Windrunner22

I've been pondering this same train of thought @robardin, but now I am wondering if Urithiru itself could be another loophole. What if the 3-target attack is a feint for T-Odium to make a play for Urithiru using the Oathgates? What if Odium conquers Urithiru before the contest of champions? Even if Dalinar is able to win the contest, only Alethkar and Herdaz will be returned to the good guys. Urithiru would not be returned as it would be part of the lands Odium conquered prior to the deadline. Earlier in Ch.14 we get this line from Navani/Sibling: To me, this reads like foreshadowing that T-Odium's forces WILL try to infiltrate the tower. What if they send the Skybreakers through the Oathgate? As Radiants their powers will still work at the tower and they would even be "virtually invincible". They could try to sabotage the Sibling/tower's defenses with anti-light or some other kind of magical shenanigans.

This line from Abidi makes me think about another one we heard from Kelek earlier on. I've bolded what I see as the connection. Here in the first 10 or so preview chapters alone, we have two equally ancient beings both referencing rules and/or restrictions placed on Radiants. Both times through Shallan’s POV as well. It’s itching at me that this could be related, and even that Kelek and Abidi might be referencing the same rules/restrictions. What if a double bond is actually required to perform Substantiation and the ability is not available to regular Lightweavers? Shallan re-speaks a truth/re-swears an oath right before she uses the ability, and I think she was likely doing so with Testament. Perhaps the key factor that enabled her to use Substantiation is that she strengthened the ½ of her double bond that has been weakened/Deadeye’d. I also think this could explain the different perspectives we get from Kelek vs Abidi. Herald Kelek was aligned with the Radiants and knows they banned the double bond (AND therefore Substantiation) due to Fortune/Spiritual Realm strangeness or shenanigans, while all Abidi knows as a Fused is that his enemies have forbidden themselves from using a powerful ability against him. Which leads to my main point: What if the danger does not come from the ability of Substantination itself, or from using the ability? I propose that Substantiation is dangerous because it requires a double bond, and it’s the double bond specifically that is dangerous due to Fortune and Spiritual Realm strangeness/shenanigans. I’m not sure exactly what it would look like, but I imagine that meddling carelessly or mistakenly with the Spiritual Realm could lead to catastrophic negative consequences. I also think it would make sense that the Radiants don’t want every single Lightweaver glimpsing into the Spiritual Realm or experimenting with Fortune/Spiritual Realm powers. This seems a more likely reason for making a rule against Substantiation, not because it isn’t useful or the ability itself is too risky, but more so because of dangerous Spiritual Realm-y side effects of the double bond.

How they look has nothing to do with whether or not they are a "person". If it varies then it is certainly a variation between intelligent/bondable spren and those types who cannot form a Nahel bond. All radiant spren capable of a Nahel bond have their own personalities, thoughts, opinions, emotions, fears, desires, and they make their own individual choices. Honorspren, inkspren, and Cryptics alike. This is what makes them a "person" to me. Pattern certainly demonstrates these characteristics even as a Cryptic. In WOR ch.3 Jasnah tells Shallan that the Cryptics control one of the greater cites in Shadesmar. They even came up with the word Cryptic as a preferred name for themselves. Just because they are super into lies, math, patterns, etc.. does not make them less of a “person” to me. Heck, even mostly deadeyed Maya has her own personality, thoughts/opinions/emotions (preview ch.3 she never thought much of Kelek) (preview ch.7 it would be wonderful to help the lost blades), and clearly she has made her own choices (WE.CHOSE.). You don't know that they have not contemplated freedom in the past 1000 years either. You don’t know they were silent or that they didn’t want to complain to somebody. Maybe they would need a bondsmith to let them out. It could be like what The Stick mentioned and they swore an oath to stay, and can’t act against that oath. So inkspren remain at their Oathagte post for 1000s of years, how does that remove their personality? how does that eliminate their ability to think? Does that mean they have no opinions, emotions, fears, or desires? They still make choices as to who they allow to pass through the Oathgate. Not even being a deadeye Blade for 1000s of years could remove Maya’s personality, ability to think, thoughts, emotions, etc… so I fail to see how staying at the Oathgate would do so to the inkspren.

Maybe I got a little sidetracked by the idea of freedom specifically, but here is a re-focus. Is Syl wanting to be a scribe any different from Notum wanting to be a sailor? Is an Oathgate spren wanting freedom any different from the desires of Syl/Notum? I think not. I think some Oathgate spren genuinely want to be free after being abandoned, neglected, and forgotten. I think they make a legitimate choice to be Enlightened/Corrupted. Some of the Oathgate spren may choose to remain the same too, but I think Sja-Anat is genuinely offering a choice now after her experience with R-Odium forcing her to do it at the Kholinar Oathgate.

Navigation by boat specifically and enterprise are two characteristics that I think of as human. On real world Earth we are the only species to do so, but I get that what you are saying that spren who do this might not necessarily be thinking like a human. Talk me through Notum, an unbonded spren, for my benefit though. Notum wants to get his job back as a captain/sailor on the bead ocean. Does he not seek freedom in this way? Freedom to sail? Would he not be upset to never sail again? I get he might not think of freedom the same way as humans but why can’t he think of freedom in a spren way? He thinks does he not? He has no bond to change him. Would it be better to think of him as a human idea of an honorable sailor? They may be ideas but they are also alive. They have personalities and make individual choices. I think you underestimate their agency, but time will tell.

I agree that she is changing them and I think it has something to do with Connection, but I really think you are underestimating the spren here. I don't think its fair to say they don't want or understand freedom or other human concepts. In Shadesmar we see full on spren civilization. We see spren cities, spren shopkeepers (indicating a spren economy), spren sailors, spren court proceedings, etc... We see spren want/understand entrepreneurship and naval navigation so its hard for me to believe they couldn't want or understand freedom. I also think there is a general theme that the "humanity" or "person-ness" of the spren is underestimated (think Maya WE.CHOSE.), and we are seeing it explored through Syl. In the previews we learn that she wants to be a scribe. Did she have to be changed on a fundamental level to want to be a scribe? She is still honorspren is she not?

Amazing theory and awesome write-up! Thanks Lightspine! I am hoping to add some supporting evidence here. In Dawnshard ch.18, Rysn and Cord are in a confrontation with Nikli the Sleepless. Cord challenges Nikli to a duel before trying to invoke something she calls “the ancient pact of the Seven Peaks”. I think this is pretty compelling evidence of there being multiple mountain gods that the Horneaters have interacted with, at least seven of them. Are the seven peaks the gods of the seven tallest and/or most important mountains in the Horneater Peaks? Or are they seven mountains across Roshar, with potentially Ur/The Sibling being one of them?

I think your head is in the right spot here. It seems like Kal has a date with destiny and could potentially Ascend something. I think this would likely have consequences for his bond with Syl, but I’m unsure of what they would be. I also want to add some thoughts about Kal as a lot of focus has been on Syl. I see a sort of inverse relationship developing between the two. As Syl embraces human things, Kaladin is rejecting human things. Syl is appearing person sized, changing outfits, flirting, writing, wanting to be a scribe. Human things that humans do, Syl now does or wants to do. Meanwhile, we see Kal fly through the Tower instead of walking. We see him prefer to hover/float instead of standing. In the preview with his family he speaks about the heralds in an unusually casual way. He also makes a remark about how people must earn their titles, not just by their eye color. So, titles for lighteyes, reverence for heralds, the act of walking. Human things that humans do, Kal no longer does, or would prefer not to. Just something to think about, if not foreshadowing that Kal will be more spren-like by the end of WaT.

This is making me think about what Kelek said earlier, that there used to be rules against imbricated bonds. Perhaps these rules are what Abidi is referencing when he says substantiation has been “sworn off”. I think a double bond could be required for substantiation. Im fascinated by this Abidi character. Last week he wants lightweaver blood and this week he gives us some substantiation info. Is there an Investiture related reason he’s so interested in Lightweavers? Or does he just have an ancient grudge against them? Im also interested in his title, The Monarch. Is he actually an ancient singer monarch turned Fused, fighting for thousands of years to reclaim his kingdom?

I agree with you and robardin that Syl not noticing any difference in Lusintia is the biggest hole in the theory so far. I can’t think of a convincing explanation. That said, I would counter with the information we know is true. Ch.5 at least confirms that Lusintia has traveled to bond Dabbid independently. In ch.5 we also learn from Notum that the journey is actually dangerous. Spren aren’t quite themselves when they get to the Physical realm. They risk getting lost in addition to the threat posed by Odium’s forces. We also know that Lusintia was Shallan’s honorspren guide in Lasting Integrity during ROW. In ROW ch.87 she is the honorspren who Shallan tricks into giving her stormlight by faking an injury. She is unfamiliar with humans which allows Shallan to manipulate her. Perhaps Lusintia has never bonded a human before, and this explains why she is ignorant of humans. So, what could motivate Lusintia to bond a human (maybe for the first time), and make a long perilous journey all alone? Did she simply change her mind and risk it by herself? Or has she been sent on a mission by Sja-Anat after she was Enlightened/Corrupted? Perhaps with corrupted/enlighted windspren to guide her safely? The more I think about it the more I think Dabbid would fit into the Sja-Anat crew of Radiants with Renarin and Rlain. They’re so uniquely distinct. An Alethi who is no warrior, a listener among humans, and a person who is silent while others speak. All of them so overlooked by their peers and society at large. People underestimate them. Perhaps this is how Sja-Anat feels too? She is the Unmade who is different, underestimated, and overlooked by Odium?

Hi all! New here but wanted to share some thoughts after previews 7, 8, 9, were absolutely electric. I’m most interested in Shallan as she is seemingly re-swearing an oath with Testament. It’s notable that she is able to give physical form to her lightweaving only after she re-speaks her truth, and I think Brando is giving us a clue about the mechanisms of her double bond with Pattern and Testament. If she is indeed re-speaking a truth to Testament, then it seems that her truths with Testament advance her abilities with the surge of Transformation (Soulcasting/Manifesting), while her truths with Pattern advance her abilities with the surge of Illumination (Lightweaving). This could explain why we’ve seen Shallan become an elite Lightweaver, but she has struggled Soulcasting. However, I think there is an even bigger hint about Shallan here. She is talking with Radiant when she re-speaks her truth to Testament. Radiant tells her to say the words where if Kaladin were in a similar situation it would be Syl telling him to say the words, you know the words, etc… It’s almost like Radiant is fulfilling the role of Testament/spren for this truth. We know Shallan is still bonded to Testament as there was not a “clean cut”, for lack of a better word I will say the bond is frayed. I think that Radiant specifically represents the part of Shallan that is still bonded to Testament or the part of her where the bond is the least frayed. This is why Radiant plays a role here for Shallan’s re-sworn truth. This could also be the reason that the Radiant personality remains separate and is not absorbed like Veil. Perhaps if Shallan is able to absorb the Radiant personality it will restore Testament in some way. One last observation regarding Dabbid and Lusintia. Super excited for Dabbid to bond a spren, but caught something when listening on audio. Back in ch.5, Shallan specifically mentions that Lusintia does not make an appearance. In other words, Lusintia is not counted among the 12 honorspren who answer Adolin’s call to bond humans. It seems she has traveled to bond Dabbid independently, and my theory is that she has done so after being corrupted/enlightened by Sja-Anat. This could explain why Kaladin mistakes her for windspren and does not recognize her as honorspren at first. Her appearance is slightly different after corruption/enlightenment. I think it could also fit well with Dabbid’s character as yes he will become a Knight Radiant, but he will still be different in his own way. Let me know if I’m crazy!