Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[Highprince10 he/him]

When we see Jasanah with the drawings of the Heralds that Wit drew do we know is Shallan saw those pictures or did only Jasanah?

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Highprince10 said:

When we see Jasanah with the drawings of the Heralds that Wit drew do we know is Shallan saw those pictures or did only Jasanah?

We don't know. Shallan recognized Kalak in RoW and she could have done that by either seeing those drawings or by comparing him to religious art pieces if he hadn't changed that much. Some Heralds changed in their appearance like Jezrien, others not so much like Nale.

Moreover Shallan is an unreliable narration, actively suppressing her past, lying to herself. Even is she saw Hoid's drawing of Chana and recognized her mother in her, she might have immediately suppress that and push it into back of her mind.

[Highprince10 he/him]

On 2/13/2024 at 8:27 AM, alder24 said:

Moreover Shallan is an unreliable narration, actively suppressing her past, lying to herself.

I keep forgetting how we have to second guess things from Shallans view point and think about what she said and what happened. 

 

Edited March 15, 2024 by Highprince10

[Kfish]

While I appreciate Gavilar not being a Kelsier level plotting mastermind, I find myself being a bit letdown. I feel like there are still secrets and information that have been hinted at enough that I would call it a "promise" that we don't have the reveal for.

 

How did he get anti-voidlight?

How did Gavilar get wrapped into all this in the first place? 

What did Gavilar set in motion that Thaidakar couldn't stop?

Nothing about Axindweth or Gereh?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

7 hours ago, Kfish said:

While I appreciate Gavilar not being a Kelsier level plotting mastermind, I find myself being a bit letdown. I feel like there are still secrets and information that have been hinted at enough that I would call it a "promise" that we don't have the reveal for.

 

How did he get anti-voidlight?

How did Gavilar get wrapped into all this in the first place? 

What did Gavilar set in motion that Thaidakar couldn't stop?

Nothing about Axindweth or Gereh?

Do remember that the Prologue we've seen is a draft and will likely have some changes when released proper. But as for your questions I might have some ideas.

For Anti-Voidlight, your guess is as good as mine I'm afraid, it would require an understanding of Rhythms that I'm not sure how Gavilar could get without the aid of the Listeners. 

For how Gavilar became the most Cosmere-Aware-without-being-Cosmere-Aware person ever, I imagine it's similar to the creation of the Set on Scadrial, he found out there was power and went looking for it, though I'd say he was marginally more successful since he wasn't just some Shard's puppet.

What Gavilar did? Setting the True Desolation in motion, the Voidspren needed a way past the Oathpact since Taln would never break and Gavilar had found that way, moving Voidlight and probably Voidspren from Braize to Roshar was just the beginning. Allowing Ulim the chance to get into Venli's head and eventually summon the Everstorm.

As for Axindweth and Gereh, no idea. We'll probably learn more s it becomes clear that Axindweth wanted the True Desolation to happen, she worked with Gavilar and gave Ulim to Venli. Gereh was probably trying to stop her.

[alder24]

20 hours ago, Kfish said:

What did Gavilar set in motion that Thaidakar couldn't stop?

Thaidakar set things in motion, that were coming anyway:

Quote

“You can’t ‘grow beyond’ the tide, Gavilar,” Thaidakar replied. “You swim with it or get swept away. The things we’ve started are in motion. And to be honest, I don’t know that we did that much. I think that tide was coming whatever we did.”

I believed it's about starting a True Desolation by sending a Herald to Braize. And so it happens that a Herald died just a moment later. Hmmm, I wonder who it could be - Chana of course. Ghostbloods were highly interested in the Davar family, Mraize knows too much about Shallan's childhood, I wouldn't be surprised if Ghostbloods arranged things that resulted in Chana's death, thus starting a new Desolation.

That's also something Gavilar wanted to achieve so their goals aligned - probably that is why Thaidakar decided to work with him. 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Thaidakar set things in motion, that were coming anyway:

I believed it's about starting a True Desolation by sending a Herald to Braize. And so it happens that a Herald died just a moment later. Hmmm, I wonder who it could be - Chana of course. Ghostbloods were highly interested in the Davar family, Mraize knows too much about Shallan's childhood, I wouldn't be surprised if Ghostbloods arranged things that resulted in Chana's death, thus starting a new Desolation.

That's also something Gavilar wanted to achieve so their goals aligned - probably that is why Thaidakar decided to work with him. 

Plus we can rule out most Heralds. If a Herald we knew died then we would have known about it by now, one of them would have said something, or maybe express some kind of guilt and say "it's all my fault". But they haven't so it can't be them.

-Can't be Taln for obvious reasons.

-Can't be Nale, Kalak, Jezrien or Shallash because they were all there at the palace.

-Can't be Ishar because he was busy for several years being the God-Preist of Tukar and screaming about his almightiness.

-Pailliah was in Khabranth being an Ardent or something.

-Battar was part of the Diagram.

That leaves only Vedel, who we know nothing about and Chanarach who has so much more foreshadowing with the red hair and stuff. It was brought up by Gavilar and Shallan's mom died in the same month as Gavilar for Stormfather's sake! If Chana is not Shallan's mom then I will eat my old, smelly shoes.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 3/28/2024 at 8:22 AM, alder24 said:

Ghostbloods were highly interested in the Davar family, Mraize knows too much about Shallan's childhood, I wouldn't be surprised if Ghostbloods arranged things that resulted in Chana's death, thus starting a new Desolation.

Don't forget that Shallan remembers using a seon box when she was young.

[bmcclure7]

On 3/29/2024 at 2:30 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Don't forget that Shallan remembers using a seon box when she was young.

when did she say that?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

when did she say that?

RoW ch 30:

Quote

Light shimmered in the strange cube, seeping through at the corners as Mraize spoke. Veil watched, and suddenly felt disjointed—trapped between two moments.
This experience … she’d done this before. She’d been here, kneeling on the ground, holding a cube that glowed from the corners. Exactly like this.
She reached to the top of the cube, feeling the smooth metal, and expected it to be dimpled. She cocked her head, inspecting her fingers as she lifted them up and rubbed them against her thumb. This was wrong.… She glanced over her shoulder, and saw the enclosure beneath the tarp.
She was on a mission into Shadesmar. Why should she expect to see gardens behind her? Her father’s gardens?
[...]
She’d trained with Pattern as a child. She’d spoken oaths. She’d summoned a Shardblade and struck down her own mother, frantic to survive. And—she looked back at the cube—she’d held one of these?

 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

RoW ch 30:

 

Interesting, who would Shallan call using a Seon? And based on the wording she may have done so after killing her mom and breaking her oaths.

Probably didn't call Hoid, maybe Mraize? It would be funny if she accidentally called Thaidakar, who would be rightly confused about this random crying little girl who called him by accident.

[Isilel]

On 3/29/2024 at 8:30 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Don't forget that Shallan remembers using a seon box when she was young.

 

Which is why I have a theory that Lady Davar had been the first Ghostblood in that family, rather than being Skybreaker-adjacent, and that the whole incident that resulted in her death was her trying to force Shallan to demonstrate her abilities for an associate. IIRC Mraize hinted that Shallan had done some work for the Ghostbloods as a child - I don't have the quote, but I remember noticing it at the time and wondering. Also, Seon-in-a-box probably influenced her "Mother's soul in a box" delusion. 

Pattern did say that Mraize's letter explaining Davar family tragedies contained lies, and IMHO Lady Davar's allegiance was one of them.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

26 minutes ago, Isilel said:

the whole incident that resulted in her death was her trying to force Shallan to demonstrate her abilities for an associate

Would her father have reacted so dramatically if that were all?

[Isilel]

38 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Would her father have reacted so dramatically if that were all?

 

IMHO her father wasn't clued in at that point, or reacted instinctively. I think that Shallan disliked doing whatever it was and refused at some point, while her father was also opposed to her being used that way.The Ghostbloods then began to doubt that her mother could deliver on her obligations. Therefore the quarrels and Lady Davar attempting to force the issue with a tragic outcome. 

The Ghostbloods must have been interested in this otherwise undistinguished family for a reason, and from what we have seen from Lin, it couldn't have been him or his boys

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Quick question, can we talk about any of the other Stormlight 5 preview chapters or is there another place, because Brandon dropped another one and I would love to talk about it.

[Quantus he/him]

On 4/27/2024 at 2:52 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Quick question, can we talk about any of the other Stormlight 5 preview chapters or is there another place, because Brandon dropped another one and I would love to talk about it.

Since it's stickied Im pretty sure this is the place.  If not it's probably safe since it's already a WoT spoiler section.

 

Notum will decide to become a Gravitation Fabrial in the shape of an Airship (or at the heart of one), Im calling it now.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Notum will decide to become a Gravitation Fabrial in the shape of an Airship (or at the heart of one), Im calling it now.

Oh this would be poetic for his arc, I like it. What if he works with Navani to do it - she had the idea for airships and now surely with the Sibling will be learning how to make true fabrials. Can fabrials be made from sapient spren?

[Quantus he/him]

53 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Oh this would be poetic for his arc, I like it. What if he works with Navani to do it - she had the idea for airships and now surely with the Sibling will be learning how to make true fabrials. Can fabrials be made from sapient spren?

The implication in ROW is that it requires Radiant spren for Radiant Surges like Soulcssting or Regrowth, so I'm thinking he'd grant directed Gravitation manipulation like a Wind runner.

Edited April 30, 2024 by Quantus

[Mayalaran]

So every order has the words that they have to say to advance in their ideals, and we know that Gavilar, when he was bonded to the stormfather, was very intent on finding these words and progressing to Godhood (or something like that). In the Proulouge to stormlight five that has been released, Gavilar routinley attempts to say the words. So what are the words? The closest he gets to them is this: 

 

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far.

 

So my guess, given this passage, is that the words are: "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

 

Thoughts?

[Aredor]

5 hours ago, Mayalaran said:

So every order has the words that they have to say to advance in their ideals, and we know that Gavilar, when he was bonded to the stormfather, was very intent on finding these words and progressing to Godhood (or something like that). In the Proulouge to stormlight five that has been released, Gavilar routinley attempts to say the words. So what are the words? The closest he gets to them is this: 

 

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far.

 

So my guess, given this passage, is that the words are: "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

 

Thoughts?

So close. And so far. 

In Gavilar's case, his problem was never about what words he was saying. He didn't have the proper Intent to gain access to the Surges. That, ultimately, was his problem. As Skar said in his OB chapter, you have to mean what you're swearing to. 

I don't think Gavilar was close at all in regards to swearing any of the Oaths. He was way too much of a jerk to fit into any of the Orders. He was egotistical, selfish, rude, not even wanting to change. He wanted the Surges without bonds. In essence, he wanted to be a slightly saner Ishar.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Mayalaran said:

So every order has the words that they have to say to advance in their ideals, and we know that Gavilar, when he was bonded to the stormfather, was very intent on finding these words and progressing to Godhood (or something like that). In the Proulouge to stormlight five that has been released, Gavilar routinley attempts to say the words. So what are the words? The closest he gets to them is this: 

Quote

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far.

So my guess, given this passage, is that the words are: "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

 

Thoughts?

It's not only the specific words that Gavilar got wrong, it's the intent as well. This was the only time Gavilar said words with intent behind them, actually meaning them with his own heart. But this time he got the words very wrong. That's why he was so close and yet so far. Intent was there this one and only time, but the words weren't the correct ones. That's my explanation, the Stormfather even said this later:

Quote

It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong.

But there is another thing to consider. Was this even about joining Knights Radiant? Gavilar is led to believe by the Stormfather that he was chosen to become a "... Herald," not a Radiant.

Quote

You do not consider with reverence the position you seek, the Stormfather said. I feel...you are not the one that I need. That I decided to find.

“You said that you were charged with this task,” Gavilar said. “By Honor. Finding someone to show the visions, to prevent calamity. You didn’t decide anything. You were instructed to do all of this.”

That is true. I do not speak in human ways. But still, once you are a...Herald, you will need to leave everything you know. You will be given up to torture between Returns. Why is it this doesn’t bother you?

So is the Stormfather lying to him about becoming a Herald, or was he telling the truth? Was this even the real Stormfather as some suggest it was an imposter? If that was not a lie and it was the Stormfather, then the proper words to become a Herald are somewhere in the Way of Kings. 

Quote

“It is in there, isn’t it?” he said. “The right Words are somewhere in The Way of Kings?”

Yes.

[Master Silver]

So just giving this topic a bump. I am unsure whether or not the original prologue was updated or a new one was posted, but it seems like new information has come out. I was particularly intrigued by the Stormfather taking on a bodily form. But truthfully, I think the cognitive shadow of Tanavast was further diminished after the death of one of the heralds. Notice how he says, he is looking for a champion. The way he interacts with Gavilar and Dalinar is completely different. The true question is what changed?  

[Stigmadiabolicum]

Coming back to this again years later with the new info we have..(definitely my favorite thread of the samples besides maybe Cusicesh/Iri) with the info about Adonalsium-era spren like Wind and Stone, BAM was definitely one of those types that was Unmade, with what stormfaker and Kelek said, and that's why it affected Roshar so deeply. More than just odium also being a rhythm of the planet. 

Also I really need to know how Kelek might have caused the recreance. 

Still on board with stormfaker, there's just way too many red flags than just him taking a different approach with Dalinar..also he doesn't hold any resentment to the Heralds like SF did until he bonded with Dalinar and came to understand them and their oathbreaking in OB. 

The big question still is "it's too soon they can't see they can't know" wtf? The void spren seeing chana appear? What about this scenario would lead to who seeing what in regards to him? 

Edited August 14, 2024 by Stigmadiabolicum

[coolsnow7]

On 5/1/2024 at 7:18 PM, Mayalaran said:

So every order has the words that they have to say to advance in their ideals, and we know that Gavilar, when he was bonded to the stormfather, was very intent on finding these words and progressing to Godhood (or something like that). In the Proulouge to stormlight five that has been released, Gavilar routinley attempts to say the words. So what are the words? The closest he gets to them is this: 

 

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far.

 

So my guess, given this passage, is that the words are: "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

 

Thoughts?

No. Because the Stormfather says “so close, and yet so far”.

Point being, the words weren’t right, but the intent was finally there - whereas before Gavilar said all sorts of words that would probably have been accepted, but with literally negative intent.

[Erklitt]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:18 AM, Mayalaran said:

So my guess, given this passage, is that the words are: "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

I think you're pretty close.

 

13 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

the words weren’t right, but the intent was finally there

I see it as exactly the other way round: the words are finally near, but the intent is still wrong. Where do you see a change in that?

 

What has confused me since we have the final prologue version is that those words have nothing to do with a Bondsmith oath. In the previous version, both SF(*) and Gavilar were talking about G. becoming a herald. In RoW Dalinar sees a memory of Nale where he says something like: 'I will take this burden', which is clearly his assent to becoming part of the oathpact. The wording 'give it to me' especially in @Mayalaran's version, could mean the same, if the intent were right.

But now, at least SF speaks about making G. a  champion most of the time, not a herald. What words does he want G. to find? Bondsmith oath or herald oath? Does the Stormfather's 'so close, yet so far' relate to G.'s wish rather than his own? Or is it the Stormfaker Ishar who encourages G. to search for what Ishar wants him to search for while trying to keep up plausible deniability?

(*) SF can be understood here as either Stormfather or Stormfaker; I tend towards the latter.