Upvotes and Downvotes

[Curiosity he/him]

There have been times where I thought of an enjoyable joke, but then stopped myself because it felt like I was "cheating" the system.The posts that I put twenty minutes into gained a couple upvotes, but a meme that took me two seconds to think of and a minute to make received 25 upvotes. It makes me less happy about upvotes, even if I know that I made people smile. 

 

I am more proud of most of my theory discussion posts than I am my 15 memes that now make up what seems like a third of my rep. I do confess that, at times, I posted something somewhere because I was sure it would get more upvotes, and I wanted to see the little green number next to my name go up. Eventually, I realized that I really would rather be down at "Full Feruchemist" right now and have rep points for thoughtful posts. I don't want to peruse rep pages and find a ton of jokes. I want to see things that I put work into crafting and actually have some weight to them.

 

It's nice to know that the community enjoys puns and pugs, but I would like to have a community that values formally stated theories and well-crafted opinions just as much or more. 

 

Cognizantastic has a good point (overall), and I wouldn't mind a "split" rep system (an equivalent of a "Like" button along with what we already have). However, I understand that this isn't the easiest or most elegant solution. 

 

I find myself leaning towards appreciating people and posts with words, rather than with upvotes, since I feel that words have more worth than upvotes nowadays. (e.g., Getting my theory torn apart by Moogle, even if it wasn't very affirming, let me know that someone was responding to me and thinking about what I had to say.)

[Amanuensis he/him]

I don't have much to say given the fact that personally I'm not very invested in the reputation system and therefore have no strong feelings towards keeping it as its always been or making altercations to it, whatever the reasoning for that may be. However I will throw in the only serious thought I have had regarding this subject / situation.

 

I believe this discussion would benefit significantly from the implementation of a community poll to make the final decision. While I believe the admins have the absolute right to exercise their adminship as they see fit, I'm also a fan of democracy. I think one of Kobold's most important points (in my opinion) is the lack of representation from the Roleplayers compared to the Theorizers. So, I would say that giving all members until the end of January to vote on what they believe is best for the reputation system before a real change is introduced would be the most amiable option for us at this point. Just make sure to have an option for the players like me who really don't care what the result is, so long as it is the result that makes the most people happy.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Adavantos

[Mashadar Mistborn he/him]

Well is there any way to count upvotes on individual posts but not for a member's sum total? I'd be fine with that.

Seconded. I was just about to propose that myself, though if that is possible, making a poll topic, announcing it on the news topic and waiting a few days to see what everyone thinks will keep a tiny portion of us from deciding how everyone's quota works.

And then ninja'd by Adavantos with the same idea. This is becoming amusing.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Mashadar Mistborn

[Voidus]

Well is there any way to count upvotes on individual posts but not for a member's sum total? I'd be fine with that.

I imagine there is but then that completely removes the other popular use of reputation, as a way to keep track of the Shards most prolific, well versed users.

Something I could see though is to do exactly that and bring back the forum badges in it's place, they were a great way to show who contributed to what, and occasionally acted as a bit of inspiration to edit the coppermind, participate in more theories or search out secret posts. That way those of us who participate a lot in RPs could have an RP badge, while those who spent several hours on a single post about the relationship of quantum mechanics to shardic investiture can be known for that with a theorizing badge.

I know the admins have already mentioned that they want to but personally I honestly feel like that's the best solution to the problem, let individual posts be upvoted but not show a collective reputation, that removes the problem of having a single centralized reputation pool and the re-addition of badges would still let people know at a glance what users are the best known and for what they are known.

[Chaos he/him]

One vocal person can't speak for an entire class of the forum whose voting habits are being prohibited by your new rule.

Chaos, consider the fact that you, plural, the administrative staff, stripped away the full voting rights of the entire forum without warning or consultation of its members. You explicitly did this as a counter-measure against the fact that the highly active jokers and RPers of the site tend to get more frequent shows of appreciation than the theorists who only post sporadically.

I may be alone on this, but to me this feels like an attack against the jokers and the RPers. It is our habits that have been banned without warning from the forum, and it is we who are already most strongly affected by the change. Policy was created behind our backs to handicap us, for the stated purpose of leveling the playing field for some strange pseudo-economic competition that I didn't even realize people were serious about.

And yet you claim that not hearing the opinions of the people whose forum experiences you've most impacted is not particularly relevant? I challenge that assertion, sir.

Suddenly changing the rules to handicap a class of your forum's members is not cool, Chaos. Restrictions like this are serious business, and to implement one suddenly, without even talking to us, for the purpose of tying us down and preventing us from communicating what we want to communicate... well, it's hard to see that as anything else but an attack against the way we interact with each other.

You don't have to agree, but do you at least see the point I'm trying to make?

Okay, two things. Firstly, I mean that arguing which way the majority of the forum's opinions skew is not particularly relevant. It isn't.

Secondly, I highly encourage people to make their voices heard. As I had said previously, the numbers can be adjusted here, and are not final.

Third, I would like you to chill out a little bit.

I would also like to comment that the reputation system is not a "right". Again, as I said before, we may decide, eventually, that the reputation system is not a useful thing for the site and turn the entire thing off. We would likely notify of such a drastic change. But altering quotas is not a change on that level. We wish to see how this works out as an experiment. Numbers will surely be tweaked. But, systems can and will change and we might not give notice on this.

We generally feel that reputation has less value nowadays, for reasons that others have described in this thread, and are testing a good quota.

You see, this is not intended to be an attack. It is intended to be a balancing act. There's obviously two sides to the coin here and we need to try and balance both of them to what hopefully can be an agreeable middle ground. Maybe that is unachievable. As I said earlier, there might end up being no one happy. That may be a scenario where we turn off the system and say good riddance.

Also. Please take a deep breath and relax. This is getting very heated. I do see what you are saying (though personally, I feel saying that this damages what you want to communicate is... Extreme, to say the least).

[Chaos he/him]

You will have to excuse another hastily written reply (and a double post at that--I know, look how much of a rebel I am. I cannot WAIT for proper multiquoting on the mobile site). I am currently on the road traveling back to Montana. Every time you see me post today, I am at a rest station or I pulled over the side of the road.

Regarding splitting reputation systems: inelegant at best. But I generally dislike it because though in theory, with enough effort this is possible, making custom alterations really makes upgrades and security patches MUCH harder to implement. The less custom stuff, the better we can be on top of that stuff. If we did implement this, every new version we would need to test to make sure our custom systems work, or are not broken. It is a huge pain.

Regarding removing the tallies from under your name: possible and easy to implement, but I do really like the silly ranks.

Regarding overall voting: probably not, but please comment.

[STINK he/him]

I would be fine with getting rid of the reputation system.

[Voidus]

You will have to excuse another hastily written reply (and a double post at that--I know, look how much of a rebel I am. I cannot WAIT for proper multiquoting on the mobile site). I am currently on the road traveling back to Montana. Every time you see me post today, I am at a rest station or I pulled over the side of the road.

Regarding splitting reputation systems: inelegant at best. But I generally dislike it because though in theory, with enough effort this is possible, making custom alterations really makes upgrades and security patches MUCH harder to implement. The less custom stuff, the better we can be on top of that stuff. If we did implement this, every new version we would need to test to make sure our custom systems work, or are not broken. It is a huge pain.

Regarding removing the tallies from under your name: possible and easy to implement, but I do really like the silly ranks.

Regarding overall voting: probably not, but please comment.

As evidenced by my previous (And to be honest, current) desire to lose 18,000 reputation just so I can be a chasmfiend corpse, so do I. Could it be tied to post count or something? That way we still get silly titles but they don't come with the status that the reputation-based titles do, it's just something that slowly changes every now and then as just an amusing aspect of life on the Shard.

[little wilson she/her]

As evidenced by my previous (And to be honest, current) desire to lose 18,000 reputation just so I can be a chasmfiend corpse, so do I. Could it be tied to post count or something? That way we still get silly titles but they don't come with the status that the reputation-based titles do, it's just something that slowly changes every now and then as just an amusing aspect of life on the Shard.

 

This is the system that TWG had, and while some people *cough* posted an absurd amount of pointless RP in the These Stupid Titles thread to inflate their post count and gain new reps so they could continue posting in that thread about things like being a Lonely Hermit, Soup Kitchen Owner, or Abdicator, it was overall a really fun system. There were also 6-7 different classes, and you picked one when you registered. Student of Light Magic, Student of Military Arts, Student of Death, etc. Oooh, that could be interesting to have the Shardworlds be the classes..... Not sure if that kind of a system (multiple classes) is possible though.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I don't feel well-informed enough to argue forcefully for any side, and my opinions aren't strong enough for that anyway, but I like the idea of forum badges or some other method of showing where a member got the majority of their rep. I'm an active RPer and a frequent contributor to off-topic threads. I'm ecstatic (though still a little baffled) that my rep is so high, but would I want someone thinking I'm a first-class theorizer? Heck no! I rarely, if ever, visit the Cosmere boards, and I'd rather have people who earned their rep through well-crafted theories be honored for it. Go ahead and identify me as someone who got to where she is through fanfic and memes, because that's the truth. If it encourages others to upvote theories more fervently, that's all the better.

if the upvote quota is raised in the future, though, I would support that. I frequent the Bad Day threads, where upvotes are used as a show of support in addition to encouraging or commiserating comments. The thread would most likely survive on comments alone, but upvotes are immensely helpful, especially when you don't quite know what to say to help.

[+Slowswift]

This is the system that TWG had, and while some people *cough* posted an absurd amount of pointless RP in the These Stupid Titles thread to inflate their post count and gain new reps so they could continue posting in that thread about things like being a Lonely Hermit, Soup Kitchen Owner, or Abdicator, it was overall a really fun system. There were also 6-7 different classes, and you picked one when you registered. Student of Light Magic, Student of Military Arts, Student of Death, etc. Oooh, that could be interesting to have the Shardworlds be the classes..... Not sure if that kind of a system (multiple classes) is possible though.

 

 

Honestly, I personally would like to think that having individual post upvotes would and having post count control titles be best. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Slowswift

[Curiosity he/him]

That's true, I do enjoy the rep titles, so I would be disappointed by their disappearance. A reset of the rep system wouldn't be catastrophic, but I feel that it might be frustrating for the people who have been on here for years and have built up a significant reputation, even if it isn't 1,000.

[Voidus]

This is the system that TWG had, and while some people *cough* posted an absurd amount of pointless RP in the These Stupid Titles thread to inflate their post count and gain new reps so they could continue posting in that thread about things like being a Lonely Hermit, Soup Kitchen Owner, or Abdicator, it was overall a really fun system. There were also 6-7 different classes, and you picked one when you registered. Student of Light Magic, Student of Military Arts, Student of Death, etc. Oooh, that could be interesting to have the Shardworlds be the classes..... Not sure if that kind of a system (multiple classes) is possible though.

That sounds awesome.

I insist that this become a mandatory system. Not just in the Shard too. Everywhere. Someone fundamentally alter the internet please!

[Chaos he/him]

That sounds awesome.

I insist that this become a mandatory system. Not just in the Shard too. Everywhere. Someone fundamentally alter the internet please!

As much as I'd love such a thing, having multiple "lines" to go down is not a thing easily implemented.

Also, mark my words about the awards, Twi. When that becomes a thing there'd probably be a few awards for each different big area of the site. Mark my words, I will make a pony award just for you guys.

Perhaps with rep levels and awards we can all be happy? I don't foresee the quota ever going up to the previous cap, though, but could be a bit higher than 10, potentially.

Regarding the Bad Day thread, though that is very sweet to do, I do worry that that idea of upvotes as sympathy is a little dangerous and is toeing closeish to reputation abuse. "Post in this thread for sympathy upvotes" is not really the intent. I would again argue that quotas balance this. But I suppose this is the whole counterargument from Kobold, that that is an acceptable use. Maybe, I don't know.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

As much as I'd love such a thing, having multiple "lines" to go down is not a thing easily implemented.

Also, mark my words about the awards, Twi. When that becomes a thing there'd probably be a few awards for each different big area of the site. Mark my words, I will make a pony award just for you guys.

Perhaps with rep levels and awards we can all be happy? I don't foresee the quota ever going up to the previous cap, though, but could be a bit higher than 10, potentially.

Regarding the Bad Day thread, though that is very sweet to do, I do worry that that idea of upvotes as sympathy is a little dangerous and is toeing closeish to reputation abuse. "Post in this thread for sympathy upvotes" is not really the intent. I would again argue that quotas balance this. But I suppose this is the whole counterargument from Kobold, that that is an acceptable use. Maybe, I don't know.

I would support a pony award.

With the potential rep abuse in the Bad Day thread, I don't think that was anyone's intention. I can see where that would be a danger, but I don't think anyone in that thread is intentionally using it as a rep farm. The potential is there, though, so I can see how that would be a concern.

[Voidus]

As much as I'd love such a thing, having multiple "lines" to go down is not a thing easily implemented.

Also, mark my words about the awards, Twi. When that becomes a thing there'd probably be a few awards for each different big area of the site. Mark my words, I will make a pony award just for you guys.

Perhaps with rep levels and awards we can all be happy? I don't foresee the quota ever going up to the previous cap, though, but could be a bit higher than 10, potentially.

Regarding the Bad Day thread, though that is very sweet to do, I do worry that that idea of upvotes as sympathy is a little dangerous and is toeing closeish to reputation abuse. "Post in this thread for sympathy upvotes" is not really the intent. I would again argue that quotas balance this. But I suppose this is the whole counterargument from Kobold, that that is an acceptable use. Maybe, I don't know.

What about just a single line tied to post count?

I just still feel that a single collective reputation count isn't going to work since even with a Quota threads like the bad days thread or Random stuff are the most visited threads and so most people will still spend their quota there, it'll make it less extreme if the quota is low but I think it'll still be pretty biased.

[Kobold King he/him]

I just still feel that a single collective reputation count isn't going to work since even with a Quota threads like the bad days thread or Random stuff are the most visited threads and so most people will still spend their quota there, it'll make it less extreme if the quota is low but I think it'll still be pretty biased.

 

 

My thoughts exactly. I think the ten-vote quota stifles us but isn't likely to solve any of the problems people are complaining about. The fact will always remain that jokes and RP posts are more frequent and more likely to get noticed than the theories that post on a sporadic schedule--especially since the theory boards tend to hibernate through the long waits in between novels.

[STINK he/him]

My thoughts exactly. I think the ten-vote quota stifles us but isn't likely to solve any of the problems people are complaining about. The fact will always remain that jokes and RP posts are more frequent and more likely to get noticed than the theories that post on a sporadic schedule--especially since the theory boards tend to hibernate through the long waits in between novels.

 

One question, who is 'us'?

[Kobold King he/him]

One question, who is 'us'?

 

 

Everyone. The rule impacts everyone, even though you are not among the many people unhappy about it.

[STINK he/him]

Many people unhappy? Where are these many people?

[+Slowswift]

Well, you can certainly count me as one of them. And Kobold, obviously. There are also plenty who haven't posted here who have opinions.

[STINK he/him]

That is true. Can I count them for my opinion too?

[+Slowswift]

How so? Not really sure what you're saying. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by Slowswift

[Kobold King he/him]

Many people unhappy? Where are these many people?

 

 

Me, Voidus, Twi, Mashadar, Slowswift, and others on the forum who haven't found their way here and aren't being fairly represented in this thread's demographics.

 

When I say "us," I refer to the people who agree with me. If you want to use "us" to refer to people like you, I won't argue with you. But please stop nitpicking my wording to imply us as a minority.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Kobold King

[Chaos he/him]

Everyone. The rule impacts everyone, even though you are not among the many people unhappy about it.

You are getting a bit aggressive and heated. Relax, take a sip of tea, and don't be aggressive to other members. Seriously, watch it. It will be okay. Chill.

You want a conversation? Then I encourage them to post. I am happy to see Twi and Slowswift post here.