Mid-Range Game 72: A Breath of Fresh Air

[OoklaApologist She/her]

2 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Okay internet at home works fine, that's good.

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

2 hours ago, KelsierApologist said:

Assuming the elims don’t kill drabs, with two players 

Start - 12 players, 12 breaths

End C1 - 10 players, 8 breaths

End C2 - 8 players, 4 breaths

End C3 - 6 players, 2 breaths

End C4 - 4 players, 0 breaths

End C5, 2 players, the attendant’s breath is used 

This assumes elims will use their breath, there are no mistakes, and I did my math right. 2 breaths per cycle does work

ninja’d by TJ

I wasn't assuming the elims would use their breaths, nor did I include the Handler. That makes me feel better.

[OoklaApologist She/her]

24 minutes ago, The Unknown Flame said:

I wasn't assuming the elims would use their breaths, nor did I include the Handler. That makes me feel better.

Another thing this doesn’t take into account is exeing drabs. (as in it assumes only people with breaths are exe’d.)

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

19 minutes ago, KelsierApologist said:

Another thing this doesn’t take into account is exeing drabs. (as in it assumes only people with breaths are exe’d.)

I think it's rather unlikely. Who knows though.

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

16 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

MR72 Cycle 1: Weakening

"I don't know how more explicitly I can say this," Kanirah said to the small gathering, but mostly to Regent Genda, who was rubbing her fingers in an uncomfortable manner. "It took our delegation two months to get through the burned sections of Idris to Bevalis. All of our priests are now dead. That's going to be enough of a disaster for you, when your runner finally makes it back. But now it's just the three of us here, and we have another problem." He waved at himself, Carmine, and Starkeeper.

Genda seemed to be trying to convey that her hands were tied, which Kanirah didn't buy for a moment. Carmine was pacing back and forth, seemingly checking the doors, realistically checking on the people within. The two of them agreed. The assassins wouldn't attack them. They'd already gotten what they wanted, unless the citizens of Idris came to their aid.

Starkeeper was going over a series of maps and the prior contracts they'd brought. She was trying to make sure they could make something of this; she was also looking for any place they could find nearby Hallendrens. There weren't many. Her spirits were high, as usual, but a few more things betrayed her. She'd wrapped her bloodied hand in a bandage, despite Bevalis' best physicians finding no physical damage. And her skin was getting pale, her motions getting slow.

"Carmine's a Drab, because it helps his profession. I have a single Breath. And Starkeeper hasn't had a Breath given to her in six days. You think you have a reckoning now, with some dissidents among your people having attacked our group. And I understand you find it distasteful to give up your Breath. But if Starkeeper the Bright, a member of the Court of the Gods, dies in your city, starved of Life and Breath... that will be war. And not a war you'll win."

"Not that anyone wins war," Starkeeper said weakly. "But I... I do not wish to die again. I have more work to do."

Kanirah gave her a glance, then returned to staring at Genda, who was wringing her hands more heavily than ever.

"... I'll see what can be done," she finally said.

- - -

Cycle 1 has begun! There will be an execution this cycle (and every cycle), with no vote minimum and ties resulting in a random tied player being executed.

As a bit of a reminder, because it's been a while since we've done this: PMs are Open during this game. To make a PM, simply create a 17th Shard PM with yourself, one other (living) player, @Ashbringer, and @Araris Valerian, and you can use it to talk player to player privately. Do note that normal SE rules apply, and in addition you cannot use PMs during rollover (same as any Doc). Also, please title the PM "MR72: PlayerName - PlayerName" or something similar.

The cycle will close on April 10th at 10:00 PM PST, in about 47 hours.

 

Player List:

  Reveal hidden contents

Players:

1. @|TJ|
2. @The Unknown Flame
3. @TwinStorm
4. @Updog. - Elidyr
5. @BridgeBoi - Timmy
6. @Kasimir - Izmir
7. @The Wandering Wizard
8. @ruler of the mists
9. @TheRavenHasLanded - Gandor
10. @Stick.
11. @STINK - Simon
12. @Hoid Slayer - Evinir

Pinch Hitters:

1. @Aeternum
2. @Illwei
3. @Ookla the Arbiter

Spectators:

1. @Terrisman

 

Okay! I'm here

Evinir stalked down the street, worried. As a decently high ranking diplomat in Bevadis, he had been one of the first to be alerted of the... incident. He had to see it with his own eyes.

Ever since the Returned's arrival in Idris, Evinir had staunchly and publicly opposed her. Evinir was one of the leaders of a new movement in Idris, that believed power should be amassed not through collaboration with the Hallandren but independent of them. Only through independence could Idris ever reach its potential. Evinir was aware his political stance was... controversial, to say the least. But he had still done the best he could to be polite to Starkeeper following her arrival. Best not to inflame the situation any more than was needed. Of course, that went out the window as soon as the Idrian priests were murdered.

Evinir arrived at the door of the Hallandren delegation, and knocked. He took a deep breath, then prepared for what came next.

3 hours ago, Stick. said:

TUF is probably a villager for that take tbh I think it’s too bold for an elim to suggest  

I think KelsierApologist and Raven are good for two people since they’ve already offered (although I wouldn’t hate  Hoid Slayer being one of the two tbh) 

I have been summoned!

I'm good with giving up my breath, if that's what the group needs

3 hours ago, Stick. said:

theWanderingWizard 

Whoah whoah whoah, already voting?

Don't we have tomorrow to deliberate as well?

Maybe there's something I'm not understanding correctly...

[OoklaApologist She/her]

24 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

I'm good with giving up my breath, if that's what the group needs

If Raven doesn’t confirm by tomorrow, then sure

[OoklaApologist She/her]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Flame said:

I think it's rather unlikely. Who knows though.

Assuming three elims, whose breaths do not count, and only misexes

Start of game: 12 players, 9 usable breaths

End C1: 10 players, 5 breaths

End C2: 8 players, 1 breath

End C3: 6 players, no breaths. If the one remaining breath is successfully used, the handler’s breath is not used

End C4: 4 players. Either the game ends or the handler’s breath is used

End C5: Absolute maximum game length with 2 person plan

Honestly, I see your previous point. What does everybody think?

 

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

1 hour ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Whoah whoah whoah, already voting?

Don't we have tomorrow to deliberate as well?

Maybe there's something I'm not understanding correctly...

We tend to vote through out the day as your votes aren't locked in when you vote, so feel free to prod someone with your vote  

Hoid Slayer

Stink

Edited April 10, 2025 by The Wandering Wizard

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

10 minutes ago, The Wandering Wizard said:

We tend to vote through out the day as your votes aren't locked in when you vote, so feel free to prod someone with your vote  

Hoid Slayer

Stink

WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH!

Watch it there, will ya?

If we’re gonna get on with votes…

*cracks knuckles*

The only person I think we could realistically make an argument for so far is Stick.. Why Stick, you ask?

Because this:

15 hours ago, Stick. said:

what we could do 

is select two people only to give their breaths away today 

 

if this group is 1 elim and 1 villager, the villa will get night killed and we will have an announcement declaring no breaths were offered (which would out the player that didn’t die) 

alternatively the elim in the pair will be forced to give their breath away which is nice for the village lol 

 

because remember, the first time the starkeeper gets no breaths it’s announced and we still get to have an exe - only after the 2nd time does it straight up give the elims victory 

 

if neither player gets night killed, it could mean anything really (the elim choosing to keep the villa alive for WIFOM or both players being elims or both being villagers kept alive for WIFOM) 

 

in all scenarios, we either get 1 free outed elim (in case there’s an announcement about no breaths) or we get to keep the starkeeper alive 

Stick proposes in this setup that it will work to out an elim, even though any elim would have to be quite short sighted to allow themselves to be outed in this way. In proposing this, however, Stick creates a vehicle for elims to “clear themselves” (even though it likely wouldn’t work like that).

(Of course, Stick also acknowledges the flaws in this strategy, so either there’s some crazy reverse psychology going on here or maybe she’s honestly innocent).

It’s a weak argument, but at least it is one. Which is *drumrolls* progress!

[TwinStorm He/Him]

I have no thoughts

except im chill with throwing out my Breath

early reads come trmw

rn im just scanning the topic

 

Edited April 10, 2025 by TwinStorm
edited for clarity

[Kasimir he/him]

7 hours ago, |TJ| said:

;-; I'm village bhai, but are you village. Are we villaging together. Did Ash indeed do the funniest thing ever? :P. Kasimir

Why are you asking me bhai? You should very well know I'm not in your doc, ergo Ash did not in fact do the funniest thing ever, thank God  

Ahhhh the beautiful feeling of being in a game with bhai again, I missed you

7 hours ago, |TJ| said:

the OOA on Breathe-giving and the elimination? If the outgoings player can always give breathe then maybe 2 players over that should be good cover. 

OoA has Breath dead last, hence my issue - we're never getting Breath out of the NKed person and the exed player, on top of the coordination issue.

11 hours ago, TheRavenHasLanded said:

STINK Why you opening a PM with me so early???? Seems odd to me. 

I kinda want to V!read this and I'm back to the place where I feel like this person (not in this game, dw) is gonna judge me, and she actually wouldn't be that wrong to do so.

Me: "Is this a Villager?"
X: " -.- "
X: "No  Stop."
Me: "JUST LET ME V!READ IT DAMNIT."

Yeah I have trauma so what.

9 hours ago, The Unknown Flame said:

We should be using objective inalterable metrics to decide who donates.

Tbqh I was gonna suggest RNG off the cuff but the error margin for that I'm not fond of. (This was more me thinking about how Araris suggested we wrangle camp defense back in Sart's Rithmatist LG73.)

17 hours ago, STINK said:

It would be a bit embarrassing if we didn't give Starkeeper their breath C1 but also kinda funny so pros and cons you know?

I don't disagree about the funny but I kinda rather not you know?

17 hours ago, Stick. said:

if this group is 1 elim and 1 villager, the villa will get night killed and we will have an announcement declaring no breaths were offered (which would out the player that didn’t die) 

This kinda assumes the Elims gonna choose to play for Breath denial, yeah? I agree that it's info to us either way whether they do so or not, but ngl my instinct regardless is that I did not expect them to play for Breath denial as it's quite likely to be an unforced error on our parts.

7 hours ago, Stick. said:

TUF is probably a villager for that take tbh I think it’s too bold for an elim to suggest  

Said while voting him smh sis

8 hours ago, The Unknown Flame said:

Three are probably elims.

I read this as "There are probably Elims" and my immediate reaction was, "No crem? You don't bloody say >>"

7 hours ago, The Wandering Wizard said:

Wait accidentally double tapping uses up both people's breath?

Yeah. Hence the error issue. We don't want to zergrush Starkeeper because if we do, then we're screwed in the following cycles and lose.

7 hours ago, Stick. said:

TUF is probably a villager for that take tbh I think it’s too bold for an elim to suggest  

TUF

8 hours ago, Stick. said:

so we actually can use the mechanic strategically, at least for the first cycle, to potentially out an elim

But having laid this out, we know they're just gonna go for the WIFOM option. But tbqh I'm completely fine with forcing them to allow us to keep Starkeeper alive this cycle. 

7 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Also, we need to look at thread mechanics as well, players likely to be killed off early (ahem Kas) should use their Breathe before players who are likely to make it to later stages of the game. 

I'm declaring that as an Idrian faithful to the teachings of Austre, I am refusing to commit the blasphemy of surrendering my Breath to one of Hallendren's blasphemous monstrosities.

...I s2g I'll RP later, I just wanted to get some responses in, someone @ me if I don't RP at all this cycle.

[The Wandering Wizard he/him]

8 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Yeah. Hence the error issue. We don't want to zergrush Starkeeper because if we do, then we're screwed in the following cycles and lose.

7 hours ago, Stick. said:

Makes sense, don't have any suspects just giving into C1 chaos and just chilling. Sorry probably no paranoia Wiz this game, I've grown up a bit  

[Ookla de los Cuervos he/him]

4 hours ago, The Unknown Flame said:

I think it's rather unlikely. Who knows though.

Whatre you basing this from? just an assumption that you wouldnt kill the drab if you were elim? it would actually be in your best interest to Kill whoever isnt drab. 

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

Why are you asking me bhai? You should very well know I'm not in your doc, ergo Ash did not in fact do the funniest thing ever, thank God  

Ahhhh the beautiful feeling of being in a game with bhai again, I missed you

OoA has Breath dead last, hence my issue - we're never getting Breath out of the NKed person and the exed player, on top of the coordination issue.

I kinda want to V!read this and I'm back to the place where I feel like this person (not in this game, dw) is gonna judge me, and she actually wouldn't be that wrong to do so.

Me: "Is this a Villager?"
X: " -.- "
X: "No  Stop."
Me: "JUST LET ME V!READ IT DAMNIT."

Yeah I have trauma so what.

Tbqh I was gonna suggest RNG off the cuff but the error margin for that I'm not fond of. (This was more me thinking about how Araris suggested we wrangle camp defense back in Sart's Rithmatist LG73.)

I don't disagree about the funny but I kinda rather not you know?

This kinda assumes the Elims gonna choose to play for Breath denial, yeah? I agree that it's info to us either way whether they do so or not, but ngl my instinct regardless is that I did not expect them to play for Breath denial as it's quite likely to be an unforced error on our parts.

Said while voting him smh sis

I read this as "There are probably Elims" and my immediate reaction was, "No crem? You don't bloody say >>"

Yeah. Hence the error issue. We don't want to zergrush Starkeeper because if we do, then we're screwed in the following cycles and lose.

TUF

But having laid this out, we know they're just gonna go for the WIFOM option. But tbqh I'm completely fine with forcing them to allow us to keep Starkeeper alive this cycle. 

I'm declaring that as an Idrian faithful to the teachings of Austre, I am refusing to commit the blasphemy of surrendering my Breath to one of Hallendren's blasphemous monstrosities.

...I s2g I'll RP later, I just wanted to get some responses in, someone @ me if I don't RP at all this cycle.

>.<

38 minutes ago, TheRavenHasLanded said:

Whatre you basing this from? just an assumption that you wouldnt kill the drab if you were elim? it would actually be in your best interest to Kill whoever isnt drab. 

Yes. Why would the elims kill a drab barring extenuating circumstances?

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, The Unknown Flame said:

>.<

Fair point, I said blasphemy twice, lemme come in again.

I'm declaring that as an Idrian faithful to the teachings of Austre, I am refusing to commit the blasphemy of surrendering my Breath to one of Hallendren's dogless monstrosities.

Also damn WIFOM is an annoying MU word imma go back to saying IKYK to respect Aonar my good man.

[Stick. she/her]

9 hours ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Stick proposes in this setup that it will work to out an elim, even though any elim would have to be quite short sighted to allow themselves to be outed in this way. In proposing this, however, Stick creates a vehicle for elims to “clear themselves” (even though it likely wouldn’t work like that).

And that is bad…why? I said they could WIFOM us and give their breath away anyway, which is perfect. If you’ll reread my argument, nowhere did I say we should use it as a means to find villagers, only as a means to find elims. So no, no one is getting cleared for giving their breath away! You get outed if there’s no breath given, and we continue with the game as normal if there is breath given  

 

STINK this is for hating spinach 

 

EDIT:

Just to make sure we are all on the same page - @KelsierApologist and @Hoid Slayer are giving their breath away this cycle yes? So @TheRavenHasLanded you can holster this cycle (only after hoid slayer confirms ideally) 

Edited April 10, 2025 by Stick.
Typo

[STINK he/him]

Stick for hating penne pasta but also I'm gonna sheep Slayer for no particular reason tbh

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

1 hour ago, Stick. said:

And that is bad…why? I said they could WIFOM us and give their breath away anyway, which is perfect. If you’ll reread my argument, nowhere did I say we should use it as a means to find villagers, only as a means to find elims. So no, no one is getting cleared for giving their breath away! You get outed if there’s no breath given, and we continue with the game as normal if there is breath given  

Well, if the strategy is being used as a way to reveal elims, then therefore anyone who gave their breath successfully was not an elim, and thus they are sorta cleared.

But since you accept this, I'm happy to take away my vote if a better candidate steps up

Speaking of votes, is there somewhere we can view all the votes for people? I don't want us all to end up voting different people and ending up with like a four way tie.

Also, what is WIFOM?

1 hour ago, Stick. said:

Just to make sure we are all on the same page - @KelsierApologist and @Hoid Slayer are giving their breath away this cycle yes? So @TheRavenHasLanded you can holster this cycle (only after hoid slayer confirms ideally) 

I'm happy to confirm, but I'm not sure how to actually give the breath away. Like, what am I supposed to do?

Spoiler

Also, I kinda wanna do some RPing...

 

[Stick. she/her]

54 minutes ago, STINK said:

Stick for hating penne pasta but also I'm gonna sheep Slayer for no particular reason tbh

nyooooooooo

30 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Well, if the strategy is being used as a way to reveal elims, then therefore anyone who gave their breath successfully was not an elim, and thus they are sorta cleared.

But since you accept this, I'm happy to take away my vote if a better candidate steps up

Speaking of votes, is there somewhere we can view all the votes for people? I don't want us all to end up voting different people and ending up with like a four way tie.

Also, what is WIFOM?

I'm happy to confirm, but I'm not sure how to actually give the breath away. Like, what am I supposed to do?

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, I kinda wanna do some RPing...

 

Wine in front of me = WIFOM, easier to explain if ur familiar with that scene from the princess bride but it’s when elims try to play mind games with the village where they know what we expect them to do and thus do the opposite (IKYK is another acronym with the same meaning) 

 

to give your breath away you simply to go your GM PM and tell ash that you want to do this (but you have to send the PM before rollover time!) 

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

1 minute ago, Stick. said:

nyooooooooo

Wine in front of me = WIFOM, easier to explain if ur familiar with that scene from the princess bride but it’s when elims try to play mind games with the village where they know what we expect them to do and thus do the opposite (IKYK is another acronym with the same meaning) 

 

to give your breath away you simply to go your GM PM and tell ash that you want to do this (but you have to send the PM before rollover time!) 

Okay, thanks!

When is rollover time?

[STINK he/him]

Rollover for this cycle is April 10th at 10:00 PM PST

As seen in the first post our GM makes where there's all kinds of lovely tidbits  

 

[Kasimir he/him]

6 minutes ago, STINK said:

As seen in the first post our GM makes where there's all kinds of lovely tidbits  

Did I miss something?

All I saw was words, smh TJ couldn't even be bothered to give us peanuts or something.

43 minutes ago, Hoid Slayer said:

Spoiler

Also, I kinda wanna do some RPing...

 

If you want to, just do it! I want to but it's been a tiring work day so I'm gonna just chill but try to do something before the cycle closes ._.

[OoklaApologist She/her]

I’m not going to be around for about four hours right before rollover (I’ll be asleep) so can we push the rollover panic up a bit?

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

41 minutes ago, Stick. said:

nyooooooooo

Wine in front of me = WIFOM, easier to explain if ur familiar with that scene from the princess bride but it’s when elims try to play mind games with the village where they know what we expect them to do and thus do the opposite (IKYK is another acronym with the same meaning) 

 

to give your breath away you simply to go your GM PM and tell ash that you want to do this (but you have to send the PM before rollover time!) 

What is it with you guys and making acronyms unnecessary complicated? 

You guys probably saw exlo and thought W(e)B(etter)E(xe)C(rrectly)R(ight)N(ow)O(r)E(lse)T(he)E(lims)W(ill)W(in)

4 minutes ago, KelsierApologist said:

I’m not going to be around for about four hours right before rollover (I’ll be asleep) so can we push the rollover panic up a bit?

Everyone smart enough to not live on the wrong side of the world should be asleep, so it should be at least a little more chill than normal.

42 minutes ago, STINK said:

Rollover for this cycle is April 10th at 10:00 PM PST

As seen in the first post our GM makes where there's all kinds of lovely tidbits  

 

Wait, people actually read those?

[Kasimir he/him]

The latest Hallendren demands had sent a chill through the entire embassy, and it was not the crisp mountain wind. Izmir knew what that chill was. No one had felt at ease when Regent Genda had first announced that the blasphemous Hallendren would be allowed to dispatch one of their soulsucking leeches to Idris to handle the latest round of peace negotiations.

A hard peace to barter, Izmir thought, when they had only a single coin that the Hallendren would accept.

"My negotiations will not fail," Regent Genda said, with more certainty than she'd displayed when talking to the Hallendren. Izmir supposed talking to blasphemers and heretics had that effect on people. "I need you. Idris needs you."

If only she was asking of them anything else other than their souls.

One of the assembled staff, Stick, had started asking for volunteers. Izmir hid a thin smile. He was no stranger to the politicking and gamesmanship, even in the heart of Idris. He was tempted to think a little better of Stick for it, though it wasn't something he would stand by. You didn't make it as one of the top Idrian diplomats without the ability to hide what you were really thinking behind a poisoned smile while offering Hallendren enough they didn't feel offended. [OOC: Probably willing to V!lean Stick a tiny bit, unhappy about this. If you pay attention to what she's doing, the reason is obvious, wouldn't stand by this firmly especially in the long run because Stick is Stick and I'm not gonna ride or die D1 read her.]

He still felt Gandor was probably not trying to sabotage the negotiations, though no one had asked him for his own opinion. There was a certain artlessness to flailing about, accusing Simon in public of trying to—to what, corrupt him into abandoning Austre and betraying Idris by the cunning use of handwritten notes? Izmir snorted, and paged shut his notebook. No. Gandor was inexperienced enough (at least to someone like Izmir, who'd been serving Idris for decades and for all of that, gotten stuck in the same Colours-cursed job for all that time. Mid-level diplomatic attaché, with no real prospects for advancement or promotion. No one gave him the interesting work.) There was a chance that someone like him might struggle to fabricate accusations, might wind up going for something as peculiar as what he eventually had. But Izmir rather thought that Gandor's accusations rang of sincerity. He would probably be happy to rethink Gandor by the third day or so of this impasse. In contrast, Elidyr, who was volunteering at about the same time as Gandor, because damning their souls apparently didn't bother either of them...he had his doubts about Elidyr. Was she too quick, too ready to commit a sin? [OOC: Weak V!read on Raven, I think the whole "why ya tryna PM me, sus" thing reads more sincere Villager suspicion than "inexperienced Elim trying to do fake-arse suspicions", will rethink or presumably get a better read on Raven or whatnot by C3. I'll add that I can see an E!Polly here to Raven's V. I'll need to see more from Polly to make a better assessment, but weak E on Polly.]

There wasn't really much to go off, but he wanted to think Simon was, on the whole, not the sort of guy who would stab one of the Hallendren. Simon just seemed ready to hang out and have a good time, and Izmir tiredly wondered how Simon felt so secure about his career prospects, let alone the ongoing diplomatic incident. Or crisis, depending on your point of view. [OOC: What it says on the tin. Most unsupported V!read on STINK ever, like his vibes, guy's here to chill in the thread, will rethink later but it's C1 y'all I'm not gonna overdo this.]

He wanted to believe that the unknown diplomat was above board, but frankly, suspected he was probably festooned with knives and wondered if anyone else was going to accuse him as well. [OOC: TUN looks Evil af and honestly I'm curious if anyone's gonna join this vote  ]

He wanted to think Evinir was probably fine. Something about the way Evinir was pressuring Stick seemed okay to him, but he'd seen that playbook before and didn't want to over-prognosticate. Sometimes, an overly-enthusiastic young diplomat seeking to climb the ranks and betray Idris while they were at it, they did that, they pushed too hard and too fast, and Izmir wasn't sure which way the knife cut this time. But...no, if they forced him to write the attestation, right here and now, he would probably say he thought Evinir was just on the level. [OOC: See my comments previously about how a certain profile of new Elim likes to make those bold pushes against confident, thread-strong Villagers. I could see this being what's going on with Hoid and don't want to consider him ride or die Village C1, but for the moment I can kind of squint and just ascribe the V read. I sort of actually had a negative reflexive read to Stick initially, and my instinct is this kind of pushback is a bit more likely to come from a V mindset.]

Well, at least with Gandor, Evinir, and Elidyr all jumping to offer their souls for Starkeeper's dinner, Izmir supposed he was safe for the moment. Safe from deciding if a man's soul was worth his career.

Austre, he didn't want to be forced to choose. Damn the Hallendren and their godless ways!