Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[AmNike]

12 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

My current take: Gavilar is an idiot.

 

I also think the Stormfather's appearance is really similar to a certain pair of mist spirits... I'm in Team Tanavast. Or at least a fragment of Tanavast.

This is what I was initially thinking as well. The inability to manifest fully in a human-like form seems pretty similar to Fuzz, but possibly manifesting in the Roshar version of it. I mean, if Preservation/Fuzz manifests in the mists, then it would make a lot of sense for Honor/Tanavast to manifest in a shimmer.

[Gnmish]

19 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I am so excited my Shallan killed her mother-herald theory is looking very likely! 

As soon as they went out of their way to discuss Chana's red hair I thought something was up....then a Herald died...... Oh.....snap!

[AmNike]

9 hours ago, RedBlue said:

I disagree with the theory that this Stormfather is an imposter. 

My main reason is that I find it to be an unnecessary complication. The Stormfather is acting completely in character the whole time. His voice and mannerisms are the same. He’s still bad-tempered, lacking in empathy and communication skills, and thinks he’s above everyone else. He’s a bully. He dislikes humans, which is why he views Gavilar as a tool to be manipulated, not as an equal partner.

The big change in his behaviour is how he treats Gavilar differently than he treats Dalinar. This makes perfect sense, given that he regrets how his efforts with Gavilar ended. He has given up on the Kholins as useful tools, so during WoK and WoR, he keeps Dalinar at arm’s length. During OB and RoW, the Radiants and Singers are back, so Stormfather grudgingly ‘helps’ (I suspect he’s still holding out on Dalinar).

There is also the change in the way the Stormfather presents himself (sometimes appearing to Gavilar as a human-shaped figure). I think this is a minor difference, as we know that normal spren can change their appearance like this at will, and often do so as a means of expressing themselves. Appearing as a vaguely-human shimmer is part of the Stormfather’s attempt to manipulate Gavilar. He doesn’t use it on Dalinar because the situation between them is very different.

A secondary reason is that I’m not convinced by the Stormfaker theory is: there’s nobody who could successfully imitate the Stormfather. Ishar may be able to do something with Connection, but he’s insane. He’s nowhere near functional enough to keep up this charade for years without breaking character. Likewise, this doesn’t seem like a plan Rayse would come up with, even assuming it would be possible (seems unlikely). And if it’s some other spren, like another chunk of Honor - why haven’t we heard about it before now?

In short: if it talks like a Stormfather and rumbles like a Stormfather, chances are it’s the Stormfather.

There are two problems I have with your tl;dr version of this. First, we know that Tanavast merged is Cognitive Shadow with Stormfather as he began to die, meaning that Stormfather isn't actually acting like Stormfather (the being that has existed since before the Shattering). Instead, Stormfather is acting like Tanavast. With Fuzz, we have a way to argue that this fake Stormfather could simply be another splinter of Honor that retained parts of the personality of Tanavast. We know that by the time of his supposed death, Tanavast was raving mad, more concerned with obeying the spirit of Honor than the law of Honor. This allows him to lie and act ill tempered as we see him do in the prologue. Second, we have Fuzz to show that we can have a Shard manifest in a similar way to their primary manifestation of Investiture. Fuzz turns into a mist wraith on the physical realm, so it would make a lot of sense for Tanavast's splinter to manifest as a spren-like human figure made of light, not quite distinct enough to have a full form.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

If Gavilar's Stormfather is Tanavast, I'm heavily on the "he didn't lie, Gav just made assumptions" train. And even then, I have a hard time picturing late-stage Tanavast as being manipulative enough to lie by omission for so long.

 

(*puts on aluminum hat* the entity that Gavilar is talking to is the Stormfather, Ishar, Tanavast, and -why not?- Sja-Anat holding a conference call. You heard it here first, folks)

Edited March 31, 2022 by Necessary Eagle

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Yes, and now that Blade is missing. The Blade Taln has when he turns up in WoK isn’t his Honorblade, it’s a dead Shardblade. We still don’t know where the Honorblade is. And we don’t know how he got the dead Shardblade. He can’t have died with it, since dead Blades didn’t exist at the time. 

It is missing but Charchach did not bring it ro Braize it was already there.

6 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

Forgive me if the words that come from their mouths are less than trustworthy. They did not even have to coordinate to easily manipulate someone that they knew to be unstable at best. 

The base stormfather that we have seen to this point is so starkly different to what we have seen that chalking it up to a change in methods seems for too extreme to easily explain what we see in this prologue. 

Taravangian said it to himself, and it was in the Diagram.

"She handed him a small bundle of his favorite jams, all the way from Shinovar. Those were increasingly rare, now that the trade into the strange country had cut off. The Diagram indicated it was likely one or more of the Unmade had set up there." -RoW page 292

 

6 hours ago, Cocoa said:

As for the Bondsmith WoB, if Ishar was trying to find a way to replace himself with Gavilar in the Oathpact, then I would certainly say Gavilar was on the path to being a Bondsmith... just a Bondsmith Herald, not a Bondsmith Radiant.

The only thing that required to be a Bondsmith is the Honorblade, actually taking Ishar's place in the Oathpact wouldn't do anything.

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

2) I don't know if she ever reclaimed her Honorblade but she does mention going to Shinovar for it. So StormFaker could just be an illusion.

No, she was just in Shinovar

"'They[the Shin] are . . . Unpredictabe,' the Herald said. 'I eventually left them behind. They tried to kill me, but that I could take. It was when they started to worship me . . .'" -RoW Page 248

[Friendshipspren he/him]

I think stormfaker is actually one of the Unmade , possibly Dai-Gonarthis.

It wanted to somehow turn Gavilar into a Void Herald but needed him to say something other than anything similar to the Radiant Ideals. 

Quote

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”
 

Passionate. Power hungry words. Seems very voidish.

Maybe Unmade require different Words, different Ideals. 

Quote

A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know...

I think it's an Unmade trying to be god , like BAM 2.0 . It wanted gav to become a new Herald and hold off Odium for atleast a few centuries  or such ( perhaps it thought taln was almost gonna give up ) during which time it's power could wax. It was afraid that now Odium would see it trying to usurp him and crush him.

[king of nowhere]

If tanavast merged with the stormfather, then gavilar was still interacting with the stormfather.

The way i see it, every mild difference in mannerism can be easily explained in the very same experiences the stormfather was having here. We often complained on how uncooperative he is, and this explains it: he tried being cooperative, and he got betrayed for it. He gave informations, and gavilar used them against him. 

As for the herald stuff, it could have been the plan back then, before the desolation started. Find new heralds, restore the oathpact. Then the new desolation came, and the plan changed.

After gavilar, the stormfather dtarted giving visions to a random guy that was killed by taravangian's silent gatherers, it's in some epigraph. By then dalinar was changed - and perhaps cultivation also implanted connection in him. Anyway, the stormfather must have realized that a random guy taken from the street, no matter how good he could be, can't do what he needs - he needs someone who's already in power. Cue dalinar...

I find all the small discrepancies a lot more easily explained by character development on the stormfather in the intervening years. More easily explained than someone else hijacking the stormfather.

Edit: though i will admit, there is enough ambiguity that i would not be overly surprised if i was wrong

 

 

Also, it's incredible how errorgant gavilar was. He was meddling big time with forces he didn't understand. He was trying to manipulate them, but all those forces were manipulating him. Good job in conveying all that, brandon

Edited March 31, 2022 by king of nowhere

[+mdross81 he/him]

For those arguing that Ishar might be the Stormfaker, what is the evidence for the view that the Heralds can feel one another’s deaths while on Roshar?

Setting aside the death in the SA5 prologue, we’ve only encountered two others: Taln in the Prelude and Jezrien. The other Heralds seem to have felt Jezrien’s death, but I’ve always assumed that’s because he was permakilled and fully severed from the Oathpact.

But things Kalak mentions in the Prelude suggest that they would not feel a return-to-Braize death:

Quote

As always, the ten of them had decided upon it before the battle. The survivors would make their way here. Oddly, only one of the others was waiting for him. Jezrien. Had the other eight all died? It was possible. The battle had been so furious this time, one of the worst. The enemy was growing increasingly tenacious.

But no. Kalak frowned as he stepped up to the base of the spire. Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished.

Now, it’s possible that Kalak just didn’t feel Taln’s death because he was distracted by the furious fighting. But the fact that he had to even wonder whether the other eight all died suggests that they can’t feel one another’s deaths.

The only other mention of sensing one another that comes to mind is Nale in RoW 77:

Quote

“Impossible,” Nale repeated. “Ishar said only a Connection between the worlds could cause a bridge to open. And Taln has not given in. I would know if he had.…”

But the way Nale trails off there makes it seem like he’s not certain that he would know. And at any rate, knowing that a Herald has broken on Braize is not the same as knowing that they’ve died on Roshar.

Just wondering if I am missing some other indicator that they can feel one another’s deaths.

[Nathrangking he/him]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Taravangian said it to himself, and it was in the Diagram.

"She handed him a small bundle of his favorite jams, all the way from Shinovar. Those were increasingly rare, now that the trade into the strange country had cut off. The Diagram indicated it was likely one or more of the Unmade had set up there." -RoW page 292

Hmmm... the diagram. In a way sort of paints me into a corner. He would not lie to himself. So you are right unless the diagram was wrong in that instance then that is problematic.

By the way this is an awesome WoB!!!

Questioner

Does Gavilar and Amaram know that Nale and Kalak are the Heralds and that all the other Heralds also...

Brandon Sanderson

That's a spoiler. Can you talk around it?

Questioner

Yeah. So did they know that the people being met, who were they and also if they knew, why'd they still continue on the missions?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that information is not being shared clearly and succinctly between different groups that are interacting in the prologues of the Stormlight books. How about that.  But the cat obviously got out of that particular bag that you're asking about and the ramifications of it are in the first prologue. You'll find out. When this book comes out, your question will get answered pretty clearly so just know that you'll get your answer in about a year.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

[+mdross81 he/him]

On the topic of whether or not this being in the SA5 prologue is the same Stormfather we've come to know through Dalinar, I just wanted to note here that the "shimmer" thing has actually happened before:

• He searched the sky and discovered a ripple in the air, like heat rising from distant stone. A shimmer the size of a building. (OB 1)
• Dalinar backed up, letting Fen rejoin the people and experience the end of the vision. As he folded his arms to watch, he noted a shimmering in the air beside him. (OB 34)
• Dalinar turned to the side, to where he glimpsed the air shimmering. The Stormfather. (OB 38)

But notably, all three times that I'm aware of it happening were inside a vision, not in the waking world.

[Friendshipspren he/him]

Also can i point out that Gavilar said " I am the law " to nale who is 

A). The patron Herald of the Skybreakers.

B). A Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal

C). The only Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal in centuries. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

4 minutes ago, Friendshipspren said:

Also can i point out that Gavilar said " I am the law " to nale who is 

A). The patron Herald of the Skybreakers.

B). A Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal

C). The only Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal in centuries. 

Though as we know the "law " was set up by Nale. Nale knew what was coming. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

5 minutes ago, Friendshipspren said:

Also can i point out that Gavilar said " I am the law " to nale who is 

A). The patron Herald of the Skybreakers.

B). A Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal

C). The only Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal in centuries. 

Lol but gav was saying the truth there. The Alethi kings will is the law

[ElMonoEstupendo]

2 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Lol but gav was saying the truth there. The Alethi kings will is the law

Ironically, it was his will (via the treaty) that allowed Nale to legally arrange his death.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Necessary Eagle said:

If Gavilar's Stormfather is Tanavast, I'm heavily on the "he didn't lie, Gav just made assumptions" train. And even then, I have a hard time picturing late-stage Tanavast as being manipulative enough to lie by omission for so long.

(*puts on aluminum hat* the entity that Gavilar is talking to is the Stormfather, Ishar, Tanavast, and -why not?- Sja-Anat holding a conference call. You heard it here first, folks)

Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow is in there with the Stormfather and is probably the shimmering man Gavilar is talking to. I think the Stormfather is still somewhat distinct from Tanavast. Stormfather is too surprised by things that Tanavast would know. Then again maybe a CS "stapled" to a Spren instead of a physical realm entity meant a lot of Tanavast was lost. 

I think Tanavast is the one that says "Unite Them" to Dalinar on occasion and the Stormfather is always like "I didn't say anything". I think that because Tanavast is always saying "Unite Them" in the visions. The whole Unity thing is his idea originally. He doesn't take as active a role because he swore off the Kholin's (while the Stormfather didn't). That's why we never see the shimmering man talk to Dalinar. 

[KaladinWorldsinger]

AGHHH I AM SO ANGRY!! If I had known that Brandon would drop the prologue on us, i would have written down a lot of my theories before, since some of my predictions seems like they are true.

I had a theory that braize was surrounded by a body of water, or a moat like thing. Why?

When taln appears in kholinar, he is soaking wet, like he swam a great distance.

There was something Nale was guarding, as we heard from him in venli's flashback. He was tricked into thinking that he had not been vigilant enough and ulim escaped under his watch.

Then he says that ishar told him a connection would create a bridge. My theory was that this is an actual bridge.

The everstorm is called the barrier storm. Where have we seen something like that? On aimia. Which was an island in sea

Quote

He had found a way to ferry Voidspren through Shadesmar to this world

With just one word, i think my theory has been confirmed? Brandon may have tipped his hand on that one. I checked Google to see if ferry could colloquially mean any transport, but no it definitely means boat transport in particular.

I should have posted this before. Sighhhhh

[BinarySecond]

4 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

With just one word, i think my theory has been confirmed? Brandon may have tipped his hand on that one. I checked Google to see if ferry could colloquially mean any transport, but no it definitely means boat transport in particular.

 

As a native English speaker, ferry can be used colloquially to mean transport one thing from one place to another, and not necessary by water vessel.

[NameIess]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

What makes you say that?

Moash had a strong enough connection to Kaladin for Odium to use his connection to Moash to give Kal visions. 

(SP #4)

Spoiler

In secret project #4, Sigzil's knight forges enough of a connection to Hoid to do the VR thing.

It seems like the connection needed to do VR calls is fairly easy to get, even possible to get naturally. Straight up taking a bond from a Knight Radiant, particularly a Bondsmith, is obviously far more difficult.

And while it is true that Ishar needed to touch the Windrunners to connect them to the ground, he had to forge an entirely new connection for that, and he didn't have any prior connection to them. It stands to reason that simply enhancing a connection would be much easier.

[Honorless he/him]

Could the StormFaker be literally Evil Stormfather... the Everstormfather

[teknopathetic he/him]

If Chana is the dead herald, I think we should talk about what the Bright Light Shallan and her father see was. What did Lin put into the safe? Why did he act so quickly to lock the item up?

When I first put the Chana theory forward, my main point was that the Bright Light in the safe did not make any sense and that I did not believe that Shallan just hallucinated the whole event. That was the key element that snapped the theory into my mind. When we learned about Shallan's first spren and her trip to the garden, I was then 100% sure something magical was indeed put into the Davar safe (and not just a regular shardblade). Shallan knew Testement was in the garden, so her belief that the blade was also in the safe just didnt make sense. Something was wrong with that narrative, and to me her idea of a "soul" in the safe made the best sense. I got a lot of "it is just the blade" on my original Chana post, but I would like to stress that this bright light was the key component to me making this theory. 

Something was put into that safe that could not be a shardblade. It was something that glowed somewhat like a dawnshard or the aural-light Dalinar seen when listening to Jasnah resite the Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral. What was that "soul" Shallan remembers being placed into the safe? If Shallan infact killed a herald, then the light is almost certainly something real. 

1) Is it possible Lin knew Chana was a herald and somehow locked her Soul into an alluminum safe? Do we ever hear when the safe was opened? I wonder if Chana was locked in there for a time and then was released at some point (maybe when the Davars fled the estate or some earlier time I am forgetting?). It is also possible the soul slowly leaked out just like with Jezrian. I do prefer the idea that the safe had been prepared for a purpsose though. Lin seemed to act with quick reflexes to lock the item away in the safe. 

2) Another idea is that Ba Ado Mishram was hidden inside Chana. ThIs would mean that Chana had an unmade gemstone inside of her, and that the dark influence inside the Davar estate was that influence leaking out into the household. No one would ever think to look inside a herald for the gem, so that is the best place to hide it. Lin would have known this, and he held on as long as possible as the influence poisoned him. I think Wit provides some evidence for this. Wit knows there is a Dark Force influencing Shallan. Maybe Wit is one of the people who knew where Ba Ado Mishrim was hidden and was therefor able to provide support to Shallan to fight back that influence.

3) It could be the Chana's herald blade as well, if it was actually a blade. Maybe the Herlad blade appeared and Lin stuffed it away in the safe so no one would find it. 

Those are the three ideas I have  had for what is in the safe. It could be something else, but I am now 120% convinced the glowing light placed in the safe is something important. 
 

Edited March 31, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

21 hours ago, Infinity Sliver said:

Is there going to be a written version released? does anyone know?

It was sent out late on the newsletter and is also now on his site.

21 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

I'm looking forward to spending some time tonight going through it again in detail. A few thoughts and impressions (aside from the Chana Davar bit):

• I'm not sure if this Stormfather was really the Stormfather. Obviously, Gavilar's visions and the way the prologue Stormfather talks about Dalinar are points in favor of it being the true Stormfather. On the other hand, there are some notable differences with how he's manifesting: as an individual, and the distinctly Shard-like infinity sensation I seem to recall at the end. (That's one of the lines I want to get the exact wording.) I don't see it being Odium or another Herald manipulating Gavilar; I think, if this isn't the Stormfather, it's something very close to the Stormfather. A remnant of Honor, somehow; there's another line about "choosing to" vs "being commanded to" that make me think it's Tanavast pretending to be the Stormfather. But if it is the real Stormfather, his mission of choosing a new Herald (and then lying about stuff) and his active lying to Gavilar also throw a lot of his later interactions with Dalinar into question.
• Where did Gavilar get the anti-Voidlight? Also, what was the information that Gavilar tricked out of Thaidakar? I'm thinking they're one and the same, that Kelsier gave Gavilar the secret to creating anti-Voidlight.
• The Everstorm is still a bit of a mystery. I've gotta refresh myself a little bit on it; the storm was already in Shadesmar, I believe, back here when the Alethi first met the Parshendi, and it didn't get pulled into the Physical Realm into Words of Radiance. It allows transportation between Braize and Roshar, even from where it is in Shadesmar. But where did it come from in the first place?
• I had something else, but now I can't think of it, so I'll edit it in here after the transcription gets done and I can do some digging. But it was a good one, I promise. EDIT: I got it. It was Ba-Ado-Mishram as a "puzzle piece that doesn't fit," which is exactly how I've felt since RoW. Is Thaidakar interested in her, or was Kalak rambling about Odium or the Stormfather or someone when it came to "someone who could challenge him" or whatever that line was? (Ooooh, this makes me think of Stormfather as a secret villain again, like the first bullet point.)

EDIT2: Here are some longer thoughts on my first and last bullet points, with the actual quotes.

 

We know the storm father is not perfect, and by that point Tanavast was dead or basically dead and his definition of honor was holding to promises and nothing else, contrary to the idea of honor I think most of us hold.

Potentially by the time the stormfather appears to Dalinar, he is freed from Dying/dead Tanavast's influence.

[+ShardlessVessel]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

I think Tanavast is the one that says "Unite Them" to Dalinar on occasion and the Stormfather is always like "I didn't say anything". I think that because Tanavast is always saying "Unite Them" in the visions. The whole Unity thing is his idea originally. He doesn't take as active a role because he swore off the Kholin's (while the Stormfather didn't). That's why we never see the shimmering man talk to Dalinar.

I am firmly on the "Dalinar is the 'Bind' Dawnshard" field until it's disproven by the text.

[R.Ag]

There is a point worth to mention. “Stormfather” gave up working with Gavilar after Gavilar said if he became Herald he will just give in and make the war continued. This action implies whoever he is, “Stormfather” is not willing to see Desolation happen, or at least doesn’t want the war to be continued. I don’t know if Ishar would care about this, but this is surely not something Odium’s forces will concern.

[Frustration]

50 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Moash had a strong enough connection to Kaladin for Odium to use his connection to Moash to give Kal visions. 

(SP #4)

  Reveal hidden contents

In secret project #4, Sigzil's knight forges enough of a connection to Hoid to do the VR thing.

It seems like the connection needed to do VR calls is fairly easy to get, even possible to get naturally. Straight up taking a bond from a Knight Radiant, particularly a Bondsmith, is obviously far more difficult.

And while it is true that Ishar needed to touch the Windrunners to connect them to the ground, he had to forge an entirely new connection for that, and he didn't have any prior connection to them. It stands to reason that simply enhancing a connection would be much easier.

Nothing Ishar does indicates that different Connections are more or less difficult to manipulate than any other.

And Gavilar was not a Bondsmith so no bond would exist to him.

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Nothing Ishar does indicates that different Connections are more or less difficult to manipulate than any other.

And Gavilar was not a Bondsmith so no bond would exist to him.

Dalinar was able to easily connect himself to other people in order to do understand their language, even before swearing the third ideal. And Gavilar was on the road to becoming a Bondsmith. He had connection to the Stormfather, and Ishar had connection to the Stormfather.