SA5 Chapters 7 8 9

[The Stick]

Wow.

The revelation of the blades just fading from the physical realm after centuries is big, but at least that settles multiple arguments threads on the shard.

Shallan being able to transmute and control physical Mass with her light weaving is also very important, and I think it allows her a lot more shenanigans.

On the epigraphs, I think we can be sure it is not Kaladin, because he is specifically mentioned in the text. To me, it sounds like there will be way fewer Radiants post book, if people have no interest in bonds. I think the key to the author is who would call him Kaladin Stormblessed, Jasnah always addresses him by military rank.

Lusintia coming to bond Dabbid is pretty cool, and I really want Radiant Dabbid this book. I think it will be interesting to see whether or not his issues heal themselves, based on his perception of being different.

The Nightblood scene with Lift causing trouble made me laugh a lot.

Finally, who the storms is Abidi the Monarch? At first I thought that it could be El until the name-drop. Who on Roshar is this Fused and why have we not seen him before? I think that if he makes the Heavenly Ones more ruthless, then they might start slaughtering citizens to make Dalinar submit to stop the bloodshed. I also really wonder why this guy hates Lightweavers so much.

Shallan physically creating Radiant like Kalak said is awesome. With this, I would not be surprised if the book ends by Shallan literally making Radiant a separate body and moving the personality.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

9 minutes ago, The Stick said:

Shallan physically creating Radiant like Kalak said is awesome. With this, I would not be surprised if the book ends by Shallan literally making Radiant a separate body and moving the personality.

This is (sort of) a theory that I had!

 

"This should not surprise anyone who has familiarity with a spren, though such things are less common now than they once were."

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SPREN 

Edited August 26, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed

[Texside he/him/his]

These were some good stuff!

I think my favorite was Adolin being a dork about being on a flying horse. It was classic Adolin, and it was a really good and funny moment with Adolin and Shallan. I like seeing the little things that say, "Yeah, these two are a married couple." It had that feeling, for me.

40 minutes ago, The Stick said:

On the epigraphs, I think we can be sure it is not Kaladin, because he is specifically mentioned in the text. To me, it sounds like there will be way fewer Radiants post book, if people have no interest in bonds. I think the key to the author is who would call him Kaladin Stormblessed, Jasnah always addresses him by military rank.

I thought that, too! I'm really curious who it is; I'd kinda thought it might be, but... no, I don't think so. I'm also not sure if Shallan would call him that, but I'm iffier there.

Now I also have to ponder every time maybe Shallan made an illusion with mass.

[Ailvara]

53 minutes ago, The Stick said:

I think the key to the author is who would call him Kaladin Stormblessed, Jasnah always addresses him by military rank.

Now I think another key thing is how the author calls spren:

48 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

"This should not surprise anyone who has familiarity with a spren, though such things are less common now than they once were."

I guess we can remove at least most (all?) Radiants out of the list, I can't imagine someone with the bond would refer to Spren as things.

Quote

All agree the first key moment came when Kaladin Stormblessed listened. Though not an Edgedancer, he did a fine impression of their oaths.

Now why in the world would Kaladin need to emulate an Edgedancer? Maybe because they're all the way on the other side of the Honor-Cultivation spectrum of Radiants? I don't think he'll ascend combining Honor & Cultivation (I don't think anybody will for that matter - too repetitive), but it smells of something in this area.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Ailvara

[Erklitt]

Yes, the Lift mention was hilarious. And good for Dabbid!

I especially liked eveything about Adolin and his 'team'. Adolin 'goofy'. Gallant now considered (and probably considering himself) Adolins Ryshadium. Best of all: Maya 'folding her arms, smiling and shaking her head'. 

I'm looking forward to Kaladin's new stone getting wet... and, of course, his playing the flute.

Sadly, no relevant further Info about the Shinovar trip, e.g. what exactly Szeth plans to do once he gets there. That's what I'm really waiting for.

[teknopathetic he/him]

So, do we think Ryshadium will fly in the future? Seemend ... like a fairly deadpan hint. 

[Texside he/him/his]

8 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

I especially liked eveything about Adolin and his 'team'. Adolin 'goofy'. Gallant now considered (and probably considering himself) Adolins Ryshadium. Best of all: Maya 'folding her arms, smiling and shaking her head'.

Yes! I like that we see Gallant moving on. Sureblood dying and Adolin taking time to be with Gallant was a favorite little mini-arc of mine (and maybe hit harder because... oof, pet loss).

8 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

So, do we think Ryshadium will fly in the future? Seemend ... like a fairly deadpan hint. 

I'm here for it, even if it's a little silly.

[alder24]

It's interesting to see lost Shardblades disappearing from the PR. That explains why there are less than 100 known Shards. It's heartwarming to see Maya smile.

Ok, Shallan becoming Drehy and sucking in his Stormlight is big. Was that her DID or just some good old Radiant powers? Probably DID, but healing might have help or something. So if she can change her Identity at will, what can she do with it? 

And later Shallan just manifested Radiant with a physical body. Finally a confirmation of what we thought was possible. Quite powerful if you ask me, she can Lightweave an entire army to fight for her if given enough light. 

Lift has a bad influence on Nightblood - she's encouraging him to eat more! I hope Nightblood will get something to eat. Can Szeth just unsheath him by 1 inch and give him a sweet treat to consume or something?  

Galant and Skar scenes were hilarious! 

And did Shallan just swear a new Truth?? 4th Ideal with Pattern? Resworn Ideal with Testament? What was with those Words??

 

1 hour ago, The Stick said:

To me, it sounds like there will be way fewer Radiants post book, if people have no interest in bonds.

I thought at first that the author is comparing the current times to pre-Recreance times. Radiant bonds are indeed rare now compared to what they were in the ancient past. But I doubt there are many readers who remember those times so it's kind of pointless. 

10 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

So, do we think Ryshadium will fly in the future? Seemend ... like a fairly deadpan hint. 

Maybe if they bond with a spren, otherwise I don't think so.

[Eluvianii he/him]

Man, these are short. 

It's starting to sound to me like the book was written far into the future. The way they mention how spren are less common doesn't sound like a recent change. And did anyone else get the feeling they were talking about Kaladin like a historical figure? 

I wonder if that fused will be important at all. So far it looks like your typical villain who likes to give himself airs only to be swiftly dealt with by the protagonist. Which is what happened. 

Lightweavers are looking cooler by the minute. 

Oooh I'm seeing some high school style drama from Syl's part. Gimme the spren gossip. 

 

Edit: Saw in another thread someone throw the theory that Tien's spren is hanging around. Maybe that's the reason Kaladin had to emulate Edgedancer oaths? 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Eluvianii

[Rorzikel]

34 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

Edit: Saw in another thread someone throw the theory that Tien's spren is hanging around. Maybe that's the reason Kaladin had to emulate Edgedancer oaths? 

Tien was a prospective Lightweaver, I believe.

[Texside he/him/his]

4 minutes ago, Rorzikel said:

Tien was a prospective Lightweaver, I believe.

He was! Took me a second, but here's a WOB on the subject:

 

Quote

Undercoverwillshaper

So you had had a Word of Brandon that had said that Tien was on his way to becoming a Lightweaver. My question is, did he ever actually become a Lightweaver; did he speak an Oath, and if so, did he bond with a Cryptic?

Brandon Sanderson

That's an excellent question. If you look closely through the first book, you will see Tien having some slight Lightweaving effects. In the back of my head, he was where Kaladin was during most of the first book, where it wasn't really official but there was a spren hanging around. He was very close to-- by the time he left, already done that. I would say he never actually managed to get that bond working... Otherwise, perhaps, things would have played out differently than they did.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

 

Edited August 26, 2024 by Texside

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

58 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ok, Shallan becoming Drehy and sucking in his Stormlight is big.

Agree! HUGE. It's definitely reminiscent of Returned like Vasher being able play with their physical representation based on how they 'view' themselves or their own identity. So seems to have sime ties with identity, and could very well be enhanced by her DID - like maybe that is a special superpower enhancer when combined with her particular skills?

And with her now being able to give her illusions physical weight/matter/feel... she's basically Thanos with the reality stone lol

Edit to add: Can she now take breaths back from objects that other people have stored breath in? Like if Vasher or maybe someone with more basic skills in using breaths stores a few in a blanket, can Shallan "be [insert name / ID here]" enough that she can then pull the "your breath to mine" and just absorbs them right in?

Edited August 26, 2024 by CognitiveShadow

[Rorzikel]

After what we see of Shallan using Be Drehy to hijack his lashing's investiture, her variant identities melding so well with her powers, and her manifesting solid projections from lightweaving that draw blood, I'm starting to think that Soul Stamps might share more in common with Lightweaving/Soulcasting than I ever suspected.

[Smye]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Maybe if they bond with a spren, otherwise I don't think so.

They are, in fact, already bonded to a spren: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452-youtube-spoiler-stream-1/#e14509

[Etedbert he/him]

Anybody else notice Radiant looking a little more like the depiction we have of Chana? We didn’t get a description of Radiant’s clothing or the shardblade she was wielding, but her hair is in a braid like Chana, and is described as being much more muscular and strong compared to Shallan. Something you’d expect of the Herald repeatedly described as being a soldier.

 

edit:

I’ve also noticed how Radiant seems to guide Shallan through swearing a fourth ideal here. Despite Shallan saying she already said the words. It might be some hijinks involving the dual bond ?

pretty sure she’s re-swearing her 2nd oath, Assumably this time she’s swearing the second oath with Testament.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Etedbert

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Edit to add: Can she now take breaths back from objects that other people have stored breath in? Like if Vasher or maybe someone with more basic skills in using breaths stores a few in a blanket, can Shallan "be [insert name / ID here]" enough that she can then pull the "your breath to mine" and just absorbs them right in?

Ooooh yes. That's definitely possible!

10 minutes ago, Smye said:

They are, in fact, already bonded to a spren: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452-youtube-spoiler-stream-1/#e14509

Yes, but that's not enough to gain Surgebinding powers, it only gives them more intelligence but not enough to use powers. Full sentience is needed. They need another bond - with a Windspren or better, with a True Spren.

Spoiler

Questioner

Would a macaw be able to become a Radiant? Or do you need sentience?

Brandon Sanderson

You need sapience. A macaw could not become a Knight Radiant. A macaw could, theoretically, enter a symbiotic spren bond, which would have different effects. Like, Ryshadium or even most of the larger greatshells don't have sapience. But a lot of creatures on Roshar do have what I would term an in-between step between human-level intelligence and animal-level intelligence on Earth. Ryshadium are in this; chasmfiends, as well, are smarter than an animal can get on Earth.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

47 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Edit to add: Can she now take breaths back from objects that other people have stored breath in? Like if Vasher or maybe someone with more basic skills in using breaths stores a few in a blanket, can Shallan "be [insert name / ID here]" enough that she can then pull the "your breath to mine" and just absorbs them right in?

Ooooh yes. That's definitely possible!

Do we think Vasher could do this then too? And other Returned who can alter their physical appearance based on their view of themselves? It does seem to be a step beyond what Vasher does though... but then again I could still see it being possible. And that would likely require someone like Vasher to be extra cautious and maybe add key phrases that must be uttered by them in order to take their breath(s) out of an object? That way even if someone matches his identity the way Shallan did for Drehy it would still be protected since they don't know the pass code?

EDIT: I'm realizing there are just so many possibilities here for Shallan.... could she basically shift her identity in her mind to such a degree that she could become an elantrian? Like would she at least be able to access the dor if she were in Elantris and adjusted her mindset in the right way? I'm just trying to theorize on what the limitations are here haha

Edited August 26, 2024 by CognitiveShadow

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Now I think another key thing is how the author calls spren:

I guess we can remove at least most (all?) Radiants out of the list, I can't imagine someone with the bond would refer to Spren as things.

Now why in the world would Kaladin need to emulate an Edgedancer? Maybe because they're all the way on the other side of the Honor-Cultivation spectrum of Radiants? I don't think he'll ascend combining Honor & Cultivation (I don't think anybody will for that matter - too repetitive), but it smells of something in this area.

I interpreted the comment to mean "such things" (as Nahel bonds - thus having "familiarity with a [sentient] spren") "are less common now than they once were", not that spren themselves were less common.

Which is still curious/interesting, of course.

And the Edgedancer comment is because Kaladin "listened" to the Wind, echoing the Third Ideal of the Edgedancers, I will listen to those who have been ignored.

If anything I read that as low-key snarking, like "Hey Edgedancers, guess what, anybody can just listen too, ya know!" LOL.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It's interesting to see lost Shardblades disappearing from the PR. That explains why there are less than 100 known Shards. It's heartwarming to see Maya smile.

Ok, Shallan becoming Drehy and sucking in his Stormlight is big. Was that her DID or just some good old Radiant powers? Probably DID, but healing might have help or something. So if she can change her Identity at will, what can she do with it? 

And later Shallan just manifested Radiant with a physical body. Finally a confirmation of what we thought was possible. Quite powerful if you ask me, she can Lightweave an entire army to fight for her if given enough light. 

...

And did Shallan just swear a new Truth?? 4th Ideal with Pattern? Resworn Ideal with Testament? What was with those Words??

Yeah, that does explain where all the "missing" Shardblades are. They're lost in the CR.

"Be. Drehy." I had to re-read that a few times to appreciate what that meant was going on.

Drehy had Lashed her upwards in order to fly, and normally only the Windrunner who had created the Lashing could un-Lash it - though another Windrunner or Skybreaker with the same Surge could apply another one to cancel it out.

So Shallan effectively Lightweaved a proxy Drehy layer that could fool the Investiture so she could draw it in? Not to the point of actually creating a Lashing, but more like an Identity Key fakeout.

And then later, she Lightweaved something (someone) physical - which she already kind of did at Thalyen Fields, where Jasnah observed with interest that she seemed to be giving her illusions some actual mass.

And then implied she "had already said" the Words that allowed her to do this. As in, remembered that she'd gotten pretty far in Ideals as a child. (Or... As before.)

I mean, at Thaylen Fields, her image of Radiant was enclosed in garnet Shardplate. A Fourth Ideal Radiant.

Or even... Fifth? Did pre-Shallan Shallan get all the way to the FIFTH Ideal? And now has a previously banned double-spren Nahel bond?

Edited August 26, 2024 by robardin

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Do we think Vasher could do this then too? And other Returned who can alter their physical appearance based on their view of themselves? It does seem to be a step beyond what Vasher does though... but then again I could still see it being possible. And that would likely require someone like Vasher to be extra cautious and maybe add key phrases that must be uttered by them in order to take their breath(s) out of an object? That way even if someone matches his identity the way Shallan did for Drehy it would still be protected since they don't know the pass code?

No, This is probably mostly because of Shallan's DID. Vasher remains Vasher whenever he changes his perception - he looks different, but recognisably the same. Returned can't change their appearance to look like someone else, rather a different version of themselves - they still have the same Identity and Spiritual Ideal. Warbreaker ch 58:

Quote

Vasher looked at her. It was him. The same look to the face, the same expressions. He hadn’t changed shape to look like someone else. He just looked like a Returned version of himself

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Denth's Speed

Yes, Denth is inhumanly fast. He's a Returned, after all, and has all of the physical enhancements that come with that. Even when he's chosen not to manifest most of them, he's still got an edge, just like Vasher does.

How do they hide that they're Returned? Well, it comes down to mastery of their ability to change their appearance. They can't shape-shift entirely; they can just alter some things about their appearance. They can change their weight, their hair color, and things like that at will. Vasher doesn't do this often, but Denth has been known to use it as a disguise. The problem, after you do this once and someone realizes it, your nature becomes very suspect.

They have learned to suppress their divine Breath. This allows them to hide, but they must be careful never to give away all of their Breath. Denth has been a Drab before—he's not completely lying—but never for longer than a few days. And his divine Breath is always there, suppressed. So he doesn't know what it's like to be a true Drab, which is why in this chapter he says he doesn't think it changes you that much. He's never felt it.

Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 26, 2010)

 

16 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

EDIT: I'm realizing there are just so many possibilities here for Shallan.... could she basically shift her identity in her mind to such a degree that she could become an elantrian? Like would she at least be able to access the dor if she were in Elantris and adjusted her mindset in the right way? I'm just trying to theorize on what the limitations are here haha

Probably not. That would be too Forgery-like. I think she is just shifting her Identity but nothing else - all her Connections and this stuff remained unaffected. She certainly didn't get Drehy's spren bond when she became him.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wonder how Shallan's Pjhysical Weavings would work in the tower? Could Radiant get plugged into the tower light and then go about an entire day? 

Edited August 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I wonder how Shallan's Pjhysical Weavings would work in the tower? Could Radiant get plugged into the tower light and then go about an entire day? 

Probably. Now I wonder how detailed this Lightweaving is - can it behave autonomously? Can it speak? Can Shallan basically create a physical Radiant to take over her knightly duties, while Shallan would spend an entire day in a hot bath making drawings without anybody noticing? That would be handy but probably bad for her DID.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

13 minutes ago, robardin said:

And then implied she "had already said" the Words that allowed her to do this. As in, remembered that she'd gotten pretty far in Ideals as a child. (Or... As before.)

I mean, at Thaylen Fields, her image of Radiant was enclosed in garnet Shardplate. A Fourth Ideal Radiant.

Or even... Fifth? Did pre-Shallan Shallan get all the way to the FIFTH Ideal? And now has a previously banned double-spren Nahel bond?

Just when I thought I could not get less confused about Shallan's past and what is real / what isn't.... lol dying to find out more here!

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Probably not. That would be too Forgery-like. I think she is just shifting her Identity but nothing else - all her Connections and this stuff remained unaffected. She certainly didn't get Drehy's spren bond when she became him.

That makes sense, it does seem to be more like:

14 minutes ago, robardin said:

Identity Key fakeout.

So basically Shallan now has the power to steal investiture that has been coded for other people. Though I assume she would not be able to take investiture directly from someone as they are holding it, only when it is outside of that person and operating on some command or something. That said, I'm still wondering what else she could do:

• 'your breath to mine' someone's breaths that are in another object (already addressed earlier here but including it for a comprehensive list)
• tap metal minds that were filled by a feruchemist if she presents herself as that person?
  • In this case, would she get the tapped characteristic (speed, weight, etc.) or would she just absorb the investiture itself and use it as she would regular stormlight?
• make herself impervious to lashings from a radiant? (or at least quickly and easily dismiss those lashings herself if she practices this skill)
  • What if the lashing is from a fused, using voidlight though... ?
• Can she access voidlight by coding her identity more in line with one of the fused perhaps?

After starting this list, I'm realizing it sounds kind of similar to Nomad and how he absorbs investiture to get to certain BEU levels...? Any relation here, or do we think this is it's own special situation?

[+robardin he/him]

28 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

...there are just so many possibilities here for Shallan.... could she basically shift her identity in her mind to such a degree that she could become an elantrian? Like would she at least be able to access the dor if she were in Elantris and adjusted her mindset in the right way? I'm just trying to theorize on what the limitations are here haha

We are not sure what it requires to "become" an Elantrian. If you're referring to what we see Moonlight do with a soulstamp in TLM, well that's different from a Lightweaving. Identity "fronting" and actually forming a Connection based on it, are not the same.

It's still a new frontier for Lightweaving as far as we've seen, though. Just being able to withdraw Investiture with a fakeout Identity key is massively useful.

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

We are not sure what it requires to "become" an Elantrian. If you're referring to what we see Moonlight do with a soulstamp in TLM, well that's different from a Lightweaving. Identity "fronting" and actually forming a Connection based on it, are not the same.

It's still a new frontier for Lightweaving as far as we've seen, though. Just being able to withdraw Investiture with a fakeout Identity key is massively useful.

That makes sense - I think initially I looked at what Shallan did as playing with connection and identity, but I think you are right that she was really just faking identity enough to take back the stormlight that was holding her in place. Sort of like an unkeyed metal mind or turning it into pure dor in a way. Except that she's doing the opposite and making herself match the identity lock as if she were that person. Really, really interesting. 

It feels like Shallan or someone with her particular set of skills in the far distant space age future would be like a master hacker lol

[listerfeend]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Probably not. That would be too Forgery-like. I think she is just shifting her Identity but nothing else - all her Connections and this stuff remained unaffected. She certainly didn't get Drehy's spren bond when she became him.

I'm pretty well convinced that Shallan's identities are more than just identities, and are actually capital I Identities, and she is Connected to various versions of herself that could have been. Radiant is the Shallan that would have grown up with her Herald mother teaching her how to be a Knight. Veil is the Shallan that grew up working for the Ghostbloods, learning spy craft and the like. Formless is the Shallan that would have succumbed to the depression and misery of growing up in the Davar household with that Unmade lurking about, and the abusive father...

I think she's already doing things along the same lines as Forgery, but instead of re-writing her Connections and Identity to make it so that she was born somewhere else, to different parents, in different situations, she is instead drawing upon the Connections to what could have been had things gone differently. Much like she's able to draw versions of people that could have been. She's just actually able to incorporate those people into herself.