Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[Frustration]

If Ishar could so easily hijack the Stormfather's visions why did he stop doing it?

[Jake al'Rober]

Could this Stormfaker be Ishar but as a sliver of Honor? Tanavast trying to hedge his bets. He knows Odium would try and find a way around the Oathpact keeping him on Braize, hense the Stormfather granting people visions. Maybe he gave Ishar just enough of his Investiture to be able to give people visions in an attempt to unite Roshar against Odium returning again. Ishar seeds these visions to whomever he believed is the most influential person on Roshar, and gives them the visions Tanavast created. 

Then the Heralds went crazy. According to the Heralds, it seems maybe Isharlasted longer than the rest, but clearly, at the point we see him, most of his sanity is gone. What started as, "Honor gave me this ability to try and lead others" turned into "I am Tezim, first man, aspect of the Almighty. I alone prepare for the end of worlds." I'm thinking he's right in some way, an imortalt Herald and a sliver of Honor left to warn men. I don't think anyone expect the Heralds to lose their minds in the way they have. 

Who would Honor trust more than the creator of the Oathpact and "A man of seemingly crazed ideas that worked"

[teknopathetic]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If Ishar could so easily hijack the Stormfather's visions why did he stop doing it?

Because he decided to be his own godking in Tukar exactly in the same year. Ishar had to up his timeline when another heard died (as is said in the text). I think whatever his plan was with the Stormfather/Gavilar stopped being a workable option and it would take too much of his time in comparison to other needs. When that herald died, the StormFaker immediately turn in Gavilar and changes strategic direction  

We also don’t know what the goal was overall with Gavilar. It is hard to say if Dalinar was in the way or buying time for Ishar  

Plus, maybe the trick wouldn’t work when someone actually bonded the stormfather. There actually wasn’t too much time between the visions and the bonding. 
 

Basically, a lot changed when a herald died. We see the Stormfaker change their plans almost immediately after months of not years of work on Gavilar. At this exact same time we see Real Ishar become a god king and effectively take the role of the Alethi War King in Tukar

Edited March 30, 2022 by teknopathetic

[mathiau]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If Ishar could so easily hijack the Stormfather's visions why did he stop doing it?

The visions are currently target Dalinar, if Ishar is StormFaker and was serious about never betting on a Kholin again it's logical he would not try to hijack them this time

Also, madness.

[+ShardlessVessel]

If you guys don't mind, I want to draw attention to Thaidakar's "avatar".

It can do a whole bunch of things I was not aware seons were capable of.

• Thaidakar can seemingly control it remotely
• It can grab things - it even simulated using hands to grab the cloak and lower its hood
• It can turn almost invisible
• It can shrink

Last time I checked, seons were talking balls of light. What is this?

[Necessary Eagle]

26 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

He might not have been evil pre-madness, though. I mean, the Oathpact seems pretty self-sacrificing*, and the Stormfather makes it sound like it was not just voluntary, but initiated by the Heralds (they "went to Honor").

I wonder if Ashyn wasn't basically the magical version of an industrial accident.

That's always been my assumption.

[mathiau]

Just now, ShardlessVessel said:

If you guys don't mind, I want to draw attention to Thaidakar's "avatar".

It can do a whole bunch of things I was not aware seons were capable of.

• Thaidakar can seemingly control it remotely
• It can grab things - it even simulated using hands to grab the cloak and lower its hood
• It can turn almost invisible
• It can shrink

Last time I checked, seons were talking balls of light. What is this?

Seons were already able to shapeshift in Elantris, though they only did so to copy face (and expression) of the person on the other side of the selphone. Everything that seon is doing seems to be that but more except for the touching thing part, but that is something we've seen sprens do very often.

[Serack]

Stormfather vs Stormfaker, the arguments collected:

Granted:  I don't think anyone is arguing that Gavilar never interacted with Stormfather, and in the Stormfaker theory, it's even possible that the Stormfather is partially responsible for some, but not all of what Gavilar experiences in the Prologue in his name.  

Arguments for Stormfaker:

1. Stormfather never manifests in the rest of the books except as a face that is nearly infinitely expansive.  The being that manifests to Galivar is just too different.  And not vast enough.  
   • Counter:  It's really hard for a mortal to manifest an "avatar" like that.
2. Gavilar claims the Stormfather lied to him about the heralds being dead.
   • Counter:  Quote of redditor RoboChrist 
     Spoiler

     Quote

     Gavilar shares Dalinar's flaw; they are both excessively confident to the point of hubris. They both tend to assume that the first reasonable explanation they think of is the only explanation, and once they reach a conclusion they never reexamine their assumptions or check to see if they've made a mistake. At least not until after there are catastrophic consequences.

     Dalinar was sure that the Almighty told him to trust Sadeas. Gavilar couldn't believe that he was meeting with Heralds.

     Without seeing his reactions to the visions from start to finish, we don't know for sure that Gavilar didn't simply misunderstand the messages from Honor and the Stormfather. Maybe he asked Honor "Will I become a new Herald?" right before Honor mused to himself "Yes, you must unite them!"

      

      

3. Gavilar thinks the Stormfather is going to help him become a new, replacement Herald, not a Bondsmith.  This seems contradictory to what the Stormfather would have promised with the context of what happened to Dalinar (and WoB)
   • Counter:  The being says (heavily paraphrased) at the end that he will approach his future potential bondsmiths very differently, and this might be part of that.  
4. The reaction to a Herald dying seems more consistent with the other Heralds knowing one of their memebers died, implying the being was Ishar, which really meshes well with #3 above, in that Ishar may have been trying to manipulate Gavilar into taking his place as a Herald.  This is IMO the best argument for Stormfaker.

Arguments that it's truly, and only the Stormfather:

1. WoB is that Gavilar had been on the path to becoming a Bondsmith even longer than Dalinar 
   Spoiler

   Quote

   Ted Herman (paraphrased)

   Has Dalinar been on the Bondsmith path for a long time? How about Gavilar?

   Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

   Yes to both.

   Brandon said that Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path for longer than Dalinar has been.

   Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

    

    

2. WoB is that the Stormfather couldn't tell that Gavilar was responding to the visions differently from how Dalinar was.  With the context of the prologue, this seems to refer to how he didn't understand that Gavilar was trying to exploit him.  
   Spoiler

   Quote

   Questioner

   The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?

   Brandon Sanderson

   He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

   Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

    

    

3. Gavilar was still accessing the visions from The Stormfather
   • Counter:  It's possible the Stormfaker was dovetailing/hacking into a still present Stormfather showing these dreams to him.  Alternately, maybe lightweaving is at play (lightweaving isn't convincing for me)
4. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of someone trying to Stormfake Dalinar.  
5. I just re-read some of the Stormfather's interactions with Dalinar, and some of his extreme grumpyness makes a lot of sense in the context of him feeling like he got burned by Gavilar and has no tolerance for anything remotely exploitive.  This meshes with how the manifestation spoke at the end of the prologue.  
   Spoiler

   Quote

   "Include navani in your responses," Dalinar requested.

   AGAIN, YOU MAKE DEMANDS OF ME.  YOU SHOULD NOT DO THIS.  The voice rumbed in the open air, nd Navani jumped. 
   (Oathbringer Chapter 38)

    

    

6. A theoretical Stormfaker spoofing the Stormfather while he is still active with Gavilar without Stormfather noticing is convoluted and unlikely.  

7. Placeholder

That was a lot of work.  Does anyone have anything to add?

Edit: added #'s 4 and 6 for the arguments against a Stormfaker

Edited March 31, 2022 by Serack

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

FINALLY! Brandon let me have a cameo! lol.

*goes into out of chracter* anyways, I liked it! it was awesome! what if instead of the stormfather it was odium's version of him, like the one that rode the ever storm.

[+mdross81]

This bit about Axindweth is intriguing:

Quote

He had found a way to ferry Voidspren to this world through Shadesmar, using gemstones. Who would have thought Navani’s pet area of study would be so useful? So he’d begun to invest more into sponsoring artifabrians, learning what they were doing with their art.

Because he didn’t just want the Voidbringers here; he wanted them indebted to him. And if that conniving Axindweth eluded his grasp, he’d just have to do it without her.

This seems a very different explanation of her departure than we got from Ulim in RoW 77:

Quote

“Axindweth says she’s been discovered,” he said. “She’s a very specific and rare kind of specialist—the details need not concern you—but there is apparently another of her kind in the palace. An agent for someone else. They found her and turned the human king against her. She’s decided to pull out.”

From this it sounds like Gavilar wanted to continue working with her. The inference is that she had somehow helped him to bring Voidspren through to Roshar and that, without her help, he’d need fabrials to do it.  Which begs two questions:

1. Why did Axindweth actually stop helping Gavilar?

2. Why did she lie to Ulim about her reasons for leaving?

[+ShardlessVessel]

Just now, mathiau said:

Seons were already able to shapeshift in Elantris, though they only did so to copy face (and expression) of the person on the other side of the selphone. Everything that seon is doing seems to be that but more except for the touching thing part, but that is something we've seen sprens do very often.

The "videoconference" behavior didn't surprise me, it was the other stuff. I was under the impression that seons didn't have much physicality, so seeing one acting like it has hands was jarring.

And there's the way Thaidakar seems to be controlling the seon. Maybe they just rehearsed that, or the seon can choose not to let some words through (like "pull down the cloak", "turn invisible" and "make a dramatic exit"). It almost seems like he's possessing the seon, though.

Perhaps he's controlling it like he would a Hemalurgic construct, which is an.. interesting thought when you consider that spren may be susceptible.

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, ShardlessVessel said:

The "videoconference" behavior didn't surprise me, it was the other stuff. I was under the impression that seons didn't have much physicality, so seeing one acting like it has hands was jarring.

As I said, many sprens become able to do that when they get close enough in the PR

Quote

And there's the way Thaidakar seems to be controlling the seon. Maybe they just rehearsed that, or the seon can choose not to let some words through (like "pull down the cloak", "turn invisible" and "make a dramatic exit"). It almost seems like he's possessing the seon, though.

As I said, the floating head Seons already did that

[+ILuvHats]

Quote

"What are you?" Gavilar whispered, hoarse.

"The biggest fool of them all," the Stormfather said, "and the thing that has miscalculated. Goodbye Gavilar. I've seen a glimpse of what is coming, and I will not prevent it."

The biggest fool of who all? It could be a turn of phrase, and referring to them in a broad sense. But this makes a lot of sense as the greatest fool among the Heralds if this is Ishar speaking. There are a lot of comments like this in the intro that make more sense if Ishar's speaking, but I don't really want to go through and transliterate them all. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

Because he decided to be his own god/king in Tukar almost exactly in the same year. Ishar had to up his timeline when another heard died (as is said in the text). I think whatever his plan was with the Stormfather stopped being a workable option, or it would take too much of his time in comparison to other needs. 

We also don’t know what the goal was  maybe Ishar now didn’t care too much if someone was opposing Odium for a time  

Plus, maybe the trick wouldn’t work when someone actually bonded the stormfather. There actually wasn’t too much time between the visions and the bonding. 
 

Basically, a lot changed when a herald died. We see the Stormfaker change their plans almost immediately after months of not years of work on Gavilar. 

Ok, explain to me what he needed to hijack the stormfather's visions for, which somehow the Stormfather didn't notice, so that he could try and make either a Bondsmith or Herald. Yet felt no need to rush them, but rather focused on finding the perfect individual to fit the job. 

What could that accomplish that somehow forming his own kingdom is faster at?

If he has his blade why worry about not having the right person for the job? He could make anyone the right person.

His plans did not change immediatly, he dicided that Gavilar was the wrong person, he says "If I try again I will do it differently" at 57:40 He still wants someone to say the words.

Additionally Gavilar is probably the only one who thinks he is going to become a Herald "Oh Gavilar, there is so much you do not know. So much you assume, and the two never do manage to meet." 53:02

[Serack]

@Frustration,

I'm adding to my pro's and con's post that a Stormfaker spoofing an active Stormfather without him noticing is convoluted.  

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Serack said:

@Frustration,

I'm adding to my pro's and con's post that a Stormfaker spoofing an active Stormfather without him noticing is convoluted.  

Thank you.

[teknopathetic]

46 minutes ago, Serack said:

.  Arguments for Stormfaker:

1. I would add the phrasing. The Stormfake says some really weird things like calling Gavilar a “tool” or saying the StromFaker will create a place for endless warfare. Those are all very weird things. 
 

2. Also, the StormFaker lies multiple times. I feel Syl would be horrified to learn her Father would lie to someone. Syl seems to think lies are very far from Honour. I could see the Stormfather rumbling uncomfortably at a lie, but I could never see him knowingly make one (especially so frequently and with no remorse) 

3. attention is drawn to the fact in text that sometimes the StormFaker seems like a human man and sometimes like a spirit. This could be an intent reference to him sometimes interacting with the OG father and sometimes with the Faker

4. Syl had interacted with the Stormfather on screen as well, and the Syl Stormfather is exactly like the Dalinar Stormfather. Every Stormfather we have seen has been consistent. Only this one, which is strange in maybe 8 different levels, is off. It is convoluted to assume the Stormfather made a 180* personality flip in 6 years. Every indication is given that the Stormfather we see has different motives, manifestations, personality traits, and even manifests differently. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

1. I would add the phrasing. The Stormfake says some really weird things like calling Gavilar a “tool” or saying the StromFaker will create a place for endless warfare. Those are all very weird things. 

I'm pretty sure it was Gavilar that said he would make a place of endless war.

[Serack]

2 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

1. I would add the phrasing. The Stormfake says some really weird things like calling Gavilar a “tool” or saying the StromFaker will create a place for endless warfare. Those are all very weird things. 
 

2. Also, the StormFaker lies multiple times. I feel Syl would be horrified to learn her Father would lie to someone. Syl seems to think lies are very far from Honour. I could see the Stormfather rumbling uncomfortably at a lie, but I could never see him knowingly make one (especially so frequently and with no remorse) 

I'll have to re-listen to it, but I don't remember it quite the way you portray #1.  As for your #2, I already wrote about the lies.  However, I don't think we saw him lie once in the prologue, just in what Gavilar remembers of past understandings which we don't have context for.  Please see the counter argument in my earlier post.

[danex]

omg this was amazing

i completely freaked out when we got to see kelsier
might've squealed 

correct me if i'm wrong but this is the first time we've seen him on-screen since secret history right?

i love how even though its from Gavilar's perspective, those of us who know kelsier really well can still totally tell what's going on in his head. Really shows how good of an author Brandon is, he's able to make his charcters feel incredibly consistent, even from PoVs that know nothing about said character. 

from a cursory glance at the rest of this thread, people are saying that this might not be the actual stormfather?
I think it is.
it doesn't make sense from a writing perspective for it to be a different spren imo
the way this reads feels like a reveal to me like "holy crap the stormfather can lie????" not "hmmmm is this actually the stormfather?"
if it was "hmmm is this actually the stormfather" i think brandon would have him lie, but then have Gavilar not notice. So it'd be something for the reader to notice, and realize. Because gavilar did notice, it reads so much more like a reveal, which then wouldnt make sense if it wasnt the stormfather. 

i think this might be setting up some Dalinar/Stormfather conflict later in the book.

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

2 minutes ago, Dannnex said:

omg this was amazing

i completely freaked out when we got to see kelsier
might've squealed 

correct me if i'm wrong but this is the first time we've seen him on-screen since secret history right?

i love how even though its from Gavilar's perspective, those of us who know kelsier really well can still totally tell what's going on in his head. Really shows how good of an author Brandon is, he's able to make his charcters feel incredibly consistent, even from PoVs that know nothing about said character. 

from a cursory glance at the rest of this thread, people are saying that this might not be the actual stormfather?
I think it is.
it doesn't make sense from a writing perspective for it to be a different spren imo
the way this reads feels like a reveal to me like "holy crap the stormfather can lie????" not "hmmmm is this actually the stormfather?"
if it was "hmmm is this actually the stormfather" i think brandon would have him lie, but then have Gavilar not notice. So it'd be something for the reader to notice, and realize. Because gavilar did notice, it reads so much more like a reveal, which then wouldnt make sense if it wasnt the stormfather. 

i think this might be setting up some Dalinar/Stormfather conflict later in the book.

oooh I would like that last thing.

so you liked my cameo.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Thaidakar the Ghostblood

[Serack]

@LewsTherinTelescope,

I put a lot of effort into summarizing the main discussion going on in this topic about the theory that someone is impersonating The Stormfather here

 

Do you think you could link this in the OP, or could I possibly make a new post of it?

[Ashbringer]

My current take: Gavilar is an idiot.

 

I also think the Stormfather's appearance is really similar to a certain pair of mist spirits... I'm in Team Tanavast. Or at least a fragment of Tanavast.

[danex]

1 minute ago, Serack said:

@LewsTherinTelescope,

I put a lot of effort into summarizing the main discussion going on in this topic about the theory that someone is impersonating The Stormfather here

 

Do you think you could link this in the OP, or could I possibly make a new post of it?

speaking of that post, i think i have another argument for it being a Stormfaker

he says "not even close" when gavilar says something that is actually really close to the first ideal

[PurpurPhönix]

3 minutes ago, Dannnex said:

he says "not even close" when gavilar says something that is actually really close to the first ideal

But he's not looking for the words to become a Radiant, he's looking for the words to become a Herald, could just be very different words