Upvotes and Downvotes

[Orlion Blight]

I think most people are also saying that generally a theory takes much more time to write out and support than a quick joke, so the upvotes should reflect that.

Time and effort does not equate value or quality, particularly at one's opinion level. If one works hard or long on a post, that does not mean the post merits positive recognition. One is never entitled to an upvote merely because of effort, but rather of actual value others place on the post.

And if a meme is valued more than a theory, maybe that theory is really not that great, and it should be worked on instead of taking out one's frustration on a "less worthy" post.

[DreamEternal]

And if a meme is valued more than a theory, maybe that theory is really not that great, and it should be worked on instead of taking out one's frustration on a "less worthy" post.

Or maybe the upvote system is flawed and heavily favors instant gratification instead of in-depth discussion.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Maybe both Orlion and DE have valid points without being completely in the right or the wrong?

[Orlion Blight]

Maybe both Orlion and DE have valid points without being completely in the right or the wrong?

My point depends on it Edited January 9, 2016 by Rime of the Ancient Orlion

[Stormgate]

I would like to express my opinion on the upvote system, specifically the downvote. First, I do not believe that many members, especially new ones, are familiar with the system and the policies regarding them, especially the downvote. Up until this thread came up, I viewed the downvote as essentially the average member's version of a warning, telling them that what they did was out of line. I don't believe that I will use the downvote to 'correct' upvote counts that are, in my estimation, too high, especially with the new quota in effect (does it apply to downvotes as well as upvotes? I'm not willing to test it.) In my opinion, there should probably be a part in the Introduce Yourself subforum description referring to the rules. While the subforum immediately below that contains the rules, it may be ignored by new members, as it was for me. That's just my opinion.

Also, is there a way to suggest new ranks? I'm not sure what it would be called, but I think that there should be a rank at 42. RAFO, perhaps? (The answer to the ultimate question of Life, the Universe, and Everything.) Not Sanderson humor, but I would get a kick out of it if I were a RAFO. I completely understand if it doesn't get used, either the suggested rank or upvotes necessarily. When appropriate, I see myself as free to offer my suggestions, whether on Sanderson theories or on the format for the website. I don't know what goes on in the planning meetings for the Shard, I just view my suggestions as potential--not necessarily likely--options that could be taken. I'm sorry for rambling, I tend to do that.

[skaa]

I could adapt to any system the admins decide to implement, but I do like the rep+awards idea. It seems like the solution that will satisfy the most number of Sharders.

[Stormgate]

I could adapt to any system the admins decide to implement, but I do like the rep+awards idea. It seems like the solution that will satisfy the most number of Sharders.

Awards... I'm still fairly new to the Shard. Please explain the concept.

[Kaymyth]

I believe I was just commenting the other day about how baffling the distribution of upvotes could be.

 

What we're really experiencing here is a clash of two subcultures within the board.  I've got some level of activity within both of them, and I've long noted the disparity between the two realms.  Watching the back-and-forth on this thread has been really interesting from a sociological standpoint.

 

I can certainly see both sides, here.  My first forays into the Forum were on the Mistborn board, so my initial experiences with the rep system were that it was tough to earn.  Then I stumbled onto the General Discussion threads, and my rep level shot up.  There are a lot of things that I've seen upvotes on mine that I just sit back and think, "Huh. I didn't really think I was that funny."  And then I'll craft a post with some thought-out theoretical pondering and be left wondering the next day if anyone had even read it.

 

So I have the conflict within.  One the one hand, there's the ridiculous little creature inside me that wants to hug and pet all my little upvotes and call them George.   On the other...I look at my ranking on the top 50 list, and see myself ranked higher than top-level theorists like Kurkistan, closing in slowly on Moogle, and think, "That's not right. I didn't earn this - not like they did."  And it kind of throws me for a loop. 

 

And here's the thing - I do, in fact, value some of my upvotes more than others.  The rep that I gain from my minor insights on the Mistborn boards, that means more than what I got for the silly jokes about Doctor Who being Cosmere¹.  For what I share of my cosplay projects and writing, those mean a huge amount to me just by virtue of how much time and work I put into those creations.  I feel like those should be solid gold instead of green.  But even those pale in comparison next to the comments.  Feedback is the food on which the soul of the creator survives.  A number in green is nice, but the little notification in my e-mail that says "17th Shard" blows it all away.

 

Truth is, I would feel sad if the rep system were reset or removed altogether.²  And Chaos has said that trying to split it up or otherwise complicate it would be too unwieldy to code.³  I like the idea of adding in the awards system (I haven't been around long enough to remember what those were like) to supplement things.  People crave feedback of all kinds, so having alternatives to the rep system might indeed be the answer we need. 

 

I find myself leaning towards appreciating people and posts with words, rather than with upvotes, since I feel that words have more worth than upvotes nowadays. (e.g., Getting my theory torn apart by Moogle, even if it wasn't very affirming, let me know that someone was responding to me and thinking about what I had to say.)

 

Heh.  I've had that happen a few times.  I've learned that sometimes, no response from him is a good response.  It means that he still may not quite agree with what I'm saying, but he can't find anything wrong with it, either.

 

 

 

 

¹ Though it totally is.

 

² Of course, I also feel sad whenever I see a lonely glove or shoe lying by the side of the road, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

³ My husband is a systems administrator who delves into a bit of coding, so I know a bit more than I should just by listening to him curse at his computer screen occasionally.  Trust me when I say that Chaos is not only not exaggerating about the difficulty in board upgrades with all those customizations, but is probably actually understating it.  Some of the suggestions I've seen so far would ultimately cause him much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Kaymyth

[Haelbarde]

What I like about Rep is the funny little titles you get. Do I care about the number? Not really. The 'total posts' number is of more use to me. And even then, it's not all that important. Like some of the others here, when I firsted joined the community, my focus was the theory crafting, and I remember Kurk as being particularly notable as an important contributor to that. Getting a vote or two for an theory meant a lot. I guess I like the idea of removing the repuation number, but keeping the ability to upvote, and increasing the upvote quota to a fair number. Theory crafters won't approach the quota, and the RPers and Community goers get more upvotes. I don't know what I'd want to be done with the Rep title. Do they still work if you don't publically reveal the number?

 

How do the awards work, by the way? Because it would be cool for there to be awards/trophies or something that could appear under a users name on their posts that showed they were an important contributer in a particular area of the forum.

[Chaos]

I am extremely tired and can't respond to the many excellent posts that have been made here, but I do want to say that the quota will be increasing. Power users will still hit it, I imagine, but it has been decided that indeed, 10 is too low.

Other things I want to post about include an in-depth explanation on why quotas should probably exist, why downvotes should exist, and balancing book discussion and off topic discussion--two extremely valuable pieces to 17S. That and more... Coming soon, when Eric has had more than a little sleep and is home from traveling for two days.

[Voidus]

What I like about Rep is the funny little titles you get. Do I care about the number? Not really. The 'total posts' number is of more use to me. And even then, it's not all that important. Like some of the others here, when I firsted joined the community, my focus was the theory crafting, and I remember Kurk as being particularly notable as an important contributor to that. Getting a vote or two for an theory meant a lot. I guess I like the idea of removing the repuation number, but keeping the ability to upvote, and increasing the upvote quota to a fair number. Theory crafters won't approach the quota, and the RPers and Community goers get more upvotes. I don't know what I'd want to be done with the Rep title. Do they still work if you don't publically reveal the number?

 

How do the awards work, by the way? Because it would be cool for there to be awards/trophies or something that could appear under a users name on their posts that showed they were an important contributer in a particular area of the forum.

The awards were little pictures that used to appear underneath your reputation rank IIRC, the ones I remember were the 'secret' award, the means of achieving which was secret, two awards for contributing to the coppermind, one for being a regular contributor the other for being a major contributor/making a page which was exemplary, at least one, maybe two for miscellaneous contributions to the fandom like transcribing or translated the Alethi womens script, one for participating in Brandons Q&A, one I think for getting a question RAFO'd and a few were for RL events like midnight launch parties.

EDIT: Also I think one of the Admins had an award, the requirement for which was being that Admin. My mind says it was either Joe or Zas but I don't think it was actually either

Edited January 9, 2016 by Voidus

[Chaos]

Josh had a Rubix cube award for impressing him in particular. That might be what you're thinking of.

[Voidus]

Josh had a Rubix cube award for impressing him in particular. That might be what you're thinking of.

That might have been it, but I feel like it was an award that only one person had.    Not sure.

 

 

I am extremely tired and can't respond to the many excellent posts that have been made here, but I do want to say that the quota will be increasing. Power users will still hit it, I imagine, but it has been decided that indeed, 10 is too low.

Other things I want to post about include an in-depth explanation on why quotas should probably exist, why downvotes should exist, and balancing book discussion and off topic discussion--two extremely valuable pieces to 17S. That and more... Coming soon, when Eric has had more than a little sleep and is home from traveling for two days.

On this note, thank you so much to our admins for not spiking us opening up the discussion for everyone to discuss this and give feedback and letting us know the reasons behind the decisions. I've always loved how open and approachable the 17th Shard staff are.

So now that that's said... when are we getting badges back? (I kid of course, I'm sure it comes with many difficulties and now is not the best time)

[Chaos]

That might have been it, but I feel like it was an award that only one person had. Not sure.

On this note, thank you so much to our admins for not spiking us opening up the discussion for everyone to discuss this and give feedback and letting us know the reasons behind the decisions. I've always loved how open and approachable the 17th Shard staff are.

So now that that's said... when are we getting badges back? (I kid of course, I'm sure it comes with many difficulties and now is not the best time)

After the site update. And since I've failed to meet other estimations on when that is done, I'm just not going to say when that will be xD.

Basically I don't want to reimplement a system only for it to need to be overhauled in a new version.

[Voidus]

After the site update. And since I've failed to meet other estimations on when that is done, I'm just not going to say when that will be xD.

Basically I don't want to reimplement a system only for it to need to be overhauled in a new version.

Well that seems fair enough I suppose.

Any chance I could get a 'most worried about the return of badges' badge when they come back?

 

 

Time and effort does not equate value or quality, particularly at one's opinion level. If one works hard or long on a post, that does not mean the post merits positive recognition. One is never entitled to an upvote merely because of effort, but rather of actual value others place on the post.

And if a meme is valued more than a theory, maybe that theory is really not that great, and it should be worked on instead of taking out one's frustration on a "less worthy" post.

Just to quickly address this too since I just saw it, the problem as I see it is that memes aren't being valued more, they're just being seen more, having a centralized 'funny' thread like that generates dozens of viewers while most theories get maybe 5 or 6 unless they really kick off, so even though the theory may be excellent, unable to be improved, is new and provides a unique insight it will still generate far less upvotes than a single meme that took all of 10 seconds to make.

[Young Bard]

Personally, the post I agree with most on this thread is Claincy's. He said everything I would have.

 

I'll try to insert some new arguments in just so everything is on the table, and everyone can make up their mind.

 

Exhibit A: "People claim they don't care about upvotes, but they seem to care about downvotes."

 

This is a known phenomenon. It's called loss aversion. Basically, at it's core: Give a monkey an apple, it's happy. Give a monkey two apples, it's happy. Give a monkey two apples, and then take one away, it goes nuts. Humans, while a bit more sophisticated, have the same reaction. My point is neither here nor there, I'm just explaining what the psychological cause is, and leaving others to decide what they think.

 

Exhibit B: "You could once have judged someone on their reputation on how well informed / Brandon informed they were, but can't any longer."

 

I can't comment on this. I wasn't here during that era. But, looking around, the vast majority of the time, I can pick where someone is likely to hang out at a glance (mainly because of their signature). Is it full of espoused theories? Or does it have advertising slogans for the Dark Alley or the Reckoners RP?

 

The other point is, you have told me that the rep system used to be different. You haven't told me that the old system used to be better, which I think is an important distinction. Just because you personally liked it more, it doesn't mean everybody did, as proved by the other side of these arguments.

[Meg]

A lot has happened in this thread since my first post and it seems that I've opened a can of worms.

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I'm rather fascinated to read about users themselves feeling kind of 'overwhelmed' with the amount of reputation points they got. Though that shows a bit what I wanted to express.

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Much better than I could have done Kurkistan and others described the meaning the reputation points had (and IMHO should have). There was also mentioned that they themselves do appreciate 'deserved' points over such given for funny comments. (That sounds weird, I see it, but I don't come up with a better wording, though others already explained much better what I want to say.)

So, you might see, that it's about the ratio not the pure amount of points, that was confusing me and also nagging at me, I admit this.

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Kaymyth called it a "clash of subcultures", I'd rather call it a "clash of two generations" (which, I think, is not contradicting Kaymyth, at least that is not my intention).

When I came to these forums reputation points were new to me, I've never had such in other forums I participated in though I did and do participate in different forums for around (at least) 13 years now. I was introduced to the use of up- and downvotes as is mentioned in different posts here. They were usually thoughtfully given for good and insightful posts or such that were helpful, backing one other's post if they lacked a source etc. Downvotes were even more rare. Thus I was stunned by the sudden influx of rep points some month ago.

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Honestly, prior to this thread I didn't realize what changed the usage. That just occurred when I read the comparison to reddit and how it works there. It might also be the reason why it feels (to me) that sometimes seemingly points are given for the author not the content of their post.

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And this is the huge and fundamental difference between how I (and others) see the reputation system while that 'new generation' mostly sees it as a 'thumbs up' not an expression for approval or disapproval (that's put very, very vaguely so please don't fixate on this ).

Thus also some feel that offended when they got downvotes. I just see it now.

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Do you see what I want to say? Our green and red buttons are not alike the 'like'-button of reddit, facebook and co. Thus the downvotes are inherent part of our reputation system as are the upvotes.

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If such a 'like'-button could be included aside of the reputation system, I wouldn't mind at all.

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PS: Please don't wonder about the points, it's when I write something offline the forum's software just *steals* my breaks without them.

[Left]

As much as I'd love such a thing, having multiple "lines" to go down is not a thing easily implemented.

Also, mark my words about the awards, Twi. When that becomes a thing there'd probably be a few awards for each different big area of the site. Mark my words, I will make a pony award just for you guys.

Perhaps with rep levels and awards we can all be happy? I don't foresee the quota ever going up to the previous cap, though, but could be a bit higher than 10, potentially.

Regarding the Bad Day thread, though that is very sweet to do, I do worry that that idea of upvotes as sympathy is a little dangerous and is toeing closeish to reputation abuse. "Post in this thread for sympathy upvotes" is not really the intent. I would again argue that quotas balance this. But I suppose this is the whole counterargument from Kobold, that that is an acceptable use. Maybe, I don't know.

I've been catching up on reading through this thread, and haven't reached the end yet, but I like this post.

I really like the idea of badges/awards that might be able to balance the rep system a little. I remember discussions about it six months or a year ago that said they weren't likely, but if they are now that'd be great.

I'm not a fan of resetting everyone's rep count. I'm not very active now, but I worked hard to get the rep I have, and if the rep got reset then I'll likely never come anywhere close to what I have now.

I am uncomfortable with the amount of up votes the bad day thread uses. It doesn't feel like a thread that adds much new content to the forums, and yet it's one of the highest upvote threads I've read. I love the idea of s thread for supplying a healthy place to rant, comfort, and advise, but I honestly feel like the rep has undermined maybe the last 75 pages.

When I first joined rep was still mostly earned by the theorizers and SE players. Personally, I still see the Reckoners and other RPs as very similar to the SE players, and don't mind the high rep gotten from hubdreds of pages of well done role playing. I think they add an important part to the community, and the content added is probably pretty good stuff(I haven't read much of it).

I think that the rep that feels most inflationary to me is in the general discussion and general Brandon discussion. Both have multiple threads that don't feel, to me, like they add much meat to the site. They do add nice things though.

Would it be possible to turn off upvote and downvote options for those areas? Limit the areas where upvotes can be given?

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I agree, ScottLeft. I think there should be policy regarding the distribution of upvotes on the bad day and random stuff threads. Sympathy upvotes, while doubtlessly well-intended, are a large contributor to devaluation. Like I've said before, I think a lot of the problem could be curbed by informing everyone of 17S's stance towards proper use of upvotes.

While I'm here, I have a question for those of you who have been here for a longer time and have stood witness to this change in voting patterns : Do you bear ill will towards the less serious "new generation" of Sharders?

 

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I support a greater distribution of upvotes over limiting "improper" usage. I like all the upvotes I've gotten, whether from humor or more serious posts….but like Kaymyth said earlier, I value some upvotes I've received over others. I'm prouder of the 12 upvotes I got for an RP post than I am of the 30 for a meme, because I feel I did more to earn those 12. 

 

That said, the notion of defining memes or sympathy as "improper" doesn't sit well with me. I feel people should be allowed to express their appreciation for whatever they please. I do, however, feel that users could be encouraged to upvote theories or other meatier posts—reward effort as well as effect. 

 

I'll say this up front: I don't know how to accomplish this. I have some thoughts, but no idea whether or not they would work. But I do feel that the distribution of upvotes should be more even than it is. 

[Voidus]

I agree, ScottLeft. I think there should be policy regarding the distribution of upvotes on the bad day and random stuff threads. Sympathy upvotes, while doubtlessly well-intended, are a large contributor to devaluation. Like I've said before, I think a lot of the problem could be curbed by informing everyone of 17S's stance towards proper use of upvotes.

While I'm here, I have a question for those of you who have been here for a longer time and have stood witness to this change in voting patterns : Do you bear ill will towards the less serious "new generation" of Sharders?

Well I'm sort of in both camps in that I used to be a pretty frequent poster on the theory boards (Mostly commenting on the theories of others) and now I'm a frequent RPer and visitor of the general discussion threads, though I still lurk in the cosmere boards a fair bit.

I don't bear any ill will towards those new threads, I don't think anyone intended for it to be used as a rep mine that's just how it ended up. I don't think that even if it were possible to do so that we should forcibly remove upvotes from those sections, partially because there are occasionally more serious, Brandon-related discussions there, and partially because I feel like that would be seen more as punishing the people who use those boards.

[Left]

While I'm here, I have a question for those of you who have been here for a longer time and have stood witness to this change in voting patterns : Do you bear ill will towards the less serious "new generation" of Sharders?

I'm probably the youngest of the older generation(to steal Meg's term) and I certainly don't. They help keep the forum active. My old forum died out from lack of use, so I'm very appreciative of people who can keep forums going while we wait for new books and WoBs. Do I hold them in less revere than Kurk or Skaa or Chaos? Yup.

[Mestiv]

As many people before me wrote, I too think that reintroducing Badges or Awards or whatever you call them would be a great way to:

1. Help everyone identify the type and quality of content a user usually generates.
2. Give everyone something to aspire to, reducing the amount of attention given to the rep points.
3. Make the 17S an even more amazing place

4. Help with creating content for Coppermind

 

Might I only ask how the awarding process worked? Was there an algorithm that detected if a user is eligible for an award or was it 100% manual thing run by admins?

Some people have wondered if removing the overall sum of rep points (but leaving the silly title) from under the profile pictures would help. I think that may help our current problem, but it might generate new ones. Leaving the rep count for singles posts is very important IMO, as it simply makes people appreciated and that is not a bad thing. 

 

Here is an upgrade I'd like to suggest for the single post rep display. Currently, if the post has rep > 0 it is marked with green, zero is grey and < 0 is red. Why not introduce a scale that would be specific for every forum? Let's say that in General Discussion, an average rep count for a post is X. Now, the closer the reputation of a post is to this average X, the greener the rep counter becomes. When the rep count reaches 2*X, the color changes to blue or something like that, to emphasize the fact, that this single post is above average for this board. So, in result, instead of having a general counter of reputation for user, we would be able to judge the popularity of this single post in comparison the other posts on that board. In General Discussion that would mean that this post was very funny, made a lot of people laugh, received a lot of sympathy or whatever, depends on the context. In the theory forums, a post with above than average reputation would still stand out, even if this reputation is 1/10 of what would be required for a post to reach "blue status" on GD.

If we leave the rep system as it is now, I think the disproportion between the social users and theory users rep will still be there. Socialists ( ) post generally more and the things they write are I think read more frequently, so obviously they have more potential for upvotes, no matter the quota. I personally joined the Shard to have a place to write about the books, but honestly stayed here for longer because of the social side of this site. The positive atmosphere of the Community subsection is just great and I honestly think, that upvotes are a part of this. Will this place still be that good with less upvotes? Yes it will, but the 10 upvotes limit is too low and I'm very happy that it will be risen.

 

Replacing ranks based of reputation with ranks based of post count is counterproductive in my opinion. This system would be abused even more by topics like "Random Stuff" or "How unoriginal...". So I say no to that.

 

The amount of time I'm spending weekly at this point trying to fix issues that are arising because of the rep system is insane. I have to do something to fix that, because right now, the reputation system is threatening the culture that I've worked so hard to create.

 

Could you please elaborate on that? I was honestly surprised that there are even may be problems rising from reputation system that require admins attention   I think that it would help us all reach some kind of agreement or at least it would help the change-opposing fraction (myself included) to understand what kinds of problems you are facing every week...

[Meg]

Could you please elaborate on that? I was honestly surprised that there are even may be problems rising from reputation system that require admins attention   I think that it would help us all reach some kind of agreement or at least it would help the change-opposing fraction (myself included) to understand what kinds of problems you are facing every week...

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Sorry, just for my curiosity: Have you ever worked as part of the staff on a forum? Please don't feel offended, I really just would want to know.

[Mestiv]

No, I haven't. Just like most of us I guess. That's why I'd appreciate if you show us how it looks from your side

[Meg]

I can't speak for the admins of the 17thShard-forums. Nor would I claim to do this unduly. But I can try to tell of my own experiences:

I have been moderator on a forum from the very beginning of this. I can't even estimate how much time, blood, sweat and tears the admins there have put in the forums but just the part I saw and participated as member of the staff was amazing.

It is about developing, changing for the better, discussing problems, deciding what to do with users who don't follow the rules, seeing to the threads if any ran out of course , mediating between users, trying to help users with on topic and off topic (as in technical) problems, give advice.

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There's a lot of time invested aside from what Rubix told: the very purpose of maintaining a well administrated forum that has earned it's renown.

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Here, fortunately (at least I hope it's the case), it's less about keeping users at bay than I was used to. But I know also of that issue that few people seem to care about the rules of the forums they are participating in. Or may be "care about" is too strong a term, and I'd better say: Few read those rules if they are not 'forced' to.

That is kind of frustrating not only because making the rules also is not done en passant but discussed and wellconsidered.

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Also I know from my own activity that 'staff' is not by bad purposes not willing to talk about some topics. As much as I dislike this as a user, I do understand it when I try to put myself in the staff's shoes. (Oh my, I hope the dictionary told me good phrases. )

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It might be mentioned also by me that the staff here, of "The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite" is not employed but doing their job here on their own free time. I know, you (we) all do but it's different to 'just post' (that is not meant to degrade!) or to -- even if freely -- doing duty.

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I hope this helps a bit.