marianmi

Lol. The Oathpact (per WoB) was between Honor and the Heralds. So then, if Honor was dead, how did he made the Oathpact? If he was dead before the honorblades were made, who made them? Splinters are not sentient. It looks to me, @1stBondsmith, you lack some info about the Cosmere. Imagine Odium = a think formation of smoke that is concentrated hate. (Replace Odium/hate with other shards here). It's mindless, more like an animal that has only one instict (hate). Imagine someone that is touched by that smoke will instantly hate his wife and kill her, or something. Now, imagine that think formation of smoke *merging* with a person (Rayse) => an intelligent hateful *being* is created with the power of a god (planetary-scale powers - move planet off orbit, change climate, create life, ...). However, this "bond" can be broken - this being can become mindless (tho` mindless is not really accurate, since there is basic intelligence to follow its purpose) thick smoke + person (w/o powers) again. The person has no more powers, but it has incredible *knowledge* - it knows about planets, about climate, about how life is created, etc. This is what is called a *sliver*. Now, the intelligent being can divide its power. Each shard (the mindless power) is a complex thing, that incorporates many aspects that incorporate many aspects that incorporate many aspects. It's like a tree. For example Hate/Odium can be "hate for lifeless things" + "hate for living things". "hate for living things" can be "hate for humans" + "hate for animals" + "hate for fish" - it would be easier maybe to divide cultivation into "cultivate the fields" and "cultivate knowledge" but maybe you get the idea. Each if this "aspect" of hate, if it's "broken" from the "main" being, becomes a splinter. The "main" thing has some smoke come out and roam on its own, and it's less thick. That bit that comes off is not "sentient" (where by that i mean intelligent), because the intelligence is the human part of the "main" being, still controlling the big part. A splinter of course can be further split into smaller splinters, as long as those components are defined by the bigger concept. E.g. splintering the "hate for lifeless things" splinter, you can never achieve "hate for rabbits". Going back to Roshar. I see spren as tiny splinters. There are zillions of spren like windspren, flamespren, whateverspren, that are coming from Adonalsium - the thing that was splintered into the 16 Shards. Some of these spren probably give the basic parshendi forms. Then, there are the Unmade, which are Odium splinters. Basically Odium sent bits of him to Roshar. Dumb, but powerful bits of him. The bigger the splinter, the more powerful it is, and can affect stuff. Even if there's not intelligence, the drive to follow the concept is there. The spren that gives the Thrill for example, can be the "hate for the enemy in war" concept. It is said in the Diagram that the unmade are pretty dumb, only one of them has *some* intelligence, let's call it the dolphin of the unmade. This is true for all spren. All spren should be DUMB. Like windspren. Like the Unmade. Because they are smaller or bigger splinters of shards (or Shard Prime Adonalsium). BUT HOW ARE HONORSPREN, CRYPTICS, STORMFATHER, etc. SMART? Enter CULTIVATION. The spren that can bond with humans (and that are "smart") were created by Honor and Cultivation together. I believe (I should write this in a new theory actually) that it was Cultivation that gave the ability to learn to the spren. As Pattern(i think?) said, there were not that many spren at the time of the recreance (and then the KR killed like 90% of them). There were probably not that many cities then as they are now. Looks to be spren have been evolving, thanks to the ability to cultivate themselves, given by ... CULTIVATION. So, if cultivation gave them smarts, what did Honor give them? Well, access to power - the 10 surges, that spren can access, are actually the same as the 10 surges that honorblades have access to, via Honor. So in my opinion, the honorblades are kind of "Spren 0.1 Honor edition", no minds because there was no cultivation in the equation. Why do shards fights in splinters and not directly? Not directly probably because they would destroy the world. In splinters - it's like chess. The objective is to get the other to divide too much and kill the intelligence such that the small bits can't be put together - i assume there need to be a certain amount of "shard" power to bond with a person. But this is besides the point.

1) KR were created to fight in the desolations. They also helped people to fight. People had bronze armours. If plates are a *construct* like crystallized stormlight, KR would give people shardplates too in fights. Since the plate was available to ALL KR, and NOT available to people => it's *not* a construct. Since now it's available to people, clearly it was possible in the KR time too, they were probably smart enough to figure out powering by gemstones. But they did not do that, probably because the plate is *specific* for KR - they have one available for them, but they cannot give it to people => tied to the spren (or the NB). 2) let me reiterate my point from above: a broken shardplate can be fed stormlight to grow. You can get ONE TINY BIT and grow a full set - if there isn't a bigger part (being fed stormlight). If it's "crystallized stormlight", there won't be an issue taking a glove, feeding the original plate stormlight to grow the glove back, then feeding the glove stormlight to grow the rest of a plate => unlimited plates thru division. This is not happening - always, only 1 plate will regenerate, the other parts will crumble => there's a unique cognitive aspect to the plate. It's clear the plate is tied to the spren.

like @The One Who Connects said, herald would be like vin burning mists, they get access directly to Honor, if i could ask BS something, i would be: if a person would be related to a herald (similar DNA), would they use *less* stormlight using a honorblade than a random person (very dissimilar DNA)? (w/o whatever penalties are incurred by "perception")

I don;t think spren would have allowed people in shadesmar after the recreance. I think bridges were burned. There were no more radiants, not even from the last order. I actually think that order also unbonded, but in a way that did not kill the spren

Of course she did, she was meddling with powers that bring about desolations - like Lift does. Because they were trying to steal her "soulcaster"

They killed Jasnah because she was killing ghostbloods too, but also maybe thought she was a son of honor too (as gavilar)...

It looks to me: * Shallan's mom adhered to the Skybreakers credo (kill surgebinders to stop desolations); the guy who she brought to kill kid Shallan might have been a Skybreaker? * Shallan's brother sought the Skybreakers - probably to ask them for justice for their mom (who he thought was killed by their dad), which would be funny Shallan's dad annoyance with Herelan is probably because of this (he knows his son's actions via the Ghostbloods) * Shallan's dad joined the Ghostbloods. We know how hard that is, so I wonder how he managed to do that * Shallan herself joins the Ghostbloods. * Heralan tries to kill Amaram, a Son of Honor. Who got him to do that (and gave him a shardblade), in exchange for a promise to get him to the Skybreakers? the Ghostbloods? Maybe we can figure out what the Ghostblood want? * they are against the sons of honor - who want to bring back the radiants. but probably not because of this, but because they want to bring them back by killing a lot of people and/or by bringing back the voidbringers * they are aware but have no issues with the skybreakers - who kill surgebinders not to bring back the desolations / voidbringers. Is is wrong to say that objectively speaking, Ghostbloods are not really bad guys?

There are several orders that could have done it.... 1) Truthwatchers, because they saw the future 2) Skybreakers, since there are people calling themselves "skybreakers" led by someone who appears to be Nalan 3) Bondsmiths, because they were bonded to rare spren 4) Willshapers, because they were unreliable and erratic probably not Elsecallers, because hiding in Shadesmare does not require much "great subterfuge" (and also Jasnah seems to be the first human to drop-in shadesmare and ask the highspren stuff). Surely not windrunners and stonewards, since they are "on-screen" dropping their blades, and it's not faked because Dalinar hears the spren screaming. not lightweavers, because I trust Pattern, not edgedancers, because of how i interpret Wyndle. I prefer the idea of Bondsmiths, since there were a smaller number of them, and their spren have greater powers, and maybe, like Dalinar, they were not in shards form. But I doubt it, since I also think Cusicesh was a bondsmith's spren. Skybreakers also seem like regular humans, and willshapers, being unreliable, would not agree as a whole order... But maybe dustbringers => stone shamanism? "Even some sections of rock smoldered. The dustbringers had done their work well." Since dustbringers could work stone => stone was sacred? Maybe dustbringer spren is like a rock-spren?

I thought Listeners think *spren* betrayed them, not *gods*

if a plate is just stormlight, then you could split a plate in 2, then feed both stormlight, and create 2. since that's not possible (probably one of them won't regrow), it means there's a unique cognitive aspect (spren) to the plate, which cannot be replicated/duplicated.

Why is that not the case? Here;s the theory proposed by @Tempus -

On each planet, there's a "special" number corresponding to each shard. That number is 1-16. Can't remember where I saw a list proposed with each shard number, for Odium it was proposed #9. That number it's not cannon, but Odium does have a "special" number, and I bet that's the number of Unmade (according to WoB, unmade are NOT 10). Honor's number is 10 of course.

of course shardplates help. I think that shardplates are powered by the stormlight that is lost (through skin, breathing).

A sliver doesn't have power (or a lot of power). Stormfather is not a sliver. i think that the rider of storms was a splinter, and he somehow got, hm, that shadow of honor (what you call sliver, but which actually is only the cognitive aspect of the sliver), becoming the stormfather. But I think he's more of a splinter. I don't think nahel bonds can be made with slivers, since slivers already have a physical aspect.

Taln's reflexes are amazing without stormlight

I thought Stormfather would not allow himself to become "trapped" - i.e. leave the cognitive - not because of the fact that he cannot, but because he's unique/more important. Having Cusicesh (same level as Stormfather) seen by the people in the physical I think it means that he's one of the spren that was bonded by a Bondsmith in the past, which became trapped. Assuming *all* KR spren are "trapped" in shards I think it's a big fallacy. But this theory I think is very correct in the assumption that the chart is surgebinding in shadesmar, for the simple reason that there are 10 icons on it (10 orders and 10 surges). 10 is Honor's number. Odium's number is 9.

i think they are called the unmade because they "unmake" (destroy)

Spren give access to investiture, are not investiture. but I think based on the spren, you gain access to different levels of investiture. E.g. Honor could have controlled all of its investiture, stormfather can control less, honorspren even less, windspren minimal/none. there's also i think a matter of "distance" - e.g. i think honor could control his investiture from wherever, using a spren you need to have stormlight close-by to use. so maybe the heralds didn't need to be close to stormlight to make use of it, but they could draw it directly from the honor-pool.

Investiture is never lost. if Lift can turn food into stormlight, imagine something cooler the heralds can do

of the top of my head - let's assume heralds have access to stormlight, given their connection to the almighty => unlimited supply of power. stormlight, as is already said in the books, it's a precious resource / currency.

@cometaryorbit I don't see anything in your comment to disprove my theory: - spren that "bind any creature voidish or mortal": both bondsmits (mortal) and voidbringers (parshendi) can bind - obviously, not their form as shardblades it's the important thing about them, but other properties their binded "creature" can achieve

This was talked about a lot, for many years My interpretation, long ago, was that Dalinar (the tower), Elhokar (the crown) and Kaladin (the spear) will become KR (pick up the fallen title) Now, we have 2 of them, waiting to see Elhokar's fate

Stormfather gives permission for honor-spren. Other spren have different entities that give permission - e.g. a council - and maybe other spren don't need permission. The interesting bit tho` is - when the everstorm hits, will parshmen be the only ones changed? or will the great shells become voidbringers too?

Stormfather refers to Syl as his daughter. Also that he's the shadow of Honor. I think it's a pretty good indication that he's Honor-only. He binds with Dalinar, creating a bondsmith. Bondsmiths and truthwatchers are in the chart on special places. I assume from this that bondsmiths bind honor-only spren, truthwatchers cultivation-only spren, while the others spren are a mix. Although not sure where this theory leaves honor-spren maybe honor-spren are spren that cultivate honor in men, making it a mix?

Not sure this has been put forward before. According to the ardent Kabsal, the Dawnsingers were "kindly spren sent by the Almighty" to care for mankind after being expelled from the Tranquiline Halls. If this is remotely true, maybe Dawnsingers bonded to KR, and those KR's shards = Dawnshards? Of course, only bondsmiths could bond Dawnsingers => bondsmiths's shards = dawnshards?