Stormlight reread - things to look out for

[+Extesian]

This may be a strange Q&A question. I’m about to start my pre-Oathvember re-read of WoK and WoR. My last two were for enjoyment, this one I’ll take a forensic approach to. I’m reasonably full-bottle on general Cosmere lore, realmatics and WoBs so it’s about time I really get down some specific quotes and references from the books themselves.

 

So my question is – any things I should look out for? Any issues people can think of where WoBs are just not sufficient but you think there may be hints in the books I can look out for over the next 2 months? I’m far better at finding specific patterns than noticing them.so throw at me any thoughts. I’m thinking of things like eye-colors (not them, I’ve already done that, but things like that that are very hard to search for, but much easier when you track them as you read).

 

Things on my list so far: trying to identify the remaining Heralds; looking for evidence of the Iriali; looking for evidence of Honor’s perpendicularity; general evidence of potential worldhoppers, particularly kandra or DRAGONS; trying to find any mythology that may have been inspired by Cultivation (other than the Nightwatcher); evidence of any differences in the way different Nahel-bonding spren manifest, behave, self-identify and the way their surgebinders manifest new Oaths (eg Kaladin’s glyph explosions); any evidence at all of the main secret societies that isn’t immediately obvious; evidence of the origin of various ‘dead’ Shardblades; any evidence of cremlings or similar things that could be Aimian; anything that could indicate Rosharan and Cosmere timelines better than we know; and just generally any evidence that matter we consider canon or canon-ish may be mistaken.

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions guys.

[maxal]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm steadily convincing myself that Renarin's Autism is Nightwatcher curse... Autism is a neurological problem after all... 

Someone talk me out of it. 

Huh, you can't become autistic, you are born autistic? It is just how your brain works: it cannot be "cured" nor can it be "inflicted". 

[Calderis]

Just now, maxal said:

Huh, you can't become autistic, you are born autistic? It is just how your brain works: it cannot be "cured" nor can it be "inflicted". 

But it is a neurological development. The brain development is atypical. 

Under normal circumstances, no, you can't "become" Autistic, your brain just develops that way. We have a magic entity that expresses portions of her power through changing the neurological pathways of the brain though. And if Renarin were taken to the Valley as a young child... 

[maxal]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But it is a neurological development. The brain development is atypical. 

Under normal circumstances, no, you can't "become" Autistic, your brain just develops that way. We have a magic entity that expresses portions of her power through changing the neurological pathways of the brain though. And if Renarin were taken to the Valley as a young child... 

No because autism doesn't develop during childhood: it is there at birth. It only becomes apparent when the child age, though the heavier cases can be observed at few months of age. For a lighter touched kid like Renarin, it probably wasn't entirely obvious until 2 years old, but he was autistic since the beginning. It isn't something which suddenly develop into the brains of young kids.

[Calderis]

Just now, maxal said:

No because autism doesn't develop during childhood: it is there at birth. It only becomes apparent when the child age, though the heavier cases can be observed at few months of age. For a lighter touched kid like Renarin, it probably wasn't entirely obvious until 2 years old, but he was autistic since the beginning. It isn't something which suddenly develop into the brains of young kids.

Naturally no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if it were the case he wouldn't have been born with it, and the Nightwatcher slightly changed his neurological makeup. 

She can surgically remove all feeling and memories of Dalinar's wife, but she can't change the development path of Renarin still growing brain? 

Why not? 

[maxal]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Naturally no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if it were the case he wouldn't have been born with it, and the Nightwatcher slightly changed his neurological makeup. 

She can surgically remove all feeling and memories of Dalinar's wife, but she can't change the development path of Renarin still growing brain? 

Why not? 

Because this is actually a quite hot topic of discussion within parenting communities all with people still giving credence to the doctor Wakefield's falsified research. About a decade ago, he tried to prove regular vaccination caused autism into children (his purpose was to sell his own autism-free vaccine or something along those lines, I might have forgotten some of the details). Of course, he chose a sample of kids all already presenting signs of autism which proved his point as those signs became more obvious after said vaccine at 18 months of age. Thing is, autism is usually hard to diagnostic under this age, so huh. he proved nothing. He falsified his research in order to give it the conclusion he wanted. It has since then being completely undone by the scientific community, but the harm was done among parents and it shall never be recovered.

Hence, having Renarin's autism being caused by outside factor, which scientific research as done hordes to prove it can't after doctor Wakefield disastrous article, it is ill-tasted and ill-thought of. Autism is not something you can give to someone, nor you can develop and by inventing a magical twist which defy current medical knowledge just to add drama, Brandon would be making the awkward stance autism not only has a cause, but a cure. It would also open the door for Renarin to "heal" himself... Autism is not a disease, it just is.

So while, it may be within the world of Roshar magic is able to reproduce brain functionality or to alter it to put someone onto the spectrum of autism, it would be terrible for Brandon to use such ploy. It is bad enough he seemed to have done it in Elantris, I sure think his awareness is greater now.

Being autistic is what differentiate Renarin, it makes him different, but not in a negative way. I shall hope to see his character grow and develop his strength not to find out his "self-made plight" is a curse of magic, thus making him a victim is circumstances and not a man having the power to make his own decisions.

[Steeldancer]

I don't think it's out of the question that the nightwatcher might have made Renarin autistic. There is nothing wrong with having magic that already has been shown to change neurology to use it to do that. 

That being said, I don't think it would be sensitive. But I would be happy to see him be cured. It could potentially be cured with our modern understanding of neurology. I'm not a neurologist, but I do have a fair understanding of the brain. Autism is the lack of certain social connections in the brain. If we could create those connections, whether through surgery or other means, I am of the belief that it could be cured. 

Now I'm going to go on a tangent and say I read a medical article this year about a massive discovery made about Alzheimer's, a disease always believed to be incurable. They discovered that the protein build-up might actually be an immune response in the brain! I would bet by the time I finally make it into the field, they'll have an experimental cure of some sort. 

My point is, nothing is incurable. Nothing is unchangable. With the right tools, (genetics), ANYTHING about us can be manipulated. And with Magic in the cosmere, I have no doubt there are all sorts of ways to do stuff. A division surgery? With a progression surge? So I do not consider it out of the question, nor would I, with many autistic friends, consider it insulting if he decided to have Renarin cured for some reason. I also wouldn't care if he never gets cured. I'm happy to let his, and all other Stormlight characters, work out their arcs as Sanderson sees fit. 

 

[Calderis]

@maxal I'm well aware of the damage that that chull Wakefield caused. My mother's side of the family are all avid anti-vaxxers and my son is on the spectrum. I get into arguments about this very topic on at least a weekly basis. 

My son is leaps and bounds ahead of his age group for math and science. He's not 5 yet and he can explain to you how a steam engine functions. 

In other areas he's severely deficient. Empathy is nearly nonexistent. Emotionally and socially he is very far behind his peers. I love him to death and I would never try to change him, but it is definitely trying at times. 

That said, I disagree. I'm not saying there would be anything to heal. I'm implying his development path would have been changed. I don't think that makes him a victim. If people are unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality they shouldn't be reading fantasy. 

 

[Oversleep]

@maxal, so far we know of people with a fraction of Shard's power that could push planets around, tilt its crust, flatten and raise mountains, genetically alter masses of people, create a whole new species, develop microorganisms for a specific task, modificate biosphere to be able to survive in ash-filled atmosphere etc.

...

and it's causing autism that makes you draw the line of "that's impossible"? That Nightwatcher - that seems to be able to do very advanced neurological stuff, like reverting the vision upside down, deleting specific memories, making intelligence random, losing feeling in arms - could not do such a thing?

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@maxal I'm well aware of the damage that that chull Wakefield caused. My mother's side of the family are all avid anti-vaxxers and my son is on the spectrum. I get into arguments about this very topic on at least a weekly basis. 

My son is leaps and bounds ahead of his age group for math and science. He's not 5 yet and he can explain to you how a steam engine functions. 

In other areas he's severely deficient. Empathy is nearly nonexistent. Emotionally and socially he is very far behind his peers. I love him to death and I would never try to change him, but it is definitely trying at times. 

That said, I disagree. I'm not saying there would be anything to heal. I'm implying his development path would have been changed. I don't think that makes him a victim. If people are unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality they shouldn't be reading fantasy. 

I see arguments going down about doctor Wakefield on a regular basis within my Facebook parenting group. It is tiresome and it has been going on for years. Then why, especially if your son is one the spectrum, would you find it acceptable if Renarin's condition was caused by magic? Wouldn't you want your son, as he grows up, to get the opportunity of reading about characters going through hardships which are similar to his? And baring he does find such character within literature, how would he feel if said character's distinction, the very same thing your son can potentially relate to, turns out being a consequences of magic? Wouldn't it accentuate the feeling is difference and incomprehension young autistic individuals potentially deal with on a daily basis?

My point is it would be insensitive for Brandon to suddenly decide Renarin's autism, because he did confirm the character was autistic (I would think differently if the character wasn't canonically autistic, just slightly different or if it was mentioned how he changed, sometimes as a child), happened out of abnormal conditions and may thus disappear. The one interesting aspect of disabled characters is to see them succeed despite having a handicap, IMO. Making it a consequence of a visit to the Nightwatcher is, IMHO, reduces the impact of Renarin's entire story arc. Had Brandon not explicitly state Renarin was autistic, then yeah, he could have used the ploy, but he made it important to the character. Why take it away? 

And yes, if Renarin's major source of conflict turns out being artificially caused by some unknown magic, it does cheapen his character and it does make him a victim whereas now, the way I read him, he has a choice: the choice to stop seeing his differences as a handicap and to start playing his strengths as opposed to keep on seeing them as a curse and, oh yeah, turns out it was a curse... Also, since this "curse" happened to have a name, within real-life, and happened to be something very real, I find it really distasteful to link it to magic and more importantly to refer to it as... a curse as this is how consequences to visits to the Nightwatcher are being referenced to in-world, as curses and boons, but often curses. Autistic communities have worked very hard to make "normal people" stop seeing autism as a disease, but a difference. Why remove it? Why make it a consequence of magic? 

Fantasy might be fantasy, but when it chooses to employ real-world afflictions such as autism, depression, PTSD, then they tend to work better when the authors actually try to write it convincingly. Brandon has made research to write Renarin, he has talked to real-life adult autistic individuals in order to add realism within the character. I would, for one, be unsatisfied if he were to decide Renarin's differences are the product of a boon/curse to the Nightwatcher despite having been identified as the same as real-world autism.

22 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

and it's causing autism that makes you draw the line of "that's impossible"? That Nightwatcher - that seems to be able to do very advanced neurological stuff, like reverting the vision upside down, deleting specific memories, making intelligence random, losing feeling in arms - could not do such a thing?

Because it is cheap to write in magic which causes autism within people when the real-world is currently dealing with people trying to sell them our modern-day life is somehow causing it. It is a serious lack of sensitivity towards the autistic community to first write in a character the author has identified as autistic and then make it a consequence of magic, something which was caused, generated and not something which is.

Edited August 9, 2017 by maxal

[Oversleep]

17 minutes ago, maxal said:

Because it is cheap to write in magic which causes autism within people when the real-world is currently dealing with people trying to sell them our modern-day life is somehow causing it. It is a serious lack of sensitivity towards the autistic community to first write in a character the author has identified as autistic and then make it a consequence of magic, something which was caused, generated and not something which is.

Now you're discussing out-world reasons. I'm just pointing out it could probably be possible for Nightwatcher to do; I'm not saying whether Brandon would or would not go this path.

[Oversleep]

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

That doesn't work within my mind: in-world magic cannot alter fundamental aspects of a character such as skin color

cough Listener forms, probably Returned shapeshifting cough

23 minutes ago, maxal said:

hair color

cough Royal Locks cough

21 minutes ago, maxal said:

how your brain is working

cough mentioned Nightwatcher curses, some Feruchemical powers, burning atium, Hemalurgy cough

[Calderis]

You asked and I'll answer. Obviously this is a very personal topic to me. I'll keep this as civil as I can, and this is probably going to be a long post. 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Then why, especially if your son is one the spectrum, would you find it acceptable if Renarin's condition was caused by magic? Wouldn't you want your son, as he grows up, to get the opportunity of reading about characters going through hardships which are similar to his? And baring he does find such character within literature, how would he feel if said character's distinction, the very same thing your son can potentially relate to, turns out being a consequences of magic? Wouldn't it accentuate the feeling is difference and incomprehension young autistic individuals potentially deal with on a daily basis?

What does the source matter? If he sees a character who has the same issues he does, functioning, and in the role of a hero, why does it matter how he became that way? As long as he reads a character that is accurately portrayed, and can say "he thinks like I do" then it accomplishes the purpose of a relatable character. Furthermore, they never call it "Autism" in world. Outside of the those heavily dedicated to Brandon's work, and we're the minority of his readers, how many people do you think actually Know that Renarin is "very slightly autistic?" 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

And yes, if Renarin's major source of conflict turns out being artificially caused by some unknown magic, it does cheapen his character and it does make him a victim whereas now, the way I read him, he has a choice: the choice to stop seeing his differences as a handicap and to start playing his strengths as opposed to keep on seeing them as a curse and, oh yeah, turns out it was a curse... Also, since this "curse" happened to have a name, within real-life, and happened to be something very real, I find it really distasteful to link it to magic and more importantly to refer to it as... a curse as this is how consequences to visits to the Nightwatcher are being referenced to in-world, as curses and boons, but often curses. Autistic communities have worked very hard to make "normal people" stop seeing autism as a disease, but a difference. Why remove it? Why make it a consequence of magic?

This is where I disagree with you most heavily. As I've stated already the cause doesn't matter, but the fact that it's viewed as a curse? That's Storming accurate. 

Do you know how many times I've been in public with my son, and someone will notice something in one of his outbursts or see him stim with his hands, or roll his head around, and either look at him with pity, or have the audacity to come up to me and say "I'm so sorry." take a guess. It's higher. 

It is viewed as a curse. It is viewed as an insurmountable disease that he'll never be able to get past. 

Sensitivity can be as harmful as outright offensiveness. I'd much rather an honest portrayal of a world in which everyone thinks Renarin is "afflicted" by a "curse" and he overcomes that and makes it his own, rather than some simple fantasy land in which it's brushed aside. 

I'd much rather an honest acknowledgement that people are horrible, and they'll tell you that being different is a curse, and you should be pitied, because it's the way people actually work.

My son is young enough he hasn't noticed these things yet, but he will. He'll see the way people treat him and his parents, and to omit that portion from the story is dishonest in itself. A world where people see something different and attribute negative connotations to it is accurate because, even when they don't intend it, people are cruel. 

So let it be his "curse" and let him embrace it and prove everyone wrong. That's far more powerful to me, because it's far more true to life. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Calderis

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Extesian said:

 

Thanks for the necessary derailment. 

[+Extesian]

37 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Thanks for the necessary derailment. 

Tbh I didn't see there was a third page posted while I was asleep 

All I'll say is I understand Maxal's out-of-world reasons why Brandon may not do that. But that's not because there's anything wrong with having magic in a fictional world do things that are purely genetic IRL. It's because of a problem IRL that shouldn't exist (imo).

In-world, of COURSE it's realmatically plausible for it to happen and probably consistent with the Old Magic. 

I would actually prefer if the autism was the gift. That would be a Brandon thing to do, to show something prior irl think of as a curse and actually show how, with the right support, the differently abled can flourish and make the best of their unusual circumstances. 

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

I would actually prefer if the autism was the gift. That would be a Brandon thing to do, to show something prior irl think of as a curse and actually show how, with the right support, the differently abled can flourish and make the best of their unusual circumstances. 

I could get behind this. 

My thought process was more along the lines that the terms "boon" and "curse" are things people have attributed to the old magic, and they aren't actually separate from her perspective. 

The curses are all neurological in nature. I like the play that these neurological changes are viewed as "curses" by the people, when from the Nightwatcher's perspective they're all a part of her gifts. 

[Oversleep]

39 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My thought process was more along the lines that the terms "boon" and "curse" are things people have attributed to the old magic, and they aren't actually separate from her perspective. 

The curses are all neurological in nature. I like the play that these neurological changes are viewed as "curses" by the people, when from the Nightwatcher's perspective they're all a part of her gifts. 

Eh, of the few we know both the gift and the curse they seem to not be related in any way.

[Calderis]

17 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Eh, of the few we know both the gift and the curse they seem to not be related in any way.

Do we actually know more than one boon? And that one secondhand? 

(discounting Taravangian here, because his are pretty intertwined) 

[+Extesian]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Do we actually know more than one boon? And that one secondhand? 

(discounting Taravangian here, because his are pretty intertwined) 

We know Lift's request if not her boon for sure (though surely metabolising food into stormlight). Some dude mentioned in an interlude got a bunch of cloth (curse was seeing upside down). That one always troubled me. I certainly don't discount Taravangian though, I think his boon is the clearest of all. Intertwined with the curse or not.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

Some dude mentioned in an interlude got a bunch of cloth (curse was seeing upside down).

That's the one I was talking about. It's the Av and Baxil interlude. It was his Father's boon and curse, so we only have a second hand account. 

[Steeldancer]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's the one I was talking about. It's the Av and Baxil interlude. It was his Father's boon and curse, so we only have a second hand account. 

Maybe the nightwatcher summoned a merchant with a bunch of cloth to her and gave it to the guy

[Oversleep]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Do we actually know more than one boon? And that one secondhand?

Nope. I misremembered. Av's father boon was a heap of good cloth which he sold to feed his family; his curse was seeing world upside down.

We don't know what is Taravangian's or Dalinar's boon and curse; we know what Taravangian asked for, we know his intelligence and inversely proportional empathy vary from day to day; we know Dalinar does not remember his wife.

And that is all.

[+Extesian]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's the one I was talking about. It's the Av and Baxil interlude. It was his Father's boon and curse, so we only have a second hand account. 

Heh really? I see that as the least likely boon that we ‘know’. I don’t believe for a second that the dude’s boon was a physical thing, I think he got cloth through some neurological boon that he didn’t tell anyone about. I think Taravangian’s is by far the clearest, the boon is the ability to have semi-deific levels of intelligence sometimes (and I strongly believe the curse is the accompanying emotional intensity during the stupider days; but at least I think the boon is very clear). With Lift as well I think the boon is very, very clear. She has probably the single biggest boon of any individual on Roshar. The curse is the one I’m unsure of there. And while her boon doesn’t make sense, we know that she asked to not change while the world does, and that the Nightwatcher didn’t know how to deal with such a request, so gave her something equally strange. To me that is so clearly metabolizing food into stormlight. But we can do something we seldom do – agree to disagree  and of course I acknowledge I may be wrong, but I have little doubt in my own head-canon about T and L, and much more doubt about Mr Cloth.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

...

This may be a personal topic to me as well, but for different reasons, so sorry if I'll answer but I'll put it in spoilers to avoid further derailments.

Spoiler

 

You ask if the source matters, my answer is it would matter to me if I were on the spectrum. If I had a disability or a handicap which would impact my daily life then yes, seeing a character going through the same motion would definitely help and yes, finding out this one thing I cannot control, this one thing which has made my personal life hard is somehow caused by an outside source as opposed to merely be part of who I am would really hinder it. 

My children aren't on the spectrum, but I have suspected my sibling might be. Our story however happened within years where getting a diagnostic wasn't an easy thing, it happened before there was any level of awareness towards autism or related disabilities, it happened within years where being autistic was closely linked to Rain Man. Needless to say this was just a movie, a popular movie, but it shaped many individual within those generations idea of what autism is (it definitely negatively impacted my father). It made people forget it is a spectrum. So yes, I do suspect my sibling might, just might have been onto the spectrum. Honestly, I will never know, but prior to having kids, this is something I looked into very closely. I have dropped hints here and there as to how our life have been. I'll give you the short story: it wasn't pretty.

This being said, one thing which definitely helped my sibling is finding out her issues, all of her issues, might have been caused by some genetic. Knowing it wasn't her fault, somehow, it was something she was born with, it was part of herself definitely helped her progress along side her issues and progressed towards being an independent grown-up. So see, when I look at my sibling, and then I look at Renarin, all sort of conflicting feelings are created, but one thing I am convinced of, is accepting your difference does wonders into helping someone move forward. 

Renarin is autistic. Whereas or not readers realized it while reading the book is not really relevant: the author confirmed Renarin was autistic. I never caught in while reading the book either (but I wasn't paying attention to his character either). The author however clearly, explicitly used an in-world affliction to describe his character. It is thus, to me, if he makes this affliction, which countless of people are born with, caused by magic, worst if he makes it something Renarin can heal, treating it as a curse or a disease, then it does make it worst. From my perspective, if I were autistic, the last I'd want is the character I can actually relate too turn out being "cursed" and, oh surprise, this "curse" turns out being autism. 

It may be to close relatives, autism looks like it is a "curse", especially to parents. I understand this, trust me, I really do. I sure thought my sibling was a "curse" (and I likely used much worst words to refer to it) and, even to this day, I can't find what positive lesson I have learned through the ordeal, but I still keep on thinking referring to it as a curse is not accurate. Well, maybe from my perspective, but what about hers (honestly who cares about my perspective, I am not the one with the issues)?

 

So sorry, we might have to agree to disagree, but this is something I strongly feel about. I am honestly sincerely surprised to find so much support from readers wanting Renarin's issues to have been magically caused. I really would prefer if magic had nothing to do with it.

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

I would actually prefer if the autism was the gift. That would be a Brandon thing to do, to show something prior irl think of as a curse and actually show how, with the right support, the differently abled can flourish and make the best of their unusual circumstances. 

I personally do not want Renarin's condition to be caused by an in-world magic, but I would love if his handicap were to become his strength.

[+Extesian]

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

I personally do not want Renarin's condition to be caused by an in-world magic, but I would love if his handicap were to become his strength.

Completely agree Maxal. I'm only saying that IF THE Nightwatcher is involved (and I don't think she is) I hope the twist is that the autism is the boon. 

[maxal]

11 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Completely agree Maxal. I'm only saying that IF THE Nightwatcher is involved (and I don't think she is) I hope the twist is that the autism is the boon. 

I agree that IF THE Nightwatcher is involved (which I would prefer wasn't), then I would make it better if autism is the boon and not the curse.