Allomancer vs Knight Radiant

[Rune]

Okay, so I’m taking a little from Jedi vs Knight Radiants here but what about Knight Radiants vs allomancers?

 1) mistborn vs Knight Radiant

2) misting vs Knight Radiant

3) feruchemist vs Knight Radiant

4) twinborn vs Knight Radiant

5) fullborn vs Knight Radiant

6) Kelsier vs Kaladin (or some other high end Radiants like Dalinar)

You can pick the specific orders/oath level and metals and as @Duxredux has pointed out, you pick all the undefined parameters.

7) Awakening vs Knight Radiant

8) any magic system vs any other (the best users seen so far against each other specifically)

9) order vs order

Edited July 2, 2022 by Rune
New thoughts and scenarios

[therunner]

Bit early for this thread no? After the last 70+ pages
We will see what new info Lost Metal will bring but my answers, are mostly unchanged.
(also for Knight Radiant I assume at least 2nd Oath)

1. Mistborn vs Knight Radiant: From 3rd Oath onward Knight Radiant as they are stronger, heal better, they have 1-hit-kill weapon and potentially also nearly impenetrable armor, 6 orders are faster/more maneuverable. Below 3rd Oath it would go to Mistborn, but some orders could still win albeit with difficulty (Elsecallers, Windrunners, Skybreakers come to mind). Atium could help Mistborn, but above 4th Oath not even that would be enough.
2. Misting vs Knight Radiant: Knight Radiant, pretty much all the time at all Oaths (maybe not 1st oath), with sole exception of Atium-mistings, those would challenge some orders (typically those without long range options or AoE options).
3. Feruchemist vs Knight Radiant: Sole advantage of Feruchemist is F-Steel, so if they have enough of it, they could win (blitz the Radiant). Without enough F-steel, Radiant would win always when above 3rd Oath, and a lot of time when below it. 
4. Twinborn vs Knight Radiant: If the twinborn has F-steel, they have some chance against 3rd Oath and below (depending on what depletes faster Stormlight for healing, or F-steel stores), for those with Shardplate they lack offensive options to break through (depending on how exactly F-steel works in conjunction with thrown weapons). Elsecallers could dodge to cognitive and attack from there.
5. Fullborn vs Knight Radiant: Fullborn, full stop. (only chance is catching them off-guard and managing to soulcast them from Cognitive, but they could be too invested to do even that).
6. Kelsier vs Kaladin: Kaladin. Even on 3rd Oath Kaladin would beat Vin in straight up fight, so he should be able to beat Kelsier (as Vin later on "routinely" battles Inquisitors).

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Rune said:

6) Kelsier vs Kaladin

There are multiple Words of Brandon about that

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Kelsier vs. Kaladin, who wins?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier is meaner. Kelsier is sneakier. Raw power - I'm not sure, but I'm gonna go with Kelsier. If its on a battlefield, Kelsier doesn't win. If its off the battlefield, Kelsier wins. Kaladin is a soldier. He can fight a war and fight with a team and he can win a battle. Kelsier can sneak into someones house and stab them.

Spoiler

Questioner

Who is the greatest warrior in the cosmere? I think it's Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, define "warrior" versus "soldier" versus--

Questioner

Who could win at an all-out fight? Even with powers taken away, I think he could still take on a lot of the other warriors.

Brandon Sanderson

A question. Are they on a battlefield? 'Cause Kelsier just murders him in his sleep.

Questioner

Battlefield.

Brandon Sanderson

The actual soldier, battlefield, is probably Kaladin. Problem is, you could put Dalinar in his prime. And they're both pretty good. But, Kaladin is a true soldier.

Spoiler

sockmop

Who would win in a fight, Kaladin with no Shards but with Surgebinding and his favorite spear (aluminum tip) or Kelsier with the first nine metals of Allomancy?

AndTwoYears

Kelsier, I think, if Kaladin doesn't have Syl with him. But it may depend on nearby metal sources.

Alternatively, they come to a shaky alliance where they both fight against the nobility but still get on each other's nerves. [Brandon] care to weigh in?

Brandon Sanderson

If they came to arms, Kelsier would try to kill Kaladin in his sleep, most likely. But it depends on a lot of factors, and I think your alternative is the most likely.

Spoiler

Dane Brown

Hypothetically, if Kelsier were to meet Kaladin, what would he say?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably "don't be so hard on yourself, kid." That would probably be what Kelsier says. He would do some version of "I've been there, don't be so hard on yourself. You can't fix it all." That's what my gut says.

Kelsier would really like Kaladin. He's the sort of person that Kelsier just... Kelsier loves to see and recognize the people who are just innately good and trying to do good. He's drawn to that because it's not something that is natural to him, if that makes any sense. He can recognize it, though. And it's one of those things that he kind of wants to preserve in the world. And he would really like Kaladin.

Adam Horne

Would Kaladin like Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably not.

Spoiler

Fantasy Faction

Finally, and most importantly, if all your protagonists had an epic all out brawl, who would win?

Brandon Sanderson

Some of them are immortal, but that would kind of be cheating. If you let people who are immortal participate, it's going to very much favor someone like Hoid, who is really, really, really hard to kill. Of course, he would not be very good at offing anyone either, because of certain things in his past. It would be really futile when it got down to the last two. But if we take that out.

You'd have to set ground rules. Do they get access to their magic? Where is it taking place? If we take away all magic and we just say people are beating up on each other, who's going to win? It's probably Kelsier because he'll fight dirty. Vasher fights really dirty, too. If Kelsier and Vasher gang up on the rest, and then it depends who's still not in pieces at the end. It'd be Kelsier or Vasher probably.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Treamayne

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Fullborn is about the more broken non shard out there.  

Radiants 4th ideal and higher are about the second most broken thing out there. 

Mistborn with atium is a good fight vs 3rd ideal and down.  

Feruchemist can sprint and beat just about anyone so long as they have spent their lives as a blob for long enough before that.  

My personal favorite and one that wasn't asked has to be the godkings.   The whole world around them can be manipulated by thought.  Very hard to sneak up on and can turn a persons clothes into a python around them squeezing and breaking every bone in their body from range with thought.  The downside to the godkings... no healing... not even pewter.  There is speculation a godking could draw all the color out of spheres and potentially ruin a radiants powersource also.  But still full living plate past the 4th ideal is pretty dang imba.

[Honorless]

A full Mistborn with access to all the metals is strong but the Knights Radiant are far too tanky with their Shardplates and Stormlight healing, and then their's also their one-hit Shardblades. On top of all that their Surges. I won't say it's a guarantee, it isn't. Electrum, in particular, is a powerful advantage. The other temporal metals aren't as helpful in this situation. Chromium, I'm not sure if it would work, but if it does, then that gives them a leg up. But Knights Radiant have the advantage in this match-up.

A Feruchemist... it would depend on their gold, steel, pewter and iron reserves. But again, the Knights Radiant have the advantage.

[Duxredux]

What, no Ferrings?

There's just way, way too many undefined parameters on these threads. We're talking fight to the death, right?

• Era 1 or Era 2 Mistborn, Allomancers, and Feruchemists?
• Do they get any equipment? 
• Where are they fighting, downtown Elendel, Luthadel, The Shattered Plains, or Alethkar?
• Are they walking up to each other with full knowledge of the other's abilities or do they come in blind?
• Are we including sneaky backstabbing as a viable win condition?
• For Ferchemists, how much time do they have to prepare, or how full are their Metalminds?
• Do they have access to their necessary Investiture resources to refuel or if not, what is their starting amounts?

*Deep breath*

• How do we rule abilities that are shown on charts but have never or rarely been seen? 
  • Feruchemical Fortune
  • Division
  • Can Aluminum hats or Copperclouds block emotion spren from sensing you?
  • The full effect of Leeching on Radiants (Blade, Light, Plate)
  • Could only Vin use Bronze to hear someone in the Cognitive Realm using Investiture (Kelsier fueled by Preservation)?
  • Lightwoven lasers?
  • 5th Ideal Radiants?
• What level of combat training and experience do they have, as most of our book viewpoints are of the cream of the crop?

Yeah... to me there's way too many factors. As far as I know, none of the Radiants have supernatural sensory abilities (except for seeing into Shadesmar and watching spren behavior) and their Investiture is on a use-it-or-lose-it basis, which makes games of hide-and-seek very bad for them, though some spren can make good scouts. The rate of Investiture usage between the different combatants can make a big difference in a protracted fight, and the ability of a Feruchemist to with time and hiding build their Metalmind stores while the Radiant's Light fades from their body and spheres could decide a battle. If you have them run up and attack each other until dead, sure, Radiants have an advantage with healing, and were specifically created to fight in large scale wars, but that's not how Mistborn or Feruchemists usually fight if they don't have to. The location makes a huge difference whenever hide tactics become viable strategies for victory. For that matter, 1 v 1 removes an incredibly powerful advantage that most Knights Radiant have, which is to turn their buddies into squires, something that Allomancy and Feruchemy can't do without Lerasium, Hemalurgy, or Southern Scadrian Medallion tech. Yeah... I could argue a lot of directions based on how the battle is setup.

 

Also, why so much fighting?

Now if we're talking a competition like an eating contest between Kelsier and Kaladin, then it depends on what rumors about Kelsier are true. Basic Mistborn to 4th Ideal Windrunner, then it depends on what's on the line, is Bridge 4 in danger if Kaladin loses? Will he notice Kelsier slipping poison/kremling into his pie or hotdog? In a straight contest it probably depends on who runs out of Pewter or Stormlight first, since both are big tall men. If Kelsier is a Kandra that may not need to sleep and can purge eaten food, that's pretty hard to beat. If he's a Fullborn that can compound Determination and Wakefulness in addition to storing calories, he could probably outlast even Lift, even if the contest stretched into months and years If he could zip away with Speed to get more metal. He'd have to really want it though. Being able to store his memories so he doesn't remember just how long he had been eating could probably help too.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Duxredux
added another thought

[NameIess]

Enough Atium and the Mistborn would win a straight-up fight against any order of Radiant, at any ideal. Otherwise they likely lose in a straight-up fight. A feruchemist could win with enough store of F-gold or F-steel, F-pewter.

[Rg2045]

27 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Enough Atium and the Mistborn would win a straight-up fight against any order of Radiant, at any ideal. Otherwise they likely lose in a straight-up fight. A feruchemist could win with enough store of F-gold or F-steel, F-pewter.

And how would they penetrate shardplate? Even atium misting died in the battle of hathsin just because you can see what about to happen doesn’t mean 1) you always will (can run out) 2) will dodge the blow

[NameIess]

40 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

And how would they penetrate shardplate? Even atium misting died in the battle of hathsin just because you can see what about to happen doesn’t mean 1) you always will (can run out) 2) will dodge the blow

They would penetrate Shardplate by dodging repeatedly until the Radiant ran out of Stormlight, then slowly cracking it.(assuming live Plate works without Stormlight) Atium mistings did not die while burning Atium, they died when they ran out of Atium, after fighting for several hours.

[Rg2045]

13 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They would penetrate Shardplate by dodging repeatedly until the Radiant ran out of Stormlight, then slowly cracking it.(assuming live Plate works without Stormlight) Atium mistings did not die while burning Atium, they died when they ran out of Atium, after fighting for several hours.

With literal troves of atium, an unprecedented amount. At max a regular mistborn has 2 mins of atium, and their glass daggers are more then useless against shardplate. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

With literal troves of atium, an unprecedented amount. At max a regular mistborn has 2 mins of atium, and their glass daggers are more then useless against shardplate. 

Pretty much this.  It is a huge stretch to believe atium can outlast even a few chips worth of stormlight. 

This whole topic, as others have said, depends on so many variables that it can't really ever be decided.  

Personally I think there are much more useful combinations of metals than just using atium as the answer for mistborn beating everything.

Atium just doesn't last long enough to wear down a radiants stormlight and get past the plate alone.  

Atium could certainly help you get out of a sticky situation.  But even a perfect glass dagger through the eye wouldn't be useful as the stormlight would just heal it forever.  

Perhaps if the mistborn with atium also had an aluminum weapon and was able to lodge it through an eye slit into the radiants CNS... but even then that radiant is only dead until the aluminum is removed I would imagine.  You would have to 1 shot the radiant with aluminum to shut off the healing from stormlight and then leech all of the stormlight from around them before removing to aluminum.... and then in true vampire fashion burn the body and scatter the ashes so that they don't magically get plotarmored back together until they come back as cognitive shadows placed into some random body or something insane like that... 

 

[Trusk'our]

I like Scadrial and it's magic systems, and if I'm being honest, I'm a little biased because Mistborn was the first book of Brandon Sanderson's that I read, introducing me to the Cosmere.

That being said, a well practiced Radiant of 3rd oath or higher is going to be really hard for even Mistborn to beat because they can regenerate from most injuries almost instantly, and they have massive vorpal blades with a near immunity to steelpushing/ironpulling. 

A trained full Feruchemist or Steelrunner with plenty of attributes stored up might be able to overwhelm a Radiant, but any injuries they inflict could still be healed, unless the Feruchemist can do so much damage in such a short time frame as to kill them, which would be insanely hard without access to compounding.

A Mistborn with Atium is kind of cheating, since Atium is a bit of a McGuffin, but they could use it to get in close to a Radiant and sap their Stormlight via chromium, probably letting them win in most of those scenarios. 

A Fullborn with some experience and enough metal isn't going to be particularly challenged by even a 4th oath Radiant, and unless a 5th oath Radiant get some extremely powerful new abilities, even they wouldn't stand much of a chance. Maybe a Bondsmith could present them with some trouble, but that depends if the Fullborn is actually stupid enough to allow them to ever utilize those their full power since Feruchemical steel, Feruchemical iron, and Allomantic steel allow for amazing maneuverability and can allow for shoving others around telekinetically.

[NameIess]

22 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

With literal troves of atium, an unprecedented amount. At max a regular mistborn has 2 mins of atium, and their glass daggers are more then useless against shardplate. 

Which is why I said with enough Atium a Mistborn would win. And you’re forgetting iron and steel. A Mistborn could use nearby heavy metal objects to crack plate, or use pewter to wield a Shardhammer or similarly massive weapon capable of doing damage to Plate. Vin and Elend regularly used Koloss swords in battle.

after thinking about it, I’d actually give a Mistborn pretty good odds in a fight against a 3rd ideal radiant, especially if they’re in a favorable environment like a city at night. All they have to do is get in close, then leech the Radiant, which works pretty quickly for what we’ve seen. Bonus points if you get the Radiant to dismiss their Blade, as they won’t be able to summon it again:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

Now, the Mistborn’s lack of healing is an issue, but they do at least have a viable win con against a third ideal radiant in a straight-up fight, even without Atium. Fourth ideal, not so much. Assassination, on the other hand, they would be very good at. Walk up to an unsuspecting Radiant while they’re off duty, grab their hand, leech them, then ram an aluminum dagger through their face. They can’t summon Blade or Plate, don’t have Stormlight, and can’t heal while the aluminum’s stuck in them even if they did. Add in soothing to keep them from being suspicious, and copper to keep any investiture detection from working, and you’ve got a very good shot at getting rid of even a Fifth ideal Radiant, assuming they don’t get any powers that counter this.

[Rg2045]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Which is why I said with enough Atium a Mistborn would win. And you’re forgetting iron and steel. A Mistborn could use nearby heavy metal objects to crack plate, or use pewter to wield a Shardhammer or similarly massive weapon capable of doing damage to Plate. Vin and Elend regularly used Koloss swords in battle.

after thinking about it, I’d actually give a Mistborn pretty good odds in a fight against a 3rd ideal radiant, especially if they’re in a favorable environment like a city at night. All they have to do is get in close, then leech the Radiant, which works pretty quickly for what we’ve seen. Bonus points if you get the Radiant to dismiss their Blade, as they won’t be able to summon it again:

Now, the Mistborn’s lack of healing is an issue, but they do at least have a viable win con against a third ideal radiant in a straight-up fight, even without Atium. Fourth ideal, not so much. Assassination, on the other hand, they would be very good at. Walk up to an unsuspecting Radiant while they’re off duty, grab their hand, leech them, then ram an aluminum dagger through their face. They can’t summon Blade or Plate, don’t have Stormlight, and can’t heal while the aluminum’s stuck in them even if they did. Add in soothing to keep them from being suspicious, and copper to keep any investiture detection from working, and you’ve got a very good shot at getting rid of even a Fifth ideal Radiant, assuming they don’t get any powers that counter this.

Plate isn’t summoned it can be dismissed but isn’t most of the time. Also enough atium is like saying enough stormlight and radiants are immortal 

[NameIess]

10 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Plate isn’t summoned it can be dismissed but isn’t most of the time.

Plate is not summoned most of the time. Just because it take the form of Plate most of the time does not mean it is summoned.

13 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

Also enough atium is like saying enough stormlight and radiants are immortal 

Your point? My statement remains valid.

[Duxredux]

I agree that comparatively Mistborn are far, far better at quiet assassination than most Radiants. Tin and Bronze should make it really, really hard to sneak up on a Mistborn, though I don't know if they can detect Lightweaving or an Elsecaller in Shadesmar. Most Radiants light up like a beacon whenever they use their abilities.

Now this is a dumb strategy, but could result in some potentially advantageous or goofy scenarios. Again, we haven't seen this in action, but a lot of Radiants could get in serious trouble if you Nicrobursted them. Windrunner shoots into the sky at insane speeds, burning through all of their Stormlight, Edgedancer grows a tree or becomes entirely frictionless, etc.. I guess it depends on if there's a difference between resistance to Leeching compared to Nicrosil (accidentally typed Nicrosyl, now I wonder how Syl would report the experience).

[Rg2045]

14 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Plate is not summoned most of the time. Just because it take the form of Plate most of the time does not mean it is summoned.

Your point? My statement remains valid.

One plate is mentioned as always their, just because it’s hidden doesn’t mean it’s gone 

two if one side gets unlimited atium the other gets unlimited stormlight. (Only fair) and in that fight no matter how long it goes the radiant will win: stabbed in the neck? Don’t worry it’ll take a second to heal. 
shot in the head with a crossbow? Just pull it out.

literally the only for sure way to kill a radiant with unlimited stormlight is to completely destroy the brain like with a shotgun. And even then we don’t know for certain if that’ll kill them. Atium makes a mistborn slippery but it’s only a matter of time before they fall. In fact I think they would sooner ascend as ruin (an atium salvant) then kill a radiant. 

[Letryx13]

12 hours ago, Rune said:

Okay, so I’m taking a little from Jedi vs Knight Radiants here but what about Knight Radiants vs allomancers?

 1) mistborn vs Knight Radiant

2) misting vs Knight Radiant

3) feruchemist vs Knight Radiant

4) twinborn vs Knight Radiant

5) fullborn vs Knight Radiant

6) Kelsier vs Kaladin (or some other high end Radiants like Dalinar)

You can pick the specific orders/oath level and metals

• For the most part, I'm excluding BondSmiths, since we don't really know the upper limits of their power. I am also acting under the assumption these are straight up fights, such as duels or on a battlefield, not assassination attempts or fighting under their own ideal circumstances. Plate will be discussed and since we're mostly comparing the various magic users of Scadrial against Radiants, I'm using the other nine orders in general, without going into any specific order.

1) Hard to say. A full MistBorn seems about on par with a Knight Radiant, without plate.  Even emotional allomancy could be effective against them.  But Radiants have the stronger recovery and stamina, so I'd lean toward Knight Radiant, but in a 65% Radiant 35% Mistborn way.  With Steel and Duralumin they could probably crack plate enough to do damage, but that would be difficult, so it's more 85% to 15% with plate.

2) Knight radiant, hands down.  Maybe Seer Mistings could compete, but they'd have a hard time dealing enough damage (if any) before their atium ran out.

3) This one is hard to say, since there's not really a limit to how much a feruchemist could store, except by how much metal they are wearing. A SteelRunner could theoretically stab a Radiant with their own sword while they're still holding it, but that would be tricky to pull off, even with increased strength stored with pewter. Or with enough strength they could break through plate. This all boils down to how much the FeruChemist has stored in their metalminds. I think they'd need a lot to beat a Radiant (obviously more if plate is involved), but with enough, they could.

4) Twinborns are tricky, but I think they could only beat a radiant is if they had a large amount of feruchemical charge in a pewter or steel metal mind or were using steal or pewter compounding for unlimited superspeed or strength.  Gold compounding is the other valuable one, but doesn't offer any offensive options. Maybe an iron compounder could pull themselves into the air and increase their weight to crush the radiant, but that seems tricky to pull off. Steel or pewter compunders could probably beat radiants, but I doubt any others could.

5) Fullborn, unquestionably. Maybe, maybe a fully realized BondSmith could match up, but impossible to say. We don't know a BondSmith's full potential yet, but Rashek said he defeated entire armies before. Most Radiant's can't match that.

6) I think Brandon confirmed Kaladin would win on a battlefield, but Kelsier would win otherwise. But that was back before Kaladin earned his plate. So probably Kaladin now.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Perhaps if the mistborn with atium also had an aluminum weapon and was able to lodge it through an eye slit into the radiants CNS... but even then that radiant is only dead until the aluminum is removed I would imagine.  You would have to 1 shot the radiant with aluminum to shut off the healing from stormlight and then leech all of the stormlight from around them before removing to aluminum.... and then in true vampire fashion burn the body and scatter the ashes so that they don't magically get plotarmored back together until they come back as cognitive shadows placed into some random body or something insane like that... 

 

Note that the eye slit can be closed even on dead plate, and the faceplate can simply turn translucent. So the plan relying on presence of eye-slit depends on Radiant knowingly keeping an opening for enemy to exploit.

48 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Which is why I said with enough Atium a Mistborn would win. And you’re forgetting iron and steel. A Mistborn could use nearby heavy metal objects to crack plate, or use pewter to wield a Shardhammer or similarly massive weapon capable of doing damage to Plate. Vin and Elend regularly used Koloss swords in battle.

Conversely, with enough Stormlight Elsecaller could soulcast Fullborn, so saying enough is a bit of a cheating though.

Regularly used amounts of atium are minute or two at best, which would not be enough to get through plate. It would give them a chance though.
Shardhammer are also heavy enough that two people have issue just lifting it, so even Mistborn would have to constantly flare pewter just to be able to handle it somewhat, leaving themselves much less agile.

52 minutes ago, Nameless said:

after thinking about it, I’d actually give a Mistborn pretty good odds in a fight against a 3rd ideal radiant, especially if they’re in a favorable environment like a city at night. All they have to do is get in close, then leech the Radiant, which works pretty quickly for what we’ve seen. Bonus points if you get the Radiant to dismiss their Blade, as they won’t be able to summon it again:

If they are leeching Radiant can stab them, as while Radiant could withstand stab to the neck Mistborn could not. If they are simultaneously burning atium, that is another question.
If the blade is already summoned, they can kill Mistborn and question is if atium would be enough to let them dodge 2meters long shapeshifting weapon while standing right next to the wielder. Atium is good, but it can be overcome, and you must be able to dodge.

Larkin, nightblood, leechers all work along similar principles, yet Larkin are not historically known as Radiant (or Fused) killing animals. Or even mentioned as historically being used against them, which if the leeching was as effective they most likely would be. (Note: I know this is a second hand argument at best, and not that strong, just thought it is potentially useful viewpoint).

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

9 minutes ago, therunner said:

Note that the eye slit can be closed even on dead plate, and the faceplate can simply turn translucent. So the plan relying on presence of eye-slit depends on Radiant knowingly keeping an opening for enemy to exploit.

This pretty much sums up my biggest issues with radiants in general.  Where is the weakness?   There really is none.  I have a hard time digesting the idea that the desolations weren't flawless victories thousands of years ago with impenetrable armor that has not a single weak point. 

"Oh you can't see with that visor down?  Don't worry let me turn invisible for you while offering all of the benefits of having not a single squishy spot on you." -the lesser spren that could to rando radiant x.

I liked the idea that emotional allomancy might help and that was also answered that plate stops investiture... so while wearing plate your radiants are also immune to things being awakened under their plate and they are immune to being soulcast as well as having emotional nukes dropped on them. 

With invisible all encompassing armor, a sword that cuts through all the things, and a bondsmith to give you endless stormlight behind you it is actually embarrassing for the radiants.  

My rant being over, I still enjoy thinking about what could happen in these scenarios to make the radiant on a level playing field.  

The future holds a lot of hope for scadrial.  Scadrials hope comes in the form of their tech.  

Medallion tech will only become stronger as will their weapons.  Who cares about a shardblade when you have access to leeching grenades and time dilation devices?  A large enough caliber round shooting rapidly enough through a bendalloy bubble plus steel sight lines showing which of those bullets are on the correct trajectory to selectively shove on vs plate may be somewhat effective.  

Obviously this is talking about things far outside of magic X vs magic Y and fabrials will undoubtedly create some good shenanigans for roshar in the future as well but it could be said that the danger of dying would propel one side in a tech race (plus zinc compounding granted to scientists via medallions in the future) far faster than the side who waits with faith in their indestructible tanks of knights.  

Then again I am still a fan of kalads phantoms gaining access to shardlike blades... heck have enough invested stone golems with fused leeching spears and that would make for interesting story telling too... 

But yeah the shardplate is pretty op and living plate ends most discussions of magic X vs radiants.  What worlds the fights take place on makes a huge difference too though.  Roshars biggest issue currently in the vs battles is that they are the best turtles.  If they never branch out and over extend even 1 system further then they are going to be fine. They just can't yet transport stormlight for long enough to be effective in any other system.  

 

[NameIess]

21 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

One plate is mentioned as always their, just because it’s hidden doesn’t mean it’s gone 

Yes, it is always there, ready to be summoned. The exact quote from RoW is:

Quote

Rlain couldn't feel the Plate, though it was apparently always there--invisible, but ready when needed. Like a Shardblade, but made up of many spren

In other words, the Plate spren are always prepared to be summoned, but are invisible and unsummoned most of the time, just like a Radiant spren normally is. I don't see anything that implies Plate is constantly solid, and I see plenty (Lirin hugging Kaladin without noticing that his chest has somehow expanded to at least double its normal size) that implies it isn't.

28 minutes ago, Rg2045 said:

two if one side gets unlimited atium the other gets unlimited stormlight. (Only fair) and in that fight no matter how long it goes the radiant will win: stabbed in the neck? Don’t worry it’ll take a second to heal. 
shot in the head with a crossbow? Just pull it out.

literally the only for sure way to kill a radiant with unlimited stormlight is to completely destroy the brain like with a shotgun. And even then we don’t know for certain if that’ll kill them. Atium makes a mistborn slippery but it’s only a matter of time before they fall. In fact I think they would sooner ascend as ruin (an atium salvant) then kill a radiant. 

Well, that works until you bring in aluminum weapons. And besides that, the Mistborn only needs like 20 minutes of Atium to win, not infinite.

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Conversely, with enough Stormlight Elsecaller could soulcast Fullborn, so saying enough is a bit of a cheating though.

I don't see that as 'cheating'. I didn't say that any Mistborn could kill a fourth ideal Radiant in a battle, I gave the conditions I believed they could win under. Those conditions are unrealistic? Why does that matter? I gave the conditions I thought a Mistborn would need to win. 15 minutes of Atium at minimum, preferably 20 minutes or more, on a battlefield with plenty of metal to throw into the Radiant's Plate.

25 minutes ago, therunner said:

Regularly used amounts of atium are minute or two at best, which would not be enough to get through plate. It would give them a chance though.
Shardhammer are also heavy enough that two people have issue just lifting it, so even Mistborn would have to constantly flare pewter just to be able to handle it somewhat, leaving themselves much less agile.

Fair. However, you don't actually need a Shardhammer in order to break Plate. Just a big enough weapon moving at a fast enough speed, which you can get pretty easily by throwing armored soldiers into the Radiant with A-steel and iron.

37 minutes ago, therunner said:

If they are leeching Radiant can stab them, as while Radiant could withstand stab to the neck Mistborn could not. If they are simultaneously burning atium, that is another question.

Radiants don't generally carry weapons besides their Shardblade, at least not as far as I'm aware. So if the Radiant hasn't summoned their Blade, it's a fight between an armed, pewter-enhanced assassin and an unarmed, probably a little confused, soldier. Not exactly one you'd expect the average man to win.

43 minutes ago, therunner said:

If the blade is already summoned, they can kill Mistborn and question is if atium would be enough to let them dodge 2meters long shapeshifting weapon while standing right next to the wielder. Atium is good, but it can be overcome, and you must be able to dodge.

Yes, Atium would be good enough. The only time we've seen someone's atium overcome it was against Vin, the most skilled Mistborn of all time, and she did it by reacting to him, not by giving him a no-win situation. Given aluminum daggers, a Mistborn can block and dodge, plus they have Pewter while the Radiant has no Stormligh. A Mistborn with a minute or two of Atium would shred a third-ideal Radiant quite easily. My point was that a Mistborn would have a decent chance without Atium. Get in close, leech a Radiant, get them to drop their Blade, and they've basically won. If the Radiant in question is not a Skybreaker or Windrunner, a Mistborn could win by just flying around them and using coins.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Larkin, nightblood, leechers all work along similar principles, yet Larkin are not historically known as Radiant (or Fused) killing animals. Or even mentioned as historically being used against them, which if the leeching was as effective they most likely would be. (Note: I know this is a second hand argument at best, and not that strong, just thought it is potentially useful viewpoint).

Given that we've seen Larkins and Larkin-like creatures used against both Radiants and Fused in the books, I think it's safe to say that's just due to the historical info being lost.

[Duxredux]

55 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

This pretty much sums up my biggest issues with radiants in general.  Where is the weakness?   There really is none.  I have a hard time digesting the idea that the desolations weren't flawless victories thousands of years ago with impenetrable armor that has not a single weak point. 

"Oh you can't see with that visor down?  Don't worry let me turn invisible for you while offering all of the benefits of having not a single squishy spot on you." -the lesser spren that could to rando radiant x.

I liked the idea that emotional allomancy might help and that was also answered that plate stops investiture... so while wearing plate your radiants are also immune to things being awakened under their plate and they are immune to being soulcast as well as having emotional nukes dropped on them. 

With invisible all encompassing armor, a sword that cuts through all the things, and a bondsmith to give you endless stormlight behind you it is actually embarrassing for the radiants. 

Well, they did win every single Desolation until the last one. Humanity never got wiped out completely, and that was only with 10 Heralds that could remember and train a whole new batch every time compared to all of the Fused who were endlessly reborn. At the end of each bout every time but the last the Heralds left to seal the enemy on Braize, leaving Roshar to figure things out. Notably Taln's rambling considered the Radiants as something new that Ishar had come up with, so that may or may not give a time frame before the Aharietiam.

No, their weakness are in other forms outside of straight combat. By necessity, many of them have mental issues, cracks in their soul, so not all of them are terribly stable. Because they follow a code of conduct that they have to obey to maintain their Oaths, you can force them into specific situations as the Lezian and Raboniel did to Kaladin. Fused have Voidbinding abilities that they can use indefinitely compared to how a Radiant always burns through their Stormlight. I should also note that most Bondsmiths are not Dalinar Kholin or Ishar and will not do as well in combat as is usually suggested in these threads. Opening up a Perpendicularity is not something that can be done constantly or indefinitely, and I suspect that once you start getting into Stormlight usage it becomes quite different. The Alethi Princedoms just spent 5 years harvesting gigantic gemhearts from Chasmfiends, so they likely have an unusually high level of Stormlight storage capacity for each Radiant, particularly because they may still have low Radiant numbers compared to before the Recreance. There's also a danger where if the Radiant is killed, presumably all of their Squires lose their abilities. They are far from unbeatable, and what we see in the books may put them in unusually favorable odds on an individual basis. Whenever we see Kaladin fighting these days he's carrying around a fortune in his pouch.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Duxredux
added another thought

[NameIess]

12 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Well, they did win every single Desolation until the last one. Humanity never got wiped out completely, and that was only with 10 Heralds that could remember and train a whole new batch every time compared to all of the Fused who were endlessly reborn. At the end of each bout every time but the last the Heralds left to seal the enemy on Braize, leaving Roshar to figure things out. Notably Taln's rambling considered the Radiants as something new that Ishar had come up with, so that may or may not give a time frame before the Aharietiam.

No, their weakness are in other forms outside of straight combat. By necessity, many of them have mental issues, cracks in their soul, so not all of them are terribly stable. Because they follow a code of conduct that they have to obey to maintain their Oaths, you can force them into specific situations as the Lezian and Raboniel did to Kaladin. Fused have Voidbinding abilities that they can use indefinitely compared to how a Radiant always burns through their Stormlight. I should also note that most Bondsmiths are not Dalinar Kholin or Ishar and will not do as well in combat as is usually suggested in these threads. Opening up a Perpendicularity is not something that can be done constantly or indefinitely, and I suspect that once you start getting into Stormlight usage it becomes quite different. The Alethi Princedoms just spent 5 years harvesting gigantic gemhearts from Chasmfiends, so they likely have an unusually high level of Stormlight storage capacity for each Radiant, particularly because they may still have low Radiant numbers compared to before the Recreance. There's also a danger where if the Radiant is killed, presumably all of their Squires lose their abilities. They are far from unbeatable, and what we see in the books may put them in unusually favorable odds on an individual basis. Whenever we see Kaladin fighting these days he's carrying around a fortune in his pouch.

Actually, Bondsmiths before Dalinar couldn't make perpendicularities at all.

Edit- to be more accurate, Bondsmiths before Honor's death could not summon his perpendicularity.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Nameless

[Duxredux]

13 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Actually, Bondsmiths before Dalinar couldn't make perpendicularities at all.

Edit- to be more accurate, Bondsmiths before Honor's death could not summon his perpendicularity.

Could I have a source on that? Mostly because I don't think I've heard or read that before, and it seems like an important distinction, though perhaps an obvious one. At any rate, the cited WoB may not have cared. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Could I have a source on that? Mostly because I don't think I've heard or read that before, and it seems like an important distinction, though perhaps an obvious one. At any rate, the cited WoB may not have cared. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Sure. When Dalinar first opened the perpendicularity, this was the Stormfather's reaction:

Quote

A direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm, the Stormfather said. You renew spheres, Dalinar?

"We are Connected."

I was bonded to men before. This never happened then.

Ch. 119 p. 1141 of Oathbringer

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Nameless
forgot to put the chapter and page.