Upvotes and Downvotes

[Meg]

While I'm here, I have a question for those of you who have been here for a longer time and have stood witness to this change in voting patterns : Do you bear ill will towards the less serious "new generation" of Sharders?

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Hi Cognizantastic,

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you might have thought I ignored your question -- I didn't. But please bear with me for just lending ScottLeft's answer and add that he says in short what my opinion also is:

 

 

I'm probably the youngest of the older generation(to steal Meg's term) and I certainly don't. They help keep the forum active. My old forum died out from lack of use, so I'm very appreciative of people who can keep forums going while we wait for new books and WoBs. Do I hold them in less revere than Kurk or Skaa or Chaos? Yup.

[Kestrel]

I have an idea.

Not sure if this was mentioned before, but I didn't see it if it was.

How about we keep the rep system as is, then add in something else for theory crafters.

We all know that downvotes aren't really used often to display dislike, rather they're used to offer support or no support in theory boards.

Instead of using rep there, we could add another field for a support/no support button that doesn't effect rep. Then the user could state why.

There could also be a way to turn them off, like if I were to post a drawing or meme it wouldn't need it.

There could also be a note at the top of the post that states how many people support the theory/thread.

Just a thought, no idea how hard it would be to implement.

[Windrunner]

Unfortunately, I think we've established that most custom code is going to be too difficult to make work with the site updates. :/

[Curious Anamaximder]

Well, I haven't replied to this yet.

I really don't care. I could have no rep, or like me, above 1,000.

[Kestrel]

Hm, is there a coder on the staff? Its my understanding that most of these forum softwares let you add in your own code, if you know what you're doing. At least, the one I use does. Might be worth looking into, not for this project specifically but in the future.

Another option would be get rid of the system altogether, but that'll get rid of the ranks and I do enjoy them. But I've been on numerous sites without rep and it doesn't effect the conversation whatsoever.

[Left]

Unfortunately, I think we've established that most custom code is going to be too difficult to make work with the site updates. :/

So given how difficult it is to add most customization, it looks like we're going to be lucky with badges

So currently, we're looking at an eventual addition of badges, the lower quotas, and an aim for a different upvote culture that isn't so inflationary. I'm not sure exactly what or how the different culture would be made, but I guess through a big original announcement and a reminder when a thread, like Bad Day, started becoming inflationary and on the line of abusing the system. That wouldn't infringe on people's ability to use their upvotes/downvotes so much as work to re-define their meaning, at least to my thinking.

[Windrunner]

If you'll scroll back a few pages, you can see Eric talk about this, I believe. It's possible, but I don't believe anyone has extensive experience in coding for IPB or whatever it would be. Eero, Chaos, and Joe all know about coding and there might be others I'm forgetting as well. According to Chaos, it's difficult to write something like this that's easily updated.

[Eerongal]

 

Hm, is there a coder on the staff? Its my understanding that most of these forum softwares let you add in your own code, if you know what you're doing. At least, the one I use does. Might be worth looking into, not for this project specifically but in the future.

Another option would be get rid of the system altogether, but that'll get rid of the ranks and I do enjoy them. But I've been on numerous sites without rep and it doesn't effect the conversation whatsoever.

 

 

If you'll scroll back a few pages, you can see Eric talk about this, I believe. It's possible, but I don't believe anyone has extensive experience in coding for IPB or whatever it would be. Eero, Chaos, and Joe all know about coding and there might be others I'm forgetting as well. According to Chaos, it's difficult to write something like this that's easily updated.

 

Yeah, we do have a few coders on staff (myself and joe are coders professionally. Not for IPB, but still), that said, we've always strove to limit any customization as much as possible just to avoid issues with upgrading, which is the main reason for not implementing something to that effect.

[Chaos]

Regarding awards:

They must be physically given out. They are not automatic.

Chaos, I saw you noted that it's the updates that would make localization of upvotes a nightmare. Would that same reasoning apply here? If we assign specific badges algorithms to reference a user's upvotes in each Forum and apply badges when it's hit a certain number, would updates royally screw with that? If not, it sounds like the ideal situation as of now. If so, then it's an even worse idea than the localization of rep because every badge with an algorithm would need to be tracked after each update.

I've been asked various permutations on "why can't we implement this thing." I would like to paste you. The Young Bard had asked me: "Yeah... I was thinking about this not too long ago. How much freedom does the site have to go bespoke with the code? Is it possible to do something that isn't directly supported by Invision?"

My response:

I can. It is typically difficult to do anything of reasonable complexity. I don't want to break core functionality. In addition, all custom things make site upgrades even harder as it requires testing to make sure neither the custom stuff nor the upgrade were broken in the process.

Layout things are just templating and such, and are far easier to do. Coding changes requires not only a deep understanding of PHP (which I don't have especially deep knowledge on), and also a deep knowledge of IPBs... Everything. I'm sure there's logic to what they do coding wise, but let me tell you... It is really difficult to make sense of it all.

Basically it is a ton of time (which I don't have) and work for something that will almost assuredly break upon upgrades and isn't future proof. So... Not a thing I like doing.

But can we do such a thing? Yes, it is legal to do so. Is it practical? Not so much.

So, while in theory we could implement basically anything, that doesn't mean it is actually a long-term, sustainable course of action. I would ask everyone to not get super hyped by the award system. I think it will be cool, but for now, just pretend it will be awful and then be pleasantly surprised when it's a bit better than that

The software package is very complex and I don't like rocking the boat unless it's really necessary.

[Blaze1616]

...

 

All right, thanks for the reply. With no background in coding aside from a single class of Visual Basic, I wasn't sure if the badge system would be easier/harder to handle regarding updates. It makes no sense to implement a solution that requires a ton of work from a small group of volunteers.

[Cold Fusion]

Even though I’ve had an account here for a couple years, I almost never bother to post.  The only reason I use 17th shard is because of the theory posting.  

 

That being said, here are my thoughts:

-The rep system is way overinflated.  Example:  Brandon Sanderson has 5,018 votes while Kobold King has 25,000.  I only use Kobold King because he’s got the most rep (and been a member for one and a half years), while Brandon Sanderson wrote the books that this whole site is dedicated to.

-A small group on this forum places way way way too much value on their upvotes.  It’s not the end of the world if your meme doesn’t get upvoted, or if your comment gets downvoted.

-No one here ever down votes here, and that's not for the best. If I were a new member, I would probably check the rules to make sure it's only for offensive content, based off of the over reactions I've seen in the past month. However,  I think it’s perfectly alright to down vote someone, especially considering how inflated the system is.

-Certain areas of the forum, and even threads, have extremely different atmospheres regarding upvotes.  As mentioned before, there’s a stark difference between the general brandon and cosmere theories (for example).

In-a-Nutshell:  I think we should all stay calm and remember that the point of this site is Brandon Sanderson’s great books.  It’s not a big deal if you get down voted, don’t get upvoted, etc., it’s just a forum.

[Mestiv]

Even though I’ve had an account here for a couple years, I almost never bother to post.  The only reason I use 17th shard is because of the theory posting.  

 

That being said, here are my thoughts:

-The rep system is way overinflated.  Example:  Brandon Sanderson has 5,018 votes while Kobold King has 25,000.  I only use Kobold King because he’s got the most rep (and been a member for one and a half years), while Brandon Sanderson wrote the books that this whole site is dedicated to.

-A small group on this forum places way way way too much value on their upvotes.  It’s not the end of the world if your meme doesn’t get upvoted, or if your comment gets downvoted.

-No one here ever down votes here, and that's not for the best. If I were a new member, I would probably check the rules to make sure it's only for offensive content, based off of the over reactions I've seen in the past month. However,  I think it’s perfectly alright to down vote someone, especially considering how inflated the system is.

-Certain areas of the forum, and even threads, have extremely different atmospheres regarding upvotes.  As mentioned before, there’s a stark difference between the general brandon and cosmere theories (for example).

In-a-Nutshell:  I think we should all stay calm and remember that the point of this site is Brandon Sanderson’s great books.  It’s not a big deal if you get down voted, don’t get upvoted, etc., it’s just a forum.

 

1) I kind of agree that the rep system is overinflated. However it's unavoidable that users will have more REP points tham Brandon, since Brandon doesn't post here any more. If he did, I'm 100% certain that KK wouldn't stand a chance.

 

2) You are not the first one to point at a "certain group that places too much value on their upvotes", however I've never really seen anyone seriously display this kind of behaviour. In the Community section we often jokingly refer to the accumulated rep-points, however I've never seen anyone being upset because his/her's meme didn't get enough upvotes or something like that. Also, as far as I remember, no one in this thread actually opposed to the idea of resetting the rep system, which would mean losing all those points that you think some of us value so much.

 

3) Downvotes are used on this site the way they are used because of how this community treats them. I think there's nothing wrong with it. After all, I think that it's the users who decide what a downvote means, not some kind of a forced definition.

It is not true that no one ever downvotes here. As stated by several users in this topic, some people downvote posts that they consider unworthy of a high amount of upvotes and I think nobody sees a problem with that. Sure, if I noticed that my post had X reputation, and after a while it has X-1 rep I would wonder why is that, but it wouldn't be a big deal. I've seen some users complain about ninja-downvoters, but I think after reading this topic everything is clear now.

We are nice people here on this site and those that are concerned about the downvotes usually worry that they might have offended someone or that they wrote something wrong, so they sometimes ask for this anonymous downvoter to explain what's wrong with their post. Their worry is mistakenly viewed as attachment to the rep points, while it's usually just care for the positive nature of this board. Seriously, why would Kobold, Twi or anyone from the Top 10 worry about this -1 or even -10 points when they have so many? They are major contributors to this community and they are obviously responsible for the atmosphere or this place almost as much as admins and mods.

 

4) Yes, there are big differences between sections of this forum in regard to reputation points. Personally, I didn't consider this a problem, but I hope we'll all come to an agreement how to fix this

[Kestrel]

Oh yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for the reply, Eero and Chaos!

[The Ninja Yodeler]

 

3) Downvotes are used on this site the way they are used because of how this community treats them. I think there's nothing wrong with it. After all, I think that it's the users who decide what a downvote means, not some kind of a forced definition.

This is the comment I made yesterday (?) about someone learning English through anime, reading fantasy, etc.

"Dude, that is damnation impressive.

Ugh, jogging. I had more than enough running in wrestling. Dont even like thinking about it lol"

Pretty sure it happened because a certain user saw my name, and hit the downvote simply because it was my name. On the whole, Im with you on the upvote downvote system. Not a big deal to me. Hell I only have 33 without it lol. Just pointing out this one instance.

[Kobold King]

Seriously, why would Kobold, Twi or anyone from the Top 10 worry about this -1 or even -10 points when they have so many?

 

 

Because the sum total of my reputation is not valuable to me. I do, however, care very strongly about the individual quality of my posts, and a downvote represents an attack on the integrity of my labor.

 

I have received downvotes for lengthy posts arguing my side of an issue. This is to be expected, but I consider it disrespectful. People should be able to disagree while still respecting and valuing one another's contributions to the discussion; I will point out that the civil religious and political discussions that the 17th Shard has become miraculous for have almost exclusively been carried out without the use of the downvote button, and I believe this was conducive to the calm, friendly discussions we all value so much.

 

I have also received downvotes for my RP posts on occasion, which is hurtful to me. My writing is a labor of love, freely given to the people of this forum. Every downvote I have gotten on these posts stings, as a downvote in this context clearly states that the downvoter felt that my work was worth going out of his way to communicate his disdain for.

 

I care about downvotes because I want my voice to be respected and valued on this community. A downvote says very clearly that a post is not respected and valued. I ask, how many people have purposefully downvoted a post that they were genuinely glad existed on the forum? Is there anyone who has done this? It seems to me that downvotes are used predominantly as an expression of irritation or hostility, and neither of these things are what's made this forum great.

[STINK]

Well we've already had at least one person say that they use downvotes on posts that they feel don't deserve as much upvotes as it has, while they might have still enjoyed it (I have done this before). So I can say yes to your question.

 

A downvote does not represent an attack on the integrity of your labour, as labour is defined (and you can google this too) as hard work, so if someone downvotes a quick meme or joke that you made, it's just a downvote. If they downvote an RP, then yes I guess it might be an 'attack on the integrity of your labour' or it might be a troll thinking he's funny by doing it, because after all, it's not like anyone is gonna notice one negative post among the midst of your upvoted posts, right?

 

If you care about downvotes because you want to be respected and valued, then that surely must work the other way around in that you care about upvotes as a sign that the post is 'respected and valued', though you have said before that you don't care about upvotes. 

 

I could say the same about upvotes being discarded as they have no effect on the 'miraculous' discussions we have. 

[Kobold King]

If you care about downvotes because you want to be respected and valued, then that surely must work the other way around in that you care about upvotes as a sign that the post is 'respected and valued', though you have said before that you don't care about upvotes. 

 

 

I do care about upvotes. It is my reputation as a whole that I do not have strong feelings for. I deeply value individual upvotes as signs of recognition and happiness from the readers of my posts.

 

1) I kind of agree that the rep system is overinflated. However it's unavoidable that users will have more REP points tham Brandon, since Brandon doesn't post here any more. If he did, I'm 100% certain that KK wouldn't stand a chance.

 

2) You are not the first one to point at a "certain group that places too much value on their upvotes", however I've never really seen anyone seriously display this kind of behaviour. In the Community section we often jokingly refer to the accumulated rep-points, however I've never seen anyone being upset because his/her's meme didn't get enough upvotes or something like that. Also, as far as I remember, no one in this thread actually opposed to the idea of resetting the rep system, which would mean losing all those points that you think some of us value so much.

 

3) Downvotes are used on this site the way they are used because of how this community treats them. I think there's nothing wrong with it. After all, I think that it's the users who decide what a downvote means, not some kind of a forced definition.

It is not true that no one ever downvotes here. As stated by several users in this topic, some people downvote posts that they consider unworthy of a high amount of upvotes and I think nobody sees a problem with that. Sure, if I noticed that my post had X reputation, and after a while it has X-1 rep I would wonder why is that, but it wouldn't be a big deal. I've seen some users complain about ninja-downvoters, but I think after reading this topic everything is clear now.

We are nice people here on this site and those that are concerned about the downvotes usually worry that they might have offended someone or that they wrote something wrong, so they sometimes ask for this anonymous downvoter to explain what's wrong with their post. Their worry is mistakenly viewed as attachment to the rep points, while it's usually just care for the positive nature of this board. Seriously, why would Kobold, Twi or anyone from the Top 10 worry about this -1 or even -10 points when they have so many? They are major contributors to this community and they are obviously responsible for the atmosphere or this place almost as much as admins and mods.

 

4) Yes, there are big differences between sections of this forum in regard to reputation points. Personally, I didn't consider this a problem, but I hope we'll all come to an agreement how to fix this 

 

 

For clarity's sake, and so no one might accuse me of misunderstanding your argument, I appreciate that you are arguing on the same side I am on. I thank you for holding Twi and I in such high esteem, in fact.

 

 

I chose your post to quote as I have been searching this thread for my name periodically. (As I appear to be used as an example in this discussion quite frequently.) I seized the opportunity to restate my thoughts on the matter of current discussion, not to disagree with you in any way.

 

My apologies for sounding confrontational.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Kobold King

[Stormgate]

To be fair, Kobold, you do have the highest number of upvotes on the 17th Shard.

[Mestiv]

To be fair, Kobold, you do have the highest number of upvotes on the 17th Shard.

I suspect he might be aware of that

[Kestrel]

I don't agree with downvoting based on the number of upvotes a post has. Your upvotes and downvotes should be based on how you feel regardless of the rep the post got. Sorry, but it seems pretty petty to downvote like that. Someone gave that person an upvote for a reason, and unless you have an actual valid reason to downvote (disagreement, etc), don't do it. If you're downvoting because "it has too many" then you sound jealous and need to work on better content for your posts tbh.

Sorry, but I call it as I see it.

[Kurkistan]

I've had a thought on how to describe the idea that a post "deserves" some number of upvotes. It perhaps describes the two different approaches:

-A post is of quality X such that it deserves ~Y upvotes, quality-wise

-A post is of quality X such that you'd expect 1 out of every Z people who see it to give it an upvote.

Those who use the first method of evaluation might find "offsetting" downvotes quite justified, particularly if the number of upvotes a post has is significantly greater than Y. Those who use the second think that the more people see a good post, the more upvotes it should ultimately accumulate, into infinity.

[Kestrel]

Sorry, but if you feel that upvotes before yours were unjustified, you shouldn't downvote to offset that. Because the people who gave those upvotes actually felt based on their opinions, not trying to get even with the system.

[little wilson]

I don't agree with downvoting based on the number of upvotes a post has. Your upvotes and downvotes should be based on how you feel regardless of the rep the post got. Sorry, but it seems pretty petty to downvote like that. Someone gave that person an upvote for a reason, and unless you have an actual valid reason to downvote (disagreement, etc), don't do it. If you're downvoting because "it has too many" then you sound jealous and need to work on better content for your posts tbh.

Sorry, but I call it as I see it.

And that's the great thing about differing opinions. Right now, there's no set rule about how the rep system should be taken. Different people have different interpretations of it, and while your interpretation says people shouldn't be downvoting for that reason, my own interpretation says that it is fine.

What is my interpretation? It's based on the subjective value I place on a post for the overall community as a whole. If someone gets a Shard intent out of Brandon, you can bet I'll upvote that, even if that post has 95 upvotes already. If someone spends 15 seconds creating a meme that I think is funny, but it's got 40 rep, I'll downvote that. Because I personally don't think memes should represent the site and what we value overall. It's one downvote, among 40 upvotes. Do I really expect my one downvote to matter? Heavens no. But by downvoting it, I'm showing that I value other posts higher and feel that the upvotes on this diminish the value of the higher-quality posts I feel represent the site better (be those RP, art, WoBs, or theories). Jealousy is not a factor.

Until the admins state the way upvotes and downvotes should be used, no one person's view of the rep system is more correct than another, and it would probably be best to not unfairly judge people simply because they don't adhere to your interpretation of the rep system.

[Kestrel]

The thing is, rep really doesn't represent what the site is about. Its a Brandon Sanderson fan-forum. The Brandon Sanderson fan-forum. This is the best community I've ever been in because of how versatile it is. You cannot pick a single group to represent us because its such a wide variety of people! You've got artists and writers, theory crafters and joke makers. Everyone contributes something different, and rep doesn't change how the site comes across, honestly. It is like picking a specific instrument to represent the entire orchestra, it doesn't work because everyone brings something new to the table.

I still stand by my first post. Downvoting something just because you think it doesn't deserve the rep it got is basically downvoting out of spite.

[+Slowswift]

The thing is, rep really doesn't represent what the site is about. Its a Brandon Sanderson fan-forum. The Brandon Sanderson fan-forum. This is the best community I've ever been in because of how versatile it is. You cannot pick a single group to represent us because its such a wide variety of people! You've got artists and writers, theory crafters and joke makers. Everyone contributes something different, and rep doesn't change how the site comes across, honestly. It is like picking a specific instrument to represent the entire orchestra, it doesn't work because everyone brings something new to the table.

I still stand by my first post. Downvoting something just because you think it doesn't deserve the rep it got is basically downvoting out of spite.

 

I agree almost 100%, except the bit about downvoting out of spite. It just doesn't feel like that strong of an emotion to me.

 

(I could go on about Freudian slips and unconscious jealousy even if they aren't consciously against it, but I won't, because I don't actually know a whole lot about that yet. )

Edited January 12, 2016 by Slowswift