosil: Agreed that this is mostly hard to use for the village. I'd argue it's actually really quite good for the elims though since there are potentially a good few roleblocks flying around, and they have a doc where they can actually coordinate and figure out how to make whoever is submitting the NK immune to roleblocks. Still, if anything this means it's very elim-coded, which is something you're trying to avoid. Hmmmm. I'd almost suggest just making this particular ability impact the target directly rather than the target's target -- the elims already have a doc so they might as well just get to pick the target directly, whereas for the village this change makes it a lot easier for a villager to actually use the ability beneficially. I realize that this may run contrary to the theme of the game though so fair enough if you aren't feeling it.

Cadmium/Bendalloy: These abilities are pretty interesting although agreed that they are pretty hard to use. I suppose one way you could balance out the fact that it's hard to aim is by making it hit more than a single person at once? Cadmium and bendalloy are both AOE metals in the stories so it would kind of fit flavorfully at least. Not sure where that puts things with overall balance. Anyways, if you want to include them, I think you could handwave the fact that they aren't era 1 and say the Lord Ruler knew all the metals since he was a Sliver of Preservation and such and just hoarded the knowledge and kept it a secret (I confess I don't know what tech is required to mine cadmium or if the Final Empire level tech was sufficient for the task, but on the bright side, probably most other SE players don't know the answer to that either so they won't be able to contradict whatever you decide ). But you likely have plenty of roles even without them so I'd say it's a matter of preference.

 

[Aeoryi she/her]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:52 PM, DrakeMarshall said:

Sorry but I got Hero of Ages from the library too

Fair yes, alas game building is very very iterative

I will argue slightly that roleblocks actually seem pretty okay from a village standpoint, because yes they do confuse and deadlock things but they might also block the elim kill, and sacrificing the usefulness of village roles to block elim kills is imo a pretty good trade actually. Supposing you inundated everything with roleblocks, the village still has the vote which is their main and best tool for making progress anyways, the elims are the ones who are stuck. (Of course, you have roles that grant roleblock immunity, and it would be fairly intuitive for the elims to have some access to them. In which case, yes one could argue that roleblocks are basically discouraged from a village standpoint, because it is bound to impact the village more than it does the elims... At least as long as an elim with that role is still in fact alive!)

I think if you want targeting to be indirect in this game, then something that comes with the territory is abilities being a bit harder to use than what you would see in an average game, but some are certainly harder than others and it'd be fair to want things more consistent.

Anyways. Have some more crazed ramblings about game design:

  Reveal hidden contents

Iron: Iron is situationally useful for the elims in that it can be used for wounded gazelle gambiting, but yes in general you are right it's pretty village-coded. It's not the worst thing to have roles that slant towards one alignment but I can respect wanting to avoid it if possible. While there are probably many ways to fix this two that I can think of are 1) create some kind of coinshot type role or 2) make iron both protect and roleblock the affected individual (this might actually solve several of your problems at once, come to think of it -- it means you'll have another era 1 friendly roleblock, and the double-sided nature of protecting and roleblocking the same target might make coordination somewhat less beneficial -- that said, this is a decently strong ability).

Copper: Copper has always been elim-coded unfortunately It's kind of hard to make an ability that obscures information not favor the informed minority, and tbf if you can find a way to pull it off I'd be quite interested to see how it works. Still, your setup has role scans as well as alignment scans, so there is at least a slight village application of this ability, insofar as you are worried about the elims scanning people's roles.

Chromium: See previous statement about roleblocks, I suppose. I feel it's usefulness to the village depends on whether the elims have access to roleblock immunity or not. Chromium is hard to aim but tbf if you blocked the elim kill with it you could do some detective work to untangle what happened and who targeted whom, and assuming you trust everyone's accounts (:P) you should be able to catch an elim that way.

Nicrosil: Agreed that this is mostly hard to use for the village. I'd argue it's actually really quite good for the elims though since there are potentially a good few roleblocks flying around, and they have a doc where they can actually coordinate and figure out how to make whoever is submitting the NK immune to roleblocks. Still, if anything this means it's very elim-coded, which is something you're trying to avoid. Hmmmm. I'd almost suggest just making this particular ability impact the target directly rather than the target's target -- the elims already have a doc so they might as well just get to pick the target directly, whereas for the village this change makes it a lot easier for a villager to actually use the ability beneficially. I realize that this may run contrary to the theme of the game though so fair enough if you aren't feeling it.

Cadmium/Bendalloy: These abilities are pretty interesting although agreed that they are pretty hard to use. I suppose one way you could balance out the fact that it's hard to aim is by making it hit more than a single person at once? Cadmium and bendalloy are both AOE metals in the stories so it would kind of fit flavorfully at least. Not sure where that puts things with overall balance. Anyways, if you want to include them, I think you could handwave the fact that they aren't era 1 and say the Lord Ruler knew all the metals since he was a Sliver of Preservation and such and just hoarded the knowledge and kept it a secret (I confess I don't know what tech is required to mine cadmium or if the Final Empire level tech was sufficient for the task, but on the bright side, probably most other SE players don't know the answer to that either so they won't be able to contradict whatever you decide ). But you likely have plenty of roles even without them so I'd say it's a matter of preference.

 

Okay, I did some stuff:

Spoiler

Iron: I took your suggestion and added a role-block to it. It still gets your target's target for both the protect and role-block, but has a role-block that takes effect next cycle. This can be very detrimental if you're just waving it around wildly, but it is now useful to elims.

Copper I somehow made into an anti-claim role. It now allows you to target someone, and role-blocks scans that target that target, but sends the results of the scans to you. This is useful for elims (both antiscan and partial scan) and village (you don't need to trust the scanner's alignment). 

Chromium is still a target's target delayed role-block, but it now tells you if it triggers the next day, similar to gold.

Nicrosil now allows you to target a person to see if they were role-blocked, and if so who role-blocked them. This is useful in a game where half the roles are scanners and the other half are disruption roles.

Cadmium: I felt like the Aoe idea was cool, but I still needed anti-role-blcok roles besides aluminum and brass. So now, Cadmium gives everyone who targets a random person (only one person who targets you, but affects everyone who targets them) role-block immunity the following cycle. It can be turned off as an action. Cadmium will also tell the user the net amount of people who received their immunity.

Bendalloy: I liked the Aoe idea again, but I needed to have it be worth the trouble. So now, Bendalloy gives a delayed role-block to everyone who targets a random person who targeted you, in a similar manner to cadmium. The role-block takes effect next cycle, but you are told all the actions that it blocks. It can be turned off or on as an action.

Additionally, the following metals were changed:

Steel: Now shows your target's target's role.

Bronze: Now shows your target's target's alignment. I don't like bronze, it feels too easy to use right now.

 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Because there are never enough Tyrian with a twist setups

The costs are back-of-the-napkin sort of figures and yes I might run simulations to fine-tune them in the event of actually running this. But if u think the value estimations of ur favorite and/or least-favorite roles is all wrong and u want to tell me so then go ahead i suppose >:P

[Aeoryi she/her]

1 hour ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Because there are never enough Tyrian with a twist setups

The costs are back-of-the-napkin sort of figures and yes I might run simulations to fine-tune them in the event of actually running this. But if u think the value estimations of ur favorite and/or least-favorite roles is all wrong and u want to tell me so then go ahead i suppose >:P

This seems like Capitalist Tyrian falls

[Kasimir he/him]

2 hours ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Because there are never enough Tyrian with a twist setups

The costs are back-of-the-napkin sort of figures and yes I might run simulations to fine-tune them in the event of actually running this. But if u think the value estimations of ur favorite and/or least-favorite roles is all wrong and u want to tell me so then go ahead i suppose >:P

Elegant tbh. Would love to see this in action and play >:P So glad you finally made this sir!