marianmi

It was probably Wit, who knows who/what this Taln is, and he's safekeeping the Honorblade.

Yeah sorry But Taln's blade that was switched it's proof that he had a honorblade.

* This "Taln" had a different Blade when he appeared, which was switched. i see this as proof that indeed that was a Honorblade. Wit waiting for him to appear also means that that he could not find that Honorblade anywhere else => this points to the guy (physically) being Taln. * When fighting in desolations, the surviving Heralds would go pick up the blades of the dead ones => when a Herald dies, his blade stays on Roshar. The question is - what happens to the body? Next Desolation, does he get a new body, or the same body? I tend to incline that it's a clone of the same body, because of the DNA required to use the blade. * Between desolations, Heralds go to that "terrible place". This means their minds go there. So mind/body/blade are 3 distinct entities. Does this mean that the blades are <spiritual> aspects of Honor? So my point is that he's got the physical body and the Honorblade of Taln, but we don't know about the mind.

basically @maxal wants an Adolin book

Scadrial's cognitive is not mist. Mist was actually Adonalsium did not *create* Roshar's Cognitive Realm - probably Adonalsium created Roshar with all 3 aspects. And yes, that's how Roshar works - fragments of power take the form of spren. My question was - when did these fragments of power were formed? We know for Honor, there were not many of them before the recreance, and now there are many => there were a lot of (the 10) spren created when Honor shattered/died. So, when were Adonalsium spren created? When the planet was formed (=> they are of all shards), or when Adonalsium shattered (=> they have less "ingredients")? One thing to keep in mind, if you consider parshmen are "of Adonalsium" / bond full spren of Adonalsium. Wit says "God is in the hearts on men" with the probable meaning of "men's hearts are a combination of all 16 shards" / "are capable of all emotions that were shattered into <primary emotions>" / "every human is a little Adonalsium". The fact that parshmen have different forms given by different spren means to me actually that they are never bonding a "full spren of Adonalsium" - they would become more like humans then. I would actually say that each form-spren have different "components" of Adonalsium, e.g. there's more of odium in war-spren than in nimble-spren, more of cultivation in work-spren than in mate-spren etc...

I don't think dying KR or dying spren means that they get locked into shardplate/shardblade. There were KR that never wore shardplate for example, I am sure a plate didn't suddenly appeared when they broke their vows, after never summoning one.

So by Adonalsium spren, you mean spren created by/from Adonalsium when it was still god, or spren created at the shattering?

That quote doesn't reveal much. You can say honor and odium are brothers, so red lightning spren and syl are cousins too. But then again BS would not have said that if all spren are cousins. I am wondering - were there windspren BEFORE the recreance? Maybe windspren are the result of Honor's death/shattering. Why do you say Stormfather existed before shards arrived on the planet? I don't remember anything to point to that.... Rider of Storms is supposed to be Stormfather before the Recreance, not before Honor came to Roshar.

Let's not forget there is also other magics around, not just KR surges. maybe he gets to use that...

@maxal just because he's a normal human does not mean that he would be, like i put it, shallan's wife - stay at home nice guy who cooks dinner while shallan does bad-chull things. BS could spin a nice story with a "powerless" human that does awesome things in a world of radiants.

I don't think this is true. Odium (the shard, not the shard + rayse) is basically a HUMOUNGOUS spren of Adonalsium. Is Odium also partly of Honor? My understanding is that splintering was done over primary ... "sentiments". I see this as white being split into primary colors. Something like Honor is green, Odium is red, Cultivation is blue (let's assume there are 16 primary colors :P). Don't know where I can put Adonalsium spren - but let's say that they are a mix of colors. This does not mean that they necessarily have green in them, they can be only a mix of red and blue. Also, I was under the impression that BS confirmed sentient spren (by that I mean the 10 human bonding spren) were all a mix of Honor and Cultivation. But even if it's not confirmed, I believe this to be so because: * access to the 10 surges was given by Honor to the Heralds. Spren copied that Honor did, and gave the KR access to those 10 surges. This means that spren are linked to Honor - not ANY spren would be able to do that. Would a Odium spren be able to give access to those 10 surges like Honor did, by using stormlight? I think not. We've seen black stormlight that is linked to Odium (whereas "normal" stormlight is of Honor); we've seen red-lightning spren storm magic that we can't place in the 10 surges. Also, it's sensible that a shard can't access another shard's power. * some spren look like they are tied to cultivation (wyndle looks like a vine), and mention cultivation. If Honor contributed to the mixed spren with access to his power, it's not clear how cultivation contributed. My pet theory is that she gave spren the ability to "cultivate" themselves - to think, to organize themselves. I think spren that are closer linked to cultivation are more organized (e.g. they live in cities), whereas spren closer to honor are more "wild" (e.g. honorspren don't live in cities). KR do not use cultivation's power like they do honor's (stormlight, surges), but they seem to get some abilities (e.g. based on the KR chart, truthwatchers spren would be the one closest aligned to cultivation, and truthwatches have precognition abilities, something that cultivation was good at).

Why can't Adolin stay a normal human? I actually like him a non-radiant. Let him become the wife of Shallan PS - i hate an Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin triangle, and hope not to see it. Can you imagine Kaladin+Shallan, with Kaladin's "I will protect you, stay in the house and only I will fight for you" issue vs. Shallan's "I won't ke kept closed + I will sneak out to spy/be spy for ghostbloods"? :)) They are SO incompatible I really don't want to see any of it ...

well, this thread is fun but let's not forget that windspren, creationspren etc are adonalsium spren, and such they cannot access Honor's power. So I think this cousin-spren theory is a bit off. Fun, but a bit impossible according to my cosmere knowledge.

right, post updated.

My initial theory was that all spren were Honor+Cultivation except those 2 - one was 100% Honor and the other was 100% Cultivation. However, I don't think this anymore "Losing memory" is because the KR spren transitions from the cognitive realm to the physical real. Stormfather even after bonding with Dalinar did not leave Shadesmar. Probably only Bondsmiths can create this type of bond, although I don't think this is a rule (Cusicesh probably bonded a Bondsmith and probably went to physical) but only something Stormfather did to protect himself - because I also think The Rider of Storms was probably bonded with a Bondsmith, and survived the Recreance only because of Tanavast's Shadow, but this is another discussion. But since I also like the Physical/Cognitive Chart theory, and since when using their powers KR get to glimpse the cognitive real (even Kaladin could see the "distant sun"), maybe Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers get to glimpse the Spiritual realm. Maybe this is why Stormfather can bond with Dalinar while remaining in Shadesmar, and Truthwatchers get to "see" the future - because the bond is tied to the spiritual realm. And maybe the Spiritual Chart has only 4 surges, one of them being "Vision" connected to the Truthwatcher symbol. But that's a lot of maybes and we don't know much about the spiritual realm.

Can it be the mark of some world-hopper?

@1stBondsmith I am pretty sure it's impossible to "compound" splinters in the way you described. The only "compounding" I know of is Otherwise, I am sure someone would be taking on splinters everywhere from all shards, and slowly become Adonalsium. So I can say pretty sure Odium did not "take over" anything, and the Unmade are broken off him. Next, the Unmade (or a splinter in general), do not carry on Odium's "directives". They carry on their own "directive" - however, given that they are all "aspects" of hate, they serve Odium by just being what they are (and not by doing what Odium tells them to). A point about "taking over" - it looks to me like Honor trusted other people with its power (like the Heralds), whereas Odium does not give its power to people. Instead, looks like Odium works a bit like using his power to <control> people by making them "hate". And it looks like if one of the Unmade can instill "hate" defined as pleasure to kill enemy (the Thrill) in humans , another Unmade can instill something similar in spren. This "taking over" spren (spren that do weird things, and have red eyes) is something like "hate taking over their mind", and not taking over their power/making them a spren of odium/etc... EDIT: there's also the red lightning spren that are probably spren of Odium, not spren <influenced> by Odium.

That's correct, but the fact is that Shallan's mother knew about KR powers, and probably thought that they would bring back desolations, which is something we saw Nalan think. Skybreakers do indeed need a law broken to have an excuse, but maybe the guy she called was a skybreaker (come to verify shallan was indeed a surgebinder), and she herself was not; or maybe, just like the skybreaker that killed Lift's friend, she broke the skybreaker rule. of course, she might have been part of some other secret society, or none...

Then you can argue for any order to have done that

^^^ this

After re-reading WoR, I had a feeling bonding Syl actually started before Tien's death. BUT, maybe we should not look at Syl's bonding process, because the other spren all left Shadesmar to bond with a specific person, whereas Syl left Shadesmar w/o any target for a bond. Ym - spending his family's fortune and being the instrument of a murder should do it. Lift - living as an orphan, she must of felt a lot of pain and seen a lot of death. Renarin - probably guilt of being useless in fight? Dalinar - you can find a few. His relationship with Navani before she married Gavilar, whatever happened with his wife, that he wanted to forget her, plus the guilt over Gavilar's death (he thought if he was not drunk he could have saved him), that he got over before becoming KR (which I think helped). Adolin - hm, he's too clean not to have something there

As Mraize said, Taravangian does indeed lacks deep knowledge. However, I was impressed he could predict Wit (well, I think he's referring to Wit): Also, he knows about "Investiture", he knows bits about the Nahel Bond: And he knows Parshendi can obtain power: I am curios what he means by "bridge".

Hey, we can debate the differences between "sentience", "self-awareness" and "intelligence", but <<Odium taking over the Unmade>> is on a different level, no offence to anyone.

Let's look at these relevant quotes you linked: So, what I see is that basically Splinters are as intelligent as a shard. Call it self-awareness, sentience. Splinters, like shards (w/o the person holding the power) are smart enough to follow their intent. Look at the Unmade vs a windspren. Windspren has 0 smarts, is not "self-aware". BS calls all "intelligent" species "people", but he doesn't call Splinters "people". So I would not say splinters are really "intelligent". They can think on the lines of: "oh, there is war in alethkar, let's move there because there are more people there that i can Thrill". Like I said in my post above: "tho` mindless is not really accurate, since there is basic intelligence to follow its purpose". Some Unmade "can think". These would be the splinters. But Taravangian does not see their intelligence as something dangerous that he should look out for: Rather, he sees them as "forces" that he can make use of: So, in conclusion, I agree that splinters are self-aware, can think to follow their intent. But I would not call them "intelligent", and neither does BS. He calls them "self-aware", and he doesn't call them "people", even though he calls all intelligent species "people".

i think the "cracked/broken" persons might actually be a red herring. maybe it's a simple as "spren are attracted by traits" as seen on the cognitive side. for example, cryptics are attracted by art. now, we've seen from jasnah's unpublished chapter, that spren are both in the cognitive and physical (and look different). so imagine when shallan draws, and there are hundres of creationspren appearing in physical, how would that look like in cognitive? def. the cryptics would have leashed these creationspren to take them to the place where the creative human is ... and then they get to look a bit more at that person, maybe even the person notices them in the corner of their eyes ...