Mid-Range Game 66: Knights of Wind and Truth

[Aeoryi she/her]

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Kas, I know they’re your bros, but you can’t v read someone who hasn’t posted  

I mean you technically can't e!read them either

[Archer he/him]

One month ago.

The cave is filled with smoke. The dull-red of embers offers meager light. They hiss as broth from a bubbling cauldron overflows. 
Smelling food, a small, furry mammal emerges from a crack in the stone wall. It tenses, torn between the pursuit of sustenance and the avoidance of risk. A minute passes, then two. Finally, it bolts towards the fire, but is snatched by metal tongs. 
“Right on schedule,” hums the alchemist. He thrusts his catch into the pot, smashing a lid on to cover it. “More heats, more heats.”
On the shelf behind his hunched frame, bottles glint as they reflect the growing fire. They hold saps and tars, acids and poisons. The alchemist runs his fingers along them deftly, having no need for sight after months of subterranean living. He settles on an elixir. Swirls, uncorks, and pours into the brew. The bubbles stop as the liquid rapidly cools, almost freezing in a matter of seconds. 
“STICK!” He plunges a metal rod into the concoction, scrapes the bottom of the pot, and pulls it out with a wad of white gunk sticking to its end. “STICK!”
His tongs prod the substance. His figure fades into the smoke as the onlooker’s view pulls out, through darkened tunnels, back towards the surface. Almost far enough away not to hear his screams as he finds fault in his work. Almost, but not quite. 
“…won’t stick…”

2 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

Okay here be why ties are horrendous:

1. In a tie, you lose your roles. Ties are very avoidable. But vote manip exists. Let's quickly not that about 40% of the roles in this game have vote-manip, but only wind runners and Elsecaller have them now (ideals needed for bondsmith And lightweilders.

2. This is not the most pressing issue now, but the closer we get to exeLo the easier (and more devastating) the tie will be to make. With vote manip (of Elims) it will be even easier.

4. due to these reasons, village windrunners and elsecallers should refrain from using their vote manip, unless a windruner wants to break a tie for an ideal to get that nice role-block surge, but still try to not use vote manip. With the fact that 40% of the distro or so has vote manip, expect some vote manip on the Elim team, which means exeLo could be closer than you thunk (vote manip generally essentially counts for 2 elims at exeLo)

4. I'm going to kindly suggest we consolidate our votes. A 2-3 vote difference from the top trains would be preferable if we are going to try and utilize the second train. 

5. Maybe if you want you could join me on JNV temporarily? They've viewed the thread a few times but haven't replied to anything but it is a c1 vote so take that as you will but yeah sure yeah scattered votessuck we don't want those

 

Just my thoughts on voting.

I like the boldness of the vote move request, but I'd rather spread the votes than consolidate at this stage. Ashbringer showed enough paranoid self-awareness that I'd like to see more from them before changing my vote. 

I agree with your assumption that the elims will have vote manip and that they'll prioritize ensuring the exe leads to deaths over allowing ties to go through. But I think the likeliest outcome of rigging the votes to aim for a very specific outcome is we can either whip the votes to control who dies or who gets second place, but not both. The elims have enough leverage to get their preferred outcome from one of those. If they choose not engage, then we get no reads from them in the way that we normally would from a close EoD. 

And I don't think ties are as bad as you present them as. If we put three people into a tie, the elims can vote manip their player out of it and harm two villagers. But then they'll have to explain the vote manipulation and we'll have avoided a villager death. If the elim chooses to ride it out in the tie, they lose power at the expense of only two villagers losing theirs. One elim is worth 3 villagers in the distro, so its kind of a good trade. 

My working assumption was that the elims would seize on the path of more certainty, but I'm trying to reconcile that with lack of SE meta familiarity. I think the fresh eyed approach might be to prefer your proposal, so I'm side-eyeing Mat more than I am you for this. 

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

According to the Stick Principle, I'd agree, but meta leads me to lean against it. Net result is a null read.

Feel it's a good way to let Elims get away with shoddy votes too easily IMO, e.g. I can easily leave my vote on you, and then if challenged, say "Sure, I figured Mat's a decent player so didn't mind seeing him get an extra Ideal." 

 

-Gut to Archer for opening question. Feels more prone to fence-sitting than V!Archer, who cuts a harsher position to stir controversy and discussion.

 

Stick principle?

I worry about the same thing.

Why not vote me then :P. 

1 hour ago, Kasimir said:

 

I'm just going to say this upfront as I know JNV was a bit put-off by the punctuation dig: meta reads are part of how I roll on C1.

Kas-JNV unlikely to be e-e because e!Kas would have mentioned it was a PM convo to defend against the suggestion it was an elim doc one

18 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Kas, I know they’re your bros, but you can’t v read someone who hasn’t posted  

I put the under/over on Kas PMs at 3.5. I'd take the under, but only because the thread has been quiet so far. 

By the way, I believe PMs can have multiple people in them, which is probably the way to go if you're using them to feel people out

[TheRavenHasLanded he/him]

SRY I WASNT ON AT ALL

[JNV]

11 minutes ago, Archer said:

By the way, I believe PMs can have multiple people in them, which is probably the way to go if you're using them to feel people out

Quote

• PMs are semi-open. Each player may create one PM with a player of his choice each cycle. This does not take an action slot.

The way this is phrased kinda implies otherwise like a player not any number of palyers you know

Anyway I was going to vote Aeoryi for being snippy about my typing style but they retracted so I wont so hm Im just going to put a vote on Experience cause one that post is hm two mech incentives to vote and Im like definitely going to forget so yeha

Anyway heres some RP and Ill look at more of whats been said in a bit I got my flu shot and need to nap I think

 

Jeneh sat at the fringes of the camp, watching as other Knights dueled and trained. They felt little drive to join the rest. Most of them were selected from actual soldiers who had prior training and experience with combat. Jeneh... wasn't. They were just a person who had made a promise. An Oath. But the value of Soulcasting to an active military force were invaluable, and they could help where others could not. This did not mean that they were suited for war. The grip of the sword felt foreign to them, and they did not have the endurance to train for hours on end despite the buoying effects of Stormlight. They couldn't learn by lounging about, but... perhaps tomorrow. Not today. Not when they had already spent the morning tripping over their own feet awkwardly as they tried to master an appropriate stance. Besides, they could always say that they were watching for those spies that Callar had spoken of. The very thought of such infiltrators was... unpleasant. Oaths were Oaths, and they had sworn loyalty. But they trusted Callar, as much as anyone could be trusted. They just had to hope that truth would show its face before the Knights tore themselves apart.

[STINK he/him]

Hey gang your guy kinda got a headache so won't be partaking in deep deep deep mechanics talks around the campfire until I get a nice good long sleep but I'm here and hanging around don't you fret your heads about inactivity

Fret your heads about my insane dancing skills though TBD is gonna be really good at breakdancing

[Ravenclawjedi42]

11 minutes ago, JNV said:

The way this is phrased kinda implies otherwise like a player not any number of palyers you know

Anyway I was going to vote Aeoryi for being snippy about my typing style but they retracted so I wont so hm Im just going to put a vote on Experience cause one that post is hm two mech incentives to vote and Im like definitely going to forget so yeha

Anyway heres some RP and Ill look at more of whats been said in a bit I got my flu shot and need to nap I think

 

Jeneh sat at the fringes of the camp, watching as other Knights dueled and trained. They felt little drive to join the rest. Most of them were selected from actual soldiers who had prior training and experience with combat. Jeneh... wasn't. They were just a person who had made a promise. An Oath. But the value of Soulcasting to an active military force were invaluable, and they could help where others could not. This did not mean that they were suited for war. The grip of the sword felt foreign to them, and they did not have the endurance to train for hours on end despite the buoying effects of Stormlight. They couldn't learn by lounging about, but... perhaps tomorrow. Not today. Not when they had already spent the morning tripping over their own feet awkwardly as they tried to master an appropriate stance. Besides, they could always say that they were watching for those spies that Callar had spoken of. The very thought of such infiltrators was... unpleasant. Oaths were Oaths, and they had sworn loyalty. But they trusted Callar, as much as anyone could be trusted. They just had to hope that truth would show its face before the Knights tore themselves apart.

I agree about the PMs, the way it specifies a player makes it seem like it is only one.

[Araris Valerian he/him]

1 hour ago, STINK said:

TBD

Isn't TBD short for Totally Bad Dancer though?

My RL bandwidth for thinking about this game is currently a bit low. I've some thoughts on an RP arc for Aradon, and am currently thinking I'll end up voting on someone not engaging with RP, just so I can have fun reading stuff. Should also make the endgame more interesting with a higher power level,

[Aeoryi she/her]

2 hours ago, Archer said:

One month ago.

The cave is filled with smoke. The dull-red of embers offers meager light. They hiss as broth from a bubbling cauldron overflows. 
Smelling food, a small, furry mammal emerges from a crack in the stone wall. It tenses, torn between the pursuit of sustenance and the avoidance of risk. A minute passes, then two. Finally, it bolts towards the fire, but is snatched by metal tongs. 
“Right on schedule,” hums the alchemist. He thrusts his catch into the pot, smashing a lid on to cover it. “More heats, more heats.”
On the shelf behind his hunched frame, bottles glint as they reflect the growing fire. They hold saps and tars, acids and poisons. The alchemist runs his fingers along them deftly, having no need for sight after months of subterranean living. He settles on an elixir. Swirls, uncorks, and pours into the brew. The bubbles stop as the liquid rapidly cools, almost freezing in a matter of seconds. 
“STICK!” He plunges a metal rod into the concoction, scrapes the bottom of the pot, and pulls it out with a wad of white gunk sticking to its end. “STICK!”
His tongs prod the substance. His figure fades into the smoke as the onlooker’s view pulls out, through darkened tunnels, back towards the surface. Almost far enough away not to hear his screams as he finds fault in his work. Almost, but not quite. 
“…won’t stick…”

I like the boldness of the vote move request, but I'd rather spread the votes than consolidate at this stage. Ashbringer showed enough paranoid self-awareness that I'd like to see more from them before changing my vote. 

I agree with your assumption that the elims will have vote manip and that they'll prioritize ensuring the exe leads to deaths over allowing ties to go through. But I think the likeliest outcome of rigging the votes to aim for a very specific outcome is we can either whip the votes to control who dies or who gets second place, but not both. The elims have enough leverage to get their preferred outcome from one of those. If they choose not engage, then we get no reads from them in the way that we normally would from a close EoD. 

And I don't think ties are as bad as you present them as. If we put three people into a tie, the elims can vote manip their player out of it and harm two villagers. But then they'll have to explain the vote manipulation and we'll have avoided a villager death. If the elim chooses to ride it out in the tie, they lose power at the expense of only two villagers losing theirs. One elim is worth 3 villagers in the distro, so its kind of a good trade. 

My working assumption was that the elims would seize on the path of more certainty, but I'm trying to reconcile that with lack of SE meta familiarity. I think the fresh eyed approach might be to prefer your proposal, so I'm side-eyeing Mat more than I am you for this. 

Stick principle?

I worry about the same thing.

Why not vote me then :P. 

Kas-JNV unlikely to be e-e because e!Kas would have mentioned it was a PM convo to defend against the suggestion it was an elim doc one

I put the under/over on Kas PMs at 3.5. I'd take the under, but only because the thread has been quiet so far. 

By the way, I believe PMs can have multiple people in them, which is probably the way to go if you're using them to feel people out

Yeah ties aren't important now, but they could happen later. Just a thought. Or five.

1 hour ago, JNV said:

The way this is phrased kinda implies otherwise like a player not any number of palyers you know

Anyway I was going to vote Aeoryi for being snippy about my typing style but they retracted so I wont so hm Im just going to put a vote on Experience cause one that post is hm two mech incentives to vote and Im like definitely going to forget so yeha

Anyway heres some RP and Ill look at more of whats been said in a bit I got my flu shot and need to nap I think

 

Jeneh sat at the fringes of the camp, watching as other Knights dueled and trained. They felt little drive to join the rest. Most of them were selected from actual soldiers who had prior training and experience with combat. Jeneh... wasn't. They were just a person who had made a promise. An Oath. But the value of Soulcasting to an active military force were invaluable, and they could help where others could not. This did not mean that they were suited for war. The grip of the sword felt foreign to them, and they did not have the endurance to train for hours on end despite the buoying effects of Stormlight. They couldn't learn by lounging about, but... perhaps tomorrow. Not today. Not when they had already spent the morning tripping over their own feet awkwardly as they tried to master an appropriate stance. Besides, they could always say that they were watching for those spies that Callar had spoken of. The very thought of such infiltrators was... unpleasant. Oaths were Oaths, and they had sworn loyalty. But they trusted Callar, as much as anyone could be trusted. They just had to hope that truth would show its face before the Knights tore themselves apart.

Sorry sorry sorry I feel like a terrible person now.

1 hour ago, STINK said:

Hey gang your guy kinda got a headache so won't be partaking in deep deep deep mechanics talks around the campfire until I get a nice good long sleep but I'm here and hanging around don't you fret your heads about inactivity

Fret your heads about my insane dancing skills though TBD is gonna be really good at breakdancing

...

Yeah

 

I should probably not over-expect things from others. Man I feel bad.

[Archer he/him]

Three weeks ago.

Phil Swift squeezed his hand. “Stupid message. Their schedules are inane. Science takes time, time!”

The boy whose throat he was holding rasped. “I’m… sorry?” Phil let them go. They fell to the dirt, gasping for air.

“Why is my funding being cut?” He paced around the crumpled figure, kicking dust into his eyes. 

“I don’t know! They need money for the war, I think.”

“What war? Why would that matter?”

“The Fused have everyone scared. Please don’t hurt me.”

“What did you say?”

“Don’t hurt me? Please?”

Phil stopped, staring off into the distance. The sandy dessert in front of him stretched for miles. Beyond that, possibilities awaited.

“Tell my funders I will meet with them. I will help them fight these ‘Fused’.” He turned away to make an aside. “And I will learn what makes them fuse. At long last, I have the ingredient I need to make the most powerful glue known to man.”

“Was I supposed to hear that?”

The gears in Phil’s head were turning too loudly for him to hear. He was already planning what to pack. He was halfway down the tunnel to his cave before he remembered the messenger had asked to stay the night before he left. 

“Hmph. He’ll be fine. I’m sure he knows about the Chasmfiends.”

2 hours ago, JNV said:

The way this is phrased kinda implies otherwise like a player not any number of palyers you know

Good correction

8 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

I should probably not over-expect things from others. Man I feel bad.

Yeah ties aren't important now, but they could happen later. Just a thought. Or five.

I count four people who have said you can expect an underwhelming presence from them this cycle, which is going to have a major impact on the thread, so you can be forgiven for feeling like your expectations aren't being met. Within reason, anyway eg. not asking for playstyle changes. My goal is this cycle is to read the half of the player-base who is available to be read, then if I don't feel comfortable voting one of them, I'll shoot a non/semi-active at random. 

For the record, I totally understand why you feel the way you do about ties and the 2nd place effect. From your perspective, I think your stance makes sense, although your ask to consolidate on JNV early in the round felt too soon.

Quote

My first instinct is to use the second place vote intentionally to promote people we trust, rather than let it play out normally. It’s a tool we’ve been given, and I’d prefer publicly taking advantage of it so that the elims can’t.

Now Mat. Mat should know better. My read is he's taking advantage of the situation to get certainty. 

I'd also like to ask why people think XP is elimmy for saying 'huh'. Stalling for time while they talk in the elim doc kind of look? 

[Aeoryi she/her]

9 minutes ago, Archer said:

Three weeks ago.

Phil Swift squeezed his hand. “Stupid message. Their schedules are inane. Science takes time, time!”

The boy whose throat he was holding rasped. “I’m… sorry?” Phil let them go. They fell to the dirt, gasping for air.

“Why is my funding being cut?” He paced around the crumpled figure, kicking dust into his eyes. 

“I don’t know! They need money for the war, I think.”

“What war? Why would that matter?”

“The Fused have everyone scared. Please don’t hurt me.”

“What did you say?”

“Don’t hurt me? Please?”

Phil stopped, staring off into the distance. The sandy dessert in front of him stretched for miles. Beyond that, possibilities awaited.

“Tell my funders I will meet with them. I will help them fight these ‘Fused’.” He turned away to make an aside. “And I will learn what makes them fuse. At long last, I have the ingredient I need to make the most powerful glue known to man.”

“Was I supposed to hear that?”

The gears in Phil’s head were turning too loudly for him to hear. He was already planning what to pack. He was halfway down the tunnel to his cave before he remembered the messenger had asked to stay the night before he left. 

“Hmph. He’ll be fine. I’m sure he knows about the Chasmfiends.”

Good correction

I count four people who have said you can expect an underwhelming presence from them this cycle, which is going to have a major impact on the thread, so you can be forgiven for feeling like your expectations aren't being met. Within reason, anyway eg. not asking for playstyle changes. My goal is this cycle is to read the half of the player-base who is available to be read, then if I don't feel comfortable voting one of them, I'll shoot a non/semi-active at random. 

For the record, I totally understand why you feel the way you do about ties and the 2nd place effect. From your perspective, I think your stance makes sense, although your ask to consolidate on JNV early in the round felt too soon.

Now Mat. Mat should know better. My read is he's taking advantage of the situation to get certainty. 

I'd also like to ask why people think XP is elimmy for saying 'huh'. Stalling for time while they talk in the elim doc kind of look? 

Have you seen the SU made by exp? If you haven't, you should go check it out. 

What do you mean, "You'll shoot a random"? You have the coinshot role? The division surge? You're not afraid to kill villagers by accident if they're inactive? (Although to be fair, that's better than killing an active). I'm just a little opposed to killing people C1 for not playing as much as others. *Shrugs*

Matriam's dice yeah that's a point you could make. 

I actually have like, negative idea why exp is being e!read (although it's not really a mass communal "read"). 

Speaking of which, has anyone heard from TJ?

EDIT: My reasons for voting mat is simply to consolidate on someone- or at least not make it a 3/4 way tie. Mat just seemed like the best person to vote for

Edited November 5, 2023 by Aeoryi
Reasons

[Archer he/him]

25 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Have you seen the SU made by exp? If you haven't, you should go check it out. 

What do you mean, "You'll shoot a random"? You have the coinshot role? The division surge? You're not afraid to kill villagers by accident if they're inactive? (Although to be fair, that's better than killing an active). I'm just a little opposed to killing people C1 for not playing as much as others. *Shrugs*

Matriam's dice yeah that's a point you could make. 

I actually have like, negative idea why exp is being e!read (although it's not really a mass communal "read"). 

Speaking of which, has anyone heard from TJ?

EDIT: My reasons for voting mat is simply to consolidate on someone- or at least not make it a 3/4 way tie. Mat just seemed like the best person to vote for

Okay I figured it out. JNV said "Im just going to put a vote on Experience cause one that post is hm". I read that as them saying their vote is suspicious, when what JNV meant was that their vote is literally "hm". I've now read the status update aaaaaand. Don't know what to do about that. Thank you for pointing it out. 

By shoot I mean vote for. If I did have a kill, I wouldn't tell you publicly. 

I haven't heard from anyone in PMs yet, besides the person I reached out to. 

EDIT: Experience Ashbringer    (I accidentally copied JNV's vote with the formatting. I did not mean to vote XP)

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Archer

[Aeoryi she/her]

3 minutes ago, Archer said:

Okay I figured it out. JNV said "Im just going to put a vote on Experience cause one that post is hm". I read that as them saying their vote is suspicious, when what JNV meant was that their vote is literally "hm". I've now read the status update aaaaaand. Don't know what to do about that. Thank you for pointing it out. 

By shoot I mean vote for. If I did have a kill, I wouldn't tell you publicly. 

I haven't heard from anyone in PMs yet, besides the person I reached out to. 

EDIT: Experience Ashbringer    (I accidentally copied JNV's vote with the formatting. I did not mean to vote XP)

 

I've already PM'd someone, sorry. 

If I may ask, why ashbringer? What has ashbringer done?

[Ashbringer he/him]

I'd rather avoid focusing on the 2nd-highest vote, at least until we see how the spread of vote manip is. Everyone's got an incentive to ascend in Ideals, but Elims have more of an incentive to help each other, and can do that in a few different ways. Plus Windrunners have incentive to mess with the final vote independently. And normal D1 rush shenanigans. Would rather not have anyone up near the vote that people actually trust. What that means in the mix of trust that's D1, who knows, but... math is not my strong suit but I'm trying to do the math here and it scares me.

2 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

If I may ask, why ashbringer? What has ashbringer done?

... as of now, not much 

If I had a nickel for each time Archer voted on me while I was typing up a post, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice... on C1...

[Mat he/him]

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Feel it's a good way to let Elims get away with shoddy votes too easily IMO, e.g. I can easily leave my vote on you, and then if challenged, say "Sure, I figured Mat's a decent player so didn't mind seeing him get an extra Ideal." 

 

Fair enough. We could call that out, and I'm imagining it to be a bit more formal, but mostly what I'm trying to avoid is the number two suspect getting an Ideal. Maybe I care more about this having just come off games where I primarily voted people not on the leading train.

3 hours ago, Archer said:

And I don't think ties are as bad as you present them as. If we put three people into a tie, the elims can vote manip their player out of it and harm two villagers. But then they'll have to explain the vote manipulation and we'll have avoided a villager death. If the elim chooses to ride it out in the tie, they lose power at the expense of only two villagers losing theirs. One elim is worth 3 villagers in the distro, so its kind of a good trade. 

That's assuming there are elims in the tie at all, which isn't a guarantee. Though I do agree that ties aren't as bad as Aeoryi presented because I'd rather have villagers live roleless than die, so a v/v tie world is improved from normal here.

47 minutes ago, Archer said:

Now Mat. Mat should know better. My read is he's taking advantage of the situation to get certainty. 

I'd also like to ask why people think XP is elimmy for saying 'huh'. Stalling for time while they talk in the elim doc kind of look? 

Legitimately don't know what you're getting at here. Maybe I haven't read things close enough. Is there a reason you're against formally using the second vote? I think certainty is always better, for both alignments yes, but elims start with more of it and I'd like to even it out in any way I can. (To be clear, I'm not advocating for a hyper-focused effort, I'd just prefer more than no thought go into who falls second. I don't think letting the trains fall naturally will work super well because everyone knows what the second place vote does and that will affect things whether we talk about it or not).

Not anything that specific, it just feels elimmy. Like he had nothing to say but wanted to post because he felt obligated to post. It didn't feel natural to me. The SU is regrettable but I don't exactly want to ignore him the entire game . I wish he'd just not signed up but what's done is done

Can't decide if I like JNV's vote or not because half of my brain is saying JNV is jumping on something too easy >>

38 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Matriam's dice yeah that's a point you could make. 

EDIT: My reasons for voting mat is simply to consolidate on someone- or at least not make it a 3/4 way tie. Mat just seemed like the best person to vote for

This makes no sense because you're not consolidating by voting on someone with zero votes :P.

________________________________________________

  

21 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

Shay, who was clutching his arm

Her  My fault for not clarifying. She's a version of my character from something else.

“We will uphold our Oaths. We will perform as the Blackthorn expects of us. Or we will die in our attempt.”

Callar's words still echoed in Shay's mind. Were there... those who wouldn't? I mean, that's what she had heard. That's what people whispered, as if speaking it full-voiced would make it more true.

She glanced over at the vague direction of Phil Swift. Storming man, she thought on impulse. It had been an accident-- allegedly-- but it still made her want to fight something. To lash out. Being a Knight meant that she suppressed that urge, at least now that the moment had passed. She didn't know whether the blow was an attempt at her life or a clumsy mistake. But either way, it wasn't her fault.

Shay flexed her arm, which still throbbed. But only when she thought about it. Stormlight was useful stuff, and any real pain was now a memory. A recent memory, yes, but still just a memory. She intentionally conjured it, and directed the pain at a rock, which she sent skidding along the ground with a kick.

"Shay, dear, you are simply too quick to anger," her spren said in her mind. She grit her teeth. It was true, but something about this situation put her on edge.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Matrim's Dice
I just became a Knight Radiant in reputation that's actually perfect :P

[Aeoryi she/her]

3 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I'd rather avoid focusing on the 2nd-highest vote, at least until we see how the spread of vote manip is. Everyone's got an incentive to ascend in Ideals, but Elims have more of an incentive to help each other, and can do that in a few different ways. Plus Windrunners have incentive to mess with the final vote independently. And normal D1 rush shenanigans. Would rather not have anyone up near the vote that people actually trust. What that means in the mix of trust that's D1, who knows, but... math is not my strong suit but I'm trying to do the math here and it scares me.

... as of now, not much 

If I had a nickel for each time Archer voted on me while I was typing up a post, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice... on C1...

Now, the problem here is the elsecallers this cycle and the lightweavers here on out- transformation might influence how many votes go missing one day, but not the next. Or role-blocked windrunners

EDIT: lemme type the rest of my post

Edited November 5, 2023 by Aeoryi

[Aeoryi she/her]

Dang it I hit the hide button. Crem.

2 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Now, the problem here is the elsecallers this cycle and the lightweavers here on out- transformation might influence how many votes go missing one day, but not the next. Or role-blocked windrunners

EDIT: lemme type the rest of my post

Let's continue with my thoughts 

3 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Fair enough. We could call that out, and I'm imagining it to be a bit more formal, but mostly what I'm trying to avoid is the number two suspect getting an Ideal. Maybe I care more about this having just come off games where I primarily voted people not on the leading train.

That's assuming there are elims in the tie at all, which isn't a guarantee. Though I do agree that ties aren't as bad as Aeoryi presented because I'd rather have villagers live roleless than die, so a v/v tie world is improved from normal here.

Legitimately don't know what you're getting at here. Maybe I haven't read things close enough. Is there a reason you're against formally using the second vote? I think certainty is always better, for both alignments yes, but elims start with more of it and I'd like to even it out in any way I can. (To be clear, I'm not advocating for a hyper-focused effort, I'd just prefer more than no thought go into who falls second. I don't think letting the trains fall naturally will work super well because everyone knows what the second place vote does and that will affect things whether we talk about it or not).

Not anything that specific, it just feels elimmy. Like he had nothing to say but wanted to post because he felt obligated to post. It didn't feel natural to me. The SU is regrettable but I don't exactly want to ignore him the entire game . I wish he'd just not signed up but what's done is done

Can't decide if I like JNV's vote or not because half of my brain is saying JNV is jumping on something too easy >>

This makes no sense because you're not consolidating by voting on someone with zero votes :P.

________________________________________________

  

Her  My fault for not clarifying. She's a version of my character from something else.

“We will uphold our Oaths. We will perform as the Blackthorn expects of us. Or we will die in our attempt.”

Callar's words still echoed in Shay's mind. Were there... those who wouldn't? I mean, that's what she had heard. That's what people whispered, as if speaking it full-voiced would make it more true.

She glanced over at the vague direction of Phil Swift. Storming man, she thought on impulse. It had been an accident-- allegedly-- but it still made her want to fight something. To lash out. Being a Knight meant that she suppressed that urge, at least now that the moment had passed. She didn't know whether the blow was an attempt at her life or a clumsy mistake. But either way, it wasn't her fault.

Shay flexed her arm, which still throbbed. But only when she thought about it. Stormlight was useful stuff, and any real pain was now a memory. A recent memory, yes, but still just a memory. She intentionally conjured it, and directed the pain at a rock, which she sent skidding along the ground with a kick.

"Shay, dear, you are simply too quick to anger," her spren said in her mind. She grit her teeth. It was true, but something about this situation put her on edge.

Exp shouldn't feel like they have to blue-text to be believed. Calling them elimmy for saying one word is kinda jumping at a pinecone, I feel.

You have kas' vote on you I believe. So it's is consolidate 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ he/him]

Who are we thinking to give the ideal to?

 

Also disclaimer: I don’t know a lot  about SE, but I play mofia quite a bit and want to understand this more.

[Mat he/him]

2 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

Exp shouldn't feel like they have to blue-text to be believed. Calling them elimmy for saying one word is kinda jumping at a pinecone, I feel.

You have kas' vote on you I believe. So it's is consolidate 

It wasn't about the SU, and I don't know where you think I said I doubted them :P. I made that read long before reading the SU.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. 90% sure his vote on me was a joke but I could be wrong.

[Aeoryi she/her]

Just now, ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ said:

Who are we thinking to give the ideal to?

 

Also disclaimer: I don’t know a lot  about SE, but I play mofia quite a bit and want to understand this more.

No one- just leaving it and seeing what happens, then pivoting based on stuff like vote manip

 

Just now, Matrim's Dice said:

It wasn't about the SU, and I don't know where you think I said I doubted them :P. I made that read long before reading the SU.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. 90% sure his vote on me was a joke but I could be wrong.

Do you want to share with us your read on a one word post?

[Mat he/him]

Just now, Aeoryi said:

Do you want to share with us your read on a one word post?

Did you... read my post?

11 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Not anything that specific, it just feels elimmy. Like he had nothing to say but wanted to post because he felt obligated to post. It didn't feel natural to me. The SU is regrettable but I don't exactly want to ignore him the entire game . I wish he'd just not signed up but what's done is done

 

[Aeoryi she/her]

16 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Did you... read my post?

 

[I'm going to try to wrap this up into a nice RP for you]

Saffron sighed. This fool just wouldn't get it! Why couldn't he understand that he was overanalyzing a few words? It was absurd.

Saffron thought that maybe he was also jumping at pinecones. Mat was known for making tunnels. That didn't mean he needed to as well.

"What do you think about Mat?" He asked his spren, who was an inkspren, "Is he actually in this group of traitorous knights?" [Why does my auto correct change things to "baby's B-day. What the heck]>

The inkspren responded, "I don't know if he is. Villagers can make stupid reads too."

Saffron sighed again. "But I mean he is pushing for some of the inactives to be lynched or whatever- and finding it rather hard to do so based on the low amount of content they have."

JNV. Experience. Archer. Okay maybe archer wasn't inactive, but still it seemed way too much for just the first day of this. Or did it? Saffron had many doubts of both himself and mat.

But mat was a smarter one. Mat was one of the many more experienced knights in this group. Would such behavior be expected from him?

The inkspren responded after thinking for a while, "I don't think it's enough really to say of side."

Saffron found himself nodding. There really wasn't enough activity yet to really judge.

The only thing people were talking about it seemed was what to do with ties, or with ideals. 

Fools, the inkspren sent through the bond, rushing ideals is not the way of the knights radiant. It will come when they are ready. And judging by the group, it seems ready may be closer than they think. It's not about having one more ideal than everyone else.

Saffron sighed. It was true, but it was also expected of radiant spren. They could be so irritating sometimes.

[I hope that worked; I suck at SE RP] 

EDIT: several points are exaggerated. 200 words is a lot to write about in response to a 5 word post.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Aeoryi

[Mat he/him]

—I don’t think it’s overanalyzing to say that I have a gut read

—Certainly you can’t honestly call this a tunnel, the only reason I keep bringing it up is because other people do

—Calling it a stupid read feels like you know Exp is village and are preflipping him, though “stupid” is probably just a synonym for “something I disagree with” 

—I’m not pushing to kill inactives. Why did you say I am? Why are you implying I’m pushing JNV and Archer when I’m not?

I get 200 words is hard but cmon :P. It’s one thing to exaggerate and another to make stuff up 

[Aeoryi she/her]

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

—I don’t think it’s overanalyzing to say that I have a gut read

—Certainly you can’t honestly call this a tunnel, the only reason I keep bringing it up is because other people do

—Calling it a stupid read feels like you know Exp is village and are preflipping him, though “stupid” is probably just a synonym for “something I disagree with” 

—I’m not pushing to kill inactives. Why did you say I am? Why are you implying I’m pushing JNV and Archer when I’m not?

I get 200 words is hard but cmon :P. It’s one thing to exaggerate and another to make stuff up 

Okay okay let's go back to good old fashioned non-rp reads since by the time I reach 50 words I'm already stretching for more.

1. Gut read yeah- I think I mentioned it somewhere that saffron thought he might be overanalyzing too at some point. 

2. I hate rp I hate rp next time I'm using a thesaurus. I should mention here that my RP and my own self don't necessarily overlap quite well, and we get these unmindful words coming out of that.

3. The phrase "Stupid read" wasn't meant to try and attack you or the effort you've been putting into the game. I meant unnecessary read. Which it sorta isn't. I hate rp.

4. I dunno okay look:

56 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Legitimately don't know what you're getting at here. Maybe I haven't read things close enough. Is there a reason you're against formally using the second vote? I think certainty is always better, for both alignments yes, but elims start with more of it and I'd like to even it out in any way I can. (To be clear, I'm not advocating for a hyper-focused effort, I'd just prefer more than no thought go into who falls second. I don't think letting the trains fall naturally will work super well because everyone knows what the second place vote does and that will affect things whether we talk about it or not).

[Experience]

Not anything that specific, it just feels elimmy. Like he had nothing to say but wanted to post because he felt obligated to post. It didn't feel natural to me. The SU is regrettable but I don't exactly want to ignore him the entire game . I wish he'd just not signed up but what's done is done

[JNV]

Can't decide if I like JNV's vote or not because half of my brain is saying JNV is jumping on something too easy >>

This is definitely jumping to conclusions yeah 

38 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

The inkspren responded after thinking for a while, "I don't think it's enough really to say of side."

Saffron found himself nodding. There really wasn't enough activity yet to really judge.

 

I'm trying to say these reads don't really mean much for both me and you and JNV and archer. 

32 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

... Archer. Okay maybe archer wasn't inactive, but still it seemed way too much for just the first day of this. Or did it? Saffron had many doubts of both himself and mat.

I guess I accidentally thought that opposition == opposite alignment. So yeah, you didn't necessarily read archer as Elim. 

Also, in hindsight I realize it was kinda rude to call JNV and inactive.

Either way I don't want to argue over some stupid RP post that wasn't meant to mean a whole lot.

 

You know what I'm never putting my reads or analysis wrapped up in RP again that went horrendously wrong sorry I guess that's what ooc comments are for

I apologize for the inconvenience.

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

  

6 hours ago, Aeoryi said:

4. due to these reasons, village windrunners and elsecallers should refrain from using their vote manip, unless a windruner wants to break a tie for an ideal to get that nice role-block surge, but still try to not use vote manip. With the fact that 40% of the distro or so has vote manip, expect some vote manip on the Elim team, which means exeLo could be closer than you thunk (vote manip generally essentially counts for 2 elims at exeLo)

4. I'm going to kindly suggest we consolidate our votes. A 2-3 vote difference from the top trains would be preferable if we are going to try and utilize the second train.

2-3 vote difference is important in any circumstances to prevent elim vote manipulation if you're encouraging villagers to avoid using their own vote manipulation. Consolidation isn't helpful until the end of the cycle though, since there's still more than 24 hours left there's still plenty of time to decide who to vote on without making choices based on who can be most plausibly exed. Although not voting until late does mean that (I at least) often end up voting for someone who has lots of votes, so simply waiting until the end isn't good enough even though I doubt I'll ever change.

4 hours ago, Archer said:

And I don't think ties are as bad as you present them as. If we put three people into a tie, the elims can vote manip their player out of it and harm two villagers. But then they'll have to explain the vote manipulation and we'll have avoided a villager death. If the elim chooses to ride it out in the tie, they lose power at the expense of only two villagers losing theirs. One elim is worth 3 villagers in the distro, so its kind of a good trade.

How do you expect to hold players accountable for vote manipulation? Even with four different orders being able to use surges that negate votes I don't think people will be in a hurry to claim, especially elims. Even if it can be concluded that a vote manipulator is likely evil that's not a conclusive argument that the person being saved is also an elim.

Also if we put three people in a tie and villagers refrain from vote manip, that commits to a no-exe, which is rarely the intended goal. Surrendering the killing power of the exe makes it easier for elims to stay alive even with the likely prospect of village dividers. If there's a small group that can be confidently deduced to have an elim in it, it's better to kill them than take away their powers.

 

So many prospective Knights in this camp placed such great value on Oaths. How many of them were actually mistaking Honorable actions for ethical ones, and how many just wanted an excuse to pursue their own interests? Neither made a difference to the Singers they sought to kill, both would be an impediment for convincing those Knights to defect. She decided not to persuade any Knight who placed moral value on Oaths.

Taliat had sworn her own first Oath in front of a couple of bored warform guards, a mere formality at the end of the Singer's volunteer processing procedure. One of the Singers had evidently been starved for interaction, as he'd taken the time to explain the Oath's three parts as he understood the Radiants to interpret them.

Life before death - The millions of Singers killed to uphold human occupation during and between Reclamations are irrelevant. The only lives worthy of consideration are the human ones that stand to be lost fighting to maintain their stolen land.

Strength before weakness - Humans have won every war against the Singers, therefore humans are stronger and the rightful masters of the planet.

Journey before destination - Even if one did believe Singers should be in charge of their land, that's merely a destination and the inevitable violence necessary to make that belief a reality renders that journey unacceptable. Any amount of violence to enforce human rule is permissible since that destination has already been reached.

Orotha still didn't know what it said about her that she summoned Iolea after repeating those nine words. Slani had given her a chance to prove herself, dazed and confused as she'd been with her new form and companion. Iolea believed it meant the two of them were free to interpret their oaths however they chose, with no need to follow the lead of the Knights Radiant. Orotha still feared that if she tried to gain enough power to kill Knights, she might have to choose killing Iolea over betraying the Singers.

 

[Aeoryi she/her]

13 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

2-3 vote difference is important in any circumstances to prevent elim vote manipulation if you're encouraging villagers to avoid using their own vote manipulation. Consolidation isn't helpful until the end of the cycle though, since there's still more than 24 hours left there's still plenty of time to decide who to vote on without making choices based on who can be most plausibly exed. Although not voting until late does mean that (I at least) often end up voting for someone who has lots of votes, so simply waiting until the end isn't good enough even though I doubt I'll ever change.

I mean people should probably be voting to get the free ideal by c4- note that by then, most that push for ideals will already reach 5 by C3. 

It isn't a bad thing to be not voting, but if we're all just talking and not voting our words and reads hold lower weight.

16 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

Also if we put three people in a tie and villagers refrain from vote manip, that commits to a no-exe, which is rarely the intended goal. Surrendering the killing power of the exe makes it easier for elims to stay alive even with the likely prospect of village dividers. If there's a small group that can be confidently deduced to have an elim in it, it's better to kill them than take away their powers

I second this. The exe isn't easily stopable- I don't think any roles can really effectively stop it. Even with the village dustbringers or skybreakers (next cycle) the village loses a guaranteed kill that won't be redirected or role-blocked- a lot more certainty from the exe rather than a vigilante role.