Long Game 78: The Legend of Zelda: The False Heroes

[Illwei]

1 hour ago, Araris Valerian said:

I agree that Beedle is probably village, but I think you could also build an elim team specifically around him being evil as well. Striker doesn’t have a huge reputation for being a troll GM (yet), but I guess my stance would be more on the side of role safety than not. I’d rather not lose the game before it has really started.

I think that Beedle can not be an Elim. Sure you could try and fit that all together, but in the end that means that Beedle could approve all of the Elim requests and deny all the village. or most of the village. Or at least know what each person has, which means that it makes the Elim's job much easier.

I'm going to say there's a 5 person Elim team with the Soother role. Functionally means that they can win at 6v5/5v5 and they still have a pool of 21 people that they have to-

Okay I'm modifying that. I think 6 people with the soother. I forgot about Link and Zelda for a minute. Basically they could be at 6/7 and basically almost win but it means nothing if they don't kill Link and Zelda. Even if they have it figured out, then /shrug who knows. I'm losing thoughts.

There is a roleblocker role as well, I think that if the doctor is village, then the roleblocker is an Elim and vice versa. the roleblocker and Doctor could both be an Elim, and then I would put a knight on the Elim team. more likely that there's like two village knights and an Elim roleblocker, because I think the knights are more swingy.

EDIT:

31 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

Kohga is literally confirmed elim. It's red, which is the elim color.

SHHHH THIS IS FINE

EDIT2:

Hot take: If you're saying that Beedle could be an Elim, you're an Elim.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Illwei

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

46 minutes ago, Archer said:

Interesting. What do you mean by freedom of information heavy? Like, should be widely roleclaim? 

Not widely roleclaim, but communicating on what items I'm asking for so ten others don't go for the same item making the chances of getting the item go from how much Beedle trusts you to how much Beedle trusts you and how active and skilled you have been in past games. I don't think I'm very important, so I'm claiming for the knowledge that pure vanillas exist and will be open on what actions I take so long as that doesn't hurt the action or the info gained by the action.

[Mat he/him]

16 minutes ago, Illwei said:

and deny all the village. or most of the village. Or at least know what each person has, which means that it makes the Elim's job much easier.

Yeah I totally didn't consider that as the logical other side of e!Beedle confirming elim requests :P. If there was any paranoia (which there was, thanks to the nature of the game, dang it) it's basically gone now.

Reading Pyro as village.

That's a lot of people viewing the thread.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Faleast was taken aback. He’d thought he’d layered his disguises pretty well - some of them were even fake. But, they still knew it was him. That was just great.

Face it, Faleast. You’re… promising, but you can’t replicate a thousand years of experience.

AraRaash?

Yeeeees?

Shut up.

No can do, sir. If I’m stuck in here you’re stuck with me.

That doesn’t… never mind.

This would take a while.

 

 

Hello! I don’t have a lot of time right now, but I did follow the thread and am in existance. And I don’t like the Hot-Footed Frog idea, mainly because Elims might put in an order for them, and if that ends up with Beedle claiming to the Elim team… I’m not sure whether the Elims want Beedle dead or not, but I’d rather not find out. Plus I’d rather avoid any chance of Beedle thinking an Elim is Link and accidentally outing Zelda (or vice versa).

I’d recommend Beedle take a Durian for themselves.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

46 minutes ago, Archer said:

Interesting. What do you mean by freedom of information heavy? Like, should be widely roleclaim? 

Everyone that isn't Link or Zelda should roleclaim immediately  That certainly won't cause any problems. And I guess, since it's not happening in PMs, it doesn't even violate PM Safety! My role is:

Satori: The reclusive Lord of the Mountain is the fastest mount in Hyrule. Any player that targets Satori will go for a wild ride instead of their normal action. Satori wins the game and is removed if 6 players are roleblocked in this fashion.

[Kasimir he/him]

13 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

Everyone that isn't Link or Zelda should roleclaim immediately  That certainly won't cause any problems. And I guess, since it's not happening in PMs, it doesn't even violate PM Safety! My role is:

Satori: The reclusive Lord of the Mountain is the fastest mount in Hyrule. Any player that targets Satori will go for a wild ride instead of their normal action. Satori wins the game and is removed if 6 players are roleblocked in this fashion.

[OOC: Ugh, if we're all roleclaiming now... 

I'm Kass, time-traveling Rito minstrel. I get to PM one player each Turn and I win and am removed from the game if I successfully serenade six players with a recording of Dragostea Din Tei on my ocarina. 

Watch out TJ I'm coming for you with my harmonica ] 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Kasimir

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

11 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

Everyone that isn't Link or Zelda should roleclaim immediately  That certainly won't cause any problems. And I guess, since it's not happening in PMs, it doesn't even violate PM Safety! My role is:

Satori: The reclusive Lord of the Mountain is the fastest mount in Hyrule. Any player that targets Satori will go for a wild ride instead of their normal action. Satori wins the game and is removed if 6 players are roleblocked in this fashion.

Oh ya, my role is:

Friendly Yiga:  This Yiga isn't an elim, instead, the Friendly Yiga is a neutral role that is given a random player name at the start of the game. If this player survives for the entirety of the game, the Friendly Yiga wins. To help them on this task, they can choose to transform into a copy of the player they must keep alive. When they do this, all actions taken on both the Friendly Yiga and the copied player redirect onto the Friendly Yiga.

[Illwei]

A quick note about SE theory and how I will play this game. Note that the arguments and facts presented here are indisputable, and that I will not engage in arguments about them, because those arguments are you wasting everyone else's time about meta that is well and comprehensively established. Go make reads so we can read you.

I've reflected on my role and realized that there is a GTO play for me in this game, and therefore I am compelled to pursue it. I am going to brute force my clearness immediately upon the opening of the thread.

I am hard-claiming, and I will never be rescinding. I am Zelda. When it becomes prudent I will provide my Results.

Benefits:

1. I will survive tonight: I do not believe the Elims are able to kill me tonight, because it is so objectively unlikely that I would ever do this as Zelda. I believe that this decision reduces the importance of the seer cover to be provided by all of you to the point of it being negligible. The Elims have already been outplayed, as it were.

2. I'm lock clear: All of you already know I'm lock clear, because it is so objectively unlikely that I would do this as an Elim. You know this for at least two reasons. First, this is the easiest, lowest-stress, lowest-demand game to be an Elim in that I've ever played in. I have no need to complicate my life, as an Elim, by open-claiming on thread open, when all I have to do is provide like a C-level Elim game to probably win. This is the rare instance where you literally know that I have a billion other options as an Elim, AND that I would pursue probably ALL of them before pursuing this. Second, I engage in FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome) exceedingly rarely, which necessarily means that I *know* that this will look WEIRD and SHOCKING to you. There is no merit to an Elim play that instantly generates WEIRD and SHOCKED responses that I would be obligated to finesse and manage for the remainder of the game. As a villager, which I am, the burden is totally on you to not mess up and kill me. Makes my life super awesome.

3. There are only 25 players you need to try to read, rather than 26: I have already provided a "free" peek of me in a game with 26 players. Our win equity is dramatically improved by my being entirely off the table for the entire game.

Conclusion:

The burden of sound reasoning is now entirely upon you. I am Zelda, and thus a villager, and thus lock clear. The game is immediately simpler than it would otherwise have been, because of my decision. Now, let us enjoy that benefit and win the game.

[The Young Pyromancer he/him]

No, you're not Zelda. I'm Zelda.

[Archer he/him]

Darn, you guys got all the good ones. I just got a GM PM saying you are a Yiga Clansman, your role is to bring about the Calamity, conspire in the doc yada yada

For meta reasons (4 elim games in a row) I'm going to assume Mat isn't an elim. 

23 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Hello! I don’t have a lot of time right now, but I did follow the thread and am in existance. And I don’t like the Hot-Footed Frog idea, mainly because Elims might put in an order for them, and if that ends up with Beedle claiming to the Elim team… I’m not sure whether the Elims want Beedle dead or not, but I’d rather not find out. Plus I’d rather avoid any chance of Beedle thinking an Elim is Link and accidentally outing Zelda (or vice versa).

I’d recommend Beedle take a Durian for themselves.

So here are the interesting scenarios. 

1. Zelda doesn't put in an order for a Frog and an elim does, which confuses Beedle. That's bad, but I'm not sure why they'd do it, unless they think Beedle is evil. I respect their right to stay in hiding, but in this situation the elims correctly predicted that Zelda wouldn't go for it and were bold enough to make a fake submission. Which I find unlikely. 

2. Zelda and an elim both submit a request. In this scenario, Beedle now knows one is good and one is evil. They can't expose the elim until they know who Zelda is, but they can use reads to sus it out. Regardless, they've got a good lead on an elim, which is better than nothing. If they cut both off to be safe and Zelda doesn't get items, it isn't a huge loss. 

3. Most likely, only Zelda will submit a request. Because the elims don't want to risk being outed on D1. Why would you throw away your chances of a fun elim game like that? So Beedle can watch their back, and confirm their claim if they look about to be exed and need to divert a bad wagon. 

4. Beedle is evil. He kills Zelda, and funnels items to the elims and no one else. That's unfortunate, but then we know not to count on him, right? Which is better than not knowing and relying on him at a worse time. Like exlo. 

Oh hello, Illwei. Nice claim you got there. It's a shame it's not true because *rips off mask* I AM LINKOV! I mean Zelda! Yeah! 

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

Hey, Striker, can I vote on three people at once, if so, Illwei+Pyro+Archer(but only kinda Archer)

[Mat he/him]

That didn't sound like Illwei

The voicing I mean

Weird.

Not sure what to think about the claim, because you think the elims aren't able to kill you tonight? I mean Kohga's kill exists but you're saying they wouldn't want to use it because they wouldn't want to waste it... hmm

Ignoring it for now.

Does that mean people can request Frogs though?

Edit: Wonder who that vote counts for. I'm thinking Archer cause it's last.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Matrim's Dice

[Illwei]

ALSO

to preempt a lengthy and pointless discussion.

It is NOT dumb to ponder this post and convince yourself of its wisdom. That is your obligation as a villager, and I encourage you to think it over for as long as it takes to quell your (initially valid but ultimately unnecessary) concerns.

It IS dumb to, AFTER doing that pondering, conclude that I'm "neutral" or "wolfy." That is legitimately stupid, and I won't entertain it. ONE of the reasons it is a stupid conclusion is that the upside of this play as a wolf is absolutely DWARFED by the upside of this play as a villager. There is no equivalency between the EV gain for wolf-me in this position and villager-me in this position. They're universes apart. That means I wouldn't DO the poorer option of the two (by extension, wolf-me also wouldn't BELIEVE that I could convince the entire game of the truth of these assertions for the entire game, which as an end-game wolf I would have to believe if this strategem were to be worth pursuing). A SECOND reason that conclusion is stupid is that the EV bonus of oding this as a wolf is COMPLETELY DWARFED by me baseline wolf EV anyway. Anything that complicates my wolfing life is RIDICULOUSLY stupid for me to do, given that my wolfing life is ALREADY one of the smoothest, highest expectation wolfing lives in WW history anyway. A THIRD reason that conclusion is stupid is that you would probably have to worry about being EXPLOITED by this gambit in order to get there. However, I have NEVER engaged in this, or any similar, gambit in my entire career, meaning that if there IS exploitation to be had with this play, it is in FUTURE GAMES, not this game. For these reasons, pressuring me is extremely wolfy and should not be engaged in by any villager, ever, in this game. There will be no less productive pursuit than that in this game.

Sucks for the wolves when meta is wielded this brutally, but my allegiance is plain and my strategy perfect. Get #rekt.

[Mat he/him]

Still think it's a different tone but I do completely agree :P. Not necessarily that you're actually Zelda, but that you're village. I guess.

[Illwei]

9 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

That didn't sound like Illwei

The voicing I mean

Weird.

Thank you

5 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

but that you're village.

Pocket 100% effective

Edited June 22, 2021 by Illwei

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

15 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

 

Edit: Wonder who that vote counts for. I'm thinking Archer cause it's last.

Technically, it should either count for all of them or none of them, due to the wording of the post. If I were Striker, I'd count it as a null vote, but it's not up to me.

[The Young Pyromancer he/him]

27 minutes ago, Archer said:

For meta reasons (4 elim games in a row) I'm going to assume Mat isn't an elim. 

This isn't how math works.

[Steeldancer he/him]

Wait, why cant I take a frog again? How would that make me evil? I dont understand, it allows you to take one extra action. 

*actually uses brain for 5 seconds*

Ohhhhhh now I understand. It's not that I dont want a frog, because frogs are great. It's that zelda wants the frog more, cuz zelda is more useful and the elims would like to deny her the frog. 

I'm also very disappointed that this game has no breakable pots. What an oversight. 

[Archer he/him]

21 minutes ago, The Unknown Order said:

Hey, Striker, can I vote on three people at once, if so, Illwei+Pyro+Archer(but only kinda Archer)

If you only cast a third of a vote on me, do I only have to mount a third of a defense? Obviously I'm not an elim because. 

1 minute ago, The Unknown Order said:

Technically, it should either count for all of them or none of them, due to the wording of the post. If I were Striker, I'd count it as a null vote, but it's not up to me.

But on a more serious note, probably best not to play with the formatting of the game too much. Confusion is confusing. But it's on the GMs to decide what to do with it

14 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Still think it's a different tone but I do completely agree :P. Not necessarily that you're actually Zelda, but that you're village. I guess.

You know the difference between someone writing texts and someone writing an essay? It feels like that. I'm going to ignore it and see if Illwei keeps pumping out lengthy rebuttals for the debate they hoped would happen. :P. 

3 minutes ago, The Young Pyromancer said:

This isn't how math works.

You're assuming the distribution is pure RNG. I think the GMs made a few distros and picked one that felt fair, with the parameters that Mat gets a break and Beedle is someone likely to be on on Night rounds, so half the ruleset isn't wasted by one person's inactivity. Also Kas probably got village because they're GMing soon. 

I'll sign that petition to add pots to the store. But only broken ones, like ones that automatically kill an elim when used. 

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

4 minutes ago, Archer said:

You're assuming the distribution is pure RNG. I think the GMs made a few distros and picked one that felt fair, with the parameters that Mat gets a break and Beedle is someone likely to be on on Night rounds, so half the ruleset isn't wasted by one person's inactivity. Also Kas probably got village because they're GMing soon. 

I personally think that alignments shouldn't be fudged outside of activity and skill level. So Mat wouldn't go on a team with hyperactive players, and Kas wouldn't go on a team of inactive players, but they could both still be elims, so long as the activity is balanced. 

[Illwei]

10 minutes ago, Archer said:

You're assuming the distribution is pure RNG. I think the GMs made a few distros and picked one that felt fair, with the parameters that Mat gets a break and Beedle is someone likely to be on on Night rounds, so half the ruleset isn't wasted by one person's inactivity. Also Kas probably got village because they're GMing soon. 

I wouldn't go this route, not only is it not a good way to speculate, but if it does end up being right it feels like cheating imo. Metagaming the GM in a way

[Mat he/him]

I'd rather assume nothing about meta alignment things like that.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Matrim's Dice
ninjad by illwei lol

[Steeldancer he/him]

I dont like metagaming like that.

Anyway when I run games I do it entirely randomly and make adjustments where necessary. So I'm not gonna assume ANYTHING about how the GMs do things. 

Also, can someone remind me how to do colored text on mobile? I vaguely remember theres a code for doing it but I have forgotten...

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

14 minutes ago, Archer said:

You're assuming the distribution is pure RNG. I think the GMs made a few distros and picked one that felt fair, with the parameters that Mat gets a break and Beedle is someone likely to be on on Night rounds, so half the ruleset isn't wasted by one person's inactivity. Also Kas probably got village because they're GMing soon. 

I personally think that alignments shouldn't be fudged outside of activity and skill level. So Mat wouldn't go on a team with hyperactive players, and Kas wouldn't go on a team of inactive players, but they could both still be elims, so long as the activity is balanced. 

Edit: @Steeldancer, its (color=red/green) text (/color), but with square brackets.

Edited June 22, 2021 by The Unknown Order

[Illwei]

I'm on the couch with my dog watching a show, and my dog is watching it too lmao

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

Also, can someone remind me how to do colored text on mobile? I vaguely remember theres a code for doing it but I have forgotten...

[color=[color]text[/color]

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Illwei