Stormlight reread - things to look out for

[+Extesian]

This may be a strange Q&A question. I’m about to start my pre-Oathvember re-read of WoK and WoR. My last two were for enjoyment, this one I’ll take a forensic approach to. I’m reasonably full-bottle on general Cosmere lore, realmatics and WoBs so it’s about time I really get down some specific quotes and references from the books themselves.

 

So my question is – any things I should look out for? Any issues people can think of where WoBs are just not sufficient but you think there may be hints in the books I can look out for over the next 2 months? I’m far better at finding specific patterns than noticing them.so throw at me any thoughts. I’m thinking of things like eye-colors (not them, I’ve already done that, but things like that that are very hard to search for, but much easier when you track them as you read).

 

Things on my list so far: trying to identify the remaining Heralds; looking for evidence of the Iriali; looking for evidence of Honor’s perpendicularity; general evidence of potential worldhoppers, particularly kandra or DRAGONS; trying to find any mythology that may have been inspired by Cultivation (other than the Nightwatcher); evidence of any differences in the way different Nahel-bonding spren manifest, behave, self-identify and the way their surgebinders manifest new Oaths (eg Kaladin’s glyph explosions); any evidence at all of the main secret societies that isn’t immediately obvious; evidence of the origin of various ‘dead’ Shardblades; any evidence of cremlings or similar things that could be Aimian; anything that could indicate Rosharan and Cosmere timelines better than we know; and just generally any evidence that matter we consider canon or canon-ish may be mistaken.

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions guys.

[Calderis]

 I'll respond in kind I guess. 

Spoiler

 

@maxal I'll happily agree to disagree. I understand your viewpoint even if I don't agree with it. 

I personally find throwing an autistic character into a story solely for the purpose of "inclusion" to be far more offensive. In most cases its an attention grab that's meant to up sales without any real substance. 

The whole reason I like the idea is because it shouldn't be something to be cured, and that's never what I said. Having it be a neurological change from a magical source doesn't bother me. Having it be something "wrong" to be cured would. It's a fantasy world and having elements of the real world have possible magical causes doesn't bother me in the slightest, but changing those things to have "fixes" makes them something that isn't a part of the person. On that I agree with you. 

The treatment that my son receives from strangers is what makes me like the idea of it being perceived to be a curse, only to be flipped around and be a strength. The idea that it's not a curse, but people choose to call it that because they're ignorant and don't understand something different doesn't mean something bad. 

I know a lot about the varying severity of this. I don't know the extent of the things you dealt with in your life, but I'm well aware of how hard it was to classify, and how counterproductive the "treatments" for such conditions were in the past. 

I fully understand your reaction to what I've said, and I don't expect you to to change your mind. I just feel that a magic has been introduced into the story that specifically causes neurological changes, and in world people think of those changes negatively, so it would a fantastic twist in the name of all mental conditions if those "curses" were something completely different. 

 

[aemetha]

I don't think the cloth was the boon in the second hand account at all. I think acquiring or selling the cloth was, and that is something easily influenced by psychology or neurology.

[Oversleep]

9 hours ago, aemetha said:

I don't think the cloth was the boon in the second hand account at all. I think acquiring or selling the cloth was, and that is something easily influenced by psychology or neurology.

How about you go and read in the book? It's said that his father got the cloth which he later sold.

[Ammanas]

I have been away from the shard for the last few days and didn't see the spirited debate concerning Renarin. I wonder if (the image below) is how outsiders view us. And just so you dont get the wrong idea just know I think you are all great...the image is a hyperbole 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ammanas

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

I have been away from the shard for the last few days and didn't see the spirited debate concerning Renarin. I wonder if (the image below) is how outsiders view us. And just so you dont get the wrong idea just know I think you are all great...the image is a hyperbole 

That's storming beautiful 

[Argent]

Oh, look, another thread derailed by Renarin and his special brain...

[+Extesian]

1 hour ago, Argent said:

Oh, look, another thread derailed by Renarin and his special brain...

To be fair, there was beautiful clickbait. 

[aemetha]

10 hours ago, Oversleep said:

How about you go and read in the book? It's said that his father got the cloth which he later sold.

How about you re-read it and quote the passage.

Quote

He got a heap of good cloth; sold to keep us from starving during the lurnip famine a few decades ago.

That passage is a second hand account, and two parts with no indication whether the first or second part of the passage is the boon.

Furthermore, we have a WoB that the boons are neurological in nature, of which a "heap of good cloth" most certainly is not.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#187

Quote

CHEESE NINJA

Nightwatcher's curses all appear to be neurological in effect, are the boons limited in any particular manner?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

So I would say my explanation is a better fit to the evidence than your suggestion that the cloth is emphatically the only possible interpretation.

Edit: re-reading that passage there is some equivocating in that WoB, he says the boons are limited, not necessarily neurological. I still maintain that my explanation is equally as plausible as the alternative though.

Edited August 11, 2017 by aemetha

[maxal]

23 hours ago, Calderis said:

 I'll respond in kind I guess. 

I am merely trying not to pollute too much the thread...

I definitely agree adding characters with disabilities for the shake of inclusion is offensive: I would hate for stories to become nothing more than a checklist of items to be included whatever they may be. I however never felt Brandon created Renarin for this sole purpose. I felt he wrote him because he was genuinely curious about such character and he truly wanted to attempt at writing him right. He also truly seems to like/enjoy his character. Thus, with the case at hand, I don't think we are dealing with a matter of attempting to up sales or giving Brandon a social conscience which isn't to say the same discussion on another book would draft the same conclusions (not examples currently come to mind).

I think I understand your perspective a bit better in having the world believe Renarin's autism truly is a curse only to see it flourish and become a strength. The terminology however still bothers me and I would rather Brandon did not go this way. Having autism being caused by the Nightwatcher would make it an in-world curse for real and not just the perception of ignorant people.

I also think the idea of having the Nightwatcher's curses ending up being more than they seem. Though I arguably wonder what's the twist with Dalinar forgetting his wife, providing it was indeed his curse.

5 hours ago, Argent said:

Oh, look, another thread derailed by Renarin and his special brain...

Every once in a while, subjects derail towards a selected few favorites...

[Oversleep]

29 minutes ago, aemetha said:

How about you re-read it and quote the passage.

Since you seem to have an English copy nearby, please quote the entire paragraph. Alltogether it's something like "some of them got what they wanted. Most of them regretted the curse, except for my father. He got a heap of good cloth; sold to keep us from starving during the lurnip famine a few decades ago."

Now how does it sound? Where some of them got what they wanted and he got a heap of good cloth? Why is there any ambiguity about what was it that Nightwatcher gave him?

(Except for the immortal "it's secondhand")

29 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Furthermore, we have a WoB that the boons are neurological in nature

You misread that WoB.

29 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Edit: re-reading that passage there is some equivocating in that WoB, he says the boons are limited, not necessarily neurological. I still maintain that my explanation is equally as plausible as the alternative though.

When somebody asks Brandon about stuff like "possible" or "limited in any manner" he gladly takes the loophole. It's possible for us to turn lead into gold. Are they limited in any manner? That can mean as little as that Nightwatcher can't reform Adonalsium at wish. That's a limit.

That WoB means next to nothing.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Oversleep

[+Extesian]

Here's the quote

Quote

“On account of my father going, my mother going, and each of my brothers going. A few got what they wanted. Most all of them regretted the curse, save my father. He got a heap of good cloth; sold to keep us from starving during the lurnip famine a few decades ago.” “What was his curse?” Baxil said. “Saw the world upside down from then on.”

There's no doubt as to what Av thought the boon was, what he was told. He may be wrong, his father also may be wrong. I refuse to believe that was the actual boon until we see similar examples. Because its stupid. That WoB may be dodgy but it makes far more sense for boons to be neurological, or at least something other than stormin' cloth. That would be beyond weird to me, and realmatically inexplicable as a magic system. 

[aemetha]

^^ Exactly, the passage describes the outcome of a boon. "Got a heap of good cloth; sold to keep us from staving during the lurnip famine a few decades ago.". It doesn't say what was asked for, nor does it say if the boon relates to the magical manifestation of cloth, the means to acquire cloth or the means to sell cloth for a good price. It makes far more sense given what we've seen for the boon to be a neurological effect that resulted in the desired outcome than the spontaneous manifestation of cloth.

[discorat]

On 8/4/2017 at 9:28 PM, maxal said:

 

a massive spoiler with respect to Renarin

 

ah what the hell, ive reread these books three times already but i bet im still gonna rust my pants when this is revealed

 

edit: didnt know about the curse filters.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Discofrish

[Frostlander]

I'd look for places where characters cut each other off or stop listening to each other, and the partial information we receive may actually reinforce mistaken assumptions. Shallan and Pattern have a couple, but Jasnah and Wit's conversation at the end of WoR is one of my favorites, as it leaves a whole mess of things open about Voidbringers. It took a couple reads for me to realize that we maybe learned less than nothing in that exchange.

Quote

“I don’t have time for you. A storm is coming, a terrible storm. It will bring the Voidbringers to—”

“Already here.”

“Damnation. We need to find Urithiru and—”

“Already found.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1079). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

I imagine there are a lot more hidden in the books.

[A_Hux_Table]

@Calderis

 

On 09/08/2017 at 10:03 PM, Calderis said:

Outside of the those heavily dedicated to Brandon's work, and we're the minority of his readers, how many people do you think actually Know that Renarin is "very slightly autistic?" 

Probably only the people who are also slightly autistic or have family/friends who are  though that may well be more than we might assume, very slightly autistic people (me included) may well have books of this type as a slight obsession 

Edited August 21, 2017 by A_Hux_Table
tagging user

[Necessary Eagle]

Be hilarious if Oathbringer comes out and it turns out Brandon and Argent were just trolling you.

EDIT: And somehow I didn't notice this thread was more than one page? That was in response to page one where people were talking about Argent's Sooper Sekrit Renarin Knowledge.

Edited August 24, 2017 by Necessary Eagle

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Be hilarious if Oathbringer comes out and it turns out Brandon and Argent were just trolling you.

EDIT: And somehow I didn't notice this thread was more than one page? That was in response to page one where people were talking about Argent's Sooper Sekrit Renarin Knowledge.

Q&A doesn't show the multiple pages outside the thread. I don't think it's actually intended for discussion. 

We can't be bound by simple guidelines here apparently. 

[Steeldancer]

My gosh. I have looked everywhere for chana. EVERYWHERE. 

I think that she might be one of Adolins old girlfriends. 

[FiveLate]

15 hours ago, Flash said:

My gosh. I have looked everywhere for chana. EVERYWHERE. 

I think that she might be one of Adolins old girlfriends. 

I just started a reread with a focus to find her.....it is driving me nuts.

[+robardin]

On 8/9/2017 at 10:55 AM, Argent said:

Oh, the beard strokage is real. I'll say that The Page does not have Renarin's name on it in my US hardcover, how's that for a hint?

This being said, I don't think you can reasonably deduce it. Nothing on that page points to Renarin, so for all you know, it might be something in Rysn's interlude that's the reveal (it's not). So while you can guess, it will be just that - a guess.

I'm late to this Easter Egg hunt, but game. 

Just to clarify, is this so-called blatant hint about the nature of Renarin's foretelling, or about his Surgebinding?

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, robardin said:

I'm late to this Easter Egg hunt, but game. 

Just to clarify, is this so-called blatant hint about the nature of Renarin's foretelling, or about his Surgebinding?

All we've been told is that it's about Renarin, but doesn't mention Renarin by name. 

There's not a lot to go on. It's blatant remember? 

[WhiteLeeopard]

From what I understood from Argent it doesn't even refer to Renarin, just something random, which applies to Renarin but you can't see it if you aren't looking for it ^^. Like the ardents measuring the spren could be the hint for all we know. 

[Argent]

17 hours ago, robardin said:

Just to clarify, is this so-called blatant hint about the nature of Renarin's foretelling, or about his Surgebinding?

It's Brandon who feels he's dropped "blatant" hints about Renarin's character arc. I find them blatant only in retrospect. 

8 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

From what I understood from Argent it doesn't even refer to Renarin, just something random, which applies to Renarin but you can't see it if you aren't looking for it ^^. Like the ardents measuring the spren could be the hint for all we know. 

All I said is that The Page doesn't have Renarin's name on it. It could still say something like "Dalinar's younger son"  For example.

[WhiteLeeopard]

42 minutes ago, Argent said:

All I said is that The Page doesn't have Renarin's name on it. It could still say something like "Dalinar's younger son"  For example

You should be proud Argent, here we all are, splitting appart your words like the most difficult WoB ever . So...the first to crack the WoA (Word of Argent) come here and share it with the class. 

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

You should be proud Argent, here we all are, splitting appart your words like the most difficult WoB ever . So...the first to crack the WoA (Word of Argent) come here and share it with the class. 

I'm gonna give this a shot some time this weekend, but I'll be honest: my go-to move is going to be to PM Argent, and if I'm right, to join him in the Fun Bunker.