Upvotes and Downvotes

[Voidus]

As many people before me wrote, I too think that reintroducing Badges or Awards or whatever you call them would be a great way to:

1. Help everyone identify the type and quality of content a user usually generates.

2. Give everyone something to aspire to, reducing the amount of attention given to the rep points.

3. Make the 17S an even more amazing place

4. Help with creating content for Coppermind

 

Might I only ask how the awarding process worked? Was there an algorithm that detected if a user is eligible for an award or was it 100% manual thing run by admins?

Some people have wondered if removing the overall sum of rep points (but leaving the silly title) from under the profile pictures would help. I think that may help our current problem, but it might generate new ones. Leaving the rep count for singles posts is very important IMO, as it simply makes people appreciated and that is not a bad thing. 

 

Here is an upgrade I'd like to suggest for the single post rep display. Currently, if the post has rep > 0 it is marked with green, zero is grey and < 0 is red. Why not introduce a scale that would be specific for every forum? Let's say that in General Discussion, an average rep count for a post is X. Now, the closer the reputation of a post is to this average X, the greener the rep counter becomes. When the rep count reaches 2*X, the color changes to blue or something like that, to emphasize the fact, that this single post is above average for this board. So, in result, instead of having a general counter of reputation for user, we would be able to judge the popularity of this single post in comparison the other posts on that board. In General Discussion that would mean that this post was very funny, made a lot of people laugh, received a lot of sympathy or whatever, depends on the context. In the theory forums, a post with above than average reputation would still stand out, even if this reputation is 1/10 of what would be required for a post to reach "blue status" on GD.

If we leave the rep system as it is now, I think the disproportion between the social users and theory users rep will still be there. Socialists ( ) post generally more and the things they write are I think read more frequently, so obviously they have more potential for upvotes, no matter the quota. I personally joined the Shard to have a place to write about the books, but honestly stayed here for longer because of the social side of this site. The positive atmosphere of the Community subsection is just great and I honestly think, that upvotes are a part of this. Will this place still be that good with less upvotes? Yes it will, but the 10 upvotes limit is too low and I'm very happy that it will be risen.

 

Replacing ranks based of reputation with ranks based of post count is counterproductive in my opinion. This system would be abused even more by topics like "Random Stuff" or "How unoriginal...". So I say no to that.

 

 

Could you please elaborate on that? I was honestly surprised that there are even may be problems rising from reputation system that require admins attention   I think that it would help us all reach some kind of agreement or at least it would help the change-opposing fraction (myself included) to understand what kinds of problems you are facing every week...

On the subject of awards I think they were all just handed out by admins, which would probably mean quite a lot of work ahead since we have so many more members now so I understand why they have been gone for so long.

On the subject of replacing titles with post counts rather than rep, my logic on the matter was that post count isn't really indicative of anything other than time spent on the Shard so it removes the competitive nature of the ranks, it's no longer about attaining the 'highest' rank like God Beyond, it's just an amusing little extra thing to identify people with.

[Mestiv]

Yes, your insight is very useful to help us appreciate staff's work However, I was mainly interested in problems that are specificaly caused by the rep system. I figured that admins and mods are putting a lot of work to make this forum as great as it is, but how is current reputation system making it harder?

[Orlion Blight]

Yes, your insight is very useful to help us appreciate staff's work However, I was mainly interested in problems that are specificaly caused by the rep system. I figured that admins and mods are putting a lot of work to make this forum as great as it is, but how is current reputation system making it harder?

Speaking merely as a poster, reputation can derail a conversation. This could be the mostly benign "Oh, I accidentally downvoted something, please fix it!" "Fixed", the middle ground "How does So-and-So have so much rep! That's crazay!" and the incredibly disruptive, "I got, like, two downvotes and the blaggard will not show himself!"

 

Such interruptions can go on for...ev...er..., and the solution would seem to be: change the culture/how we view Reputation points or turn this Shard car around and get rid of the system.

[Rubix]

Yes, your insight is very useful to help us appreciate staff's work However, I was mainly interested in problems that are specificaly caused by the rep system. I figured that admins and mods are putting a lot of work to make this forum as great as it is, but how is current reputation system making it harder?

 

I'm working on a response that I'm hoping to be able to get to you today. Might be tomorrow.

[Voidus]

I find it interesting that I can see the political alignments of certain users (who have already shared their opinions) by their responses to this topic. I never would have thought that one's opinion on forum reputation would reflect opinions applied to more worldwide issues.

I can see the anarchist in Kobold, the something-akin-to-a-communist in Voidus, and the democratic socialist in myself.

It's fascinating, how something like this can apply to something much larger.

I'd like to see this as well, if possible.

The Dark Alleys are not attempting to impose a communist state what are you talking about.     

It is an interesting thought how much can be divined from a conversation like this, but personally I'd rather try to deduce what people's favorite condiment is.

[Orlion Blight]

The Dark Alleys are not attempting to impose a communist state what are you talking about.     

It is an interesting thought how much can be divined from a conversation like this, but personally I'd rather try to deduce what people's favorite condiment is.

 

Yours is HP Brown Sauce, isn't it? I knew it!

[RippleGylf]

So, my opinion on the matter is that I rather like the upvote system. It does seem like the value has decreased over time, but I haven't really noticed since I joined after most of the upvote inflation. I would really not like ranking based on post count. On a previous forums I was on, rank was based on post count, and the majority of my high rank was due to a forum game. (Vending Machine, to be specific.) If we were to have a post system instead of upvotes, there would be much more clutter posts, partly due to a sudden lack of upvotes. I wouldn't mind having badges, though.

[+Slowswift]

Clutter posting -- or, you know, spam -- is one of the main reasons I like the rep system. That little green arrow, to me, is a way to say "noted and appreciated" instead of taking up space on the page with statements irrelevant to the discussion. Not to say you can't express appreciation and then continue the conversation, but many times there's a post I liked but I didn't want to post for a variety of reasons. Upvotes are a good solution for that, I think.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Clutter posting -- or, you know, spam -- is one of the main reasons I like the rep system. That little green arrow, to me, is a way to say "noted and appreciated" instead of taking up space on the page with statements irrelevant to the discussion. Not to say you can't express appreciation and then continue the conversation, but many times there's a post I liked but I didn't want to post for a variety of reasons. Upvotes are a good solution for that, I think.

 

It's also a good argument against linking rank to post count. Years ago, I was part of a forum that did a sort of hybrid system—instead of rep, we had "blessings." One post earned you one blessing, and although you could earn blessings by playing games or taking quizzes, there were a few members who would spam threads to earn quick blessings. There weren't a lot of them in the corners I frequented, but having to report someone because they kept copying and pasting text from my signature into their posts in the middle of an RP game was pretty annoying. 

[+Slowswift]

It's also a good argument against linking rank to post count. Years ago, I was part of a forum that did a sort of hybrid system—instead of rep, we had "blessings." One post earned you one blessing, and although you could earn blessings by playing games or taking quizzes, there were a few members who would spam threads to earn quick blessings. There weren't a lot of them in the corners I frequented, but having to report someone because they kept copying and pasting text from my signature into their posts in the middle of an RP game was pretty annoying. 

 

True. 

 

...sigh. There's really no such thing as a perfect system, is there?

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

True. 

 

...sigh. There's really no such thing as a perfect system, is there?

 

Nope.  

[Stormgate]

Any system is broken if people decide to abuse it. The best we can do is try to keep the abuse as limited as possible while still hopefully allowing for normal, entertaining interaction.

[STINK]

Or we get rid of the system. Then you'll get no abuse from it.

[Stormgate]

If there are no upvotes, people might just start commenting "Upvote!!!" Do not doubt the capacity of humans to annoy each other. People who want to annoy another person are second in resourcefulness only to idiots (that's why you can't make anything idiotproof: they keep making a better idiot.)

[STINK]

If people did constantly post upvote, I assume others would react to that. 

[Rubix]

If people did constantly post upvote, I assume others would react to that. 

 

Oh, there would be a reaction, and it would be swift.

[Voidus]

Oh, there would be a reaction, and it would be swift.

[Mistrunner]

Count me with the pro-rep system people.

Personally, I'm in favor of the dual rep/badges thing, so you can see where they got their rep from. That would solve a lot of things in my opinion at least.

One of the reasons I personally like the rep system is similar to something posted before, about how responding to things rather than upvotes can quickly turn into spam. But even if I can respond, sometimes I don't want to. You usually can't tell, but I can be a very insecure person. I've written out some posts that I couldn't get up the nerve to post because I couldn't believe anyone would care what I thought. I've found myself using that little arrow to show appreciation rather than a response because I don't feel comfortable responding but I still want them to know someone liked what they wrote. Does that make sense?

True, a lot of undeserving things get huge amounts of upvotes, but I don't thing anything short of deleting the rep system could truly stop that. Like some people have pointed out, it's mainly about how many people see things. I'm okay with having rep only count on each post, if it comes to that.

Anyway. That's my two cents.

[King's Twit]

The old upvote amount was very high. Now it is 10.

 

As in 10 per day or 10 ever?

 

Probably a dumb question, but if it's 10 ever, I need to start making them count. 

 

Edit: I'm an idiot who didn't realize the post was more than one page. Asked and Answered by page two.

Edited January 10, 2016 by King's Twit

[Young Bard]

Voidus agrees with the admins...

 

Voidus becomes a mod...

 

Just joking with you guys. No offence meant.

Edited January 10, 2016 by The Young Bard

[Haelbarde]

Curious, with the Rep, does the precise number of rep that you have, across all your posts (i.e. the number in the (usually) green box next to your posts) truly matter to you? 

[Chaos]

Voidus agrees with the admins...

 

Voidus becomes a mod...

 

Just joking with you guys. No offence meant.

Not the primary reason, haha We've looked into him a long time.

[Kestrel]

Kinda off topic but not really, can you sort your posts based on number of upvotes they've gotten? To see which posts have the most, etc?

[maxal]

Surprisingly, I have not seen this topic until this morning.

 

First of, congratulations to Voidus on his future child   Welcome to the wonderful world of parents 

 

Second of, the downvote system.

 

The Admin and the Mods do know how I personally feel about it. I would however take the time to explain, in more details, why I think stricter rules surrounding the attribution of the downvotes should be applied.

 

I have been told, in a repetitive manner, the downvote system is sound, works well and serves to control the reputation on the posts. While I agree bringing down a post which has 8 upvotes down to 7 upvotes, if we personally feel its reputation is over the top, bears little consequences, I would like to bring attention to negative reputations being given to posts for no other reason than someone disagreeing. 

 

By negative reputation, I mean posts who go down into the red, not posts who lose one reputation score. Taking out reputation out of a post is one thing, negatively flagging a post for no other reason than a mere dislike of the opinion being conveyed is not an attitude we should encourage. Each time I bring this up, I am told the system will eventually fix it, no harm is done.

 

I disagree.

 

The system does not automatically corrects unwarranted negatively flagged posts. The users don't automatically, genuinely fix downvotes when they encounter them. For instance, I would like to bring everyone's attention to the following post. I think we would all agree it is rather insignificant and yet it has been lingering in the red for over a month: nobody saw fit to fix it despite the obvious absurdity of such posts needing to be negatively targeted. 

 

This is one absurd example where the system did fail. How many of my posts would still be uselessly lingering in the red had I not made a public display of my displease? 

 

 

The reality is the upvote/downvote system is not treated in the same manner in the various sub-forums. Others have, of course, commented on it. Upvotes are more freely given in the General Discussion sub than on the Stormlight Archive one. Downovtes however are more freely given in the Stormlight Archive sub than on the General Discussion. Yes, there is quota, but it is meaningless. The downvotes are effectively used in a negative, pejorative way which currently discourage individuals from expressing opinions which aren't popular. 

 

I thus need to ask if this is actually the kind of behavior Sharders want to encourage? A system where a detailed, long, non-aggressive, non-confrontational post may receive a negative reputation simply for expressing the thoughts of a minority? Shouldn't we want to encourage fair discussions where all opinions are treated with respect and all posters feel free to share their thoughts without fearing to be negatively targeted? 

 

Encouraging this behavior simply encourages the uniformity of thoughts. It says: "Hey you aren't allowed to not enjoy character XYZ story arc.". It also sends the message being alone on your side of the fence means you are going to receive adversity not only in the manner of words, but in the manner of an injuring red flag which only serves to increase uselessly the aggressiveness level of the one who receives it. I sincerely do not know many posters who react positively upon receiving a red flag unless they actually earned it.

 

Yes negatively flagging posts sometimes is warranted when a poster goes overboard, starts becoming aggressive and disrespectful. It is a warning, a flag: you are doing something wrong. However I fail to understand the purpose of giving a red flag to a post the initiator has obviously spend a considerable amount of time crafting simply because "you don't agree with it, but do not want to waste your time responding."  A poster who uses this behavior to express itself isn't sending the right message. The one who receives the red flag isn't just brushing it away thinking "oh someone disagrees", no he spends time wondering what was wrong with the post, what sentence got the downvoter enraged and when all fails, he may just leave the discussion as who wants to spend half an hour to write posts who are automatically received with a -1?

 

I thus therefore disagree with any rule who would not only approve but encourage such use. Unlike what the Admin and the Mod team think, I don't want the entire system to be redesigned to befit my personal wishes: I simply don't want to see posts fall in the negative without it being a good reason and "I don't agree" does not strike me as a "good reason". This isn't Reddit and we should strive to steer this community as far from it as possible.

 

I wish for discussions to be conducted with dignity, respect. I want all opinions to be respected and all to be free to express their thoughts no matter how unpopular, as long as they are respectful and I don't want these people to receive negative reputations on their posts simply because the majority disagrees. When an opinion is unpopular, others generally reply to it: bringing the post down into the red is not serving any positive purposes.

 

Please be aware the downvotes aren't always used in a good and positive manner. Also don't ignore the negative stigma is brings to a poster to have so many posts lingering in the red, don't ignore how discouraging and disheartening it is to receive such a response when all you are trying to state is an opinion and in some case a mere preference. How can you be downvoted for having a preference?

 

My target in writing this is to raise the awareness on the negative side of those downvotes, the negative stigma.

 

I don't want the downvotes to be removed, but I want them to be controlled in a more effective way.

[Blaze1616]

I really like the idea of the award system having specific badges to show where users frequent on the forum, allowing others to see where they got their reputation from. I'm curious as to how difficult this would be to implement. As Voidus noted, it seems to have originally been a manual system (particulalry due to Coppermind and 17S accounts not being linked). Chaos, I saw you noted that it's the updates that would make localization of upvotes a nightmare. Would that same reasoning apply here? If we assign specific badges algorithms to reference a user's upvotes in each Forum and apply badges when it's hit a certain number, would updates royally screw with that? If not, it sounds like the ideal situation as of now. If so, then it's an even worse idea than the localization of rep because every badge with an algorithm would need to be tracked after each update.