Mistborn vs. 3rd ideal Skybreaker.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

He can simply stop using all other metals when he's starting to leech with duralumin. What's the problem with that? Or later use vials.

Then the skybreaker uses more spheres undoing all that work.

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Here is another idea, that Mistborn can use - burning both cadmium and bendalloy at the same time. It gives him a protective shell of slowed down time around him, and when Skybreaker approach, he would get stuck in cadmium, giving Mistborn a lot of time to react and even shower him with rain of coins and metal, as for Mistborn, times moves normaly. That's mean that he can't really move when making bubbles (unless he's savant in both metal, not likely), but that would still work as a trap, or even better, burning metals only when Skybreaker is already in range of cadmium, stoping him. Time bubble of cadmium is the size of the room, and for bendalloy around 5-15ft, so there is a lot of space affected by cadmium, and he can even change their sizes. If he's a savant in both cadmium and bendalloy, he can burn them constantly, except just for the time, when he's shooting coins. That would make him untouchable - until he runs out of bendalloy.

While Cadmium bubbles are bigger, I doubt rhey are that much bigger.

[Letryx13]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

He can simply stop using all other metals when he's starting to leech with duralumin. What's the problem with that? Or later use vials.

Which means they’d have to catch the SkyBreaker without pewter.  It would be difficult for a MistBorn to keep up with a Radiant’s speed without it. That’s what I meant by achieve the leeching without pewter. 

 

 

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Here is another idea, that Mistborn can use - burning both cadmium and bendalloy at the same time. It gives him a protective shell of slowed down time around him, and when Skybreaker approach, he would get stuck in cadmium, giving Mistborn a lot of time to react and even shower him with rain of coins and metal, as for Mistborn, times moves normaly. That's mean that he can't really move when making bubbles (unless he's savant in both metal, not likely), but that would still work as a trap, or even better, burning metals only when Skybreaker is already in range of cadmium, stoping him. Time bubble of cadmium is the size of the room, and for bendalloy around 5-15ft, so there is a lot of space affected by cadmium, and he can even change their sizes. If he's a savant in both cadmium and bendalloy, he can burn them constantly, except just for the time, when he's shooting coins. That would make him untouchable - until he runs out of bendalloy.

Didn’t Marasi say in Alloy of Law that Cadmium and Bendalloy cancel each other out when burned together?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Letryx13 said:

Didn’t Marasi say in Alloy of Law that Cadmium and Bendalloy cancel each other out when burned together?

The bubbles do, you can burn both of them creating a very small dome of Cadmium.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Which means they’d have to catch the SkyBreaker without pewter.  It would be difficult for a MistBorn to keep up with a Radiant’s speed without it. That’s what I meant by achieve the leeching without pewter. 

Please. He first catches him with all metals, and the moment he touches him, he stops burning them and leeches with duralumin for a fraction of an second. Than he can again burn all metals. Is it that complicated?

11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

While Cadmium bubbles are bigger, I doubt rhey are that much bigger.

Their dimensions were described in the books. Cadmium bubble is the size of the room (AoL ch 12), Bendalloy is several feets. just for 2 people to fight in it in very close distance. Even if the resulting sphere had only 1ft, it would still stoped Skybreaker for a very, very long time.

11 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Then the skybreaker uses more spheres undoing all that work.

Than he can try doing it again, or just cut off his spheres in the first place. Or wait to leech until he've used most of his light. Or while leeching stab him in heart, forcing him to use more light and Mistborn can fly off, and resupply metals. There is like 100 different moves that both of them could do, do we really need to go through all of them? That's pointless.

9 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

Didn’t Marasi say in Alloy of Law that Cadmium and Bendalloy cancel each other out when burned together?

In range of Bendalloy bubble, the effects cancel each other out and time is normal there, but Cadmium bubble is larger and where not in range of Bendalloy, it is still standing and slowing time

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Their dimensions were described in the books. Cadmium bubble is the size of the room (AoL ch 12), Bendalloy is several feets. just for 2 people to fight in it in very close distance. Even if the resulting sphere had only 1ft, it would still stoped Skybreaker for a very, very long time.

They move at 200 mph, even if to was 11× slower they would easily clear the bubble before the mistborn had a chance to do anything. 

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Than he can try doing it again, or just cut off his spheres in the first place. Or wait to leech until he've used most of his light. Or while leeching stab him in heart, forcing him to use more light and Mistborn can fly off, and resupply metals. There is like 100 different moves that both of them could do, do we really need to go through all of them? That's pointless.

The spheres are sewn inside his clothes, you can't cut those out, the knife, if you somehow made it around the blade would burn up under division, as would the mistborn's hand. Even if somehow the mistborn could consistently touch the skybreaker, which they couldn't, they would lose more and more of their hand each time.

[Tglassy]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They move at 200 mph, even if to was 11× slower they would easily clear the bubble before the mistborn had a chance to do anything. 

First, 11x is a random number, considering what Marasi seems capable of slowing time down to.  She speeds through hours in minutes.  And 11x slower than 200 is 18mph, which is slow enough to react to, particularly if you have Pewter.   

3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The spheres are sewn inside his clothes, you can't cut those out, the knife, if you somehow made it around the blade would burn up under division, as would the mistborn's hand. Even if somehow the mistborn could consistently touch the skybreaker, which they couldn't, they would lose more and more of their hand each time.

Clothes can, in fact, be cut with a knife.  And since we haven't actually seen how Division works for Skybreakers, as even Nale has never used it on screen, you can't just say the Radiant automatically burns and disentigrates everything that gets near him just cause.  For all we know, using Division like this would burn through the clothing first, and therefore only things touching the Radiant's skin is burned, and we don't even know if it burns.  

Bronze should tell the Mistborn where his spheres are, so cutting them out of the clothing should actually be a decent strategy.  The Radiant doesn't really have a way to target vials of metals other than just seeing it, or maybe burning away the Mistborn's clothing.  Again, we don't really know enough about Division to know how this would work.  It could be an I Win button. Or it could just be a simi-useful defense.  There's just no way to tell.  

[Frustration]

48 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

First, 11x is a random number, considering what Marasi seems capable of slowing time down to.  She speeds through hours in minutes.  And 11x slower than 200 is 18mph, which is slow enough to react to, particularly if you have Pewter.

18 mph is almost a foot a second.

49 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Clothes can, in fact, be cut with a knife.

Do you know how hard it is to cut cloth?

51 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And since we haven't actually seen how Division works for Skybreakers, as even Nale has never used it on screen, you can't just say the Radiant automatically burns and disentigrates everything that gets near him just cause.  For all we know, using Division like this would burn through the clothing first, and therefore only things touching the Radiant's skin is burned, and we don't even know if it burns.  

We have seen division, and given elsecalling, abrasion, and lashings include clothing, I think it's fair to say that Division will as well.

53 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

Bronze should tell the Mistborn where his spheres are, so cutting them out of the clothing should actually be a decent strategy.

You can't cut cloth like that, and I would be surprised if bronze could pick up on spheres.

[Letryx13]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

Please. He first catches him with all metals, and the moment he touches him, he stops burning them and leeches with duralumin for a fraction of an second. Than he can again burn all metals. Is it that complicated?

First, if the MistBorn catches them, they have to leech and continue leeching the radiant or the SkyBreaker can just draw in more storm light. 

Second. If they stop leeching, then they’re vulnerable to the SkyBreaker summoning their blade or using division against them. And if the Radiant manages to draw in more light, they’re not going to be able to finish them quickly with pewter. The only way for a MistBorn to end the fight is to either prevent them from using Stormlight and their blade completely, or do enough damage to run them out of light/take them out in one hit. 

Third. If they’re switching from using all metals to catch the SkyBreaker to just using Cadmium and Duralumin, then the SkyBreaker can use Division against the MistBorn at the same time. Which means, even it that scenario, it boils down to who grabs who first. The. MistBorn would have to time it perfectly, but the SkyBreaker could just constantly be attempting to use Division on whatever they touched. Big advantage to the SkyBreaker. 
 

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

In range of Bendalloy bubble, the effects cancel each other out and time is normal there, but Cadmium bubble is larger and where not in range of Bendalloy, it is still standing and slowing time

While that seems effective, and it’s one of the few ways I could image a MistBorn catching a SkyBreaker without pewter, it would be extremely difficult to time that in the air. I could see it happening on the ground, but it would probably take someone with Wayne’s skill with speed bubbles to get it right. And it seems like it would be almost impossible to make it work in the air, with how quickly both MistBorn and Radiants can move through the air. 

[therunner]

13 hours ago, Tglassy said:

Bronze should tell the Mistborn where his spheres are, so cutting them out of the clothing should actually be a decent strategy.  The Radiant doesn't really have a way to target vials of metals other than just seeing it, or maybe burning away the Mistborn's clothing.  Again, we don't really know enough about Division to know how this would work.  It could be an I Win button. Or it could just be a simi-useful defense.  There's just no way to tell.  

I don't think Mistborn would be able to use Bronze like that. They would feel pulses coming from the person in general (since they hold Stormlight), + same pulses from spheres from the same direction. Not sure how they would be able to differentiate that more exactly, we have never seen Bronze used in such fine manner.

13 hours ago, Tglassy said:

First, 11x is a random number, considering what Marasi seems capable of slowing time down to.  She speeds through hours in minutes.  And 11x slower than 200 is 18mph, which is slow enough to react to, particularly if you have Pewter.  

That is the number we have been shown on screen for bendalloy (in SoS I think), and Cadmium and bendalloy effectively cancel each other out, so Cadmium slows down time 11x.
You could probably flare for a bit more, but based on WoBs it would not be that much of a change.

Also, if the Skybreaker would be moving at even half that speed (~ 100 mph), they would still cross the barrier in less then a second (they would be moving circa ~4m/s, and the layer between bubbles would definitely be less then a meter)

[StanLemon]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think Mistborn would be able to use Bronze like that. They would feel pulses coming from the person in general (since they hold Stormlight), + same pulses from spheres from the same direction. Not sure how they would be able to differentiate that more exactly, we have never seen Bronze used in such fine manner.

There is no reason to believe Bronze can't be used like that. We have descriptions from Marsh how fine tuned Bronze can be. Admittedly it would depend on how much training the Mistborn decided to put towards Bronze. Kelsier? Probably not as he never cared to train more than the basics

4 hours ago, therunner said:

That is the number we have been shown on screen for bendalloy (in SoS I think), and Cadmium and bendalloy effectively cancel each other out, so Cadmium slows down time 11x.
You could probably flare for a bit more, but based on WoBs it would not be that much of a change.

Also, if the Skybreaker would be moving at even half that speed (~ 100 mph), they would still cross the barrier in less then a second (they would be moving circa ~4m/s, and the layer between bubbles would definitely be less then a meter)

The numbers we have for Bendalloy do not reflect at all what's shown in the books. A tnt explosion goes off a few feet away from them in slow motion giving them something like half a minute to a minute to respond in AoL. For that to happen, the bubbles would have to be altering speed by dozens of times over

[Primeival Chaos]

Where did you get the number of 11x from?

Edit- Removed TLM 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Primeival Chaos

[StanLemon]

I'm not sure where the 11x comes from. The only reference in the book is a reference to a nugget of Bendalloy stretching 15 seconds into 2 minutes (8x normal speed) which is laughably less time dilation than what we see in the books

[Tglassy]

Wax and Wayne are able to have an entire conversation in the time it takes Steris and her dad to turn around and look at a piece of furniture.  They're able to have an entire conversation and come up with a plan in the time it takes for an EXPLOSION to move about 20 ft.  Pretty sure the Skybreaker isn't moving as fast as a tnt explosion. 

[Frustration]

18 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Correct me if this is wrong but this scene from TLM seems to have a different time dilation

TLM spoilers are not allowed in this forum.

8 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I'm not sure where the 11x comes from. The only reference in the book is a reference to a nugget of Bendalloy stretching 15 seconds into 2 minutes (8x normal speed) which is laughably less time dilation than what we see in the books

Someone calculated it one time, I'll try and see if I can find it.

[Primeival Chaos]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

TLM spoilers are not allowed in this forum.

My bad I removed it

[Tglassy]

I just had a reply to another thread about whether one could burn pure atium, and here's my response:

2 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

If I were theorycrafting, I would say that no, burning metals is a property of Lerasium and Preservation's power.  It's why Lerasium can be burned by anyone.  

Ruin's power is Hemalurgy.  So pure Atium wouldn't be able to be burned.  It would be to steal.  Which...maybe is why an Atium Spike can steal any ability?  It could be burned by a Mistborn, because that's their thing, but to everyone else, it would just be the ultimate Hemalurgic Spike.  

Honorblades would then work differently.  A Mistborn could burn them, as that's their thing.  And they SHOULD have a Hemalurgic function (that's scary).  But they'd also have their own 'thing'.  Which is probably "Touching this gives you surges".  Honor.  Bindings.  It binds with you without needing to be burned.  You just get the power.  

Spren blades, being both Honor and cultivation, would be different.  Maybe their "thing" is they can change form and be alive.  it's giving life to Honor's Blades.  There's also the bond to think about, which gives power, but adding Life to that power gives it a will, and thus, the Oaths can gatekeep the power.  But a Mistborn...a Mistborn should be able to burn a sprenblade.  THAT's an interesting thought.  Stab a Mistborn, and they burn your blade away.  You kill the mistborn, they kill your Spren.  Yikes.  That puts a WHOLE new thought on the fight between Mistborn and Radiants.  

Thoughts?  Put aside the "But you'll die before the blade gets burned" argument, cause that's obvious.  It IS possible to be stabbed by a shardblade and survive with it stuck in you, it's happened over and over.  It has to hit your spine to kill you, or your heart or whatever.  

But if a Mistborn COULD burn it, then stabbing the Mistborn could potentially kill your Spren, since the Spren IS the sword.  I'd imagine that it would be difficult, but possible, particularly if the Mistborn is ready for it.  And what kind of power would burning a Sprenblade, or an Honor Blade for that matter, give a Mistborn?  Potentially one that would let them survive the attack to begin with.  

I have no idea if Brandon's spoken on this, but if possible, it puts a great dent in any "Radiant Blade wins all fights" arguments.  Stab a Mistborn and maybe kill him, but lose your Spren in the process.  

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

I just had a reply to another thread about whether one could burn pure atium, and here's my response:

Thoughts?  Put aside the "But you'll die before the blade gets burned" argument, cause that's obvious.  It IS possible to be stabbed by a shardblade and survive with it stuck in you, it's happened over and over.  It has to hit your spine to kill you, or your heart or whatever.  

But if a Mistborn COULD burn it, then stabbing the Mistborn could potentially kill your Spren, since the Spren IS the sword.  I'd imagine that it would be difficult, but possible, particularly if the Mistborn is ready for it.  And what kind of power would burning a Sprenblade, or an Honor Blade for that matter, give a Mistborn?  Potentially one that would let them survive the attack to begin with.  

I have no idea if Brandon's spoken on this, but if possible, it puts a great dent in any "Radiant Blade wins all fights" arguments.  Stab a Mistborn and maybe kill him, but lose your Spren in the process.  

Mistborn can't burn shardblades without a Connection to Honor, as was said in that same thread

Spoiler

word_thief

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen…

General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013)

 

[therunner]

16 hours ago, StanLemon said:

There is no reason to believe Bronze can't be used like that. We have descriptions from Marsh how fine tuned Bronze can be. Admittedly it would depend on how much training the Mistborn decided to put towards Bronze. Kelsier? Probably not as he never cared to train more than the basics

Bronze can be fine tuned in the sense it can differentiate different pulses (pushing/pulling, different surges, different 'intents' of kinetic investiture), there is nothing to suggest it is suitable for detecting milimeter sized gemstone against a background, especially when both would give of the same pulse (one of Stormlight).

So far the smallest thing Bronze has been shown to detect are people, which are ~1000x larger. (please correct me if I am wrong on this)

Quote

The numbers we have for Bendalloy do not reflect at all what's shown in the books. A tnt explosion goes off a few feet away from them in slow motion giving them something like half a minute to a minute to respond in AoL. For that to happen, the bubbles would have to be altering speed by dozens of times over

We don't know what kind of explosive it was as far as a I am aware. It could have been something with much slower explosion.
Admittedly, shockwaves typically move at ~1000 m/s (order-wise), so for what has happened in AoL Wayne would have to have compressed time by a factor of 10000 at minimum, at which point it would start affecting light.

However at the same time, same regular bendalloy bubble canceled Bleeder's speed in SoS (as in, Bleeder perceived from inside the bubble moved at regular speed), and she was definitely not moving at ~3% of speed of light, that is ridiculously beyond even Steel compounders.

Also, the 11x factor comes directly from AoL (cannot find direct quote now), however Coppermind quotes AoL as bendalloy compressing ~2 minutes into 15 second, giving even worse compression factor.

So I would chalk up the explosion to (out of world) Brandon not really realizing just how bloody fast they are. In world, the bomb was a dud? There is really no consistent explanation.

[trav]

Chromium makes this a rather one sided battle. Drained of Stormlight the Radiant would be a regular human and strengthwise Pewter gives any Mistborn the edge.

Shardblades are the one thing that could make them win. 7/10 to 8/10 for the Mistborn. Give them Atium (or Electrum) and its 100/10.

[StanLemon]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Bronze can be fine tuned in the sense it can differentiate different pulses (pushing/pulling, different surges, different 'intents' of kinetic investiture), there is nothing to suggest it is suitable for detecting milimeter sized gemstone against a background, especially when both would give of the same pulse (one of Stormlight).

So far the smallest thing Bronze has been shown to detect are people, which are ~1000x larger. (please correct me if I am wrong on this)

Whether the Investiture is in a person or a sphere it is still the same amount of investiture. And considering Bronze can detect minute differences for someone who's trained and that spheres are generally kept in pouches it isn't really as extreme as you assume it is

6 hours ago, therunner said:

We don't know what kind of explosive it was as far as a I am aware. It could have been something with much slower explosion.
Admittedly, shockwaves typically move at ~1000 m/s (order-wise), so for what has happened in AoL Wayne would have to have compressed time by a factor of 10000 at minimum, at which point it would start affecting light.

However at the same time, same regular bendalloy bubble canceled Bleeder's speed in SoS (as in, Bleeder perceived from inside the bubble moved at regular speed), and she was definitely not moving at ~3% of speed of light, that is ridiculously beyond even Steel compounders.

Also, the 11x factor comes directly from AoL (cannot find direct quote now), however Coppermind quotes AoL as bendalloy compressing ~2 minutes into 15 second, giving even worse compression factor.

So I would chalk up the explosion to (out of world) Brandon not really realizing just how bloody fast they are. In world, the bomb was a dud? There is really no consistent explanation.

Even for bullets to move sluggishly, it would still require a great deal more time compression than 8x or 11x. Even speeding up by a factor of a thousand wouldn't have a noticeable effect on light.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Whether the Investiture is in a person or a sphere it is still the same amount of investiture. And considering Bronze can detect minute differences for someone who's trained and that spheres are generally kept in pouches it isn't really as extreme as you assume it is

But that is still detecting difference in usage not in location.
I am saying that you cannot use Bronze as a 'investiture detector' and be able to tell "pouches with spheres are by his left thigh", we never see anything of the sort.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Even for bullets to move sluggishly, it would still require a great deal more time compression than 8x or 11x. Even speeding up by a factor of a thousand wouldn't have a noticeable effect on light.

Or the bullets are relatively slow.

Still compression factors of bendalloy bubbles are wildly inconsistent if we take feats into account, ranging from 8-11x (AoL statements) to 40x (bullets) and possibly up to 10000x (explosion) compression, which makes no sense considering that as described the compression should be always the roughly the same at it takes savantism to push it more, and flaring does not result in such large differences in other metals.

Bottom line is, we have a direct statement on typical factor from AoL and that is 2 minutes compressed to 15 seconds, i.e. 8x compression. That is literally directly stated in the books.

Fair point on speed of light, I mixed up units and orders.

Edited December 20, 2022 by therunner
spelling

[StanLemon]

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

But that is still detecting difference in usage not in location.
I am saying that you cannot use Bronze as a 'investiture detector' and be able to tell "pouches with spheres are by his left thigh", we never see anything of the sort.

Or the bullets are relatively slow.

Still compression factors of bendalloy bubbles are wildly inconsistent if we take feats into account, ranging from 8-11x (AoL statements) to 40x (bullets) and possibly up to 10000x (explosion) compression, which makes no sense considering that as described the compression should be always the roughly the same at it takes savantism to push it more, and flaring does not result in such large differences in other metals.

Bottom line is, we have a direct statement on typical factor from AoL and that is 2 minutes compressed to 15 seconds, i.e. 8x compression. That is literally directly stated in the books.

Fair point on speed of light, I mixed up units and orders.

As the listed compression factor we have in the book is universally never shown, I think it can be completely discounted. A compression factor of 8 wouldn't make people look like they are frozen as is commonly described.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, trav said:

Chromium makes this a rather one sided battle. Drained of Stormlight the Radiant would be a regular human and strengthwise Pewter gives any Mistborn the edge.

If their close enough to use chromium, they're in division range.

[NameIess]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If their close enough to use chromium, they're in division range.

Division will be stopped by chromium.

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Division will be stopped by chromium.

Will it?

Active investiture is harder to affect. 

Spoiler

Starfishpr1me

Why do Szeth and Kaladin not suck all the stormlight out of the gems that power shardplate when they fight people wearing plate, thus rendering the plate useless? Is there something different about the gems that power plate that would make this impossible?

Brandon Sanderson

So, in the magic of Stormlight (and across several of my books) there's are some underlying principles. One is that the power of the magic (which we call investiture) is difficult to manipulate when it is claimed by someone, or something, else.

You can imagine that magic in the process of being used, like the energy powering plate, works like a kind of negative charge to your own magic. Trying to lash someone in Plate will be very difficult, as the stormlight in the plate is going to resist your attempts to push through it and get at the person. Likewise, that power in the plate is actively being used--draining it is difficult.

If you can rip off a piece of the plate, disconnecting it from the system, then you can get at those gemstones and drain them much more easily. But tucked away inside, they're both shielded and being actively used by the armor. They would be virtually impossible to drain.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 28, 2016)