SA5 Chapters 7 8 9

[Mayalaran]

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On 8/26/2024 at 6:38 PM, Smye said:

I'm super curious to hear how you'd square Nohadon as the author with the namedrop of Kaladin Stormblessed in WaT (in-world).

I heard someone say that perhaps Nohadon had held the dawnshard on Roshar, which I think could definitely be plausible, and would be super cool.

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[bmcclure7]

Has anyone considered that it may not be anyone we know or anyone in recent time it could be a historian far and the far in the future. 
 

It makes me wonder if in the future, the knights radiant will go away of the mistborn, ancient figures of legends that no longer exist.

Edited August 28, 2024 by bmcclure7

[Grailmoth]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Has anyone considered that it may not be anyone we know or anyone in recent time it could be a historian far and the far in the future. 
 

It makes me wonder if in the future, the knights radiant will go away of the mistborn, ancient figures of legends that no longer exist.

The way Nomad is regarded in the Sunlit Man by some Scadrians as an "oathed Rosharan" makes me think that they still exist and are fairly well known in the future Cosmere.

[bmcclure7]

7 minutes ago, Grailmoth said:

The way Nomad is regarded in the Sunlit Man by some Scadrians as an "oathed Rosharan" makes me think that they still exist and are fairly well known in the future Cosmere.

There could be people saying oaths who are not knights radiant. Remember that the Bond Smith Squires also say oh this, even though they have no spren to bond. 
 

If the spren retreat from the physical world and no longer bond people I could easily see a world with a knights radiant as an organization continues with this regular humans with may be a few dead blades swear oaths and still follow the ideology of the radiance. But without any surge binding powers or spren

[Grailmoth]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

There could be people saying oaths who are not knights radiant. Remember that the Bond Smith Squires also say oh this, even though they have no spren to bond. 
 

If the spren retreat from the physical world and no longer bond people I could easily see a world with a knights radiant as an organization continues with this regular humans with may be a few dead blades swear oaths and still follow the ideology of the radiance. But without any surge binding powers or spren

I could see that, although if that were the case I don't think they would have reacted to him the way that they did.
 

Quote

“Who were you talking to?” the woman asked him, narrowing her eyes. “I thought you said you were unoathed. Do you have a spren?”

...

The air broke around him—the fragments of his ancient armor trying to push into reality again. Some from his first oaths, some from his second. Either way, it was the absolute wrong time for them to be doing that. “Oathed after all…” the woman said, noting the shards. “Arcanist… Rosharan… Dark skin…” Her eyes went wide.

It seems like they knew what oathed Rosharans could do and expected them to have spren bonds and powers.

Edited August 28, 2024 by Grailmoth

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Grailmoth said:

I could see that, although if that were the case I don't think they would have reacted to him the way that they did.
 

It seems like they knew what oathed Rosharans could do and expected them to have spren bonds and powers.

Odd the author of Wind and truth makes it seem Spren have retreated treated for roshar Unless spren in this case refers to a dead spren but that’s maybe a little too far fetched 

Edited August 28, 2024 by bmcclure7

[alder24]

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It makes me wonder if in the future, the knights radiant will go away of the mistborn, ancient figures of legends that no longer exist.

Maybe not entirely, but I suspect something in the near future will happen that will make Radiants reconsider if what they are doing is honorable, if Honor is honorable at all. Sigzil broke his bond with his Honorspren, he abandoned Windrunners hating Honor. This might be caused by some revelation about Honor, the arrival of Odium and the first Desolation, or something else. I wouldn't be surprised if others were to follow him. If this is going to happen, I expect it in WaT. TSM ch 40:

Quote

He clasped his hands behind his back, remembering what it felt like to wear that uniform, bear that armor, carry those oaths. “I had to ask myself, once it was all done, if honor was a sham. If it was a ruse used to make men kill one another—to let them pretend there was a purpose to it. If that concept—the very idea of an honorable soldier—was not the most pernicious evil that had ever blighted the cosmere.”

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Maybe not entirely, but I suspect something in the near future will happen that will make Radiants reconsider if what they are doing is honorable, if Honor is honorable at all. Sigzil broke his bond with his Honorspren, he abandoned Windrunners hating Honor. This might be caused by some revelation about Honor, the arrival of Odium and the first Desolation, or something else. I wouldn't be surprised if others were to follow him. If this is going to happen, I expect it in WaT. TSM ch 40:

Maybe but I’m not sure that plot point would work twice since I filled that already happened in oath bringer.  I was thinking more along lines and maybe some sort of treaty or something. Maybe even a new Recrence if it is causing the dead eyes is fixed, and the unmade void spren are safely locked away again, and especially if a lot of the world is destroyed by surge bindings, I could definitely see you possibility for the knights to decide that the surgeries are unnecessary now and too dangerous

[Grailmoth]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Maybe not entirely, but I suspect something in the near future will happen that will make Radiants reconsider if what they are doing is honorable, if Honor is honorable at all. Sigzil broke his bond with his Honorspren, he abandoned Windrunners hating Honor. This might be caused by some revelation about Honor, the arrival of Odium and the first Desolation, or something else. I wouldn't be surprised if others were to follow him. If this is going to happen, I expect it in WaT. TSM ch 40:

That's possible, though I took that passage bit differently when I read it - as more of an indication of Sigzil's character growth and change. I see this in my own life, where on one hand you have people who revere and deeply respect those who serve in the military. The honorable soldier is a really important idea and symbol for them. And then on the other hand you have people who hate the military, who find war to be a massive sham, and you have plenty of people somewhere on spectrum of possible opinions in between. Sigzil, who is mentored by Hoid, and has also held a Dawnshard that makes him physically unable to harm others, probably changed his views on the idea of an "Honorable Soldier" over time, and his changing views could have made him incompatible with his previously sworn oaths. I know that my own views on the subject have slowly changed over time, and I haven't ever been personally involved in a war the way Sigzil was.

 

Either way, I'm excited to see what else we learn when Wind and Truth comes out.

Edited August 28, 2024 by Grailmoth

[+Bzhydack he/him]

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

It makes me wonder if in the future, the knights radiant will go away of the mistborn, ancient figures of legends that no longer exist.

Spoiler

In Isles of Emberdark published chapters/in Sixth of the Dusk 2, what will be the futuremost Cosmere novel, we literaly see Skybreaker. In armor. Outside Roshar. With Shardgun.

 

[+robardin he/him]

On 8/26/2024 at 9:19 PM, Kesamijr said:

I’ve always felt he was still floating around somewhere, never seen the body and all that. 

I also feel there’s a nice symmetry (fitting for Stormlight) to have him write the first and last in world book. First and last are him, 2nd and 4th professionals, 3rd Dalinar. 
 

But the biggest thing for me is, of my list of potential authors, he’s starting to fit the best.
 

Things we now about the author:

Self-Described Historian and philosopher

Not alive in “ancient days” when Singers and Human coexist

Seem to have been around pre-Recreance with a more functional Urithiru and Spren around.

Probably not an Edgedancer or Kaladin do to the third person natures there?

Probably Connected to Honor/Roshar due to being watched by the wind?

 

Tbf, if the book is the first from the future in world, and there’s some kind of cataclysm that make spren sparse again, it could be functionally anyone and Szeth, Jasnah, Shallan et. al could still be up there on the list, but if the book is present day I think Nohadon fits those categories best? Him or I guess Melishi, who has been getting more airtime than him recently, that’s a shout I didn’t think of till now. 
 

But no hard proof just my guesses and rust!

Dude, Nohadon is dead. Long dead. You don't have to "see the body" of someone who lived in the Silver Age of Roshar to assume that.

In any case, Odium himself referred to Nohadon's book, "The Way of Kings", as "the words of a man long dead, long failed" as he zapped it when Dalinar clung to a copy like a talisman while trying not to give Odium his pain.

Don't know why you think the writer of KoWaT excepts in the few chapter headings we've had suggest "seems to have been around pre-Recreance with functional Urithiru" when Urithiru was made fully functional at the end of RoW and Navani bonding the Sibling; and the "fewer spren bonds around" is implied to be a result of whatever happens in the "cleansing of Shinovar", not because of Nale's actions of the past thousand years or so before the Everstorm arrived.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

52 minutes ago, robardin said:

On 8/27/2024 at 3:19 AM, Kesamijr said:

 

Dude, Nohadon is dead. Long dead. You don't have to "see the body" of someone who lived in the Silver Age of Roshar to assume that.

Even if he isnt dead, his mental state will be in similar shape to Herlads i.e. in condition nowhere near to ability to write book. At least historical book. Other than that, he will be less relaiable narrator than Shallan is.

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

Dude, Nohadon is dead. Long dead. You don't have to "see the body" of someone who lived in the Silver Age of Roshar to assume that.

In the interest of fairness, after doing some searching in the WoB Arcanum, I will admit that Brandon himself has been cagey about dismissing the idea that Nohadon may still be around somehow, or that he was somehow special.

But you know, not all RAFOs are indicative of "you're on to something", and not every indication that "Nohadon had something special about/going on for him" means "he's still alive, even as a CG like Kelsier is, somewhere in the Cosmere"...

Quote

Questioner

So Nohadon's still alive, right?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO! Why would you say that Nohadon is still alive?

Questioner

I know he's still alive.

Brandon Sanderson

Why would you say he's still alive?

Questioner

It's the perfect trick, that you're gonna bring back Nohadon. It's my feeling about things.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Quote

CrypticRadiant

Has Nohadon been a Dawnshard in the past? (my guess is maybe he has and now it’s stored inside The Way of Kings, or jumped to Dalinar from there, would explain the Nohadon dream and the warmth he feels and Unite Them)

Bonus second question: is the ardent Pai actually the Herald Paliah? Other than the name similarity, the other ardent remarks on the name being weird, she’s obsessed with showing the world “The Truth” about Aesudan, and the Taravangian interlude in that same block swears by Pali’s mind, which seems a bit suspicious as it’s an uncommon curse.

Brandon Sanderson

Good question on Nohadon, and a RAFO to boot.

Actually, both questions are RAFOs. If you ever meet me in person, be sure to demand a card!

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 8, 2020)

Quote

Questioner

Did whoever wrote the The Way of Kings, have access or exposure to BioChromatic Breath? There was a scene in Chapter 26, it could just be speaking of candles and breath. But the way you wrote it made me think that there was some connection.

Brandon Sanderson

There has been longstanding travel between those two planets.

LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020)

Quote

Snote85

Is Nohadon a herald. There are tons and tons of little things that make me think this. Like the KR have the Way of Kings to base their views and policies on. Which, as was stated, was written by him. In Dalinar's vision of Nohadon, he says things about surgebindings and implies the man he's speaking to is a leader of an order, like he himself is. We know, from the WoR (In world) excerpts, that all the orders were lead by the heralds, after a time anyway. That's my reasoning, not that you need it, if it's true or not true. I just thought I might clarify why I came to that conclusion.

Brandon Sanderson

Nohadon is not a Herald, but I can see what lead you to think otherwise. Let's just say that even among kings and surgebinders, he was someone special.

General Reddit 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017)

Quote

Jofwu

Dalinar had two really weird visions. Was that Connection-y stuff like he did with Kaladin and Tien?

Brandon Sanderson

Which ones are you talking about?

Jofwu

End of Words of Radiance, and in Oathbringer with Nohadon.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would be the same sort of weirdness that's happening with Tien. Yes, so you have basically multiple different ways of interpreting this. One is just--what Dalinar wants is directly... he is starting to change the visions specifically, and some might argue he is pulling from the Beyond. Others would argue that what Dalinar wants, feels things in his past, he is actually enforcing upon the vision, and is changing and altering the visions. And that is absolutely going on. It's whether the other thing is happening or not, depends on your personal religious beliefs. But Dalinar is starting, the Bondsmithing is starting to shape the visions.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

[Kesamijr]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

Don't know why you think the writer of KoWaT excepts in the few chapter headings we've had suggest "seems to have been around pre-Recreance with functional Urithiru" when Urithiru was made fully functional at the end of RoW and Navani bonding the Sibling; and the "fewer spren bonds around" is implied to be a result of whatever happens in the "cleansing of Shinovar", not because of Nale's actions of the past thousand years or so before the Everstorm arrived.

Quoted this one but thank you for doing the research and being fair!!yeah Brandon’s been vague but red herrings are also a thing so who knows. But I read the line to mean people were less familiar with spren in general! I see your point about it being about spren bonds, but had read it to be about a familiarity with spren in general. And as we’ve seen, Urithiru puts people in close proximity with less sapient spren and is also a symbol of a fully functioning Knights Radiant, so a double proximity with spren. The point is, I think we agree, the author was around in a period where spren, and human interactions with them, were plentiful. And the two periods in which that is the case are Pre-Recreance and the modern day. So the author is either in the future, referring to the time period in WaT, or someone who lived through the past times when that was also the case. I like the future ideas as well and we haven’t had a yet-to-be written book as the epigraphs, but if the book is NOT from the future, my guess would be someone of Nohadon’s ilk. Till we get more we won’t know though tbf, not enough info yet to make certain guesses, just hypotheses!

[Ashbringer he/him]

2 minutes ago, Kesamijr said:

I like the future ideas as well and we haven’t had a yet-to-be written book as the epigraphs, but if the book is NOT from the future, my guess would be someone of Nohadon’s ilk. Till we get more we won’t know though tbf, not enough info yet to make certain guesses, just hypotheses!

Technically, Oathbringer the in-world book wasn't finished until a good while after the climax of OB. But that's not quite the same as far-future authorship.

[Kesamijr]

Just now, Ashbringer said:

Technically, Oathbringer the in-world book wasn't finished until a good while after the climax of OB. But that's not quite the same as far-future authorship.

You’re right! But I agree felt very much like a present book. First two felt past, second two felt present, this one could be future!

[Subvisual Haze]

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

Maybe not entirely, but I suspect something in the near future will happen that will make Radiants reconsider if what they are doing is honorable, if Honor is honorable at all. Sigzil broke his bond with his Honorspren, he abandoned Windrunners hating Honor. This might be caused by some revelation about Honor, the arrival of Odium and the first Desolation, or something else. I wouldn't be surprised if others were to follow him. If this is going to happen, I expect it in WaT. TSM ch 40:

My guess would be that Siz's and other honorspren are the ones initiating the breaking of bonds and vanishing from contact.  To re-forge the Honor shard?  Or the oathpact?

Sizgil would be understandably bitter that his honorspren was basically sacrificed to that end.

[Windrunner22]

Hi all! New here but wanted to share some thoughts after previews 7, 8, 9, were absolutely electric. 
 

I’m most interested in Shallan as she is seemingly re-swearing an oath with Testament. It’s notable that she is able to give physical form to her lightweaving only after she re-speaks her truth, and I think Brando is giving us a clue about the mechanisms of her double bond with Pattern and Testament. If she is indeed re-speaking a truth to Testament, then it seems that her truths with Testament advance her abilities with the surge of Transformation (Soulcasting/Manifesting), while her truths with Pattern advance her abilities with the surge of Illumination (Lightweaving). This could explain why we’ve seen Shallan become an elite Lightweaver, but she has struggled Soulcasting. 
 

However, I think there is an even bigger hint about Shallan here. She is talking with Radiant when she re-speaks her truth to Testament. Radiant tells her to say the words where if Kaladin were in a similar situation it would be Syl telling him to say the words, you know the words, etc… It’s almost like Radiant is fulfilling the role of Testament/spren for this truth. We know Shallan is still bonded to Testament as there was not a “clean cut”, for lack of a better word I will say the bond is frayed. I think that Radiant specifically represents the part of Shallan that is still bonded to Testament or the part of her where the bond is the least frayed. This is why Radiant plays a role here for Shallan’s re-sworn truth. This could also be the reason that the Radiant personality remains separate and is not absorbed like Veil. Perhaps if Shallan is able to absorb the Radiant personality it will restore Testament in some way. 
 

One last observation regarding Dabbid and Lusintia. Super excited for Dabbid to bond a spren, but caught something when listening on audio. Back in ch.5, Shallan specifically mentions that Lusintia does not make an appearance. In other words, Lusintia is not counted among the 12 honorspren who answer Adolin’s call to bond humans. It seems she has traveled to bond Dabbid independently, and my theory is that she has done so after being corrupted/enlightened by Sja-Anat. This could explain why Kaladin mistakes her for windspren and does not recognize her as honorspren at first. Her appearance is slightly different after corruption/enlightenment. I think it could also fit well with Dabbid’s character as yes he will become a Knight Radiant, but he will still be different in his own way. 
 

Let me know if I’m crazy!

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 8/27/2024 at 7:03 PM, bmcclure7 said:

Odd the author of Wind and truth makes it seem Spren have retreated treated for roshar Unless spren in this case refers to a dead spren but that’s maybe a little too far fetched 

It could also be that most spren are in the physical realm now. Unlikely? But possible. 

[Isilel]

3 hours ago, Windrunner22 said:

I think it could also fit well with Dabbid’s character as yes he will become a Knight Radiant, but he will still be different in his own way. 

 

I may be in the minority, but personally I am disappointed that all Bridge Four apart from Renarin and Rlain become Windrunners. I really wanted some of them to join different Orders and Dabbid in particular struck me as a shoe in for Edgedancer after RoW. I mean, his interactions with the Sibling fit "I will listen to those who are ignored" to a t and he generally seems much more along the lines of "loving and healing" than protection and leadership.

It comes across as if individual qualities of a Radiant candidate are almost irrelevant for the Order choice,  while circumstance of being in Bridge Four is pretty much paramount.

I really like your ideas about the connection between Radiant and Testament!

 

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

I may be in the minority, but personally I am disappointed that all Bridge Four apart from Renarin and Rlain become Windrunners. I really wanted some of them to join different Orders and Dabbid in particular struck me as a shoe in for Edgedancer after RoW. I mean, his interactions with the Sibling fit "I will listen to those who are ignored" to a t and he generally seems much more along the lines of "loving and healing" than protection and leadership.

It comes across as if individual qualities of a Radiant candidate are almost irrelevant for the Order choice,  while circumstance of being in Bridge Four is pretty much paramount.

I really like your ideas about the connection between Radiant and Testament!

Well now, it’s not like “for every person/personality there’s one and only one spren match for a Nahel bond”.

I agree that I thought Dabbid could have been a great Edgedancer, and let’s remember the Sibling had been willing to bond Dabbid as well, so his attracting an honorspren certainly has something to do with his being in Bridge Four and being trained by/close with Kaladin, the paragon Windrunner.

And yet, it’s not like Dabbid is being forced into a Windrunner peg hole. His moving to stand in front of the boy Adin, spear grasped in shaking hands as they stared down a force of stormform singers, taking a battle stance he had seen and possibly trained in but had never actually stood to battle…

That was pure Windrunner. And quite probably, pure Stoneward (we haven’t seen a POV from one yet). 

And in The Sunlit Man we see someone who has been in two different Radiant orders in his life, as well (through as yet unexplained circumstances).

The point is, almost anybody worthy of a spren bond would “match up” with a variety of spren. Probably not all ten, but at least 3 or 4, I would say.

And then after that, it’s a matter of circumstance, and yes, spren will go where spren of their kind have already been/gone - it’s why the honorspren all went for the people in various “bridge crews”, even if many of them (lighteyes, or Lyn) never actually served as bridge runners.

7 hours ago, Windrunner22 said:

…regarding Dabbid and Lusintia. Super excited for Dabbid to bond a spren, but caught something when listening on audio. Back in ch.5, Shallan specifically mentions that Lusintia does not make an appearance. In other words, Lusintia is not counted among the 12 honorspren who answer Adolin’s call to bond humans. It seems she has traveled to bond Dabbid independently, and my theory is that she has done so after being corrupted/enlightened by Sja-Anat. This could explain why Kaladin mistakes her for windspren and does not recognize her as honorspren at first. Her appearance is slightly different after corruption/enlightenment. I think it could also fit well with Dabbid’s character as yes he will become a Knight Radiant, but he will still be different in his own way. 
 

Let me know if I’m crazy!

Oooh, that’s both a really good catch and a really good theory. Kudos on both!

But I think Syl would probably have noticed at a glance that Lusintia had changed.

It had been apparent to someone like Jasnah working off of a description/sketch of a lightspren, “the proper spren of the Truthwatchers” and when seeing Renarin’s spren for the first time, that Glys “was not normal”, with a “bright red” look to him.

I think such an “enlightenment” would be even more apparent to a fellow honorspren who had known Lusintia already.

[Dofurion]

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

 

I may be in the minority, but personally I am disappointed that all Bridge Four apart from Renarin and Rlain become Windrunners. I really wanted some of them to join different Orders and Dabbid in particular struck me as a shoe in for Edgedancer after RoW. I mean, his interactions with the Sibling fit "I will listen to those who are ignored" to a t and he generally seems much more along the lines of "loving and healing" than protection and leadership.

It comes across as if individual qualities of a Radiant candidate are almost irrelevant for the Order choice,  while circumstance of being in Bridge Four is pretty much paramount.

I really like your ideas about the connection between Radiant and Testament!

 

We still have the possibility of Roca as Stoneward

[Wanguu He/Him]

13 hours ago, Windrunner22 said:

One last observation regarding Dabbid and Lusintia. Super excited for Dabbid to bond a spren, but caught something when listening on audio. Back in ch.5, Shallan specifically mentions that Lusintia does not make an appearance. In other words, Lusintia is not counted among the 12 honorspren who answer Adolin’s call to bond humans. It seems she has traveled to bond Dabbid independently, and my theory is that she has done so after being corrupted/enlightened by Sja-Anat. This could explain why Kaladin mistakes her for windspren and does not recognize her as honorspren at first. Her appearance is slightly different after corruption/enlightenment. I think it could also fit well with Dabbid’s character as yes he will become a Knight Radiant, but he will still be different in his own way. 
 

Let me know if I’m crazy!

Wow, what a fantastic idea! However, I have a few critiques. 

When was there time for her to be corrupted? I don't remember exactly the timeline of RoW, but isn't this a day after the trial? It would've had to happen fast, assuming the other spren would notice.

Syl was also present on this scene and commented on the spren. Don't the spren notice when one is corrupted? Or was that just Ivory and Jasnah who noticed? I suppose it did take a while for them to know, but wasn't that because there were no other mistspren as a reference?

However, if it's possible that the other spren simply wouldn't know, then this is a very fascinating theory!

[teknopathetic he/him]

Are we 100% sure Shallan’s brothers aren’t physical illusions? Like 100% sure? 

I remember the fandom was suspicious they were hallucinations for a while since the brothers are rarely seen interacting with anyone outside of Shallan’s direct social sphere. Maybe that suspicion could carry overt to the sentient light weaving idea? 

 

Edited August 30, 2024 by teknopathetic

[LewsTherinTelescope]

53 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Are we 100% sure Shallan’s brothers aren’t physical illusions? Like 100% sure? 

I remember the fandom was suspicious they were hallucinations for a while since the brothers are rarely seen interacting with anyone outside of Shallan’s direct social sphere. Maybe that suspicion could carry overt to the sentient light weaving idea?

We have a viewpoint from Balat when Shallan is busy in Kharbranth, and Kaladin killed Helaran in Alethkar.