Quick Fix Game 67: Down the Rabbit-Hole

[Mat he/him]

21 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

One of the Jabberwock’s kills was sent back in time a cycle.

But, it wasn’t both Jabberwock kills. Just one. The other happened on schedule. That could mean that something else is in play, but the only other multi-action we’ve seen was the Queen of Hearts executing 2 people at once.

I just assumed the Jabberwock had two kills, one of which was a time kill. But you might be onto something here… assuming we’re thinking the same thing.

@Wonko the Sane, who was the Queen of Hearts during the first minigame? I’ll explain why I voted you if you tell us :3

Edit: Better question. Who was cursed by time? Do we have a complete list? If you had an ability last game that allowed you to time curse people, now is the time to speak up.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Matrim's Dice

[Experience he/him]

19 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I just assumed the Jabberwock had two kills, one of which was a time kill. But you might be onto something here… assuming we’re thinking the same thing.

@Wonko the Sane, who was the Queen of Hearts during the first minigame? I’ll explain why I voted you if you tell us :3

Edit: Better question. Who was cursed by time? Do we have a complete list? If you had an ability last game that allowed you to time curse people, now is the time to speak up.

I was never cursed by time. 

Also, I think queen of hearts was xino or tj? Ofc I could be wrong lol.

But also, is this bad for the jabberwocky because they need to kill elims, right?

[Ashbringer he/him]

10 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I just assumed the Jabberwock had two kills, one of which was a time kill. But you might be onto something here… assuming we’re thinking the same thing.

@Wonko the Sane, who was the Queen of Hearts during the first minigame? I’ll explain why I voted you if you tell us :3

Actually, my hunch is that it’s either TKN (not Stick, was wrong on that), someone else Cursed by Time who’s been keeping their mouth shut, or anyone with wacky rules.

It’s possible Wonko accidentally shifted an action targetting him back in time, as part of his own curse. No real way to test that out, and I haven’t seen anything like that yet, but it would mean the Jabberwock isn’t necessarily Cursed. 

It’s possible there’s a new player with a Curse, maybe two. TKN allegedly started with it, Wonko gained it C2, I also gained it C2 but apparently using strange Wonderlandian role-copying powers. I don’t think anyone mentioned a new Curse C3 or C4, but it’s possible.

But… man, this has implications.

The Known Novel

[Mat he/him]

Yeah, I think I got there eventually but you beat my edit.

Wonko was a bad move, but new question for him: Since everyone and their friends list knows your role name, can you say what it does? Might go a long way in clearing things up.

Edit: And I know TJ wasn’t the Queen, btw. Could have been xino though. But that probably doesn’t matter, actually.

Edit2: @Ashbringer Would it make sense to you simply that because Wonko has the curse, the attack on him went back? That’d be the least helpful explanation, but a possible one. Granted, idk what the curse actually does (and if anyone who has it wants to explain, that’d be appreciated)

Edit3: Wait sorry for the ping, that’s what you just said >> Thought you meant as part of his role this minigame 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Matrim's Dice

[Ashbringer he/him]

Insane theory - Wonko's a time-cursed Jabberwock who killed himself in the past so we'd clear him because he'd know it wouldn't matter.

... okay unlikely. But, possible! 

... well, not really, for reasons below.

3 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Edit2: @Ashbringer Would it make sense to you simply that because Wonko has the curse, the attack on him went back? That’d be the least helpful explanation, but a possible one. Granted, idk what the curse actually does (and if anyone who has it wants to explain, that’d be appreciated)

Maybe. 

Wonko PM'd me last turn (actual action-using PM, not a special Brillig one... at least it's not labeled as such), so he didn't use an action, so theoretically he wouldn't have an action to send back. It seems possible that an action then used on him could have been sent back in its place.

Unless someone did something to me last turn, I wouldn't know exactly. Both times I've used an action while Cursed by Time it got sent to take "effect" a cycle earlier, with fairly obvious results. C2 I accidentally blocked Sart's Tea Party invite back in C1, and C3 I, uh... you guys probably noticed that too. Hence the screaming.

Apparently it's not all actions, or Wonko's own Curse was in play, because we have two Jabberwock kills that were affected differently.

 

... 

... Fifth.

I'm just going to draw attention to one line here:

3 hours ago, Fifth Scholar said:

In C3, Wonko the Sane was killed by the Jabberwock! He was (still) a Quokka of Wonderland of the Animals of Wonderland, and held the Eight of Clubs! This does not affect the outcome of the Cards minigame.

Maybe that means nothing, that Fifth is being reassuring after showing me the insanity beneath the rabbit hole. Or maybe it means everything, because Wonko time-travel-dying C3 really doesn't affect the outcome there. Wonko's still executed by the Queen either way, Animals still lose, everyone else still loses or wins how the Cards fell.

But if it had been someone else? Like Sart? Then the entire Animals faction would have won, most likely. That would certainly affect the outcome of the Cards minigame.

 

That implies to me a few things that could be true:

• The Jabberwock had no incentive to accidentally change the outcome of Minigame 1 (implying either a Tea Partier, Queen, or especially Knave - dis-implying an active Animal).
• The Jabberwock had no idea that this would happen (implying that they weren't paying attention to the earlier Cursed By Time discussions).
• The Jabberwock had some idea this would happen, but not the potential wincon altering ramifications (implying... idk, an intact sense of reason).
• The Jabberwock wasn't in control here (implying that this was Wonko's Curse at play and this is all just a giant secondary rabbit hole).

 

TKN is the nice mix of these. Quinn could also fit, potentially, as could whoever the Knave was (as non-Knaves unwilling to interfere with the Animals' near-win could have taken a potshot at the Knave instead of Wonko).

 

Bah. Blackout games. Guaranteed to make Ashbringer completely lose his mind 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Time travel, unravel, no sense says I! But I won't pry. Idle chatter doesn't matter, I'd sooner vote for the mad hatter! Why debate the metaphysical nature of "time's curse" when we could instead debate who ends up in a hearse?  What's going on? I have no clue. But come dusk or dawn, bloodthirst is true.

Stick.

I'm just here to hit for a bit. And hit I shall! Here's my rationale: Relative to some, I've made a transition to a disadvantaged position, which belies my ambition. In addition, I'm on a mission, one that starts with the deposition of a certain fell apparition. I won't ask your permission, though you have my contrition for the imposition. This is no inquisition: I have no sound suspicion nor premonition (by my admission, my intuition has gone to perdition) but it strikes me that, by the GMs rendition, the game's a competition. Now, I'm no statistician, but my supposition is you're the only known player whose win-condition came to fruition in the previous edition of the minigame. Thusly, you seem to be my opposition, by definition. I seek no coalition, my disposition is rather one of attrition and perhaps sedition. So taste my munition! That is to say: Eat lead! Off with your head and sever your thread, I vote you dead!

[Ashbringer he/him]

10 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Time travel, unravel, no sense says I! But I won't pry. Idle chatter doesn't matter, I'd sooner vote for the mad hatter! Why debate the metaphysical nature of "time's curse" when we could instead debate who ends up in a hearse?  What's going on? I have no clue. But come dusk or dawn, bloodthirst is true.

Stick.

Ironically I'm pretty sure Stick was the Mad Hatter 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

6 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Ironically I'm pretty sure Stick was the Mad Hatter 

Boo and shame on you, that's precisely what I'm trying to do!

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 minute ago, DrakeMarshall said:

Boo and shame on you, that's precisely what I'm trying to do!

Then irony there must not be! In rhyme I'm outmatched, so now I must flee!

... I have homework, you see 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

32 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Then irony there must not be! In rhyme I'm outmatched, so now I must flee!

... I have homework, you see 

A worthy attempt, thus you are exempt from my contempt! Good of you not to shirk on your homework.

 

Edit: Is there any reason it's not the season to mass claim and win the game? It seems to me the evil roles may not be free: they have a cost to them if other roles are lost to them. Or maybe not, but its worth a shot, would you expect this is correct?

Edited September 5, 2023 by DrakeMarshall

[Stick. she/her]

3 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Judging by the fact something similar has happened to me, I’d say it’s pretty sure.

Publicly Cursed individuals are me, Wonko, Stick iirc? 

I was never cursed by time - TKN was though. 

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

Wonko PM'd me last turn (actual action-using PM, not a special Brillig one... at least it's not labeled as such), so he didn't use an action, so theoretically he wouldn't have an action to send back. It seems possible that an action then used on him could have been sent back in its place.

Unless someone did something to me last turn, I wouldn't know exactly. Both times I've used an action while Cursed by Time it got sent to take "effect" a cycle earlier, with fairly obvious results. C2 I accidentally blocked Sart's Tea Party invite back in C1, and C3 I, uh... you guys probably noticed that too. Hence the screaming.

Apparently it's not all actions, or Wonko's own Curse was in play, because we have two Jabberwock kills that were affected differently.

 

... 

... Fifth.

I'm just going to draw attention to one line here:

Maybe that means nothing, that Fifth is being reassuring after showing me the insanity beneath the rabbit hole. Or maybe it means everything, because Wonko time-travel-dying C3 really doesn't affect the outcome there. Wonko's still executed by the Queen either way, Animals still lose, everyone else still loses or wins how the Cards fell.

But if it had been someone else? Like Sart? Then the entire Animals faction would have won, most likely. That would certainly affect the outcome of the Cards minigame.

 

That implies to me a few things that could be true:

• The Jabberwock had no incentive to accidentally change the outcome of Minigame 1 (implying either a Tea Partier, Queen, or especially Knave - dis-implying an active Animal).
• The Jabberwock had no idea that this would happen (implying that they weren't paying attention to the earlier Cursed By Time discussions).
• The Jabberwock had some idea this would happen, but not the potential wincon altering ramifications (implying... idk, an intact sense of reason).
• The Jabberwock wasn't in control here (implying that this was Wonko's Curse at play and this is all just a giant secondary rabbit hole).

 

TKN is the nice mix of these. Quinn could also fit, potentially, as could whoever the Knave was (as non-Knaves unwilling to interfere with the Animals' near-win could have taken a potshot at the Knave instead of Wonko).

 

Bah. Blackout games. Guaranteed to make Ashbringer completely lose his mind 

Wonko PM’d me last cycle too. I don’t think he’s restricted to a single action like most of us - or at least he wasn’t last cycle.

I think the simplest explanation is just that we got an outdated flip because wonko was cursed by time and that the jabberwock didn’t anticipate this. Shouldn’t that clear TKN as not-Jabberwock? TKN would know that being cursed by time carries over from the last minigame. I’d assumed everybody started with a clean slate but apparently not. If the jabberwock themself was cursed by time, I think both of those flips should have been outdated - not just wonkos?

Amanuensis 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

It seems strange that for a change both attacks would coincide in the same homicide.

How much leeway do we give the death of TJ? Is there any evidence that it's not a coincidence?

[Stick. she/her]

Who did TJ have PMs with other than wonko 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

3 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

Who did TJ have PMs with other than wonko 

Aye, if your mind is inclined to theory then that's the relevant query. But see, if there are people who did they'll stay hid -- I don't reckon they'll check in. I feel this might be key but I can't for the life of me foresee to what degree. It's a bitter pill, but you know the drill, kill analysis is always uphill. Or it might just be luck and this quest will get us stuck. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Stick. she/her]

PMs from last minigame carry over to this one, so if there was knowledge of TJ having made PMs with people there it should be shared 

Edit:

like I can prove I didn’t have any PMs with TJ because I used my c1 action to create one with TKN, used my c2 action to kick wonko out of the tea party (lol) and used by c3 action to create a PM with dead!mat. During c4 I used the special c4 ability and I would have mentioned PMs with TJ when explaining why I was voting for him 

edit2:

experience would have made a PM with TJ

I don’t think TJ would have role claimed to anybody except for maaaybe wonko, because I know that wonko had been offering people role swaps and even just TJ refusing the role swap would’ve maybe pointed towards him having a stronger role that he felt the need to hide 

Edit3:

BTW I can confirm that redirection to self mechanics exist in that game and it’s possible TJ had that and it resulted in two instead of one kill on him 

edit4:

@Experience please explain what info you gleaned off exaggerating Mat's defense of ash 

Edited September 5, 2023 by _Stick_

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

4 hours ago, _Stick_ said:

Who did TJ have PMs with other than wonko 

I actually don't have TJ in my contact list yet.

It does interest me that the Jabberwock picked the targets they did. Either they actually knew who TJ was (and possibly me; there are good reasons for the Jabberwock to want me out of the picture), or suspected both of us of being Bandersnatches. This points to someone either remarkably well-informed, or remarkably uninformed.

This does solve our distro issues, by the way. It's four kills per turn, not 3, which makes a victory for either Creatures or Bandersnatches much more plausible.

[Stick. she/her]

the jabberwock wouldnt wanna kill TJ because they need all the kills they can get, no? they probably had no clue what TJ's role was.

edit:

honestly im midly confused as to why people dont think im the jabberwock off that kill

jabberwock likely thought TJ was elim im sorry if my TJ read contributed to that LMAO i have forgotten how to village

Edited September 5, 2023 by _Stick_

[xinoehp512 he/him]

8 hours ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Could have been xino though

Bruh I don't know why everyone thinks I was the Queen of Hearts.

 

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

1 minute ago, xinoehp512 said:

Bruh I don't know why everyone thinks I was the Queen of Hearts.

Can confirm, neither Xino nor TJ was Queen. I'll defer to the actual Queen on whether they want to come forward, though.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Wonko the Sane

[Stick. she/her]

also the sword TJ held has been passed on to another villager most likely 

 

[Mat he/him]

Hmm actually I could see e!Stick

Pity I don’t have time today :P. Would do a deep dive but I really can’t

Will add my support to TKN for now but we’ll see where the trains go

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

9 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

also the sword TJ held has been passed on to another villager most likely 

 

We can only hope. If it's like last minigame, though, either the Jabberwock or a Bandersnatch has it now. If the Jabberwock has it, it probably can't use it; I imagine it takes an action to use, because otherwise TJ would probably have used it, given our concerns last round that there wouldn't be enough kills in the game.

Proposal: we check whether a villager has it by asking the holder to kill someone we vote for. If the Jabberwock has it, no one extra will die. If someone besides the stated target dies, there's a good chance a Bandersnatch has it. If the target dies, it could still be a Bandersnatch, but we'll at least have ruled out Jabberwock.

(Note: this does assume that the sword works as a regular coinshot power, which is not guaranteed. Knowing this game, it could we'll be some Wonderland nonsense like "when you PM a player the phrase 'Snicker-Snack', if that player is the Jabberwock, they die instantly". It could really be anything in this game. >>)

[Stick. she/her]

8 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Hmm actually I could see e!Stick

Pity I don’t have time today :P. Would do a deep dive but I really can’t

Will add my support to TKN for now but we’ll see where the trains go

hey, no, come back and explain that :p.

tkn could be elim yea but prob not the jabberwock

[Mat he/him]

2 minutes ago, _Stick_ said:

hey, no, come back and explain that :p.

tkn could be elim yea but prob not the jabberwock

Later yeah, gimme an hour till I don’t have a class

No no the whole point is that he is the most likely jabberwock 

[Stick. she/her]

ok maybe i am wrong but idk why jabberwock!tkn would kill someone cursed by time when he'd know, being cursed by time himself, that it is a thing that exists in this minigame too. like i said, i assumed it ended with the last one

edit:

currently being persuaded by wonko in PMs, it's entirely possible tkn didnt anticipate it and think it through hard enough

Edited September 5, 2023 by _Stick_