alder24

That's nice theory, but I agree, as long as he's Harmony, I doubt he could make an Avatar of Ruin without Preservation's Avatar. But as a Discord, it wouldn't be a problem anymore.

Punching a soul is not comparable to "Nightblooding it away"... That do cause harm. A lot of it.

They did it with Ashyn - not whole planet, but they did something to it that people calls it destruction of Ashyn. So yes, they are that strong. They were able to shatter God. I argue that people on Roshar had all reasons to believe that if they use a Dawnshard, they would destroy Roshar. So it was in their best interest not to use any Dawnshards, especially in combat. I know not all Dawnshards are the same, and have the same torment, but we don't know which one Hoid hold. Fused are slightly different from Kel - they have body and can FEEL pain therefore it causes them harm - Kel just thought there should be pain and felt it as a result.

You know what I meant, everyone knows what I meant - let's not argue semantics. The world "destruction" is often used to describe that event. From coppermind I don't have english version of OB, so can't provide quote. What is "this fact" in Coppermind - the destruction of Ashyn, or invasion, or both, not what you think or belive to be the truth, but how the text and wording of this sentences suggest it? But I've understood it as it was both destruction of Ashyn and later invasion of Singers that needed reassurance from Honor, and that's how I've remembered it described in the books. Not one of those events, but two combined. That's a possibility, and also to prevent it from bonding with someone so it can't destroy another world. Also didn't Odium claimed that humanity would also destroy the Roshar like Ashyn? Also also, to previous points, if Dawnshard's torments were applied to its current holders, then they would be unable to hurt people, like Hoid and someone else we know - causing destruction of the planet and severe burns on survivors looks pretty harmful. Splittening of Adonalsium also seams very harmful. So it's speculative that Dawnshards doesn't have torments before they gave it up. But again - no proofs and WoBs on that yet. Cause BAM was conneted to Roshar's spirit web, and capturing her rip a hole in that web, to which sprens were also connected and could feel it, and most likely that's why deadeyes apear only after Recreance.

By accident... Not purposefully. You mean use the Dawnshards and have certainty of destruction of Roshar, just like it was done on Ashyn, and just like Honor told them? Because there was Honor telling them, they would destroy Roshar, like their ancestors before, if they use it. And the last time someone used a Dawnshard it render whole planet uninhabitable. This is not an evidence, this is only speculations. Speculation is not an evidence. No proof that Nohadon hold a Dawnshard - only Rafoed WoBs, which are not a proof. It's not certain, it's just speculative. So let's look at this again. Dawnshards were used to Shatter Adonalsium - the bigest event after creation of Cosmere - this is a fact Dawnshard, with combination of Surges, was used on Ashyn and accidentally destroy whole planet - this is a fact Honor was so worried about it happening on Roshar, that he binded Surges, especially Bondsmithing - this is a fact Dawnshard was hidden in Akinah, under protection of lanceryn, so nobody could ever access it - this is a fact The burden of responsibility for Ashyn destruction was so big, that Honor had to personally reassure Radiants every generation - this is a fact (edit: or I might be wrong in that case) Honor was ranting before Recreance about humanity using Dawnshard with Surges and destroying Roshar, like their ancestors before on Ashyn - this is the fact Recreance was caused by the will to protect Roshar from destruction by the use of Dawnshards and Surges like on Ashyn - this is a fact After Scouring of Aimia, and extinction of lanceryn, the task of protecting the Dawnshard was so important, that Sleepless took it upon themselves, and created elaborated distractions and obstacles just to hide its presence on Akinah - this is a fact When Rysn became Dawnshard, Sleepless were so scared, that they immediately decided to kill her - this is a fact Even Sleepless decided that nobody with access to powers or investiture should hold a Dawnshard, to prevent it from being ever used - this is a fact Dawnshards were never said in books to be used in fighting during Desolations - this is a fact There is no WoB proving/suggesting that Dawnshards were used in fighting during Desolations - this is a fact I'm not seeing tthe certainty that Dawnshards were used during the desolation, what I'm seeing is that it's extremely unlikely to be true. And that you definitely can't claim it as a confirmed truth, as that is simply a lie. Every Radiant that was worried so much, about possibility of Roshar destruction by usage of Dawnshards, that Honor had to personally reassure them, would never suggest to use Dawnshards as a weapons in the first place. And when this reassurance was absent and reversed, they immediately abandoned their surges, making all the same, spontaneous decision, independent from each other.

There is no answer to this. It might require the same amount of investiture a singular Breath has, if you want to copy it. Much less if you forging yourself back to having Breaths you once had. Or a lot of investiture if you forging investiture directly into Breaths (if that's even possible). And it could be powered by stamp, If you provide enough investiture for it (on Sel it's coming from Dor). However WoB suggest that there are limits of what Dor is capable of making.

You can't be serious? How is this an argument? It was said, that Radiants fought in Desolation, Truthwatchers are Radiants, therefore they fought aswell. Nowhere was it said that Dawnshards were used in fighting during Desolation. This quote only suggest that Dawnshards are now inaccessible for humanity, NOT that they were using them in the past. He is worried that humanity won't make it without him ("I wish I could do more"), and lists out possible ways to fight Odium - only excluding Dawnshards. Please, point out where it says in this quote, that humanity was using the Dawnshards to fight? It doesn't have the meaning you claim it to have. As the person is still holding the Dawnshard and is actively changing its holder and his soul? Those are wildly different circumstances. And Rysn behavior doesn't indicate that she currently has this effects, however barely anything was specify in her interludes. We don't know yet, as Brandon doesn't tell us this. Or instantly destroy your world and everyone that is still alive, as it done it on Ashyn. This is too risky to justify using it. You doubt, they didn't. They were very aggressive about it. Again, what is this argument? It's Rafo for now. You can't use it as a proof, as this is not a proof. Why do you even keep insisting on this? You don't provide any arguments, you don't have any proof. This is not argumentative discussion, this is finding any "arguments" just to support your opinion. Again. give me definite proof, that Dawnshards were used in combat during Desolation. Evidence from books, or WoBs. Just one. If you can't find any confirmation. don't claim it to be truth.

Yes, because he is dead and can't help them anymore. That's why he mention them. Binding surges suggest he did not change his mind about Dawnshards. Kill him before he becomes Dawnshard. But Hoid effects are because he once held a Dawnshard. Does the same effects apply to someone that is currently holding a Dawnshard? Total planet destruction seams a lot worse than mere 90% of population. Don't you remember that Sleepless were to kill Rysn after they realised she took Dawnshard? Apparently there is a way to kill a person holding a Dawnshard. Thank you. You finally admitted that there is no proof of Dawnshards being use for fight during Desolation. I rest my case, your Honor.

The problem I see with this rebelion, is that the current government already condemned and cut all its ties with previous one, and Taravangian, as a reaction to Taravangian's betrayal. His daughter was purposefully kept away from him and Diagram, so she could not be connected to his actions. Even if people discoverd all of Taravangian's actions, they couldn't blame his daughter for it, as she stands on their side. Moreover who knows about what he done in Hospital? Only Diagram and Szeth - Szeth is not a trustworthy witness, and Diagram is dispersed and still loyal. Who knows about deal between Taravangian and Odium? Tbf I don't remember if Taravangian say it to Dalinar (I think he did?), and if he did, did he mention Kharbrant as a subject of this deal? Dalinar is too honorable to use this to increase unrest in now neutral city. And, what is the most scary thing, people just simply don't care about homeless people disappearing from the streats and being killed in the back rooms of the hospitals. Not when they can enjoy free healtcare for it. The deal between Odium and Taravangian is still binding to Todium, as he checked it.

And you have proof that he didn't think the same way during Desolation about dangers of using Dawnshards? There was a particular planet nearby that was a blunt example of the Dawnshard's danger. Just say, that everyone that will try to become a Dawnshard would be public enemy nr 1, and killed immediately. Sprens could just break the bond if someone were to disobey. But this is pointless speculation. Forming Dawncities is not an example of fighting with the Dawnshards during Desolations. And you have also Dawnsingers, that were Parshendi, not Humans, so that would suggest that it was them who made Dawncities and even could used Dawnshards to do it, as Brandon pointed out the "linguistic connection". This is the only instant that I can agree, that Dawnshard were used, but we don't have any confirmation about it, and no proof. I'm of the opinion that it was amplified anti-frequency of Stormseat that shattered it - Dawnshard might be involved. Because when the Dawnshard was used previously, it cause almost total destruction of the whole planet with lot's of casualties and injuries. Why would you ever try to use it again when last time was so disastrous? Honor binded Bondsmith power to prevent it from happening ever again, allowing Dawnshard to be in hands of the men would make this binding pointless. You need to prove its usage during fights of Desolations, not claim they were "because why not". I'm telling you why not - Ashyn is your why. Moreover, Dawnshard was given to Akinah to be hold safely and protected by lanceryn , so nobody would claim it and use it. Sleepless were very precise about it.

Because Honor during Recreance was ranting about people destroying Roshar with Surges and Dawnshards just like Ashyn? He most likely forbade the use of Dawnshards by humans, just like he chained the Surges (most notably Bondsmiths). He told only in the visions, that now when he's gone, humans stand no chance against Odium without Downshards. There is no proof suggesting that humans ever used Dawnshards during Desolation. Even The Poem of Ista doesn't prove it, as it mention only climbing up the stairs to a temple with a Dawnshard - not fighting in Desolation. You need in book proof, or WoB, to claim that Dawnshards were used in battle during Desolations. There is none. Just accept it. I've already corrected myself on the use of word "not possible", see post above.

Only Kaladin killed one. And that was the only one Fused that died during siege. Azure managed to "scare" them away, but never kill. Non Radiant soldier most likely killed a Fused, but it was extremely rare to happen. Not impossible, I should write improbable.

So the only known use of Downshard was on Ashyn, on Roshar we only know humans had them, but no information about USING them during Desolation. It's not possible - siege of Kholinar proves it.

You don't. Radiants are limited to the numbers of available sprens. And sprens don't reproduce like humans. So their numbers are not changing - within a certain timeframe. Do we know that humanity USE Downshards during Desolation or it was just Honor that mention them in the visions, and one poem also?

Would it worked on Allomancy and Feruchemy? However Fullborn could destroy it from a distance with duralumin steel push. I do agree, but I think Elsecaller would have better chances - if they manage to transport into CR, then they could soulcast Fullborn metalminds away, and now they face only Mistborn. But that's if they would be faster than steel compounder - in most cases, no. Also, Fused are present in CR, with surges and Voidlight. Moving into CR is dangerous, as now Radiant doesn't have blade nor plate, have limited amount of light with them, and are exposed to Fused attacks far more than in PR.

I came up with the different conclusion - I've compared the damage done by the blast to the city of Elendel (only buildings in docks collapsed, glass shattered mostly in docks and close to it, not in the entire city) and it was closer to the Beirut explosion, which was still extremely powerful (one of the most powerful non-nuclear, man-made explosions) with yield of around 1kt. If this was in hydrogen bomb power levels, glass would be shattered across the entire city, which was not observed by Steris (as she was at the other side of the city), and Wax would be engulfed by fireball (above 1Mt fireball has a radius of more than 1.2km), which didn't happen. The biggest damage was done by the tsunami that came after - however we've got no numbers or information about it. Quoting from "Scadrial vs Roshar post Lost Metal" topic: But feel free to disagree. But Wayne prevented Trellium-Harmonium reaction by triggering water-Harmonium reaction first and kicking it out of the electrical trigger, so that Harmonium-Trellium reaction couldn't happened. So it was pure chemical reaction.

During Heralds Desolation humanity had hundreds of years to recover, later, during Radiant times, just few years. This is huge difference, as there are limits as how much losses population can take and still be able to fight effectively. With Desolation happening year after year, humans can't replenish losses fast enough, can't train effectively, can't replace fallen Radiants when necessary. The losses kept accumulating until it reach breaking point, where humanity was unable to further support war effort - including Radiants as well. Today humans not only have a hard time of leaving thier homes when hurricane approaches, but also when shells are falling on thier roofs. Humans are bad at leaving behind their homes, and now we can easily buy/rent a new one. During medieval times, house is everything you have, it's all your wealth, leaving that means homelessness and poverty. Even when Desolation approaches, convincing people to leave behind their entire live for promises of safety would be futile. Most would not listen to you, they would stay. And while your Radiants and army is wasting time trying to convince the entire continent to move, Desolation starts and your forces are spread too thin and far away from each other to effectively fight it. And you do NEED a lot of infrastructure to move that amount of people to 11 cities. First of all, those cities have to have space for millions, then you need roads to those cities, vehicles and animals for people to travel with, food, water, shoes, medications, clothes. Not to mention shelters from Highstorms for millions of people on the roads, that comes every couple of days. It would take months to complete this process, and by this time, Desolation would be already ongoing. Logistically it's impossible, even with Radiants help. You have to move hundreds of millions of people. Not to mention that a lot of people would still die during travel, even with Edgedancers help. It's better to spend this time on recruitment, training and fortifying your positions. It's logical to do what you propose, but people don't behave logical, they emotional. This would never work. I do see that Radiants with their theoretical potential are just too powerful, especially compared to Fused. Maybe we don't see everything that Fused and Odium has to offer, there is a lot of Singers forms that we didn't see yet. Or maybe 4th Ideal and more Radiants are just extremely rare. Maybe the one at Feverstone Keep were all their orders had, and other orders had similar or smaller numbers of 4th ideal - as that was after peaceful millenia with no Desolations, 4th Ideal Radiants had time to appear, train, and swear their oaths, befere False Desolation happened. When it started, all sprens joined the efford and bonded, some of those new Radiants might reach 4th Ideal, but most would not. Before Last Desolation, many would not live long enough to swear 4th Ideal, and there would be no time in between Desolations to recover, train and progress, as new one is incoming already. So the number of 4th Ideal Radiants would be even lower than what we saw during Dalinar's vision. I hope that's the case at least.

Tbf Stormfather sent Highstorm out of schedule at the end of WoR, so it's valid to suggest Honor might have controlled them them the way Odium did. But I agree on the specific interpretation of Stormfather's quote about "riding the Storm".

How would you even do it? You would need to forge investiture to make Breaths, But investiture resist investiture, so while it's technically possible, however highly unlikely as it would require a lot of investiture. Or forger would have to forge themselves as someone with Breaths, and that would require imput of investiture to make those Breaths. Or If they had Breaths, and gave them up, then forged themselves as someone with those Breaths again - this might get weird, as those Breath would be connected to 2 people at one, but that would require less investiture. WoB below about Shardblade, but I think it would work similar with Breaths - if you want to copy Shardblade (Breaths in our case), you will have to give a lot of investiture to make it, or if you want to forge yourself as someone with a Shardblade that you once had, it will make some weird things as Shardblade now thinks it's owned by two persons at once. Ultimately Breaths are low reward from forgery, it would be easier and cheaper to go to Nalthis and just collect them.

That's a highest ranking bureaucratic official from another series. Congrats, you're a bureaucrat now

And your idea would make them no longer a Bondsmith, he would be a Herald after it.

It sounds ridiculous. No prep time means no metalminds and no stormlight and gems. With Prep time, metalminds and stormlights in gems. I can as easily claimed, which would be equally ridiculous, that with preperation time, Fullborn would find not only all 10 Honorblades, but also a Downshard, store ability to use those powers in nicrosil metalmind and then compound it gaining whatever he would gain from it. It is possible for him to do so, as for Bondsmith to adds themselves to the Oathpact for an eternal torture (great deal), but that is just ridiculous claim of mine, as it has nothing to do with reality. How about we focus on regular fight, as in every other topic - Fullborn has large supply of metals, and multiple full metalminds, after all they are so easy for him to made, and Bondsmith has a sack of gemstones full of Stromlight, and Plate on him already. Doesn't it sound more reasonable?

What? No, it's not looking the same. Those 2 maps are different, made in different time periods, with different indicators for mountiains. On Roshar, mountains are marked with a triangles, on Scadrial, with a contour lines. You can't compare them directly, you can only tell there are mountain in marked places. No height indicators. It's a big, flat, open space with no mountains are rivers. That's what I've meant. No natural obstacles in the way, no mountains, barely any river. Army traveling on soil with no road, will quickly turn the ground into mud, which would massively slow them down - ask Germans about it, they've learnt it in 1941. Even Napoleon was advancing by roads. Scadrial is deprived of transportation infrastructure outside of Basin. With small group of people. Not an army! How is 50 people (or whatever it was) comparable to tens of thousands with logistic and supply chains following them? And guess what, it only takes few hundreds soldiers to stop the army of tens of thousands in those mountains. It's like natural castle.

Which surrounds the entire Basin, the biggest population center on Scadrial, and has railroads up to very base of those mountains? Not helping? Because mountainous and hilly terrain in Spain did not make it difficult for Napoleon to control iberian peninsula? And the WW1 in northern Italy, where fighting stagnated in mountainous terrain, and avalanches killed tens of thousands of soldiers? WW2, again Italian campain, where Winter Line located among mountains and hills of southern Italy, successfully hold Allied advanced on Rome for entire year, with 4 battles of Monte Cassino happening? And maybe very recent war in Afghanistan where USA failed to secure mountainous country, like USSR decades before? What are you even talking about? There are roads and railways passing through mountains around Elendel, but it doesn't mean it would be easy to pass for an invading army. It would be still hard to pass, as mountains can be easily defended even when following roads. Causing avalanches, crossfire, and narrow roads and paths would make any numerically superior invading army lost their numerical advantage. This is not true. There are multiple gaps in mountain ranges that allows any army to walk around mountains to get to the other side. Gaps in Jah Keved and Alethkar, gap north of Azir in Yulay, south of the Pure Lake. Gap west of Jah Keved's capital, going through Triax and Marat to Azir Empire. Only Urithiru and Shinovar requires assaulting directly through the mountains, but the rest ot the continent can be conquered by walking around the mountain ranges. That's the point, you have to pass through these mountains to get to Elendel Basin. You have to pass through even more mountain ranges and rivers to conquer to Malwish, who still have a considerable population number. Malwish Consortium is located on highly mountainous terrain, as seen on map. This is extremely advantageous for defenders, and it would massively slowed down at worst any invading army. There is no way around those mountains, at best they could follow them to the narrow gaps in between, but they would still have to cross big rivers that flows among mountain ranges, and it would be a huge zig-zagy detour of thousands of kilometers long. Logistical nightmare. And they most likely won't bring boats through CR to go by the ocean, which would still require crossing mountain ranges. On Roshar, you follow straight line, and conquer half of the continent, without crossing single mountain range.

I have to say Fullborn. With steel and zink compounding + A-bendalloy he can move faster than Bondsmith can react, faster than F-steel alone allows him to, and he doesn't have to care about Shardblade. He can easily avoid being touch by Bondsmith, who would need this to manipulate his Connection, and with A-pewter + pewter/iron/steel/gold compounding Fullborn can crush Shardplate to pieces while healing himself from any damage. And with A-Chromium + A-Duralumin Fullbron would drain him out of Stromlight and kill him instantly. This is not a competition, this is execution.