Upvotes and Downvotes

[Mailliw73]

Voidus nailed perfectly most of my thoughts on the matter already, so I don't have much to say.

I'd also like to second the badges(yeah, I know, they're coming) idea. Those were cool when I first joined but were removed shortly after, so I never earned one. The titles being tied to post count instead of reputation is also something I highly support, if possible.

I personally think the quota would be good at 15. 10, even for me, and I don't up vote anywhere near as prolifically as some other members, has been a bit small. I hit it earlier today and j was intentionally saving up votes. So, if you're taking suggestions, 15 is my preference.

[STINK]

Me, Voidus, Twi, Mashadar, Slowswift, and others on the forum who haven't found their way here and aren't being fairly represented in this thread's demographics.

 

When I say "us," I refer to the people who agree with me. If you want to use "us" to refer to people like you, I won't argue with you. But please stop nitpicking my wording to imply us as a minority.

 

It's not labeling you a minority, it's just very easy to say that 'we' think that this should happen and 'we' don't like this, while actually being your own point of view. Yes, I saw the random thread where people posted memes and lamented the lack of upvoting. All 8 or so pages of it? 

 

Considering the lack of others complaining about the rep system, it means that not everyone on the forum was mad about the rep, so I asked about who you were 'representing'. 

 

I don't really get what you mean about the thread's demographics being represented, do we need to invite people from the introductory forum here for their opinion so that they can represent the 'newbies' who are being unfair represented?

Edited January 8, 2016 by IrulelikeSTINK

[Kobold King]

It's not labeling you a minority, it's just very easy to say that 'we' think that this should happen and 'we' don't like this, while actually being your own point of view. Yes, I saw the random thread where people posted memes and lamented the lack of upvoting. All 8 or so pages of it? 

 

Considering the lack of others complaining about the rep system, it means that not everyone on the forum was mad about the rep, so I asked about who you were 'representing'. 

 

I don't really get what you mean about the thread's demographics being represented, do we need to invite people from the introductory forum here for their opinion so that they can represent the 'newbies' who are being unfair represented?

 

 

In the interest of civility I will keep this brief:

 

1. There are people unhappy about this change.
2. I am one of them.
3. I can logically use the plural first person "we" to refer to these people. You are welcome to do the same in reverse.

 

The other people are welcome to come speak their piece or not. My point is only to prove that the word "we" is indeed applicable in this discussion.

[STINK]

Speaking of, I'd be interested to know what the current demographics being overly represented are, and what demographics aren't being represented. We might be able to reach those demographics for the campaign of reputation.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Speaking of, I'd be interested to know what the current demographics being overly represented are, and what demographics aren't being represented. We might be able to reach those demographics for the campaign of reputation.

I'm not entirely sure if this is sarcastic or not (it's hard to tell over a computer screen when you don't know a person, so sorry if I assumed something that wasn't true ) but I'm here from whatever demographic I am.

[Mailliw73]

Speaking of, I'd be interested to know what the current demographics being overly represented are, and what demographics aren't being represented. We might be able to reach those demographics for the campaign of reputation.

I just posted a link to this thread in the Random Stuff thread to see if more of that opinion will be shared.

[Voidus]

 

Many people unhappy? Where are these many people?

To mirror Chaos' warning to Kobold I feel like you're getting a bit needlessly aggressive here too, there's no need to jump down someone's throat just for speaking in the collective, this is just a discussion for feedback on the idea, we're not warring factions about to face off in an argument-to-the-death.

I also agree that the quota reduction isn't a great idea, even though I disagree with Kobold in that I think there is a problem to be solved. It just feels a bit stifling to have a limit imposed like this, I understood having it to prevent reputation abuse and even having it lower than it previously was since almost no one hit that but 10 is really quite limiting. I'm going to hit that limit pretty much every day, which means I have to really pick and choose where I put them (Which is admittedly the point but I think it won't influence the places that the upvotes are spent, merely quantity so I still don't think it will solve the problem). I just think it'll make for a less pleasant forum experience if I have to stop and read and re-read a post, track how many upvotes I've given today and weigh that against the upvoteworthiness of the post.

[STINK]

Sorry if that's the impression I'm giving. 

[Kurkistan]

@Irule

*Puts on mod hat for a moment*

It is the impression you're giving. I'd advise that you dial it down. Right now so far as I see you're deliberately trying to provoke Kobold. If not, my apologies for misreading you and let's keep things more unambiguously civil.

[Kestrel]

Meh, I'm highly indifferent.

I love the ranking system with upvotes, however, its much better than inflating post count for rank.

However I myself don't use the upvotes a bunch because this is the first site I've been on with them and I don't see the need to upvote every post I come across.

I've never hit quota to begin with, and I don't think I've ever given 10 in one day. So yeah, indifferent.

Besides, it doesn't effect the conversations we have, you know?

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Thank you, Chaos, for the opportunity to set out our thoughts on the reputation system.

The ultimate issue at stake appears to be what rep is awarded for.

The two opposing sides are that rep is either to acknowledge a contribution to the community, or because a post made you smile.

My own view is that rep is far more valuable if it represents the contribution - rep is universal across the boards, and would mean far more if indicative about the contribution a user had made to the community - the status quo of rep meaning two different things dependent on its origin prevents it from telling anything about the member in question.

Rewarding people for making you smile seems wrong - when people make jokes, they make them for the end result of having other people laugh - not to accrue upvotes - and arguing that you need to encourage people to make jokes through points seems insidious - as if people don't care about others enough for the intrinsic reward of livening other's days, and are instead just having a competition.

In terms of solutions, the most sensible that I've heard (with my own amendments) are the following:

1) Preclude posts from the General Discussion/Non RP posts of the Reckoners RPG) from adding to the Rep *count* of users - but allow them to be upvoted - meaning that those who see upvotes as a reward for making people smile, residing primarily in these boards, can upvote for this purpose without it distorting the value of rep across the forum.

2) If this is not feasible, then I'd support simply removing upvotes from these areas - see my point above about upvotes not being necessary as a reward for making people smile.

3) Ultimately, an abolition of reputation would not be an issue in my mind - currently a user's reputation score is meaningless.

[Claincy]

To add my opinion to the mix:

 

I don't think there is much of a case for arguing that individual upvotes haven't been drastically devalued over the last couple of years. When jokes and memes that took a few moments to create garner ten+ upvotes the value of an individual upvote is clearly less than when each one was a hard earned recognition of effort/achievement. That said, to what degree this does or doesn't devalue the reputation system as a whole is far less clear cut.

 

I think it's important to acknowledge and consider how the site and community has changed over the years. When I joined 17s was primarily a theory crafting board. General discussion, roleplaying and other parts of the forum were pretty empty. The theory crafting parts of the site are still very significant but other parts of the forum have grown massively. The culture of the site has always remained friendly and inviting but other aspects of it have shifted considerably and while I think a harsh rep quota might have a positive impact on the theory-crafting boards and encourage more careful crafted theories over idle speculation I am concerned that it might have some degree of a negative impact (at least in the short term) on some of the more social parts of the site.

 

To be clear, I personally preferred it when upvotes were hard-earned. I don't at all mind them being handed out for things other than theory crafting as there are plenty of other significant ways to contribute but I did prefer it when they held more individual significance. That said, I think a reply is always better than an upvote unless all that reply would have is a smiley or "this" or "I agree" or the like. Two years ago I would have been rather unhappy to hear that by this point in time there would be posts with over 100 rep and that only 1 of them would be by Brandon. In my opinion none of those posts (including my own ) deserve near that many rep points.

 

With all that said. I don't think it's possible to go back to the way things once were, or that we should try to do so. I'm concerned that the potential benefit in slowing exponential rep gain from having a low quota won't match up to the frustration it will cause.  I'm also not excited by the idea of coming across more posts that consist of a statement about how they're sad that they can't upvote someone along with an animal gif/pony pic. I would prefer an excess of upvotes to that kind of clutter. To be clear, I'm not attacking anyone who's made those kind of posts, especially if it was in random stuff, but I don't really like the idea of seeing that kind of post in more serious topics where it doesn't contribute anything to the actual topic and just takes up space to say what an upvote could have said just as well. But maybe that wouldn't/won't happen and I'm being concerned about nothing, we shall see.

 

Just to make my personal biases clear: The quota of 10 doesn't directly effect me as the way I hand out rep hasn't changed all that much in the past couple of years. You can call me stingy if you want but I only upvote when I think a post really deserves it and hasn't already received more upvotes than I think it warrants. I don't downvote posts because I think they have too many but that's personal preference. That said I'm trying to think of how it will effect the community in general, not how it will effect me

 

I'd be totally fine with a system where overall rep was hidden but it still existed for individual posts and an award system was reintroduced. I do enjoy the silly ranks but I suppose they could be covered pretty well by the awards anyway. Truthfully though I'm ok with whatever decision is made so long as a clear statement of the intention of whatever changes/system is made and that it's something that you're confident you will continue to be largely satisfied with and that probably won't go through any major changes again 6 months down the line. I think there is always going to be some negative consequences to any change made to these kind of systems, some people who will be unhappy about it, and the longer a system has been in place the worse those consequences are likely to be.

Edited January 9, 2016 by lord Claincy Ffnord

[Mailliw73]

I also agree that jokes, while funny, don't necessarily deserve 20 up votes. Especially compared to theory crafting or well-written RP. I do believe that roleplay or well done analysis(Sanderson Elimination is what I'm thinking of) deserves upvotes. That's where the majority of my upvotes go. If there's a joke that I find particularly funny, I'll upvote it regardless of the current reputation that post has. The biggest problem I see is, and this is just an example and shouldn't be construed as an attack as I really do like this member, that when Twi posts one of the best roleplay posts ever written on this forum and it gets just over ten upvotes(which is extremely good) but her posting a picture of a pug can easily garner just as much if not more. What contribution did that pug really make? It didn't take effort and it didn't change much about the forum, but she kickstarted the most successful roleplay ever to be on this forum and isn't as recognized for it.

[Kestrel]

I also agree that jokes, while funny, don't necessarily deserve 20 up votes. Especially compared to theory crafting or well-written RP. I do believe that roleplay or well done analysis(Sanderson Elimination is what I'm thinking of) deserves upvotes. That's where the majority of my upvotes go. If there's a joke that I find particularly funny, I'll upvote it regardless of the current reputation that post has. The biggest problem I see is, and this is just an example and shouldn't be construed as an attack as I really do like this member, that when Twi posts one of the best roleplay posts ever written on this forum and it gets just over ten upvotes(which is extremely good) but her posting a picture of a pug can easily garner just as much if not more. What contribution did that pug really make? It didn't take effort and it didn't change much about the forum, but she kickstarted the most successful roleplay ever to be on this forum and isn't as recognized for it.

Exactly.

As someone who makes a lot of jokes here, I post them without expecting anything and honestly expecting downvotes, heh. But yeah, I fail to see how me posting a spur of the moment pun can get 15+ upvotes when some art I post gets only about 2 or 3.

Bringing down the quota will cause the upvotes to mean more. I thought it was so cool to be upvoted when I first joined until I learned it was standard procedure to upvote just about every post under the sun.

[Mailliw73]

Exactly.

As someone who makes a lot of jokes here, I post them without expecting anything and honestly expecting downvotes, heh. But yeah, I fail to see how me posting a spur of the moment pun can get 15+ upvotes when some art I post gets only about 2 or 3.

Bringing down the quota will cause the upvotes to mean more. I thought it was so cool to be upvoted when I first joined until I learned it was standard procedure to upvote just about every post under the sun.

Back when I joined, it was rare. Very rare. I think I went six months of active posting and got to 16 rep. Then it slowly became more and more common with a sudden spike about a year and a half ago, I think. Now upvotes are tossed out, not meaninglessly, but very often.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I also agree that jokes, while funny, don't necessarily deserve 20 up votes. Especially compared to theory crafting or well-written RP. I do believe that roleplay or well done analysis(Sanderson Elimination is what I'm thinking of) deserves upvotes. That's where the majority of my upvotes go. If there's a joke that I find particularly funny, I'll upvote it regardless of the current reputation that post has. The biggest problem I see is, and this is just an example and shouldn't be construed as an attack as I really do like this member, that when Twi posts one of the best roleplay posts ever written on this forum and it gets just over ten upvotes(which is extremely good) but her posting a picture of a pug can easily garner just as much if not more. What contribution did that pug really make? It didn't take effort and it didn't change much about the forum, but she kickstarted the most successful roleplay ever to be on this forum and isn't as recognized for it.

I didn't take it as an attack. And that's always baffled me, too--I'll spend a good chunk of time polishing an RP post that earns 5 upvotes (which is good to average, depending on the thread) but a joke can earn twice that easily. And it happens with other members, too; I can't tell you how many RP posts I've seen that I feel should have earned more rep than they did.

Edited January 9, 2016 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles

[Kestrel]

Oh yeah, I was never implying that they are meaningless; I always feel good when I get an upvote. But it would mean a lot more if the quota of allowed ones was less so people would spend their votes on something they truely liked, laughed at, or enjoyed looking at/reading.

[Claincy]

I used to see 'Sanderson Memes' as my accomplishment. I saw it as an idea that I brought that took root and made people laugh. I was proud.

Now, I'm just ashamed of my role in the devaluation of upvotes. I don't really deserve the rank that I have. The entirety of my "serious" contribution to the forum consists of a dumb topic about Szeth's last name and an even dumber, rambling topic about the oldblood title in SA. My most upvoted posts are a silly song about the 17th Shard (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/24115-17th-shard-the-song-shake-it-off/) and the starting post for 'Sanderson Memes'.

Theorizers, I apologize for creating a joke thread that contributes to the lack of appreciation you guys get.

Don't be so hard on yourself Making people laugh is absolutely a worthwhile endeavor and by doing so you provide a valuable contribution to the community. I don't think anyone here wishes those threads never existed, just that the rep balanced more.

 

Claincy, I'm sorry for displacing you as #50...

Heh, once upon a time I would have cared. But I've been largely maintaining a low level of activity here for around a year and a half and I was genuinely surprised I hadn't been displaced much sooner.

Edited January 9, 2016 by lord Claincy Ffnord

[STINK]

I should probably write more about my thoughts on rep, so here we go.

 

As you can see from my profile, I'm comparatively new to the forum. Haven't got much rep, and I haven't got many posts. Mostly stick to the SE subforum, and read the general discussion and Reckoners RP a fair bit, but haven't posted there much. 

 

As a newbie to the forum, it was pretty clear that there was an easy way to get rep, depending on what subforum you were in. General would be a quick meme/gif in response to something (with a clear example being the Unoriginal thread) while the Reckoners RP was about the same but would also include MLP related stuff. Other subforums required more effort for the amount of rep one could get in those two subforums, such as Sanderson Elimination (which you should all play btw) which was mostly RP by players and GMs. 

 

Here is a rant I wrote down in a google doc roughly 2 months ago (I have not edited it, but I kinda wish I do because I was quite annoyed and I apologize to anyone who feels insulted by this)

 

"Alright, so basically I don’t like Rep ‘“cause it encourages the same thing, over and over with like constant references to this and that, and there are people that will do things like that to get high rep, when really the rep shouldn’t matter. It’s like, when you post a funny joke you may get some points, but you didn’t post the joke for points so it shouldn’t matter if you get any, and you don’t need points for that, as the point of a joke is to make others laugh, so they can always just reply ‘Ha! Great joke’ especially as it is a forum and most of this stuff is seen in General discussion. In fact, looking at General discussion right now, there seems to be an unoriginal thread! Wonder what could be in here? Ah okay, so it’s just mindless references, nothing too funny or original… BUT WAIT! Everyone is being upvoted? O.o More upvotes for linking an image and meming it up instead of just posting it? I guess everyone seems to love this kind of thing here, now let's look at Cosmere Theories or Brandon Discussion. Alright, picked two posts at random (not really for one, you can guess)

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/27806-kobold-king-is-actually-brandon/

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/50502-immortality-in-the-cosmere-choose-your-poison-or-whatever-the-opposite-of-that-is-general-cosmere-spoilers/

Okay, so one of this is a direct reference to the person with the current highest rep, alright. And what’s this, more references? The one post not upvoted on the front page of that is the only one that is still on topic, but just doesn’t talk about KK, while a ninja face gets 3? See what I mean about this whole clique/same thing now?

Okay, I’m gonna look at this immortality one now, looks more interesting than that other one. Huh, it’s got facts, a funny picture and jokes! This should surely be a post with a good amount of upvotes, but it only has 5. Responses that continue the joke (similar to the KK one) and also add more to the joke (great!) have 1 upvote. Is my point demonstrated well now? The facts for the immortality thread may have changed after I upvoted them all."

 

So I think this is ample enough proof that I've been against rep for a while. If anyone has any questions, just ask. I won't take anything personal so even hit me up with a PM and spout rhetoric at me

Edited January 9, 2016 by IrulelikeSTINK

[Rubix]

The admins might have their say, and they make the rules, but if I'm allowed to voice my opinion, it's that downvotes are to be used only in the most heinous of cases. And I hope strongly that no matter what the admins decide will become official policy, the 17th Shard will retain that magical positivity that has made it such a great place to be.

 

I've worked for FIVE YEARS to make sure that this community is a positive one. Cultivating that magical positivity is my primary job around here, and that's OFTEN through creating site policies. Other than that, it's PMing people, reminding them that they should be respectful members of the site. The amount of time I'm spending weekly at this point trying to fix issues that are arising because of the rep system is insane. I have to do something to fix that, because right now, the reputation system is threatening the culture that I've worked so hard to create. I'm here trying to fix it. I haven't said a lot, because a) right now, the discussion is flowing pretty well on its own, and b ) I have a day job. I'm not a miracle worker, and I don't have all the answers, so I've brought it to the community, to try to see where everybody thinks we should go. I'm listening to everyone (to so continuously insist that you aren't being heard is also rather offensive, in case you were wondering), to try to figure out the answer.

 

I've done my best, and honestly, every time I hear that this is one of the nicest places on the internet, I take it as someone saying that I'm doing a pretty good job. If you disagree with that, I'd love to hear more about exactly why that is via PM.

[DreamEternal]

Count me amongst the ones against any Rep system, I find it futile to try to make work as intended.

Its function as a way to quickly measure a poster's contribution is inherently flawed, since this community is too diverse to know in which area(RP, general discussion, jokes, theories) the poster gained said votes, and thus in which area they contributed. For exemple, Twi is the one who you can come if you need emotional support and pictures of pugs, not WoBs on timebubbles.

Not only this, but the ease of upvoting makes things that give more instant gratification, like witty jokes made in ten minutes, far more likely to be upvoted than more elaborate content, whatever it is.

Plus, when it comes to upvote distribution the odds are stacked against theory posts, since they have less imediate emotional appeal and are often met with initial ceptcism and even opposition, in the case of mutualy incompatible theories.

And on the function of upvotes as a way of showing appreciation, if said post was truly meaningful for you, maybe you could post a reply saying so? If many people already posted their appreciation, or even if you don't want to post just for that, maybe the post didn't deserve it that much or already got what it deserved.

Althought I fear the new quota means everyone will burn their upvotes at memes before they even start to read the theories.

EDIT: Not that I hate the way things currently are. Actually, the rep system is something so trivial I don't get why everyone cares so much.

EDIT2: But then, I am weird and try to not smile or laugh to much, so don't take my opinions as representative of a large group.

EDIT3: And like Lark, I never hit the quota anyway.

Edited January 9, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Titan Arum]

I don't have time to read all of this since I'm about to catch a flight (I read through page three at around 3 pm, and my has the topic exploded!), but I tend to agree with Kurk's member-hat only assessment and Meg's from early on. 

 

I have, over time, achieved one of the top 50 reps on the forum...but that's because I was one of the early people who got in on the meme action. I feel like these upvotes ARE devalued. I actually feet worse that my theory posts received only a few upvotes while my memes generated upwards of over two dozen at a time. The main reason why is that I spent a lot of time thinking about and researching my theory posts. To only get 3 upvotes for such a post but get 36+ for a throw away joke seems ridiculous to me.

 

To that end, I've stopped posting in the memes sections and don't actually post very much in general anymore unless I think it really contributes to the discussion. I still read a lot of the forum on a regular basis, but I have been (and remain) a stickler with my upvotes because I only want to hand them out now if I think an idea/theory/topic is truly original and adds something to Brandon's world and our understanding of it. 

 

Again, this is just my two cents, but I agree with a limited upvote count due to how devalued upvotes have/did become. 

[Orlion Blight]

All right. My view is that assigning value on upvotes based on "contribution to the fandom" be it theory, knowledge, art, fanfic, whatever... I think such a view is elitist. Saying that some theory post should and ought to get more upvotes than, say, a dumb joke ignores how a community's culture actually works and develops. This is not a stuffy, pseudo academic society that studies almost exclusively Sanderson content. It is a dynamic community where different viewpoints can interact and, though different, are united by the common thread that we are here because of a common (But not equal) interest in Sanderson.

As a result, I view upvotes much like how Chaos views downvotes: something each individual user can use according to their whim and conscious.

I mean, the only real issue I see with the reputation are those accidental downvotes. Those seem to be getting more common than less frequent, and maybe the cap will make the poster more careful.

[STINK]

I think most people are also saying that generally a theory takes much more time to write out and support than a quick joke, so the upvotes should reflect that.

[DreamEternal]

All right. My view is that assigning value on upvotes based on "contribution to the fandom" be it theory, knowledge, art, fanfic, whatever... I think such a view is elitist. Saying that some theory post should and ought to get more upvotes than, say, a dumb joke ignores how a community's culture actually works and develops. This is not a stuffy, pseudo academic society that studies almost exclusively Sanderson content. It is a dynamic community where different viewpoints can interact and, though different, are united by the common thread that we are here because of a common (But not equal) interest in Sanderson.

But if upvotes mean only instant emotional gratification, and not contribution, are they really necessary?

Not that I think they would be necessary anyway, but why do we need a way to measure who is best at making jokes?

If the community is to develop organically, then isn't the reputation system hindering it by incentivating certain behaviors instead of letting they happen by themselves?