SA5 Chapters 7 8 9

[teknopathetic he/him]

24 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We have a viewpoint from Balat when Shallan is busy in Kharbranth, and Kaladin killed Helaran in Alethkar.

A fully sentient illusion might be capable of having a POV. Veil and Radiant have had POVs sort of. So if we give Radiant an illusion body, could she have her own POVs? 
 

And maybe Helleran being an illusion would explain why he was a skybreaker without a spren? It’s always been rather off that Heleran was out with a dead blade. Maybe a spren wouldn’t bond him. 

Edited August 30, 2024 by teknopathetic

[LewsTherinTelescope]

10 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

A fully sentient illusion might be capable of having a POV. Veil and Radiant have had POVs sort of. So if we give Radiant an illusion body, could she have her own POVs? 
 

And maybe Helleran being an illusion would explain why he was a skybreaker without a spren? 

How would they all still be running when Shallan is all the way in Kharbranth, and does not have her Lightweaving back yet? And Radiant + Veil are part of Shallan's mind, not fully separate illusions.

Why does that need explaining? We see others.

[teknopathetic he/him]

3 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

How would they all still be running when Shallan is all the way in Kharbranth, and does not have her Lightweaving back yet? And Radiant + Veil are part of Shallan's mind, not fully separate illusions.

Why does that need explaining? We see others.

I’m not saying it is likely. I’ve just always found the brothers a bit off. 

[Windrunner22]

11 hours ago, Wanguu said:

Syl was also present on this scene and commented on the spren. Don't the spren notice when one is corrupted? Or was that just Ivory and Jasnah who noticed? I suppose it did take a while for them to know, but wasn't that because there were no other mistspren as reference?

I agree with you and robardin that Syl not noticing any difference in Lusintia is the biggest hole in the theory so far. I can’t think of a convincing explanation. 
 

That said, I would counter with the information we know is true. Ch.5 at least confirms that Lusintia has traveled to bond Dabbid independently. In ch.5 we also learn from Notum that the journey is actually dangerous. Spren aren’t quite themselves when they get to the Physical realm. They risk getting lost in addition to the threat posed by Odium’s forces. We also know that Lusintia was Shallan’s honorspren guide in Lasting Integrity during ROW. In ROW ch.87 she is the honorspren who Shallan tricks into giving her stormlight by faking an injury. She is unfamiliar with humans which allows Shallan to manipulate her. Perhaps Lusintia has never bonded a human before, and this explains why she is ignorant of humans. So, what could motivate Lusintia to bond a human (maybe for the first time), and make a long perilous journey all alone? Did she simply change her mind and risk it by herself? Or has she been sent on a mission by Sja-Anat after she was Enlightened/Corrupted? Perhaps with corrupted/enlighted windspren to guide her safely?
 

The more I think about it the more I think Dabbid would fit into the Sja-Anat crew of Radiants with Renarin and Rlain. They’re so uniquely distinct. An Alethi who is no warrior, a listener among humans, and a person who is silent while others speak. All of them so overlooked by their peers and society at large. People underestimate them. Perhaps this is how Sja-Anat feels too? She is the Unmade who is different, underestimated, and overlooked by Odium?

Edited August 30, 2024 by Windrunner22
Fixed some Dabbid info

[Rorzikel]

I don't think Helaran was a solid lightweaving, but he might as well have been with how that plot thread of Kaladin killing Shallan's brother and her finding out about it went nowhere, lol.

[drunkenbotanist]

On 8/26/2024 at 3:38 PM, listerfeend said:

I feel like "too clean" is a gross oversimplification of all of the things that would have to be true to make this work. 

First, you need to have a traumatic enough childhood experience to develop magic DID. Then, you also have to bond not one, but two Cryptics, and one of them needs to be "mostly dead" (to steal a phrase from Miracle Max). 

Brandon being the author who feels like limitations make magic better, I'm certain that this can't be a thing that she'd be able to just do willy nilly. She knows Drehy, they've been around each other before. Drawing out a Connection to someone that she is familiar with is probably very doable. Drawing out a Connection to a person she's never met, and has no idea who it could be? That probably wouldn't work. That would be the case of trying to use a keyed metal mind.

She has to actually know who she's trying to be and be able to draw forth that Fortune Connection somehow.

I think it also has to do with the fact that the stormlight was lashed to her. Drehy infused her, and maybe this made it easier for her to more or less "command -break" it

[+Bzhydack he/him]

4 hours ago, Windrunner22 said:

Or has she been sent on a mission by Sja-Anat after she was Enlightened/Corrupted? Perhaps with corrupted/enlighted windspren to guide her safely?

This is very unlikely. She is between dozens of Honorspren, every one of them knows her, so someone will notice she was changed. Dont even mention Sibling, who knows everything whats going in the Tower. Sibling is also explanation why she get there so fast - Sibling is literaly giant lighthouse for Spren.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

A fully sentient illusion might be capable of having a POV. Veil and Radiant have had POVs sort of. So if we give Radiant an illusion body, could she have her own POVs? 

I think a fully sapient, autonomous illusion with its own mind would be impossible to make with Illumination. Not to mention they would run out of Stormlight during the Weeping and the illusions would cease to exist. Others like Nale, Mraize or Hoid interacted with them and if Hoid didn't recognize them as illusions while being fully capable of recognizing Shallan through her illusion in OB, then it means they are real.

9 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

And maybe Helleran being an illusion would explain why he was a skybreaker without a spren? It’s always been rather off that Heleran was out with a dead blade. Maybe a spren wouldn’t bond him. 

This is normal. To become a Skybreaker you must first prove yourself to Highspren and get their attention. OB ch 90:

Quote

“Your first training has already been completed,” Ki said. “You traveled with the Skybreakers and joined them in one of their missions. You have been evaluated and deemed worthy of the First Ideal. Speak it. You know the Words.”
[...]
“To progress further among our ranks, and to learn the Lashings, you will need a master to take you as their squire. Then may you speak the Second Ideal. From there, you will need to impress a highspren and form a bond— becoming a full Skybreaker. Today you will take the first of many tests. Though we will evaluate you, remember that the final measure of your success or failure belongs to the highspren. Do you have any questions?”

 

 

9 hours ago, Windrunner22 said:

Perhaps Lusintia has never bonded a human before, and this explains why she is ignorant of humans.

No Honorspren currently alive has ever bonded with anybody before this True Desolation - except for Syl. The ones that were bonded were all killed during the Recreance - except for Syl.

[listerfeend]

On 8/29/2024 at 1:24 AM, Windrunner22 said:

I’m most interested in Shallan as she is seemingly re-swearing an oath with Testament. It’s notable that she is able to give physical form to her lightweaving only after she re-speaks her truth, and I think Brando is giving us a clue about the mechanisms of her double bond with Pattern and Testament. If she is indeed re-speaking a truth to Testament, then it seems that her truths with Testament advance her abilities with the surge of Transformation (Soulcasting/Manifesting), while her truths with Pattern advance her abilities with the surge of Illumination (Lightweaving). This could explain why we’ve seen Shallan become an elite Lightweaver, but she has struggled Soulcasting. 
 

However, I think there is an even bigger hint about Shallan here. She is talking with Radiant when she re-speaks her truth to Testament. Radiant tells her to say the words where if Kaladin were in a similar situation it would be Syl telling him to say the words, you know the words, etc… It’s almost like Radiant is fulfilling the role of Testament/spren for this truth. We know Shallan is still bonded to Testament as there was not a “clean cut”, for lack of a better word I will say the bond is frayed. I think that Radiant specifically represents the part of Shallan that is still bonded to Testament or the part of her where the bond is the least frayed. This is why Radiant plays a role here for Shallan’s re-sworn truth. This could also be the reason that the Radiant personality remains separate and is not absorbed like Veil. Perhaps if Shallan is able to absorb the Radiant personality it will restore Testament in some way.

Welcome to the Shard! I really like your ideas here! I'm operating under the theory that Veil and Radiant and Formless are all Fortune Connections to versions of Shallan that could have been. Veil is the actual version of Shallan that grew up working for the Ghostbloods, Radiant grew up with her Herald mother, never breaking her Oaths to Testament and learning how to fight and be a Knight, and Formless is the version of Shallan that succumbed to the heartbreaking childhood that Shallan actually had.

Your theory here about Radiant representing the part of Shallan that is still bonded to Testament really fits in with my theory about Radiant. Radiant is guiding Shallan through the Oaths/Truths that Radiant spoke to Testament. So in a way, she does represent that bond, I just don't think that it is an actual manifestation of that bond, but rather....echoes of it. 

I really like your idea about Testament oaths leveling up Shallan's Soulcasting, while Pattern Oaths level up her Illumination, though I'd be curious to know the mechanics of that. It does seem like Shallan should be a lot better at Soulcasting than she is. I'm wondering if all bifurcated Bonds would work similarly, where one Spren in the Bond would start to provide access and efficiency in only one half of the Surges they provide. Which raises even more questions for a bifurcated bond between Spren of different orders. For instance, if someone were to bond both an Honorspren and a Highspren, they both share a single Surge, Gravitation, and then each provide a different secondary. So in that case would the Spren "share" Gravitation? It seems obvious that such a person would get greater abilities in the Gravitation department...perhaps even get resonances on both sides...There are a lot of possibilities with this.

[+robardin he/him]

10 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I’m not saying it is likely. I’ve just always found the brothers a bit off. 

Creating a storyline with no foreshadowing that her entire family are imaginary, using suppressed powers, is kind of ... out there, man!

That's more than halfway to wondering if the big reveal at the end of SA10 will be "Shallan was just daydreaming this whole thing up, there's no such thing as spren!" LOL

In any case we have multiple WoBs assuaging such fears/concerns/ideas some fans have had like this over the years.

Shallan's father and mother that we see in her flashback POVs are indeed her actual father and mother, and given how her father treats her brothers (not to mention Wit/Hoid knows about them and talks about them), we can assume they are her actual brothers.

Quote

Questioner

Is Shallan's mother, the one that she kills, is that her birth mother?

Brandon Sanderson

It is.  Good question. Good question.  You had a theory there that I may have just killed.

Questioner

That's okay!

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

Is Shallan's father her actual father?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah! People asked if her mother were her mother. No one's asked yet if her father were her father... Yes, it was her father. Yes, I will give you that, yes. Her mother and father as presented in the stories were actually her mother and father.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

[Kfish]

To the topic of sigzil, we don't know he broke the bond. His spren could have been killed. 

 

Jasnah specifically mentions that renarins spren looks different and kholinar taught us that they all do when corrupted. I don't think we've seen a corrupted honorspren yet. 

 

As to the spren bonds, the simple answer is the end of the war caused numbers to drop. Armies ramp up during wartime irl all the time. 

[drunkenbotanist]

On 8/27/2024 at 8:44 PM, Grailmoth said:

The way Nomad is regarded in the Sunlit Man by some Scadrians as an "oathed Rosharan" makes me think that they still exist and are fairly well known in the future Cosmere.

Instead they may have gone the way of the kandra. Fled Roshar more or less and are potentially doing vigilante stuff.

[Smye]

15 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

This is very unlikely. She is between dozens of Honorspren, every one of them knows her, so someone will notice she was changed. Dont even mention Sibling, who knows everything whats going in the Tower. Sibling is also explanation why she get there so fast - Sibling is literaly giant lighthouse for Spren.

Another possibility to consider - however unlikely - is that this is not Lusintia at all. Remember when Syl posed as a voidspren? Could we have a voidspren posing as Lusintia? I hate the idea, but am deeply intrigued by it at the same time.

[bmcclure7]

11 hours ago, Smye said:

Another possibility to consider - however unlikely - is that this is not Lusintia at all. Remember when Syl posed as a voidspren? Could we have a voidspren posing as Lusintia? I hate the idea, but am deeply intrigued by it at the same time.

Why did that happen?

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Smye said:

Another possibility to consider - however unlikely - is that this is not Lusintia at all. Remember when Syl posed as a voidspren? Could we have a voidspren posing as Lusintia? I hate the idea, but am deeply intrigued by it at the same time.

Not possible now. Urithiru is fully functional, with all its defenses working at full capacity. If during RoW reversed defenses caused Syl and other spren to be lost and became mindless when separated from their knights, remaining themselves only in the close proximity of their knight, now it would be impossible for any Voidspren to pose as a Honorspren consciously. Not to mention that Voidspren would lack an anchor provided by the Nahel Bond that Radiant spren had during the occupation.

[The Stick]

47 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not possible now. Urithiru is fully functional, with all its defenses working at full capacity. If during RoW reversed defenses caused Syl and other spren to be lost and became mindless when separated from their knights, remaining themselves only in the close proximity of their knight, now it would be impossible for any Voidspren to pose as a Honorspren consciously. Not to mention that Voidspren would lack an anchor provided by the Nahel Bond that Radiant spren had during the occupation.

Based on this, do we think that Urithiru will reject Glys and Renarin because they are Enlightened. In my opinion, there is enough corruption there the tower will at least try to reject them, especially since the Sibling is quite judgemental and picky.

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

Based on this, do we think that Urithiru will reject Glys and Renarin because they are Enlightened. In my opinion, there is enough corruption there the tower will at least try to reject them, especially since the Sibling is quite judgemental and picky.

It didn't stop Rlain from bonding with his own Corrupted Mistspren, though I could be remembering the timing wrong.

Maybe the reason Sja-Anat was considered the most dangerous Unmade by Ancient Radiants was because she could send her Enlightened Spren into Urithiru to spy for her, making even their one unassailable bastion not even safe from her eyes and ears.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

2 hours ago, The Stick said:

Based on this, do we think that Urithiru will reject Glys and Renarin because they are Enlightened. In my opinion, there is enough corruption there the tower will at least try to reject them, especially since the Sibling is quite judgemental and picky.

Looks like Enlightened Spren have enough small part of them changed to still be able to enter the Tower. But this doesnt mean full Voidspren will be able to enter - similarly Fused and Regals cant function in the Tower now, but Venli can, despite fact she still is bonded to the Voidspren.

[Dofurion]

27 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Looks like Enlightened Spren have enough small part of them changed to still be able to enter the Tower. But this doesnt mean full Voidspren will be able to enter - similarly Fused and Regals cant function in the Tower now, but Venli can, despite fact she still is bonded to the Voidspren.

This is just a hypothesis of mine, but I've always been under the impression that the difference between an enlightened Spren and an Unmade is that the former still has its investiture intact, but has been attuned to the pure tone of Odium. An Unmade, on the other hand, has had part of its investiture replaced by Voidlight.

[Master Silver]

3 hours ago, Dofurion said:

This is just a hypothesis of mine, but I've always been under the impression that the difference between an enlightened Spren and an Unmade is that the former still has its investiture intact, but has been attuned to the pure tone of Odium. An Unmade, on the other hand, has had part of its investiture replaced by Voidlight.

Youn know with the end of RoW, I was wondering if the Unmade might be remade. Even though the war has now reached a mutually assured destruction phase I think team Honor/Dalinar/Kaladin/Radiant, could claw back some ancient defeats, like making the umades mades again. Also, team Listener sitting out of the war is a big blow to Odium. The Listeners could essentially be the counter part to the Shin (who as I understand it are neutral). But I have a feeling that someone is going to destroy the world.

[Cocoa he/him]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:24 PM, Windrunner22 said:

One last observation regarding Dabbid and Lusintia. Super excited for Dabbid to bond a spren, but caught something when listening on audio. Back in ch.5, Shallan specifically mentions that Lusintia does not make an appearance. In other words, Lusintia is not counted among the 12 honorspren who answer Adolin’s call to bond humans. It seems she has traveled to bond Dabbid independently, and my theory is that she has done so after being corrupted/enlightened by Sja-Anat. This could explain why Kaladin mistakes her for windspren and does not recognize her as honorspren at first. Her appearance is slightly different after corruption/enlightenment. I think it could also fit well with Dabbid’s character as yes he will become a Knight Radiant, but he will still be different in his own way. 

I am... strongly skeptical of this theory. First, every corrupted/enlightened spren we've seen up until this point has had some pretty drastic visual changes, in terms of color palate if nothing else, far more drastic changes than would get one mistaken for their near-visually-identical cousin spren. Second, Syl specifically identifies Lusintia and doesn't make any commentary about her being corrupted, which feels like a pretty glaring thing for her to leave out. Third, we're given no indication that Sja-Anat was active in the immediate vicinity of Lasting Integrity (though I will concede that it's near to where Emul is in the Physical Realm), and Unmade activity feels like something that Honorspren would be on the lookout for. Occam's razor suggests that Lusintia simply struck out on her own before the other twelve Honorspren, possibly without telling anyone, and then kaladin mistook her for a windspren at a quick glance (not the first time the two have been confused in the series) and had to do a double-take.

[BinarySecond]

On 8/30/2024 at 2:36 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

We have a viewpoint from Balat when Shallan is busy in Kharbranth, and Kaladin killed Helaran in Alethkar.

Kaladin imagined one of the worst days of his life because Shallan wasn't well. It all makes sense.