marianmi

Windrunner ideals are Protecting/Leading. The first 2 oaths were about protecting, maybe last 2 are about leading. Let's also not forget the first oath is "Life before death"

Let's also not forget that "not all spren as are discerning as honorspren". So for pattern, just saying the words might be enough, w/o an emphasis on meaning.

They are not related. Warbreaker spoilers

I agree Nale has a honorblade. Also I bet it's not his. But the other i think it's a "normal" shardblade.

Don't think so, Kaladin was always protecting putting his life on the line...

Yes, saw. Similar with the shardblades. They *see* the shardblades, they *know* what they're supposed to be (spren), yet they see there's something wrong (don't glow like they should).

Actually they did, at Adolin's duel.

It doesn't say exactly, but the soulcasting properties from Ars Arcanum: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/stormlightarchive/images/2/29/Ars_arcanum.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130619070807 seem to sometimes fit with spren appearance: e.g. "translucent gas, air" for windrunners or "oil" for elsecallers. Stonewards have "stone" in their names, and soulcasting property is "rock, stone", so I think their spren should look like a rockspren or stonespren. EDIT: ninja'ed by @Spoolofwhool Skybreakers: since they can also fly, it would make sense to have a spren that can fly with them too, so smoke or fog (Syl-like but non-translucent) fits pretty well. Lightweavers: yeah Pattern does not look like anything

But maybe this is the great subterfuge infiltrating those that would otherwise hunt them...

Correct, thanks @Rasarr I don't think that the planet itself would be destroyed, and nothing but a void left - i think it was just the end of the vision so in absence of images, there was nothing shown anymore (void). I think Odium winning would just mean conditions so hard, storms so powerful (maybe more often too), life would be difficult to survive.

Here we go again This is one of the questions that can easily go either way Personally, rather than the great subterfuge being "some stonewards will drop their shards", I think that this is a small subterfuge, with the great subterfuge being "the rest of the order will go to Shinovar, where you can't see spren". Also, indeed, the stonewards spren looks like stone (if you check the ars arcanum tables) - the skybreaker spren should look like smoke. But I find so many clues to the stonewardens being the ones that did not take part in the recreance, that I actually think BS is trying to trick us :))

From Dalinar's vision, he is told to "save Regrowth" for others. Since it's a fabrial, it means probably to save the stormlight, which is the only thing consumed when using the fabrial. Just going by the "ReGrowth" name, I would say, like the above comment, that the surgebinder starts an accelerated healing process. So it can heal partially, or totally, depending on how much stormlight he's using. Using less stormlight, the "regrowth" process still starts - e.g. when growing a limb, you could run out of stormlight when only 1 finger is created. The person would need to continue natural healing. We actually see this with Lopen. With a bit of stormlight, he grew a small stump. He then went to ask for more stormlight to continue the healing process and grow the entire hand. But I would assume that "starting" the process requires a minimum amount of stormlight. E.g. like the one Lift used when bringing Gawx back to life. You don't have enough => nothing happens. I don't remember the exact scene, so please correct me if I am wrong with this: my impression was that Lift leveled up then, and when doing a level-up you get some "free" stormlight (like how Kaladin "explodes" with stormlight after saying his oaths), so maybe Lift leveled-up and all that "free" stormlight was used on Gawx (want's she otherwise quite out of stormlight?)

But the idea is that he's hunting surgebinders, so he won't associate with them. Also, he's calling Szeth a Skybreaker and gives him a blade, so this means that he knows Szeth won't have a shardblade, so he won't have a spren, so he won't be a KR, but still he'll be a "Skybreaker". In conclusion, no, the people with Nale are not KR Skybreakers. Yes, Nightblood's bond is similar to spren, BUT Nightblood is made with investiture from Endowment (so Nightblood is an Endowment spren), while KR are bonded to Honor spren. Because of this, I believe (I might be very wrong) that they will have a different power-set. E.g. if Endowment would come to Roshar, it would have a different magic system than Honor, just like Cultivation has a different magic system than Honor and Odium has a different magic system that Honor (storm form give access to other powers than surges). EDIT: about Nale, pretty sure he does not have his own Honorblade, else who knows what would happen. I think with other Herald's blade, he is like Szeth was with the Windrunner Honorblade - can do 2 surges while using more stormlight. I think with his own Honorblade, because of Identity match, he can do more than using 2 surges.

@Sasooner it's honor-derived spren that give access to surges. Nightblood won't give Szeth access to any surges. You can argue none of those Skybreakers are KR Skybreakers, but just a bunch of people one who was a Herald calls Skybreakers. They have no surges and no spren. Szeth would be the most powerful of them with Nightblood, the rest would be at best shardbearers (dead spren shards). We are yet to see a true Skybreaker KR. It would be funny I admit if a smokespren would come to Szeth and make him a Skybreaker, prompting him to leave Nale and his fake order

Maybe: * killing Honor = making honor-invested people non-honorable (breaking their oaths) => after heralds betraying their oaths and KR betraying their oaths, Honor died * killing Cultivation = making sure nothing can grow anymore => destroy the entire planet. So actually non-intervention from humans = extinction. Since not *all* KR had to betray their oaths, but like 90% => maybe destroying 90% of the planet would be enough to kill Cultivation, hence the "hunker down" strategy for humans might save 10% of them.

The existence of Surgebinders means there's a Desolation coming because it shows the spren are willing to risk death and bond again with humans after their betrayal. So it's assumed spren are so upset with humans they would NEVER bond again, except when Odium is coming.

just Nightblood sucking in stormlight should be enough - the honorblade wielders would run out, and won't do any surges - they just become ordinary swordsmen.

Can The Black Fisher be the source of the "plague" in the Purelake?

My theory on that rattle: "He must pick it up, the fallen title" = KR "the tower" = Dalinar "the crown" = Elhokar "the spear" = Kaladin Until now, the tower and the spear picked up the title. Still waiting for Elhokar.

That's correct, jasnah is wise/careful sorry I didn't count correctly

Nighblood is like a bonded spren into itself. But I think BS implied there's more investiture in Nighblood than in a spren => Nightblood is more powerful. The assumption is that Szeth + Nightblood can easily take on honorblades when people are using them. I think a Herald with a Honorblade would be a different thing, because I think the Herald + Honorblade combo work differently with stormlight. Hm, maybe it would be better to say that Szeth + Nightblood is closer to a Herald + Honorblade than to a bonded spren in terms of power (and let's not forget that Ishi thought he could wipe out all KR by himself!). The point is that Szeth + Nightblood is very efficient vs. KR. The interesting thing is that probably Nightblood can kill spren. The other interesting thing is that, while I see KR losing their stormlight vs Nightblood, I don't see them "attracted" to pick up Nightblood (like people on Naltis) because of their bond with their blade/spren; also it's possible Nightblood can't take the people's "investiture" like on Naltis because people might be "created" differently than on Naltis.

I think you make it more complicated than it should be Also, I think truthwatchers and bondsmiths should be similar. my theory is that these 2 orders can bond different types of spren, this is why they're "separate" on the chart. This would explain also why Ym's spren and Renarin's spren might be different. I don't believe Wyndle's form is the cognitive one - Pattern has some similarities between cognitive and physical, and there's absolutely no similarities between "sparkling light spren" and a vine. There's NO WAY Wyndle - even if he's a vine in the cognitive - would become a "sparkling light spren" in the physical.

shins probably revere the spren of stone which is the spren of the stonewards order. the leading theory is that stonewards were the 10th order that did not abandon their duty. maybe the "great subterfuge" was to go to shinovar, where are no spren, so that everyone would think their spren is dead. maybe spren are just invisible in shinovar. shins are not incapable of attracting a spren - there were shin kr in the past, and there are many that think szeth himself will end up being a proper KR Truthless - it's possible the cause of the recreance is connected to the fact that the Heralds lied when saying that humans won. maybe stonewards believed them, and passed this to the shin people. Thus, the Truth is that the Heralds told the truth (and humans won). Szeth discovered that a new desolation is on the way, and became Truthless (e.g. one who believes the heralds lied, one who does not believe the Truth). This is very probable since the shin also hold the Honorblades - they probably believe that the Heralds told them the Truth and left them the Honorblades as proof or something along these lines.

There's nothing new about this table that has not been talked about for years. I would like to add this: Shallan - creative / honest - she needs to speak a truth to "level-up" probably the KR from the other orders, in order to level-up, need to: * be just - when taking a decision to be just even if it's painful (e.g. arrest own relative, take a just decision even if it's against the law, ...) * be obedient - follow orders, even if they're the wrong orders; it would work even better if this would be in a battle where the KR will show bravery as well * heal somebody - like Lift did with Gawx (can we all agree she had a level up in the palace when she revived Gawx?) * give stuff away - we'll see what will Jasnah give away - maybe level up when she will give knowledge away? * when being careful leads to some important discovery * when building something - e.g. some fabrial * when being dependable - e.g. in battle coming to an ally's rescue * when guiding - for Dalinar, guiding actually started pretty late in the 2nd book. you can argue that guiding ppl to urithiru lead him to becoming KR

so you guys don't agree with "chasmfiends that pupate during the everstorm will become voidbringers because they will bond a odium spren"?