Long Game 35: L35 Miserables

[Haelbarde he/him]

Just popping in to say I have seen the request for a hammer, and that I'm taking it under consideration, and will try and give a response tomorrow once I've slept, woken, and had time to think.

[Arraenae]

I get that Wilson said that Neutrals should be able to walk on the line between village and elim, but this is definitely picking one side over the other. Stink.

I'm pretty sure that Stink would have revealed this out of spite before he died, or that the elims already know. I'm not giving him the satisfaction of a pre-death infodump. I am the RINGLEADER, ASSASSIN OF THE NIGHT, CONFIRMED VILLAGE ROLE. 

Last night, I put a kill order on Straw. As you can see, it did not go through. Several players knew this, but I know Stink did not hear it from me.

[DeTess she/her]

<sarcasm> So wait, when I suggest we lynch a known criminal (and one that has actually been convicted of a crime at that) it's all "No Rand, don't do that", "You're being suspicious Rand", "You're alienating the Neutrals Rand", "Rand are you an elim". But when Aman suggests to do so it's all "let's get this bandwagon rolling people!" </sarcasm>

So first of all, I'm fine with lynching STINK for the reason that he's now clearly sabotaging the village past what is acceptable for someone staying merely Neutral.

However, I do see some other reasons coming for lynching STINK that I don't agree with. Specifically, complaints about his play-style shouldn't be addressed in this way, I think. That's what the board moderators are for, if I'm not mistaken.

I also don't think the 'blackmail' is something to be angry about out of game, unless he worded or approached it in a particularly unfriendly way, as leveraging information to your advantage is what this game is about. However, this is a completely valid reason to try to lynch him.

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

I get that Wilson said that Neutrals should be able to walk on the line between village and elim, but this is definitely picking one side over the other. Stink.

I'm pretty sure that Stink would have revealed this out of spite before he died, or that the elims already know. I'm not giving him the satisfaction of a pre-death infodump. I am the RINGLEADER, ASSASSIN OF THE NIGHT, CONFIRMED VILLAGE ROLE. 

Last night, I put a kill order on Straw. As you can see, it did not go through. Several players knew this, but I know Stink did not hear it from me.

Enjolras confirmed. 

[little wilson she/her]

Re: neutrals not being offended

We're not. At least, I'm not. This is what I was saying about walking the line. He already threatened a village-only role with something he couldn't deliver (all the neutrals never would've ganged up on Aman), and he was very "convinced" that Yitzi was village (I'd bet Stink was actually the first neutral contacted by the elims and knew Yitzi was actually evil), and now this. It doesn't really feel like he's playing both sides here. Even organizing Tineyes could easily be to further help and communicate.

I do think it's sad it came to this.

Also... This may be foolish, but Stink would probably reveal it anyway. I am Javert, the Parole Officer.

Stink

[Stick. she/her]

And all this time I was thinking Rand was the Ringleader 

I voted on stink so that the next steel vial doesn't get stolen. I know that the thief needs all four vials to be of different metals, but if he's made a deal with the elims then I dunno

[Arinian]

I don't understand why we lynching Stink? It's a waste, he is harmless. Atleast for ringleader, after what he done. Cause:

Quote

Thief - You never know your luck when there's a free-for-all. Here a little tip, there a little touch. Most of them are goners, so they won't miss much! You've not come to the barricade for glory. It's a world where the dogs eat the dogs, you're out to get a profit, and it's easy to steal from a corpse.

• You win if you survive and stole at least 4 unique metals over the course of the game.
• Each night cycle, you may target a player and attempt to steal something from them. If they have an allomantic metal, you will steal one charge from them. You can only steal from a player once.

He can't steal anymore from ringleader.

I understand this hammer only as punishment for his behavior(for his usual behavior). I'm not sure if there so big need in it, but okay "Shrug". Stink

[Stick. she/her]

 

Just now, Arinian said:

He can't steal anymore from ringleader.

*faceplam 

Right

[DeTess she/her]

2 minutes ago, Arinian said:

I don't understand why we lynching Stink? It's a waste, he is harmless. Atleast for ringleader, after what he done. Cause:

Given that he also seems to have a lot of information lying around and seems to be actively aiding the elims far more than expected, I'd say he's not harmless. However, you do make a good point that he can't actively steal from the coinshot again.

Still, he might target other villagers as well, which might be just as harmful. I'm up for lynching someone else, but I'm also fine with hammering STINK here.

[Arraenae]

20 minutes ago, randuir said:

<sarcasm> So wait, when I suggest we lynch a known criminal (and one that has actually been convicted of a crime at that) it's all "No Rand, don't do that", "You're being suspicious Rand", "You're alienating the Neutrals Rand", "Rand are you an elim". But when Aman suggests to do so it's all "let's get this bandwagon rolling people!" </sarcasm>

So first of all, I'm fine with lynching STINK for the reason that he's now clearly sabotaging the village past what is acceptable for someone staying merely Neutral.

However, I do see some other reasons coming for lynching STINK that I don't agree with. Specifically, complaints about his play-style shouldn't be addressed in this way, I think. That's what the board moderators are for, if I'm not mistaken.

I also don't think the 'blackmail' is something to be angry about out of game, unless he worded or approached it in a particularly unfriendly way, as leveraging information to your advantage is what this game is about. However, this is a completely valid reason to try to lynch him.

Rand, in this case, there is ample reason to suspect that the Neutral in question is blatently anti-village/pro-elim. As of D1, Joe hadn't actively aided the elims/hurt the village.

Also, Stink is a criminal. He's a thief that steals valuable vials of metal for the heck of it. Val-Jean got thrown in prison for stealing a slice of bread so he wouldn't die of startvation. So whatever Joe has done, Stink has done worse. And at least Joe reformed as an Honest man.

Edited July 2, 2017 by Arraenae
Wordslip

[DeTess she/her]

2 minutes ago, Arraenae said:

Rand, in this case, there is ample reason to suspect that the Neutral in question is blatently anti-village/pro-elim. As of D1, Joe hadn't actively aided the elims/hurt the village.

Also, Stink is a criminal. He's a thief that steals valuable vials of metal for the heck of it. Val-Jean got thrown in prison for stealing a slice of bread so he wouldn't die of startvation. So whatever Joe has done, Stink has done worse. And at least Joe reformed as an Honest man.

I know, Arraenae. There's a reason I included sarcasm tags  .

[Stick. she/her]

Makes me wonder of how set he was at lynching straw early on...

Could be that he contacted the elims after?

[asterion137 he/him]

Stink just cost the town our only guaranteed kill of the game. @STINK why? To spite the village?

 

5 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

Makes me wonder of how set he was at lynching straw early on...

Could be that he contacted the elims after?

It's possible STINK didn't know the ringleader was going to kill Straw and just stole because there was talk about ringleader using his power tonight in thread. It's also possible that STINK doesnt know the whole elim team or wasnt in collusion with them D1

[Orlok Tsubodai]

I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a moment, and will suggest that there exists a possibility that Stink didn't do this to spite the village. Stink stole from me on Night One, which made tactical sense. As the Pauper Noble, I was guaranteed to have a metal. I suspect that Stink stole from the Ringleader last night based on a similar reasoning - rather than blindly fishing for metal, he chose to take guaranteed metal, in order to fulfil his win condition.

Now, whilst this does favour one side over another, I don't think it was necessarily done in order to favour a side. He was playing to his win condition, and I'm not sure that alone merits a lynch, particularly when he can't steal from the Ringleader again.

Now, I would like to make very clear that I most certainly do not condone his actions threatening Aman for information. I've always taken the view that directing other players, or acting otherwise as a dictator, reduces the enjoyment players get from the game, and that maximising enjoyment for players should be our aspiration, rather than playing optimally to win.

I think we can all agree to censure Stink for threatening players, but it's worth considering whether the act of threatening players, if we consider the stealing to be playing to his win condition, justifies spending a lynch on him. It might well do, but we should discuss it on that issue, and not necessarily on the grounds of stealing a vial.

[DeTess she/her]

4 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a moment, and will suggest that there exists a possibility that Stink didn't do this to spite the village. Stink stole from me on Night One, which made tactical sense. As the Pauper Noble, I was guaranteed to have a metal. I suspect that Stink stole from the Ringleader last night based on a similar reasoning - rather than blindly fishing for metal, he chose to take guaranteed metal, in order to fulfil his win condition.

Now, whilst this does favour one side over another, I don't think it was necessarily done in order to favour a side. He was playing to his win condition, and I'm not sure that alone merits a lynch, particularly when he can't steal from the Ringleader again.

Now, I would like to make very clear that I most certainly do not condone his actions threatening Aman for information. I've always taken the view that directing other players, or acting otherwise as a dictator, reduces the enjoyment players get from the game, and that maximising enjoyment for players should be our aspiration, rather than playing optimally to win.

I think we can all agree to censure Stink for threatening players, but it's worth considering whether the act of threatening players, if we consider the stealing to be playing to his win condition, justifies spending a lynch on him. It might well do, but we should discuss it on that issue, and not necessarily on the grounds of stealing a vial.

I'd be inclined to agree with your line of reasoning, if Steel had been the only other allomancer STINK knew about. However, we know that STINK knew of a tin-eye at the very least, and Asterion has claimed Seeker. Both these would have been just as valid for his win-condition as steeling the steel-vial, and would be far less disrupting to the village. To fill out the fourth requried metal, he could have contacted the elims and have tried to make some deal there, or could have tried the same with the village. Again, no need to go after the steel-vial.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

Wow. It seems like my number one eliminator read is a confirmed villager... I guess I have to say that I don't really support this wagon on STINK. Yeah, threatening players with blackmail basically isn't a playstyle that I endorse. However, the wagon on him seems very vengeful and also not in the spirit of the game either.

I also doubt that Stink would have blocked the kill if he knew it was targeting Straw.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Okay, that was a jerky move on STINK's part. I don't think there's really anyone else that we need to lynch, and I agree that it would be best to lynch him, because if he's blackmailing players like that, that is NOT okay. Plus, he'd probably steal some other metals that the village could really use, even if he doesn't steal steel (heh) again. But still, that was uncalled for, especially since he knew of other allomancers (apparently).

Anyway, from what I've heard, it sounds like STINK would probably reveal my role anyway, so I'll do it myself. I'm a tineye. I burned tin for the first night and now I have two charges left. I didn't burn tin for last night, so that means there's at least one other tineye out there. 

Unless another tineye out there has more charges than I do (and wants to come out about it, which is unlikely), I'm planning on on burning tin for tonight. 

[BrightnessRadiant she/her]

21 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

Wow. It seems like my number one eliminator read is a confirmed villager... I guess I have to say that I don't really support this wagon on STINK. Yeah, threatening players with blackmail basically isn't a playstyle that I endorse. However, the wagon on him seems very vengeful and also not in the spirit of the game either.

I also doubt that Stink would have blocked the kill if he knew it was targeting Straw.

Aman clearly stated in the thread last night that the ringleader was attacking Straw...

1 hour ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

I'm going to play the devil's advocate for a moment, and will suggest that there exists a possibility that Stink didn't do this to spite the village. Stink stole from me on Night One, which made tactical sense. As the Pauper Noble, I was guaranteed to have a metal. I suspect that Stink stole from the Ringleader last night based on a similar reasoning - rather than blindly fishing for metal, he chose to take guaranteed metal, in order to fulfil his win condition.

Now, whilst this does favour one side over another, I don't think it was necessarily done in order to favour a side. He was playing to his win condition, and I'm not sure that alone merits a lynch, particularly when he can't steal from the Ringleader again.

Now, I would like to make very clear that I most certainly do not condone his actions threatening Aman for information. I've always taken the view that directing other players, or acting otherwise as a dictator, reduces the enjoyment players get from the game, and that maximising enjoyment for players should be our aspiration, rather than playing optimally to win.

I think we can all agree to censure Stink for threatening players, but it's worth considering whether the act of threatening players, if we consider the stealing to be playing to his win condition, justifies spending a lynch on him. It might well do, but we should discuss it on that issue, and not necessarily on the grounds of stealing a vial.

Well he did know of several other allomancers and I know that for a fact cuz I tried to make a deal with him for the village...

[Araris Valerian he/him]

I think Aman didn't post that until the tail end of the cycle though. I wasn't awake to see it.

[BrightnessRadiant she/her]

2 minutes ago, Araris Valerian said:

I think Aman didn't post that until the tail end of the cycle though. I wasn't awake to see it.

That's true but he knew the ringleader had a vial and went for it which is clearly not a pro-village move and barely a neutral one since it hurt the village so much. He could've easily taken a different vial of his choice since he got so many people to role claim early on.

[Steeldancer he/him]

2 hours ago, little wilson said:

Re: neutrals not being offended

We're not. At least, I'm not. This is what I was saying about walking the line. He already threatened a village-only role with something he couldn't deliver (all the neutrals never would've ganged up on Aman), and he was very "convinced" that Yitzi was village (I'd bet Stink was actually the first neutral contacted by the elims and knew Yitzi was actually evil), and now this. It doesn't really feel like he's playing both sides here. Even organizing Tineyes could easily be to further help and communicate.

I do think it's sad it came to this.

Also... This may be foolish, but Stink would probably reveal it anyway. I am Javert, the Parole Officer.

Stink

I want stars parody. Please????

[Amanuensis he/him]

I didn't realize that he can't steal from the same player twice, which is a very important factoid. I was mostly afraid of him just shutting the Ringleader down completely if we didn't remove him now.

I wish this info came forward before two people roleclaimed but oh well. I can confirm both Rae and Wilson's statements.

I want to say that the fallout of this alone could be enough to make Stink realize how he interacted with me this game was just not cool. Although Rand has it right that he had so many options to choose from, and that from that I can infer he did it out of spite towards me, nothing about doing this helps the game or our community progress.

Either way, the Ringleader and I are doomed.

[Stick. she/her]

Okay I've thought some about this, and wasting a day doesn't seem like the best option. I think we may have overreacted a bit. Plus, now that he can't steal from the Ringleader, I think we're fine, mostly. Like, he's going to steal more vials, of course, but that his win condition so...I doubt he knows who all the elims are, as Aster suggested [I, at least, wouldn't reveal my whole team's identities to a neutral when making a deal with them] so I think it's unlikely that he'll only steal from villagers now. I don't know how many of us role-claimed to him, [I didn't] but if we're worried about him giving all the info to the elims later, as Rand said, he might as well say it all here in the thread. Three people already public-roleclaimed because of that....I'm not sure if it's worth lynching him. What else could he do to help the elims? [This isnt a rhetorical quesion, btw]. If most of us agree on this, I could remove my vote and place it on someone else [like Straw]. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

I advocate leaving Stink alone, even if I started this. Him being unable to steal the same metal twice changes a lot.

[Straw he/him]

*Sigh* Let's play good news, bad news!

Good news: I didn't die! Yay!

Bad news: The village's only kill was wasted.

Good news: At least STINK probably had some fun.

Bad news: STINK was anti-villager.

Good news: STINK is getting lynched!

Bad news: He's a neutral, not an Eliminator.