Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[Honorless]

Gavilar really was seeking immortality, he was seeking to become a Herald. The words of the Oathpact are hidden in the Way of Kings. Kelsier (and there's the Seon Brandon mentioned). My brain feels like its rattling.

Gavilar didn't know he was dealing with the Heralds... huh. Then Anti Void Light, how? "Betrayed Mishram"? Who was she rivaling? Odium? Oh, so it was Kalak's idea to create Anti Voidlight. Oh my, that's... not the Stormfather at all, is it? A Voidspren? The becoming a Herald thing was probably a lie too then, but why? They got Voidlight from the storm at the Nexus, okay, confirmation that leads to Braize then, I guess. Ah Aluminium boxes again. Gavilar is a total megalomaniac and... not as clever as he thought... and very human. Oh, so it was a Death Rattle that set Taravangian on his path? Is Moelach up to something? The "Stormfather" felt... Chanaranach's death? Hmm... is this... Shalash? She was there at the party. Kel running another con? Or.. it is the Stormfather or it's the Stormfather and someone else pretending to be him?

Edited March 31, 2022 by Honorless

[+honorblades]

21 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

"The world ended, and Shallan was to blame.

- Words of Radiance, Chapter 10. 
Mentioned by @honorblades

I'm just happy to be involved with your awesome theory Tekno  for what it's worth I think we got confirmation of this today. 

The Stormfather reporting a Herald dying the same year Shallan killed her mother is ... too much of a coincidence to not be the case, I think. 

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I have to disagree.

1. He can show the visions
2. He has the same goal
3. He has the same speaking patterns and temperment
4. He can tell when a Herald died and recognise Heralds
5. Gavilar was on the path to Bondsmith

Yeah, but he's also very different from what he was in the books. He outright lies to Gavilar, telling him that he will become a herald. And he ends by telling Gavilar that he won't trust the Kholins again, then immediately goes and bonds Dalinar. I mean, there were a couple years in between Gavilar's death and the beginning of Dalinar's visions, but that's still a pretty big change in opinion. Of course, this could all come from first-draft-itis.

[+honorblades]

Just now, Honorless said:

The words of the Oathpact are hidden in the Way of Kings. My brain feels like its rattling.

I am still confused by this part I think. So is it:

- 'The Words' the Stormfather mentioned are the Bondsmith Oaths, or at least ideas that would put you in the right mindset to speak them?

- The literal words of the Oathpact are within the text of The Way of Kings?

[+honorblades]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

And he ends by telling Gavilar that he won't trust the Kholins again, then immediately goes and bonds Dalinar.

I believe Dalinar only begins to bond the Stormfather after his visit to Cultivation, after which he is a very different person. Could be that the Stormfather saw that and changed his mind? 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, HippoPhileus said:

Was he on the path to be a Bondsmith? I didn't get that from this but maybe I missed something. I thought his only goal was to become a Herald, not Bond the Stormfather.

Yes

Spoiler

Ted Herman (paraphrased)

Has Dalinar been on the Bondsmith path for a long time? How about Gavilar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes to both.

Brandon said that Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path for longer than Dalinar has been.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Questioner

The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?

Brandon Sanderson

He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, but he's also very different from what he was in the books. He outright lies to Gavilar, telling him that he will become a herald. And he ends by telling Gavilar that he won't trust the Kholins again, then immediately goes and bonds Dalinar. I mean, there were a couple years in between Gavilar's death and the beginning of Dalinar's visions, but that's still a pretty big change in opinion. Of course, this could all come from first-draft-itis.

Dalinar also saw Cultivation during that time, so she might have done something.

[Gilphon]

So um. Just to recap. Here's a list of everyone Gavilar had a meaningful conversation with that night:

• A spren that claims to be the Stormfather
• Kelsier
• Dalinar
• Kalak
• Nale
• Navani
• Amaran
• Taravangian
• Eshonai
• Sadeas
• Szeth

He had quite the busy night, didn't he? Like we knew that obviously, but Kelsier showing up too was really just the icing on the cake. 

[HippoPhileus]

@Frustration Thank you! I hadn't seen those WoBs.

[Infinity Sliver]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, but he's also very different from what he was in the books. He outright lies to Gavilar, telling him that he will become a herald. And he ends by telling Gavilar that he won't trust the Kholins again, then immediately goes and bonds Dalinar. I mean, there were a couple years in between Gavilar's death and the beginning of Dalinar's visions, but that's still a pretty big change in opinion. Of course, this could all come from first-draft-itis.

It could be why the SF is so begrudging to Dalinar but yea,This was a weird chapter

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

So um. Just to recap. Here's a list of everyone Gavilar had a meaningful conversation with that night:

• A spren that claims to be the Stormfather
• Kelsier
• Dalinar
• Kalak
• Nale
• Navani
• Amaran
• Taravangian
• Eshonai
• Sadeas
• Szeth

He had quite the busy night, didn't he? Like we knew that obviously, but Kelsier showing up too was really just the icing on the cake. 

He also talked with Jasnah in WoR, but that's not here for some reason.

Just now, HippoPhileus said:

@Frustration Thank you! I hadn't seen those WoBs.

No problem.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Dalinar also saw Cultivation during that time, so she might have done something.

I mean, she did do something. But the Stormfather already saw Dalinar's potential before he went to Cultivation. It could have changed his mind, but honestly the Stormfather just seems a lot more meaner than he was to Dalinar.

[teknopathetic]

On 3/30/2022 at 11:31 AM, Frustration said:

I have to disagree.

1. He can show the visions
2. He has the same goal
3. He has the same speaking patterns and temperment
4. He can tell when a Herald died and recognise Heralds
5. Gavilar was on the path to Bondsmith

I really don't think it is the Stormfather. Why would the Stormfather LIE to make Gavilar not believe that there were heralds around him? This does not line-up with what we see with Dalinar at all. The Stormfather with Dalinar also almost never gives information freely, yet this one with Gavilar is just doing info-dump after info-dump. 

Whatever this Spren/person is is encouraging Gavilar to ferry voidspren. Would the Stormfather ever do that? Would the Stormfather say "you will need someone to fight when you take the position I am offering you?" or "You are the one I have chosen?". Would the Stormfather call someone a "tool?"

Gavilar's Stormfather appears mentally deranged. 

The Stormfather we know was begrudgingly giving visions to people, but in this prologue the Spren calls Gavilar the "Chosen One". That is weird. Dalinar's Stormfather seems to barely want to do much of anything and has to be convinced by Dalinar over and over. These personalities do not match. 

This plotline sounds a lot more like what happened to Venli than to what happened with Dalinar IMO

Edited September 27, 2023 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

I mean, she did do something. But the Stormfather already saw Dalinar's potential before he went to Cultivation. It could have changed his mind, but honestly the Stormfather just seems a lot more meaner than he was to Dalinar.

I was meaning a more active roll, like the Stormfather is doing his thing and Cultivation shows up and says something to the affect of "Go bond Dalinar."

And I think that the only time that the Stormfather says anything really mean was when he realises that Gavilar has only been in this for his own power.

2 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I really dont think it is the Stormfather. Why would the Stormfather LIE to make Gavilar not believe the Heralds really were the Heralds? This does not line-up with what we see with Dalinar at all. The Stormfather with Dalinar also almost never gives information feely, yet this one with Gavilar is just doing info-dump after info-dump. 

He clearly has decided to appraoch bonding differently, however unless you want to say that there is another Bondsmith spren capable of giving the visions I think the Stormfather is the only valid candidate.

[teknopathetic]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was meaning a more active roll, like the Stormfather is doing his thing and Cultivation shows up and says something to the affect of "Go bond Dalinar."

And I think that the only time that the Stormfather says anything really mean was when he realises that Gavilar has only been in this for his own power.

He clearly has decided to appraoch bonding differently, however unless you want to say that there is another Bondsmith spren capable of giving the visions I think the Stormfather is the only valid candidate.

If the Visions exist somewhere, it should be possible to connect to them. Or, perhaps something else could create them? Odium can go into the visions, and so can Lift, so we know it isnt impossible.

EDIT:
We also have visions from Noadon that The Stormfather cannot detect, so there are other visions out there possibly.  

Edited March 30, 2022 by teknopathetic

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I was meaning a more active roll, like the Stormfather is doing his thing and Cultivation shows up and says something to the affect of "Go bond Dalinar."

And I think that the only time that the Stormfather says anything really mean was when he realises that Gavilar has only been in this for his own power.

He treats Gavilar as a subordinate, and lies to him repeatedly about a ton of things for seemingly no good reason.

[Nathrangking]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I was meaning a more active roll, like the Stormfather is doing his thing and Cultivation shows up and says something to the affect of "Go bond Dalinar."

And I think that the only time that the Stormfather says anything really mean was when he realises that Gavilar has only been in this for his own power.

He clearly has decided to appraoch bonding differently, however unless you want to say that there is another Bondsmith spren capable of giving the visions I think the Stormfather is the only valid candidate.

Unless there was funny business going on. I have seen people speculate that Ishar was messing with the connection perhaps or something along those lines. This replacing of the oathpact is also odd. How would the stormfather know whether this was even possible. He did not yet know how strong an unchained bondsmith is.

[teknopathetic]

4 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

Unless there was funny business going on. I have seen people speculate that Ishar was messing with the connection perhaps or something along those lines. This replacing of the oathpact is also odd. How would the stormfather know whether this was even possible. He did not yet know how strong an unchained bondsmith is.

Oooh. Ishar is a very good culprit for this. There is no better person for connecting to Honour's visions, and for wanting research into moving things around Shadesmaar, and for looking into how to make new Heralds. That is 3/3

Edited March 30, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

If the Visions exist somewhere, it should be possible to connect to them. Or, perhaps something else could create them? Odium can go into the visions, and so can Lift, so we know it isnt impossible. 

Both are only able to do it when the Stormfather is upholding them. And even Odium doesn't do it often.

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He treats Gavilar as a subordinate, and lies to him repeatedly about a ton of things for seemingly no good reason.

And in many ways Gavilar is his subordinate. And he withholds a lot of information because he thinks it's dangerous.

He did also try to kill Dalinar in WoR.

1 minute ago, Nathrangking said:

Unless there was funny business going on. I have seen people speculate that Ishar was messing with the connection perhaps or something along those lines. This replacing of the oathpact is also odd. How would the stormfather know whether this was even possible. He did not yet know how strong an unchained bondsmith is.

The Oathpact was made by a Bondsmith before Honor's death

[Gilphon]

So I'm thinking that it does kind of need to be either Chana or Vedel that died here- I would presume that what happened here is that whichever Herald died this chapter was sent to Braize for five years, and then broke sometimes around the end of WoK. Jezrien, Nale, Kalak and Shalash were at the palace, and weren't dying. Taln, Ishar and Battar are accounted for during those five years, and Pailiah more or less is.

And there's Vedel, where we just have no information whatsoever on her current whereabouts, and Chana, where all we actually know is that she appears onscreen at some point in the first two books. Which would make it more likely to be Vedel at first glance, but the theory people have been tossing around today about Chana's identity is a plausible one. 

[Nathrangking]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Both are only able to do it when the Stormfather is upholding them. And even Odium doesn't do it often.

And in many ways Gavilar is his subordinate. And he withholds a lot of information because he thinks it's dangerous.

He did also try to kill Dalinar in WoR.

The Oathpact was made by a Bondsmith before Honor's death

Correct. Ishar concocted the idea. He created it. Let me ask again. How would the Stormfather who so far as we have seen is a spren in the sense of most that he simply does not know certain things until Dalinar does, know so crucial a piece of information about the oathpact which was created long before he was fully conscious? If he was truly just holding out on us the that throws out everything we have known in the last 4 books and makes everything far more convoluted than makes sense. I think by occam's razor that it not being the stormfather simply makes more sense.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Correct. Ishar concocted the idea. He created it. Let me ask again. How would the Stormfather who so far as we have seen is a spren in the sense of most that he simply does not know certain things until Dalinar does, know so crucial a piece of information about the oathpact which was created long before he was fully conscious? If he was truly just holding out on us the that throws out everything we have known in the last 4 books and makes everything far more convoluted than makes sense. I think by occam's razor that it not being the stormfather simply makes more sense.

How would a being who isn't the Stormfather be able to create the visions and act as a Bondsmith spren?

[teknopathetic]

10 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Correct. Ishar concocted the idea. He created it. Let me ask again. How would the Stormfather who so far as we have seen is a spren in the sense of most that he simply does not know certain things until Dalinar does, know so crucial a piece of information about the oathpact which was created long before he was fully conscious? If he was truly just holding out on us the that throws out everything we have known in the last 4 books and makes everything far more convoluted than makes sense. I think by occam's razor that it not being the stormfather simply makes more sense.

It also explains why the The Stormfaker screams as a herald dies. Ishar created the Oathpact, so he would likely feel a death quite profoundly. The Stormfaker then promises to never use the Kholin family again, which is another hint at this not being the Real Stormfather. 

My guess is that Ishar gives up on using proxy-kings and decides to be the God-King of Tukar himself after this point. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Experience]

Just now, Frustration said:

How would a being who isn't the Stormfather be able to create the visions and act as a Bondsmith spren?

Maybe the Nightwatcher or Sibling would have the ability?

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

How would a being who isn't the Stormfather be able to create the visions and act as a Bondsmith spren?

The Stormfather could have been giving the visions, unaware of the fact that Gavilar was being fooled by some other force.

[Serack]

@teknopathetic, @Nathrangking, see the WoBs quoted in @Frustration’s post above

 

per WoB the Stormfather was granting visions to Galvinar.  I’m having a hard time squaring this with some of the stuff portrayed as “The Stormfather” saying and doing too, but much of the “lies” did not occur on screen.  I can’t wait until I have a text to comb over to see if maybe Galvinar was making some wrong conclusions about dead Heralds