Mid-Range Game 66: Knights of Wind and Truth

[Kasimir he/him]

7 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

I never like people trying to consolidate votes early on Aeoryi

People are trying to consolidate on Aeoryi?

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

2 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

People are trying to consolidate on Aeoryi?

No, I reworded that sentence and forgot to have it make sense. Aeoryi was trying to consolidate votes on Mat, but at this time I'm reading this more of 'wanting to hurry things along and drive discussion' than 'we should settle on an exe target halfway through the cycle and neglect alternatives'.

[STINK he/him]

Good news everyone the dentist said I really gotta start flossing (ironically enough not the dance move if only the dentist knew) but otherwise my teeth are great except for their vanity since the UK does not care for your silly teeth whitening procedures that other countries may do

Agree on Wit just seeming like new player going "huh?" rather than any funny business

Aeoryi is just keen to get going as always don't think it's alignment related rather than fun related

Other reads are that everyone else is doing their thing tbh like just look at Araris go now that's commitment to a playstyle

 

[JNV]

15 hours ago, Archer said:

Okay I figured it out. JNV said "Im just going to put a vote on Experience cause one that post is hm". I read that as them saying their vote is suspicious, when what JNV meant was that their vote is literally "hm". I've now read the status update aaaaaand. Don't know what to do about that. Thank you for pointing it out. 

 

Oh um I didnt see their status updates and idnt think to check I kinda just wanted to park on someone I wouldnt feel bad about voting in case I just forgot to come back before cycle end but now I would feel bad so Experience I guess

13 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

@JNV, you voted for experience for saying one word and dipping. Do you think that your read on exp would've changed if he didn't say anything? Why do you think that experience said, "huh"?

Ok look I got a flu shot the other day and like fully anticipated sleeping for two days like that is fully in character for me so I just wanted to park my vote on someone who like visibly was present and not effortful like if Novel was playing that would be my type of vote if you know what I mean I didnt really have a read on them but I didnt see their status updates and all that and ack on that front in general so yeah anyway Im going to read the like full day I missed please hold

On hte tie front like hm I guess the only front wed want ties on are if were trying to level up those ones who get Ideals from saving people from the vote and level up with second most votes at the same time but hm as I type this out Im kinda realising thats a bad idea too subject to unverifyiable stuff so never mind ties bad

Um my brain is kinda grinding away but not doing anything so Im going to vote on Archer for I guess just not seeming like their regular village self like theres no gambits theres no dramatic ploys like Id expect Archer to be the sorta guy to be suggesting ties to buff Windrunners or something like that but like the alarms arent sounding which sounds the alarms if you know what I mean

I found this great picture thats definitely a quokka swearing an ideal so this is me in spirit or maybe Jenel is secretly three quokkas in a trenchcoat who knows

Spoiler

Ok now RP

Jenel woke up on the rough ground to the setting sun. Had they really slept the whole day away? How strange. No one had retrieved them for the convocation, but then again, there was no one they would expect to retrieve them. They still struggled with knowing all of the other Knights' names, and they had made little effort to fraternize. Fortunately, there was a scribe who was writing a transcript for the benefit of the Blackthorn, and she didn't mind if they read over her shoulder. Still, they would have to be better. If they did nothing to contribute to the cause, they were little better than the Infiltrators. They had been chosen by their spren for their mind. 

This is not, their spren said from where she lurked in their shadow. I chose you.

Logically, they knew this. Still, there is little of the self that is not the mind. They would have to find it. 

The next person stood up to speak, and Jenel turned their attention away from introspection. Their musings would get them nowhere if they all died to the spies in their midst. They could have a crisis after all this was over.

[Kasimir he/him]

2 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

No, I reworded that sentence and forgot to have it make sense. Aeoryi was trying to consolidate votes on Mat, but at this time I'm reading this more of 'wanting to hurry things along and drive discussion' than 'we should settle on an exe target halfway through the cycle and neglect alternatives'.

Fair enough.

Re-read notes/comments focused on:

-Devo is the first to suggest arranging the second vote. Theoretically I'd like to V!lean this for proactiveness, but not fully comfortable doing so as I think Devo tends to be more mech-heavy when Evil. Not sure. It also doesn't feel fairly pro-Village, so I'm considering it a wash. (Pro.)

-Five minutes later, Archer posts about the same concern but suggests not worrying about it because there's a lot of Ideal triggers. Objects in that vote-rigging can destroy the opportunity to generate information. But Archer also wants to see how people want to approach that. This is the post I sort of get a on because of thoroughly how uncontroversial it is. It's rather muted as a V!Archer start, if it is V!Archer. (Anti.)

-Aeoryi is anti-engineering because of vote manip causing ties and ties are bad. (Anti.) Noting that this discussion is perpendicular to both Archer and Devo, and opens up a new line that's weird. 

-Side-note here that my V!read on Aeo is less based on perspectives voiced and more on vibe: I feel that E!Aeo would be less visibly hyperactive in thread because the doc would also be a decent outlet for energy. Again, possible that Aeo is just a powerwolf type Elim, but it's where I am rn.

-Thoroughly unobjectionable statement from Ravenclaw, which itself should I think be properly objectionable. (Anti.)

-Mat suggests actively using the second exe, reasoning the Elims will do it if we don't. In retrospect, I like it, and I think I like it because Mat is actively going against consensus here and I'm not sure that's a position E!Mat necessarily seeks to put on the table, keeping in mind the classic proposals E!Mat has run. So urgh. Mat. (Pro.)

-Still feel both Archer's and Aeoryi's takes on ties don't really come from a perspective I'd consider a Village perspective. Doesn't make it Evil necessarily, but I regard it as more ? with Archer than Aeoryi. 

20 hours ago, Archer said:

If the elim chooses to ride it out in the tie, they lose power at the expense of only two villagers losing theirs. One elim is worth 3 villagers in the distro, so its kind of a good trade. 

Side-comment: On further thought, I think it's better for the Elims than for us. We lose the flip, have to deal with an essentially flipless mess, and Elims are sufficiently/more coordinated such that they will have an easier time re-swearing than Villagers would. Not as convinced of this assessment. Let's be real - as much as everyone is anti-vote manip, I absolutely would vote manip or Windrunner shiz to save a strong Village read, and I believe any good Village player would do the same. Sure, we can interrogate that decision for consistency, but that's ultimately going to be the line of defence. It's just gonna be a thing. I agree the presence of vote manip is informative for us, but it does force us to play verification flip games, which isn't that fun.

Also, @Archer - Notice here you meant to frame the question as a way of eliciting reactions. How does this sit with your read of Ravenclaw?

-Ash -doesn't want a EoD mess as accidents can happen. (Anti)

-Devo - doubling down, pointing out her proposal involved a margin, and the issue of not actually having a karking flip, thank you so much Devo. (Anti)

Pro: Devo, Mat
Anti: Aeoryi, Archer, Ravenclaw, Ash

I am less wary of the pro camp (ironically) than the anti bracket. Of the anti bracket, I have the better read of Aeoryi. I am technically going back and forth about Archer - I suppose it's down to "I'd like to here more from <Archer, Ravenclaw, Ash>" territory. Stick principle again I suppose.

[Aeoryi she/her]

It's a new day

It is a new day

Okay what have people been doing

6 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Fair enough.

Re-read notes/comments focused on:

-Devo is the first to suggest arranging the second vote. Theoretically I'd like to V!lean this for proactiveness, but not fully comfortable doing so as I think Devo tends to be more mech-heavy when Evil. Not sure. It also doesn't feel fairly pro-Village, so I'm considering it a wash. (Pro.)

-Five minutes later, Archer posts about the same concern but suggests not worrying about it because there's a lot of Ideal triggers. Objects in that vote-rigging can destroy the opportunity to generate information. But Archer also wants to see how people want to approach that. This is the post I sort of get a on because of thoroughly how uncontroversial it is. It's rather muted as a V!Archer start, if it is V!Archer. (Anti.)

-Aeoryi is anti-engineering because of vote manip causing ties and ties are bad. (Anti.) Noting that this discussion is perpendicular to both Archer and Devo, and opens up a new line that's weird. 

-Side-note here that my V!read on Aeo is less based on perspectives voiced and more on vibe: I feel that E!Aeo would be less visibly hyperactive in thread because the doc would also be a decent outlet for energy. Again, possible that Aeo is just a powerwolf type Elim, but it's where I am rn.

-Thoroughly unobjectionable statement from Ravenclaw, which itself should I think be properly objectionable. (Anti.)

-Mat suggests actively using the second exe, reasoning the Elims will do it if we don't. In retrospect, I like it, and I think I like it because Mat is actively going against consensus here and I'm not sure that's a position E!Mat necessarily seeks to put on the table, keeping in mind the classic proposals E!Mat has run. So urgh. Mat. (Pro.)

-Still feel both Archer's and Aeoryi's takes on ties don't really come from a perspective I'd consider a Village perspective. Doesn't make it Evil necessarily, but I regard it as more ? with Archer than Aeoryi. 

Side-comment: On further thought, I think it's better for the Elims than for us. We lose the flip, have to deal with an essentially flipless mess, and Elims are sufficiently/more coordinated such that they will have an easier time re-swearing than Villagers would. Not as convinced of this assessment. Let's be real - as much as everyone is anti-vote manip, I absolutely would vote manip or Windrunner shiz to save a strong Village read, and I believe any good Village player would do the same. Sure, we can interrogate that decision for consistency, but that's ultimately going to be the line of defence. It's just gonna be a thing. I agree the presence of vote manip is informative for us, but it does force us to play verification flip games, which isn't that fun.

Also, @Archer - Notice here you meant to frame the question as a way of eliciting reactions. How does this sit with your read of Ravenclaw?

-Ash -doesn't want a EoD mess as accidents can happen. (Anti)

-Devo - doubling down, pointing out her proposal involved a margin, and the issue of not actually having a karking flip, thank you so much Devo. (Anti)

Pro: Devo, Mat
Anti: Aeoryi, Archer, Ravenclaw, Ash

I am less wary of the pro camp (ironically) than the anti bracket. Of the anti bracket, I have the better read of Aeoryi. I am technically going back and forth about Archer - I suppose it's down to "I'd like to here more from <Archer, Ravenclaw, Ash>" territory. Stick principle again I suppose.

I mean I would give you a reads list but eeeeeehhhh-

You can have a depression picture instead

Spoiler

EDIT: will provide reads depending on how important the art lesson is today

Edited November 6, 2023 by Aeoryi

[Kasimir he/him]

25 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

I mean I would give you a reads list but eeeeeehhhh-

With all due respect, I would appreciate one, but I kinda need reads or content more from the players I'm struggling to formulate a read on  

[Archer he/him]

That feeling when there was too many posts to respond to on mobile so you wait until the morning and there's more posts you need to quote 

16 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Legitimately don't know what you're getting at here. Maybe I haven't read things close enough. Is there a reason you're against formally using the second vote? I think certainty is always better, for both alignments yes, but elims start with more of it and I'd like to even it out in any way I can. (To be clear, I'm not advocating for a hyper-focused effort, I'd just prefer more than no thought go into who falls second. I don't think letting the trains fall naturally will work super well because everyone knows what the second place vote does and that will affect things whether we talk about it or not).

Not anything that specific, it just feels elimmy. Like he had nothing to say but wanted to post because he felt obligated to post. It didn't feel natural to me. The SU is regrettable but I don't exactly want to ignore him the entire game . I wish he'd just not signed up but what's done is done

I do feel that a concerted effort to use the 2nd place function will make EOD less valuable. But where I think the thought process goes is: gut yes > think it through and decide no. And a villager probably ends up going through the whole thought process while an elim sticks with the simple gut reaction. (Or someone who isn't jaded by SE village failures goes with the easy answer). You specifically saying you're going with your instinctive reaction made me think you were doing what you thought a villager would do. 

I've mostly been stalling to vote for you though because I was waiting to see if the classic Mat Tell panned out. We had the setup with the announcement of busyness, but I was waiting for you to repeat it to be confident that was the Tell. e!You usually says it a few times, but you didn't. 

16 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

If I may ask, why ashbringer? What has ashbringer done?

-Self aware about why I might have voted him 

-Reactive to my vote (has tried to reframe it, has mentioned it, has been more active than I thought he'd be in a way that makes me wonder if he's trying to undermine an inactivity-based vote) 

14 hours ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

How do you expect to hold players accountable for vote manipulation?

My hot take on this is I suspect the two roles that get Ideals by messing with the exe are probably village. It's too easy for an elim to be rewarded for something they would want to do anyway vs it tees up a villager conundrum: help your team at your own expense or be greedy and hurt your team? 

I do suspect e!Elsecaller to give them a bit of vote manip and an easy WGG opportunity, but that's only a vote manip threat once every three cycles. 

In other words, we probably don't need to hold vote manipulators accountable because it'll mostly be friendly fire because that's the funniest distro option for the GM to pick.   

Quote

[I lost my Devo quote of her saying I'm sus for considering voting an inactive]

[insert witty retort centered around the idea that there should be a little pressure on them, even if its theoretical] At least one elim is probably low activity, so you're likely defending some evil by proxy right now! Traitor! Ashbringer Devo

13 hours ago, Ravenclawjedi42 said:

I think that vote manip is something that should be used sparingly by the village. The democratic function that exists in this game is usually a good one, and by village I think it should only be used in ties and/or very close votes where the person with vote manip is near certain that it is one of the people. And, of course, when they could/will be voted out. The elims will use it to defend themselves, obviously, and also sometimes to arouse suspicion on others by making it seem like they have vote manip.

13 hours ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

They should post more :p. Ravenclaw's most recent post seems overly dictionary, if you know what I mean. You know my opinion on Exp. My opinion is essentially the same as the LG. This activity level at this stage is typical for Araris/JNV/Ash.

Agreed, Mat, but they stick to that trend even after being called out on it, which is fairly unreactive of them. I'm leaning towards thinking people are just asking them bad questions 

13 hours ago, Kasimir said:

So I've sort of said why wrt the Stick Principle explanation, but my meta read actually skews the other way - E!Exp IMO plays a bit on the hyperactive and reckless side. He won't keep a dead thread alive, but he doubleposted in QF68 early on (which really should've had the effect of undermining his fakeclaim) just because he impulsively thought up a plan and decided to go with it. It's defeated if Exp is just out of time here, but barring that world, I'd be a bit surprised if he deliberately chose to try to play low profile here.

And later thread mentioned the status update. That could be a defeater, yeah.

 

You could argue this is them being heavily engaged relative to their capacity right now, but I'd like to avoid having that discussion. That's what the Dustbringer is for

13 hours ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

I wasn’t even going to give you that it was a good place to start, but the following two paragraphs (and the rest I deleted) actually made me change my mind. At the very least I understand your POV on this even if we’re using slightly different definitions.

This looks significant. Mat reconsidering his stance is either e!him knowing enough to back out of a losing argument or v!him being engaged enough to care what he's saying

Definitely one of the two :D. 

12 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

Yeah I sorta went ahead and compared all the roles before the game even started sorry bro.

I trust you're doing something useful with that info in PMs

4 hours ago, Kasimir said:

@Archer - Have your views on Mat specifically shifted?

pfft I was never voting for him, my suspicions don't count. He's totally village 

(gut still says hrm, but the evidence is pointing towards villager)

1 hour ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

I never like people trying to consolidate votes early on Aeoryi but it does seem like she's trying to solve the game and figure things out.

Aeoryi reminds me of myself when I got into SE. I think she could pull of a high-intensity act and get easy village cred for it. Her posting the pre-written roles comparison that didn't have anything actionable connected to it actually made me pause because I'm wondering if it's just extreme grinding for cred. 

But they seemed to genuinely feel bad about accusing certain people for shoddy reasons, and I think that's a villager mindset. 

If we were to choose a 2nd place person, I'd support her candidacy. I trust her enough for that. I also don't think she'll hit the RP threshold, so it elevates someone to the same level as everyone else, rather than stacking our eggs in one basket. I know we have a lot of protection in play, but I'd rather avoid setting up obvious NK targets. 

Quote

JNV: so Im going to vote on Archer for I guess just not seeming like their regular village self like theres no gambits theres no dramatic ploys

tbf I put my efforts into figuring out role collaboration opportunities, but didn't share them publicly. I do like the honesty about the Experience vote

 

Reads list before Kas pings me for one:

There's a Few Very Specific Reasons I Trust You But My Gut Supports It: Aeoryi, Kas, Archer

What Were Your Reads Again?: Stink, Psiti?tēebe?t, Raven

Conflicted: Mat, Araris, JNV

Am I Metagaming that the GM Would Put RPers on the Elim Team Too Hard? (Nah.): Ashbringer, Devo

Dustbringer Target Practice: Experience, TJ

 

[Fifth Scholar he/him]

Please welcome @Amanuensis who is pinch-hitting for @Experience!

[Mat he/him]

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Acknowledging you lean V on Raven and Wit, do you have a current E read? Still Exp?

I mean, yes, but as nothing has happened since we last were talking about that I don't feel like it counts. Rereading I haven't loved JNV's votes (more on that below) and I kind of feel bad reading Stink as evil for posting more game related thoughts than he did all last game but that's where my brain is going.

Mostly I'm doing the thing where I'm deciding who I read village and am left with a PoE of null type people. So far the former list is something like Aeoryi/you/Ravenclaw/Wit with a potential Archer.

1 hour ago, JNV said:

Um my brain is kinda grinding away but not doing anything so Im going to vote on Archer for I guess just not seeming like their regular village self like theres no gambits theres no dramatic ploys like Id expect Archer to be the sorta guy to be suggesting ties to buff Windrunners or something like that but like the alarms arent sounding which sounds the alarms if you know what I mean

I don't like this vote, really, because it's unfairly considering how playstyles work. This is actually something I frequently run into with Archer, ironically enough, because he loves to assume I play by my own meta textbook and am incapable of changing playstyles (see: his post right above this one) and even when he comes to the conclusion that I'm village it's a tad annoying  But I don't think it's fair to assume that v!Archer will post a crazy thing or whatever. Kas touched on this too and I just think it's wrong /shrug

I've been null on Archer so far but I do like his recent post, his incorrectly formulaic solving of me aside :P.

JNV

Aman! Welcome! Hopefully you clear up Exp's slot for us all :D. :D. :D.

[Kasimir he/him]

52 minutes ago, Archer said:

I do feel that a concerted effort to use the 2nd place function will make EOD less valuable. But where I think the thought process goes is: gut yes > think it through and decide no.

This is odd to me as my gut was no, this is a bad idea, stop trying to engineer the exe.

52 minutes ago, Archer said:

In other words, we probably don't need to hold vote manipulators accountable because it'll mostly be friendly fire because that's the funniest distro option for the GM to pick.   

Really not interested in distro guessing until we have more info. It's a Fifth game, one way or another, it'll be a cursed distro, Elim DBs and SBs absolutely possible because it's a Fifth game. This is the sick chullson who gave us Tyrian games with E!Seeker and no V!Seeker, and E!Coinshot. Once we have a couple of flips or more info from interactions, I'll be more willing to theorise.

Saying this more as a caution that I wouldn't base too much on theorising right now. We just don't know enough.

52 minutes ago, Archer said:

You could argue this is them being heavily engaged relative to their capacity right now, but I'd like to avoid having that discussion. That's what the Dustbringer is for

Not based on his flamboyant E!play, no. I'll admit his refusal to ask for a PH and insistence on sticking it out despite low activity pings me a little, because I know he enjoys E!play more than V!play. But one way or another, I don't really want to reason too heavily based on a SU. I also don't think that's what the Dustbringer is for - that's what a freakin' PH army is for. We have at least five PHs for this game: Stick, Aman, Wiz, Whysper, Violet. There is absolutely zero excuse for inactivity in this game of all games. I'd add TJ in this group - they should be resolved by the filter, and the PH system, and Fifth mentioned he'll use it by the second cycle of inactivity.

Dustbringer is better off shooting the secondary exe if no one is cool with that player getting an ability, or shooting a suspicion, or a lurker to disincentivise that last as an Elim strat. Neither Exp nor TJ really fit the description of lurking under the radar.

Bolding as this is a specific question I'd like answered. In my game (QF66), you expected the Elims to be among the RPers to try to gain the Signet. Do you expect the same behaviour here, i.e. Elims are engaging in Ideal-gaining activity?

52 minutes ago, Archer said:

Reads list before Kas pings me for one:

Thank you for helping me

Frankly, your start pinged me a bit for the reasons JNV described, but my gut isn't fully on board with voting you for whatever reason, so I have been looking for more fuel for reads.

Edited to add:

32 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Please welcome @Amanuensis who is pinch-hitting for @Experience!

Spoiler

 

Edited to add 2:

PSA - if I'm dead next cycle, as is my usual wont, I'd suggest going back and looking at the players who are gunning Ideals. I think the voting and RP ideals are especially easily achieved publicly (less so for RP), and given Fifth Ideal Elims get an extra life, I think there's incentive to gun. It's not necessarily damning but I would take the pool of all players who ticked both checkboxes for this as a starting point as it's unlikely to be pure. I think there's still say under eight hours to go, so things may change before then, e.g. last minute Devo voting, but don't forget about the suspect pool next cycle!

Current State of Reads:

: My, my, this here Kasimir guy

: Aeoryi, Araris

: JNV, Mat, Wit

: Archer???, STINK, Devo, Aman, TJ

: Ravenclaw, Ash

If I haven't suggested already, the Araris read actually isn't a bro read, though I can't discount bro goggles being involved.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Kasimir

[STINK he/him]

That pinch does explain the constant reading huh

[Aeoryi she/her]

27 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Please welcome @Amanuensis who is pinch-hitting for @Experience!

O.O

Hi aman

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

With all due respect, I would appreciate one, but I kinda need reads or content more from the players I'm struggling to formulate a read on  

Spoiler

Reads:

1. People I wouldn't want to exe today:

- Kas

2. People we don't get a reasonable amount of info on from exing, but I don't exactly V!read either:

- TJ, JNV, STINK, Aman, Wit (barely)

3. People I would be willing to vote on:

- Ravenclawjedi42, Mat, Archer, 

4. People who just sorta are sitting between tiers:

- Araris, Ashbringer (-), Devo (+),

I don't want to vote anyone yet but currently I'm leaning towards voting Ravenclawjedi42.

1 minute ago, STINK said:

That pinch does explain the constant reading huh

yeah

[Mat he/him]

5 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

I don't want to vote anyone yet but currently I'm leaning towards voting Ravenclawjedi42.

How did you feel about their responses to you? I found them to be more put-together than I’d have expected from a new player elim under interrogation, but that isn’t going to be true for every new player.

[Kasimir he/him]

10 minutes ago, STINK said:

That pinch does explain the constant reading huh

You were in the Discord mate, you knew he was in the PH list and might be tapped

I am...potentially willing to be talked into a Devo side, but I feel the proactive, early bringing up of the second exe issue does give her a tiny bit of credit in my eyes, even if I also think it's washed by the mech discussion issues. RE: Archer's Elim control/ seeking certainty views, I don't see E!Devo trying to coalesce/control consensus this early, before anyone else got on board.

[STINK he/him]

13 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

You were in the Discord mate, you knew he was in the PH list and might be tapped

All beings and messages outside of the game do not exist to the paltry mind of TBD

[Aeoryi she/her]

1 minute ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

How did you feel about their responses to you? I found them to be more put-together than I’d have expected from a new player elim under interrogation, but that isn’t going to be true for every new player.

I don't think their responses stood out. They had to be proded a few times in order to get something going. Whether this is the help of Elim teamates or simply just some general thoughts it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

I don't think it's a huge e!indicator, but I dunno I expected raven to be more... In tune with the thread?

Then again, raven and I have both played the same number of games. So I wouldn't really call them new, although I'm not here to judge how others learn.

Last long game we had the "kill the talkers" problem- after tunneling on Araris and then mat dying, village discussion was DEAD D4. And so were we. Just want to avoid something like that again. But it appears we'll have less inactivity this game. 

I would like to hear more from wit though, and maybe some game related thoughts from STINK- I don't know how either of them Elim but talking is always good 

55 minutes ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

I mean, yes, but as nothing has happened since we last were talking about that I don't feel like it counts. Rereading I haven't loved JNV's votes (more on that below) and I kind of feel bad reading Stink as evil for posting more game related thoughts than he did all last game but that's where my brain is going.

Mostly I'm doing the thing where I'm deciding who I read village and am left with a PoE of null type people. So far the former list is something like Aeoryi/you/Ravenclaw/Wit with a potential Archer.

I don't like this vote, really, because it's unfairly considering how playstyles work. This is actually something I frequently run into with Archer, ironically enough, because he loves to assume I play by my own meta textbook and am incapable of changing playstyles (see: his post right above this one) and even when he comes to the conclusion that I'm village it's a tad annoying  But I don't think it's fair to assume that v!Archer will post a crazy thing or whatever. Kas touched on this too and I just think it's wrong /shrug

I've been null on Archer so far but I do like his recent post, his incorrectly formulaic solving of me aside :P.

JNV

Aman! Welcome! Hopefully you clear up Exp's slot for us all :D. :D. :D.

The problem with a JNV lynch is that even if JNV is elim, we don't gain a whole lot of information from the...  2(?) Posts they made? 

But I do agree JNV won't be kicking up activity in the foreseeable future.

Question time:

@Ashbringer, who would you shot (if you could)? Would you be more supportive of Archer's "shot the inactives" or Kas' secondary exe kill idea?

@JNV, what's your opinion on mat?

@Ravenclawjedi42, what are your thoughts on the roles around? What's the most powerful role in your eyes and why?

... I can't ping wit ...

@Araris Valerian, what's your opinion on Devo?

@Kasimir, why are you V!reading Araris? Is there any particular reason besides him being your bro?

@Matrim's Dice, what's your reads on archer, raven and Araris?

@Amanuensis, do you have any thoughts that you want to share that you noticed when you read through the thread?

@Archer, why are inactives "Dustbringer target practice"? Do you think Dustbringers should shoot (and potentially waste) their kill on inactives?

@STINK, what's your stance on ideals?

@Devotary of Spontaneity, what's one (or more) post that stands out for you this cycle? Why?

Lemme know if I missed anyone

[Kasimir he/him]

1 minute ago, Aeoryi said:

@Kasimir, why are you V!reading Araris? Is there any particular reason besides him being your bro?

I can't go into detail at this early juncture as it involves PMs, but in general, a proactive attitude towards solving the game that I judged much less likely to emerge from an Elim/Elim mindset.

As much as I joke about bro reads, just as neither JNV nor TJ had been default bro reads, it usually doesn't influence a direct read unless it's one of those things like my tendency to give Aman more chances than I probably would another player.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Whoops just queued a Valorant game without realizing I got tagged in be back in ~40

[Mat he/him]

10 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

I don't think their responses stood out. They had to be proded a few times in order to get something going. Whether this is the help of Elim teamates or simply just some general thoughts it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

I don't think it's a huge e!indicator, but I dunno I expected raven to be more... In tune with the thread?

Fair enough I guess. I read that as new player hesitance (something you never had ) and while I didn't like how their first response was constructed, I thought their response to me about it and their subsequent posts were consistent enough that I accepted their explanation. In my experience, elim teammates generally don't ghost write new player's posts enough for it to be a tell, so while I could see it either way I definitely lean village.

13 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

@Kasimir, why are you V!reading Araris? Is there any particular reason besides him being your bro?

Was going to ask this, thanks

14 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

@Matrim's Dice, what's your reads on archer, raven and Araris?

You picked two out of three players I've already given reads of xD For Raven, see above, for Archer, as I alluded to in a previous post, a light village, but sort of in protest of JNV's vote. I like his most recent post but can't decide if his routine solving of me is an elim checking the box or a villager falling into the same pattern. I think I lean village on Araris for the same reason (I liked his analysis post) but that's totally an effort read that is probably unwarranted and I should really go read his post again. Plus I kind of just trust Kas :P.

10 minutes ago, Amanuensis said:

Whoops just queued a Valorant game without realizing I got tagged in be back in ~40

Pshhhhhh definitely code for "I want to be in the elim doc first" /jk

[Kasimir he/him]

8 minutes ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

Plus I kind of just trust Kas :P.

I don't!

There is so much rust here I could open a rust shop and I've been missing for what, just three games? 

Get your own reads smhhhh 

[Aeoryi she/her]

Just now, Kasimir said:

I don't!

There is so much rust here I could open a rust shop and I've been missing for what, just three games? 

Get your own reads smhhhh 

Rust and ruin. Rust and ruin.

9 minutes ago, Matrim&#x27;s Dice said:

Fair enough I guess. I read that as new player hesitance (something you never had ) and while I didn't like how their first response was constructed, I thought their response to me about it and their subsequent posts were consistent enough that I accepted their explanation. In my experience, elim teammates generally don't ghost write new player's posts enough for it to be a tell, so while I could see it either way I definitely lean village.

Was going to ask this, thanks

You picked two out of three players I've already given reads of xD For Raven, see above, for Archer, as I alluded to in a previous post, a light village, but sort of in protest of JNV's vote. I like his most recent post but can't decide if his routine solving of me is an elim checking the box or a villager falling into the same pattern. I think I lean village on Araris for the same reason (I liked his analysis post) but that's totally an effort read that is probably unwarranted and I should really go read his post again. Plus I kind of just trust Kas :P.

Pshhhhhh definitely code for "I want to be in the elim doc first" /jk

JNV was much more involved last game (and pocketed basically everyone) but this game they've gone back to the normal, JNV levels of activity. As Kas said previously, it is a WIM for JNV Elim, but they've acknowledged that they post more as Elim and so that kinda ruins that meta read.

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

This is odd to me as my gut was no, this is a bad idea, stop trying to engineer the exe.

Really not interested in distro guessing until we have more info. It's a Fifth game, one way or another, it'll be a cursed distro, Elim DBs and SBs absolutely possible because it's a Fifth game. This is the sick chullson who gave us Tyrian games with E!Seeker and no V!Seeker, and E!Coinshot. Once we have a couple of flips or more info from interactions, I'll be more willing to theorise.

Saying this more as a caution that I wouldn't base too much on theorising right now. We just don't know enough.

Not based on his flamboyant E!play, no. I'll admit his refusal to ask for a PH and insistence on sticking it out despite low activity pings me a little, because I know he enjoys E!play more than V!play. But one way or another, I don't really want to reason too heavily based on a SU. I also don't think that's what the Dustbringer is for - that's what a freakin' PH army is for. We have at least five PHs for this game: Stick, Aman, Wiz, Whysper, Violet. There is absolutely zero excuse for inactivity in this game of all games. I'd add TJ in this group - they should be resolved by the filter, and the PH system, and Fifth mentioned he'll use it by the second cycle of inactivity.

Dustbringer is better off shooting the secondary exe if no one is cool with that player getting an ability, or shooting a suspicion, or a lurker to disincentivise that last as an Elim strat. Neither Exp nor TJ really fit the description of lurking under the radar.

Bolding as this is a specific question I'd like answered. In my game (QF66), you expected the Elims to be among the RPers to try to gain the Signet. Do you expect the same behaviour here, i.e. Elims are engaging in Ideal-gaining activity?

Thank you for helping me

Frankly, your start pinged me a bit for the reasons JNV described, but my gut isn't fully on board with voting you for whatever reason, so I have been looking for more fuel for reads.

Edited to add:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Edited to add 2:

PSA - if I'm dead next cycle, as is my usual wont, I'd suggest going back and looking at the players who are gunning Ideals. I think the voting and RP ideals are especially easily achieved publicly (less so for RP), and given Fifth Ideal Elims get an extra life, I think there's incentive to gun. It's not necessarily damning but I would take the pool of all players who ticked both checkboxes for this as a starting point as it's unlikely to be pure. I think there's still say under eight hours to go, so things may change before then, e.g. last minute Devo voting, but don't forget about the suspect pool next cycle!

Current State of Reads:

: My, my, this here Kasimir guy

: Aeoryi, Araris

: JNV, Mat, Wit

: Archer???, STINK, Devo, Aman, TJ

: Ravenclaw, Ash

If I haven't suggested already, the Araris read actually isn't a bro read, though I can't discount bro goggles being involved.

Why does everyone hate ash again? 

Sorry I swear this was explained but I want to hear it from you.

Also, I find it funny that you mention the troll-ness of fifth's distro when you ran LG74 (the bootleg tyrian falls) with 2 Elim seekers.

[Kasimir he/him]

Just now, Aeoryi said:

As Kas said previously, it is a WIM for JNV Elim, but they've acknowledged that they post more as Elim and so that kinda ruins that meta read.

It does, but I take the balancing factor to be where they've tried to work more as a Villager but just end up lapsing back into inactivity - it suggests it's a bit more robust as a tell than something JNV can just immediately resolve.

1 minute ago, Aeoryi said:

Why does everyone hate ash again? 

Sorry I swear this was explained but I want to hear it from you.

At this point, it's a PoE issue for me. I theoretically agree with Ash, but feel the opinion he offered (anti-second exe fixing) was very safe, if also very sensible. IMO the Elims are more likely to offer the safe/standard opinion than run against thread opinion and dig their heels in, which is why I was focusing on the anti camp since the second exe place issue became a big deal in thread. Add that to his low profile in the game so far, and I feel he needs more pressure, minimally. I'm wary of lurking under the radar as a play profile, in a nutshell, and Ash is one of the players in that set. It's counterbalanced by the fact I like the tone of his first post, and also don't really want to C1 Ash on his first game back.

There are some more indicative V!Ash tells but I haven't seen them yet. This previous sentence does not itself indicate E!Ash, just that I haven't yet seen the V!Ash tells I know of, so can't give him credit for them.

tldr; combination of low profile + hasn't done anything Village yet, so indifferent to his dying, minus the bit where I liked his very first post and don't want to C1 him on his first game back.

5 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Also, I find it funny that you mention the troll-ness of fifth's distro when you ran LG74 (the bootleg tyrian falls) with 2 Elim seekers.

Who do you think made that distro?

[Aeoryi she/her]

6 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

It does, but I take the balancing factor to be where they've tried to work more as a Villager but just end up lapsing back into inactivity - it suggests it's a bit more robust as a tell than something JNV can just immediately resolve.

At this point, it's a PoE issue for me. I theoretically agree with Ash, but feel the opinion he offered (anti-second exe fixing) was very safe, if also very sensible. IMO the Elims are more likely to offer the safe/standard opinion than run against thread opinion and dig their heels in, which is why I was focusing on the anti camp since the second exe place issue became a big deal in thread. Add that to his low profile in the game so far, and I feel he needs more pressure, minimally. I'm wary of lurking under the radar as a play profile, in a nutshell, and Ash is one of the players in that set. It's counterbalanced by the fact I like the tone of his first post, and also don't really want to C1 Ash on his first game back.

There are some more indicative V!Ash tells but I haven't seen them yet. This previous sentence does not itself indicate E!Ash, just that I haven't yet seen the V!Ash tells I know of, so can't give him credit for them.

tldr; combination of low profile + hasn't done anything Village yet, so indifferent to his dying, minus the bit where I liked his very first post and don't want to C1 him on his first game back.

Who do you think made that distro?

Hm.

Ash is definitely lurking under the radar, agree with you on that.

Not sure if that warrants a vote, though.

Also, I'm pretty sure you made that distro.

[Kasimir he/him]

11 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Also, I'm pretty sure you made that distro.

Nope. Fifth did. There's somewhere in the Elim doc where he reacts to realising he'd forgotten it was basically his distro I was running, and no, I wouldn't have done it straight up but Fifth joined last minute and the distro was too good for me to pass it up, so I just went with it.

11 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Not sure if that warrants a vote, though.

Different voting philosophies then, and views about how voting generates pressure and information. In general, as long as a player isn't a V read, my view has usually been that you should be willing to vote them, or to let them die.

Edited to add:

I guess in defense of my GMing, he'd made that distro one to two years ago, so it wasn't the worst shot in the world to assume he'd just forgotten it existed. Given he spent most of the game panicking about a non-existent V!Seeker, it wasn't the worst GMing call to have made.

Edited to add 2:

I guess since I shouldn't be lazy, even though this does veer dangerously into the exe/no-exe approximate area - I'm willing to accept I have pretty low thresholds for willingness to vote a player, since I consider anyone fair game as long as I don't V (or vaguely null+) read them.

In general, my view is that a discussed lynch with votes that unpredictably remain on players and that are distributed (scattered) rather than pre-consolidated early creates pressure and keeps players on their toes, reducing the places an Elim has to hide. The exe is the Village's best power, ignoring all the role BS. It's the one thing you gotta do, one way or another.

Now, V!TKN and I have clashed before and it just boils down to the fact we have different risk appetites. I'm okay with chasing wild leads or hunches or gut or meta reads or just lurkers/profiling issues on C1-C2 that aren't smoking guns. V!TKN has argued before because he wants more certainty. I get that, and I get it's an appetite difference in the end. My view is just that you can't sit back and wait for pressure. Someone's got to get the ball rolling, one way or another. A lot of C1 is pretty specious, and sometimes even on C4, after a string of successes, it's like playing C1 all over again where you have to do the legwork.

You probably don't endorse the sitting back camp since you've been voting early, but that's my view of why pushing matters and why I'm fine being pretty damn aggressive in voting. My counterbalance is that I will also rethink a vote to death and shift it based on my updated set of beliefs because I have a powerful aversion to voting Villagers by accident, so want to be sure. In that light, one of my strongest E!tells is extreme vote stability (probably MR62 but I've actually scrubbed that game from my memory because, ew.)

Edited November 6, 2023 by Kasimir
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