Long Game 43: Under the Banner of Adonalsium

[Arinian]

As I said before people just tried to get what they want and no discussion can influence this simple fact, it's always will be so. Also I was one who tried to get Odium's investiture in fact I wanted to get Odium but I'm failed, probably it's for the best because when I'm getting kill role it's hard to stop me from murdering people 

Don't know what else we can discuss at this point? Lynch? I would say no for lynch today, because if I was elim I would surely kept conversion for later so chance on hitting elim is very low right now(this reason for no lynch can be munched for long time but I just don't want people to die too early in THIS game) .

Whom I suspect? Everyone and no one at the same time I just haven't fully read thread yet.

[Stick. she/her]

11 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Another interesting thing is, with you having seen the previous spreadsheet, you're in a position to make a good number of claims about the previous distribution, which, without coming forward about their previous roles, people might have a hard time refuting.  

True, but I don't see what she would gain from false claiming here.

11 minutes ago, Magestar said:

there are at most four Elims.

How's it four? Hoid and Khriss + two converts each, right? That's six?

11 minutes ago, Magestar said:

, I can definitely see the current holder just keeping it.

I would do this TBH 

[Magestar he/him]

17 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

How's it four? Hoid and Khriss + two converts each, right? That's six?

I would assume they can only convert one player per night?  Perhaps not.

17 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

True, but I don't see what she would gain from false claiming here.

Neither do I, per se.  Just an interesting note.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Magestar

[Stick. she/her]

7 minutes ago, Magestar said:

I would assume they can only convert one player per night?  Perhaps not.

Ah. I misinterpreted your sentence to mean a maximum of four elims throughout the game. My baddd

[Elbereth she/her]

 

36 minutes ago, Hemalurgic Headshot said:

I was mainly phrasing it as a rhetorical question. I don't have many other answers for you, because, yes, without Odium or Ruin the lynch is the last option for village kills.

My point stands. You're bringing up the discussion of whether we should have a lynch or not, which tends to be non-alignment indicative discussion. Why? 

(And it's not the last. The Shardworlds could still work. There's no reason to think they'd be any better than the lynch, though.)

23 minutes ago, Magestar said:

1. Alright then.  Let's flesh this out.  What's your point?

2. This whole thing is becoming rather interesting.  The fact that the game was rebooted at all, in such a fashion, makes it rather fascinating to begin with.  It's already added an interesting dynamic, which I'm not sure I'm fond of.  Another interesting thing is, with you having seen the previous spreadsheet, you're in a position to make a good number of claims about the previous distribution, which, without coming forward about their previous roles, people might have a hard time refuting.  

3. I'll note that while I'm usually all for a D1 lynch, I'm not sure how useful it will be in this particular game, with a max of 4 Elims and a min of two, as well as all these shards lying around who we don't necessarily want dead.

1. My point is that you're not bringing up the obvious reason for Sharders taking charges of Odium, and instead seem confused as to why anyone would. Is that because you actually hadn't thought of it, or some other reason? 

2. I can make precisely two claims about the previous distribution: who Hoid was, and who Khriss was. (I didn't see who Survival was, because the sheet is set up in such a way that Hoid and Khriss are at the top, and I noticed that I was in the wrong one by those names being different.) I am willing to make neither of those, as it is up to those individuals to claim or not. I am willing to confirm that Devotary was wrong, though, in order to give her(?) more time to respond, as I know that a counterclaim will happen sooner or later regardless of whether I say anything. 

3. First, four elims in 22 players is pretty normal. Less than that is certainly possible, but I don't see what we'd gain from assuming it and not lynching just in case we have a slightly higher chance of hitting a villager than usual. Second, is there any reason why we want them dead all that much less than normal villagers? Lynching a Shard could well have the advantage of making the Shard convert a cycle later than it would've, if the holder intended to keep it. 

[Magestar he/him]

36 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

1. My point is that you're not bringing up the obvious reason for Sharders taking charges of Odium, and instead seem confused as to why anyone would. Is that because you actually hadn't thought of it, or some other reason? 

Well, to be fair, when I wrote that post, I wasn't really thinking about the reasons as thoroughly as perhaps I should have.  I was more thinking along the lines of "Odium?  Someone thought it was a good idea to release the essence of hatred?"  But I suppose I can see reasons for Sharders to want Odium around.

38 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

2. I can make precisely two claims about the previous distribution: who Hoid was, and who Khriss was. (I didn't see who Survival was, because the sheet is set up in such a way that Hoid and Khriss are at the top, and I noticed that I was in the wrong one by those names being different.) I am willing to make neither of those, as it is up to those individuals to claim or not. I am willing to confirm that Devotary was wrong, though, in order to give her(?) more time to respond, as I know that a counterclaim will happen sooner or later regardless of whether I say anything. 

Fair.  I am certainly interested to see what Devotary has to say.

39 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

3. First, four elims in 22 players is pretty normal. Less than that is certainly possible, but I don't see what we'd gain from assuming it and not lynching just in case we have a slightly higher chance of hitting a villager than usual. Second, is there any reason why we want them dead all that much less than normal villagers? Lynching a Shard could well have the advantage of making the Shard convert a cycle later than it would've, if the holder intended to keep it. 

Hmm.  For some reason that number seems really small to me, although I suppose it really isn't.  I do think that it is more likely we have closer to two Elims rather then four, but if you guys want to proceed with the lynch that's fine by me.  As far as lynching a shard...  I don't really know that we want the shards to be moving around randomly.  That's just that much more of a chance that they fall into the wrong hands.  It'd be much better to have the holders return them, and/or give them to someone they trust just before they turn.

And that's if they even want to give them up.  To be fair, a shard's goals won't necessarily be contrary to those of the village, IMO.

[Megasif he/him]

Here to say I'm alive but rather busy this weekend. The extra night cycle has actually helped so I should be okay tomorrow IRL day.

Don't really have any thoughts as to the vote for today. Do we know if hoid and khrisalla are starting with a team?

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

45 minutes ago, Elbereth said:

2. I can make precisely two claims about the previous distribution: who Hoid was, and who Khriss was. (I didn't see who Survival was, because the sheet is set up in such a way that Hoid and Khriss are at the top, and I noticed that I was in the wrong one by those names being different.) I am willing to make neither of those, as it is up to those individuals to claim or not. I am willing to confirm that Devotary was wrong, though, in order to give her(?) more time to respond, as I know that a counterclaim will happen sooner or later regardless of whether I say anything. 

I'm... not sure why you're doing this. I assume that I cannot show you the actual doc, but I can summarize it. 

I was introduced by my AI assistant Adeptus Hamonius. Wilson was listed as the IM. I was using the light green color and remaining anonymous as everyone who could access the doc already knew who I was, though at one point I claimed to be ARINIAN, Lord of Colors. Seonid told me that Khriss can theoretically steal two Shards at once is she wasn't already a Vessel. I tried to signify that I was asking a question I wanted answered by putting the @ symbol in front of his name, but then he told me that he would prefer it if I bolded my questions, and that urgent questions should be asked in a PM. Rae talked to me at one point and said that she would not answer any mechanics questions. I got a PAFO card when I tried to ask how Hoid was doing. She used a custom blue with an RGB value of 43,161,216. At one point I typed

ECHO ECHO ECHO ECHO ECHO ECHO ECHO ECHO ECHO ECHO across the page and nobody responded, which made me sad.

I don't know how else you want me to legally show that I was Khriss last round. I will note that we have already had someone claim Hoid. If anyone else wants to claim Khriss, feel free.

 

[Stick. she/her]

Huh. Seems legit. Ish. All of this is really strange. Can the 'other' Khriss please come forward and claim so that we have more to work with here?

Edit:

Oh, and @Megasif, Seonid confirmed that Khriss and Hoid start without teams.

Edited March 17, 2018 by _Stick_

[Megasif he/him]

2 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

Oh, and @Megasif, Seonid confirmed that Khriss and Hoid start without teams.

Okay thank you.

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

At a math competition (my weekend’s really busy for whatever reason). I don’t think the release of Autonomy is necessarily bad, as until they become self-aligned they aren’t really a problem to the village. I propose that whoever has it continues to pass it around to keep their village alignment.

Ruin is a bigger issue, and one that I could see Khriss going for over a conversion. Getting Ruin, the extra action it grants, and the ability to blow up Silverlight, likely releasing all the Shards and scattering us among the remaining worlds is something I could definitely see Khriss doing. So I think that finding and lynching Khriss this cycle should be our priority. It’s unlikely to happen, but right now she’s probably a bigger threat than Hoid, as I can’t see a situation in which Hoid didn’t convert last night, while I could see multiple in which Khriss holds off on hers. Khriss + Ruin should scare the living daylights out of everyone here. 

Odium is a huge problem; however, I don’t think we should go after him yet. Right now, the person holding it is almost 100% sure to be village (unless they were Hoid’s convert), and unless they’re a troll that wants Odium’s win con (which is, sadly, a legitimate possibility) and plan on shattering Cultivation, we have bigger fish to fry at the moment. However, I hope the village will actually go for Cultivation tonight, if for no other reason than to prevent its Shattering. Odium, if you have a shred of decency, don’t hit Cultivation tonight. The village depends on it. If you do, I will personally hunt you and try to lynch you. You probably still have a village win con. Hold to it, please.

Likely things happening tonight:

-Odium kills Culty (please don’t, Odium)

-Ruin blows Silverlight up, releasing all the Shards 

-The village gets a decent number of these Shards

As for the lynch, I just don’t have time to comb through everyone’s stuff, but will express that something seems off about Steel beyond him potentially being Odium. I’ll have more thoughts tonight. Sorry for the low quality of this post.

[Orlok Tsubodai he/him]

I've just lost an 18 post multiquote, and with it two hours work. I don't have the energy to go back and do it again, so I'm going to summarise my points instead.

Devotary demonstrates progression of thought in their posts of last cycle, although their initial plan costs the village significantly in the action economy.

I don't see why El would have a strong incentive to falsely accuse Devotary, when doing so is easily disprovable through lack of a counterclaim. On the other hand, Devotary has a strong incentive to falsely claim to have been Khriss, given the building suspicion on them.

My main suspicion right now, though, is of @Magestar.

On 16/03/2018 at 5:40 PM, Magestar said:

Fair.  I see it was a bad idea now.

People do tend to reveal more and be more open in PMs, if they ever talk.  But I'm not sure how useful it will be in this scenario, especially with conversions.

This post bothered me for a while, before I realised why it struck me as off. It seems to me to be needlessly equivocal, as if Mage is reluctant to give an opinion.

On 16/03/2018 at 11:46 PM, Magestar said:

Same faction as ever, actually.  My role PM looks like a time loop.  

It's not like it was likely that my faction was going to change.  People change their minds, you know.  It's not like I'm going to persist in a bad idea once I realize it's bad.  

There are two parts in this post that contribute to my suspicion of Mage. The first line's levity is the first contributor here - I think it seems fabricated. The first entence of the second line is the other flag. Of course it wasn't necessarily likely, but it was certainly possible. The sentence included in this post doesn't add anything to the post.

On 17/03/2018 at 0:17 PM, Magestar said:

What.

Why.  Seriously?

Ok then.  Well, in all likelihood, we have a bunch of villagers targeting Odium and Ruin.  It seems a little odd to me, although I'm looking back and seeing some discussion about freeing Ruin to keep it out of the wrong hands?  That's interesting.  Odium, though, seems like an odd choice for a bunch of villagers to go after.

Autonomy, I understand.  It's investiture ability is super useful to the village, and it's Shardic abilities are really sweet.   But as for the other two, well, I'm not so sure.

What I'm wondering is whether you guys think these shards were released because lots of people wanted their investiture, or because people wanted the actual shards.  Interesting to think about.

What's also interesting is that even more shards weren't released, given the rather low release cost, and the number of players.

I agree that shards should probably get put back before Alignment changes occur.

But why not Steeldancer?    

I was actually thinking about suggesting something like that to Odium, as unfortunate as it is that we have to shatter a shard.  Having at least one shard shattered is probably a good thing.  Pick a boring one, pretty please?   Not so sure about Ruin, but maybe.

Again, the highlighted parts do not feel like a natural reaction, and instead read as an attempt to seem concerned, rather than showing Magestar's natural concern.

On 17/03/2018 at 2:52 PM, Magestar said:

Alright then.  Let's flesh this out.  What's your point?

This whole thing is becoming rather interesting.  The fact that the game was rebooted at all, in such a fashion, makes it rather fascinating to begin with.  It's already added an interesting dynamic, which I'm not sure I'm fond of.  Another interesting thing is, with you having seen the previous spreadsheet, you're in a position to make a good number of claims about the previous distribution, which, without coming forward about their previous roles, people might have a hard time refuting.  

It would be really bizarre for DoS to claim such a thing, if it wasn't true, at least in my opinion.  I'm a little suspicious of DoS to begin with, just from tone.  However, similar tones have been non alignment indicative in the past, so I'm gonna withhold judgement for now.

Another interesting thing is that at this point, there are at most four Elims.

Odium doesn't really need to be a target for the village, as long as the owner passes it, or returns it to containment, before they're corrupted.  But, knowing players on this forum, I can definitely see the current holder just keeping it.

I'll note that while I'm usually all for a D1 lynch, I'm not sure how useful it will be in this particular game, with a max of 4 Elims and a min of two, as well as all these shards lying around who we don't necessarily want dead.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind killing DoS, but for now I'm just gonna poke Philepe De Pedro Von Leiderhuch Johnson III.

There seems to be inconsistency here, and I'm surprised that Magestar is using a poke vote, given the alignment indicative discussions that have occurred. 

On 17/03/2018 at 4:12 PM, Magestar said:

Well, to be fair, when I wrote that post, I wasn't really thinking about the reasons as thoroughly as perhaps I should have.  I was more thinking along the lines of "Odium?  Someone thought it was a good idea to release the essence of hatred?"  But I suppose I can see reasons for Sharders to want Odium around.

Fair.  I am certainly interested to see what Devotary has to say.

Hmm.  For some reason that number seems really small to me, although I suppose it really isn't.  I do think that it is more likely we have closer to two Elims rather then four, but if you guys want to proceed with the lynch that's fine by me.  As far as lynching a shard...  I don't really know that we want the shards to be moving around randomly.  That's just that much more of a chance that they fall into the wrong hands.  It'd be much better to have the holders return them, and/or give them to someone they trust just before they turn.

And that's if they even want to give them up.  To be fair, a shard's goals won't necessarily be contrary to those of the village, IMO.

The passive language here feels off, and the aversion to a lynch triggers a tinfoil hat part of my mind considering whether Mage was Hoid or Khriss and didn't convert last cycle. 

 

It's not exactly a cast iron case, but a string of small points making me wary of Mage at this point. For now, Magestar.

[Seonid he/him]

GM Note: My apologies for not catching this quickly enough to nip it in the bud. By the time I saw it, it had already sparked discussion.

However, the use of accidental spreadsheet knowledge and the use of doc knowledge from the earlier game is something that definitely should not have happened.

[Magestar he/him]

55 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

Huh. Seems legit. Ish. All of this is really strange. Can the 'other' Khriss please come forward and claim so that we have more to work with here?

Edit:

Oh, and @Megasif, Seonid confirmed that Khriss and Hoid start without teams.

See, if El was lying, then there wouldn't be another Khriss.  That's one of the really odd things about this.  There are super easy ways to prove either of them wrong.

But it seems really bizarre that either of them would lie about this.  It just doesn't seem to have a good end for anyone who lied.

And besides, how would this effect this iteration of the game at all?  Like, why does it matter?

30 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

This post bothered me for a while, before I realised why it struck me as off. It seems to me to be needlessly equivocal, as if Mage is reluctant to give an opinion.

Yup.  Mage is indeed reluctant to give an opinion.

30 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

There are two parts in this post that contribute to my suspicion of Mage. The first line's levity is the first contributor here - I think it seems fabricated. The first entence of the second line is the other flag. Of course it wasn't necessarily likely, but it was certainly possible. The sentence included in this post doesn't add anything to the post.

I did indeed try to bring some levity to the game;  TBF, though, that phrase that you seem to think was fabricated was literally what I thought when I looked at my role PM in the morning.  The first sentence of the second line was me making sure Pyro understood something.

30 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

Again, the highlighted parts do not feel like a natural reaction, and instead read as an attempt to seem concerned, rather than showing Magestar's natural concern.

I don't know what say to that, as that was my natural reaction.  I admit I did consider removing it, as I could see that it looked sort of contrived;  but I ended up deciding against it, as it was just my first reaction.  As I've said in previous posts, my initial reaction to Odium being free was that it was a bad thing.  This is a little odd, actually, as usually I'd be the one showing people that Odium isn't necessarily against the village.

30 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

There seems to be inconsistency here, and I'm surprised that Magestar is using a poke vote, given the alignment indicative discussions that have occurred. 

I don't know what you mean by this.  I just poked a person I thought was quiet?

30 minutes ago, Orlok Tsubodai said:

The passive language here feels off, and the aversion to a lynch triggers a tinfoil hat part of my mind considering whether Mage was Hoid or Khriss and didn't convert last cycle. 

I'm always averse to lynching people.  And, honestly, I'm not surprised that my posts come off as contrived, or overly passive, or overthought.  I spent a good portion of my early days in SE getting repeatedly lynched, as a villager, for my posts, which apparently gave off an "Elim vibe".  As a result, regardless of my alignment, I spend a good deal of time reading over my own posts, and attempting to make sure everything is worded as cleanly as possible.  If anything, this happens more often when I'm a villager, since when I'm an Elim I tend to feel more comfortable.  

Clearly, trying to make my posts sound less evil is just as bad as posting the first things that come to my mind, so I'm not sure what to do about that.

32 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Odium is a huge problem; however, I don’t think we should go after him yet. Right now, the person holding it is almost 100% sure to be village (unless they were Hoid’s convert), and unless they’re a troll that wants Odium’s win con (which is, sadly, a legitimate possibility) and plan on shattering Cultivation, we have bigger fish to fry at the moment. However, I hope the village will actually go for Cultivation tonight, if for no other reason than to prevent its Shattering. Odium, if you have a shred of decency, don’t hit Cultivation tonight. The village depends on it. If you do, I will personally hunt you and try to lynch you. You probably still have a village win con. Hold to it, please.

In other news, this seems really really odd.  First of all, as far as I can tell, Odium is not a huge problem RN.  In fact, I don't even think we can say for sure that Odium will become a huge problem.  Shattering Cultivation doesn't seem to be a bad thing either, at least for the Shard.  This post feels a bit odd to me, as well as slightly overly emotive.  

Also, as I've said earlier, I'm not super fond of the discussion revolving around the previous game.  The way distributions tend to work, I feel that the previous game shouldn't effect this one at all.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Magestar

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

I went too far defending myself with knowledge from the doc. I apologize to everyone, especially Seonid, Arraenae, and Wilson. I should have checked what was legal to disclose before paraphrasing large sections of the doc.

 

32 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Ruin is a bigger issue, and one that I could see Khriss going for over a conversion. Getting Ruin, the extra action it grants, and the ability to blow up Silverlight, likely releasing all the Shards and scattering us among the remaining worlds is something I could definitely see Khriss doing.

Seonid said on page one of the signup thread that, "If Ruin destroys Silverlight, contained Shards move to random Shardworlds. They remain in containment, and any player that can target a contained Shard with an ability can use that ability to target any Shard that is on the same Shardworld they are. (So, basically, any Silverlight only abilities become "anywhere with a contained Shard" abilities.)" Using Ruin to blow up Silverlight was my strategy when I was Khriss, though, so it is something to watch out for.

[The Young Pyromancer he/him]

@Drake Marshall, yes, I have namedropped Khriss, but when I talked about Survival, I was asking questions about him.  I have just been making jokes about Khriss.  Also, I think all the current shards will gang up on Odium.

Oh yeah, Magestar

Edited March 17, 2018 by TheYoungPyromancer

[Magestar he/him]

12 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

Oh yeah, Magestar

Do you have any reason for this?

[The Young Pyromancer he/him]

The reasons I stated in a previous thread.  Also, for the reasons Orlock stated.

*Sends mage on a manhunt to find what I mean*

Edited March 17, 2018 by TheYoungPyromancer

[Stick. she/her]

39 minutes ago, Magestar said:

1 hour ago, _Stick_ said:

Huh. Seems legit. Ish. All of this is really strange. Can the 'other' Khriss please come forward and claim so that we have more to work with here?

Edit:

Oh, and @Megasif, Seonid confirmed that Khriss and Hoid start without teams.

See, if El was lying, then there wouldn't be another Khriss.  That's one of the really odd things about this.  There are super easy ways to prove either of them wrong.

But it seems really bizarre that either of them would lie about this.  It just doesn't seem to have a good end for anyone who lied.

And besides, how would this effect this iteration of the game at all?  Like, why does it matter?

It matters because one of them is lying.:P And I'm curious to know who and why.

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

48 minutes ago, Magestar said:

In other news, this seems really really odd.  First of all, as far as I can tell, Odium is not a huge problem RN.  In fact, I don't even think we can say for sure that Odium will become a huge problem.  Shattering Cultivation doesn't seem to be a bad thing either, at least for the Shard.  This post feels a bit odd to me, as well as slightly overly emotive.  

It’s an issue because villagers have next to no motive to go for Odium unless they want to kill people. I’ll admit, I tried for Odium last turn. I don’t think anyone else will admit this, and I’m aware it paints a large target on my back. I wanted the Investiture and not the Shard, though, since I thought a kill action would be useful later. But I did NOT want to release the Shard, because now: 1) the person with Odium is going to try to shatter Cultivation, which eliminates our only means of restoring Shattered Shards, which means Odium can effectively cripple our Shardic ability use; 2) the person with Odium might want to get Odium’s individual win con, which is probably something that deals with Shattering all the Shards AND removes a 17th Sharder from our shrinking pool of villagers and 3) a vig kill every round isn’t good either, as even if it does hit either Elim team eventually it’ll probably hit twice as many villagers first.

@Devotary of Spontaneity Thanks for clarifying (I should read the rules), but as you yourself said, that doesn’t eliminate the dangers of Khriss doing it. Having our Shardic power dispersed among several planets will definitely make things more interesting at the least, and dangerous at the most. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Fifth Scholar
Added a thing

[The Young Pyromancer he/him]

Wait.  Does Odium need to be on the same world as you?

[Magestar he/him]

1 minute ago, Fifth Scholar said:

1) the person with Odium is going to try to shatter Cultivation, which eliminates our only means of restoring Shattered Shards, which means Odium can effectively cripple our Shardic ability use;

Why?  A smart Odium would instead pass the shard before becoming the single entity that every single faction wants dead.  At least, that's what I would do.

3 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

2) the person with Odium might want to get Odium’s individual win con, which is probably something that deals with Shattering all the Shards AND removes a 17th Sharder from our shrinking pool of villagers and

Maybe.  I agree it'd be a good idea to not lose more villagers to shard win-cons, but again, I don't know that all shardic win-cons will be anti-village.  In fact, I rather doubt it. 

5 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

3) a vig kill every round isn’t good either, as even if it does hit either Elim team eventually it’ll probably hit twice as many villagers first.

That's fair.

3 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

Wait.  Does Odium need to be on the same world as you?

I don't believe the rules say he does.

18 minutes ago, TheYoungPyromancer said:

*Sends mage on a manhunt to find what I mean*

Lol so accurate though.   I think you're referring to my apparent sudden change of opinion?  I think I responded to that.  Besides, if anything, my change of opinion was a progression that had continued since it was first brought up, and became more village aligned rather than less.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Quote

@Drake Marshall, yes, I have namedropped Khriss, but when I talked about Survival, I was asking questions about him.  I have just been making jokes about Khriss.  Also, I think all the current shards will gang up on Odium.

Oh yeah, Magestar

Perfect timing, I just got online. This is certainly IKYK territory, but please understand that I do find it noteworthy that you repeatedly brought up Khriss.

How do you propose the other shards gang up on Odium? I'm not sure I understand.

6 hours ago, Straw said:

Hmm. I’d advise Ruin to destroy Braize, and Odium should probably shatter a Shard in containment, just to make the Hoid faction sudden death win condition far harder to achieve. I would also advise Autonomy to immediately start making aspects on various worlds, as insurance against vote hammers.

I like how you are thinking.

Also though, if the people holding these shards care about playing to their current win condition, they may not want to hold on to their shards for too long.

5 hours ago, Hemalurgic Headshot said:

Additionally, there are three Vessels running around.

Four. Survival is still a thing.

3 hours ago, Elbereth said:

Also, you weren't Khriss last time. (Which I am hesitant to reveal, but it'd be counterclaimed sooner or later anyway, so I have no qualms about speeding up the process.)

Interesting.

1 hour ago, Seonid said:

GM Note: My apologies for not catching this quickly enough to nip it in the bud. By the time I saw it, it had already sparked discussion.

However, the use of accidental spreadsheet knowledge and the use of doc knowledge from the earlier game is something that definitely should not have happened.

Oh. Sorry if I said anything bad 

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

13 minutes ago, Magestar said:

Why?  A smart Odium would instead pass the shard before becoming the single entity that every single faction wants dead.  At least, that's what I would do.

19 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

2) the person with Odium might want to get Odium’s individual win con, which is probably something that deals with Shattering all the Shards AND removes a 17th Sharder from our shrinking pool of villagers and

Maybe.  I agree it'd be a good idea to not lose more villagers to shard win-cons, but again, I don't know that all shardic win-cons will be anti-village.  In fact, I rather doubt it. 

Just because it’s ideal for Odium to pass his Shard doesn’t mean he will. If a villager really wants the power of the Shard of Hate, they’ll let the win con possess them. An ideal game isn’t necessarily the most fun one, and everyone plays these games to have fun.

I definitely agree that most Shards won’t have anti-village win cons, but if I could guess one Shard that does, it’s probably Odium. Which is the point I was trying to make.

@Straw Your advice is good, but I have a sneaking suspicion Ruin is not in village hands. But getting rid of Braize would stop kill actions outside of Odium/the lynch, if I’m not misremembering the rules. Which I see as a good thing. So if Ruin is nice, I agree they should shatter Braize, if possible.

[Hemalurgic Headshot he/him]

2 hours ago, Elbereth said:

My point stands. You're bringing up the discussion of whether we should have a lynch or not, which tends to be non-alignment indicative discussion. Why? 

(And it's not the last. The Shardworlds could still work. There's no reason to think they'd be any better than the lynch, though.)

Well, being NAI is better than being Elim, correct? That stands on its own. 

6 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Four. Survival is still a thing.

Thank you. It completely slipped my mind.