Master Silver

And he can heal from being cut by a Shard blade, they can't. Super unfair for the non-radiants. We should be asking can he win with one had tied behind his back. What about both hands. What about blindfolded. Any way cheers.

4th ideal Kaladin nto suffering from combat shock/ptsd. Absolutely. In fact, compare the feats that Seth, the "assassin in white", did. Kaladin beat him beat him only just having sworn the third ideal. As long as Kaladin has room I don't think 4 full shard bearers stand a chance. Also remember Kaldin has a living blade, the Syl spear, which is ideal for fighting multiple opponents. And we have no ideal how much more resilient living plate is than dead plate either.

We know when a Shard creates something it sort of ties them down. I wonder if it is more cost effective to just corrupt other magic systems instead of creating things and agents.

Going off of how unmade are made and what has happened to the heralds. We should try to guess what the unmade used to do before they were unmade.

That works for comic books, but in a world filled with man eating tigers, someone must hunt and kill the tigers. Both punishing the guilty and protecting the innocent need to be done to have a functioning society. In fact, it is impossible to truly protect the innocent without punishing the guilty.

It is things like this that makes me think Kaladin is destined to either ascend (although Odium says Dalinar speaks on behalf of Honor) or take Jezrien's place. This would in a sense allow Dalinar and Kaladin to keep their current relationship. Dalinar as the supreme general and Kaladin as his best Soldier. But then again, in RoW we see Dalinar placing his trust in Kaladin, and I can see Kaladin outgrowing so to speak Dalinar's mentorship. Sorta how Vyn outgrew Kelsier's mentorship.

On Roshar, clearly the thing to do is string all four of them up for the Stormfather to judge. The guilty die and the innocent becomes a Radiant ;-)

I just figured the honor blades are splinters of Honor right? And they gave direct access to investiture while he was alive. I can never remember if there is a difference between a sliver and a splinter. Anyway, would you compare it to how many Breaths someone holds? I think we have only seen about 10k breaths being held right? But I am mostly thinking of Mistborn, there has to be an upper limit after which you ascend.

Greetings all, With Stormlight 5 in the works I thought it worth discussing how much of Honor's investiture would be needed to re-forge the Shard. Honor spren are of course made from Honor's investiture. The higher the oath, presumably the more highly invested the Windrunner (I know other orders are of Honor, but Windrunners are the most closely linked to him). Other substantial amounts of Honor's investiture can be found in the Honor blades and the Stormfather. I imagine since the Stormfather merged with Tanavast cognitive shadow, Dalinar is the most highly invested being associated with Honor currently. Nale is a herald and Knight Radiant of the fifth Ideal, but again he is a Skybreaker, so maybe let's not count him as one to pick up the shard. Jezrien is dead. So I would rank them Dalinar>Herald>Kaladin> other Windrunners. Would reforging or combining all the honor blades and bonding it be enough concentrated investiture to cause a person to ascend? If Dalinar reaches the fifth ideal since Tanavast died cause him to ascend. Would 5th ideal Dalinar + all honor blades be enough to cause him to ascend. What do you all think?

So on the topic of the Heralds existing before and not being bonded to spren, that is true. Nevertheless, there could have been a connection. As for why there are only 9 unmade, what if the Sibling was the tenth. That would explain why there are nine, and it would explain his name. The sibling is likely more powerful than the Made, which are now unmade. As for them not resembling the divine attributes, well they would not be a warped version of what they once were. There does not need to be a bond for their to be a connection or association. Yes the Heralds are powered by the blades, but the way the cognitive realm works is that sometimes the ideas of humans take shape. So that there was a spren beast, maybe a lion, that inspired bravery and nobility and often accompanied Talin or Jezrien to the battle field makes sense to me. The heralds cam first. Then after time, there began to be an association between those heralds and certain traits, this association led to something being made in the cognitive realm. Eventually, a connection (not bond) was formed, the Odium unmade them and sent them after the heralds causing the same sort of unmaking in the Heralds (their madness has them become the opposite of their cognitive selves, the brave become cowards, the decisive indecisive, etc.).

I actually don't think that is correct. The heralds were gifted with super human abilities. Almost all people in RL would break after a few hours of torture, especially the type of torture the heralds are going through. Here is an excellent post on the theory of the connection between heralds and the unmade. Also, yes the heralds came before the unmade, but we know the unmade were made, and then unmade. What if the unmade were originally the embodiment of the divine attributes attributed to the heralds. A weapon of Honor and Cultivation that Odium turned against them.

What I find interesting is when Odium (the old Odium) says, "the power will eventually bind you. There has been a lot of talk about who will become Honor, Kaladin or Dalinar or someone else. RoW, as others have stated seems to be setting up Kaladin for the role. But it is weird because Kaladin looks up to Dalinar and Dalinar in a way looks up to Kaladin. Some would argue that the three most honorable people on Roshar are Seth, Kaladin, and Dalinar. Someone has to replace Jezrein. Another needs to take up Honor. And likely other Heralds will become casualties. Does anyone have an idea of how division works. Others have postulated that the their is a connection between the Heralds and the unmade. What if the reason the hearlads are crazy is because Odium corrupted the spren the originally bonded. And that connection to the unmade causes them to become the opposite of their divine attributes, but while Honor was alive and able to fuel them directly it kept the crazy at bay. Perhaps the surge of division (whatever it is) can separate Ishar from his crazy. If that makes sense.

But Dalinar has already started doing this, connecting with people that is. First with Shallan making the map. Then and more importantly with Nail. He can also speak foreign languages via connection. Finally, he connected Kaladin to his brother. So I think he is a lot closer to figuring it out than we think.

How these different magic systems end up interacting is anyone's guess. @Returned good breakdown on the different types of immortality. I was unaware of 17th shard members longevity. I'm also surprised at the attitude 17th Shard members treat Shards. They treat them more like caged lions than deities. That being said there is always a power scaling factor in Cosmere books. We see this especially in Stormlight Archives, although it is in Mistborn and other series. Shard bearers have been completely outclassed by Radiants and Fused at this point. Every time our heroes reach a new level of power, there is a threat that makes it still an uphill struggle. That is why I am thinking, Radiants will need something (especially since their technology is behind other planetary systems. That is what made me think of breaths. They are already on the Rosharan system. Zahel has shown that he can consume stormlight in the place of breaths to stay alive. Does this mean that breaths can be consumed in the place of stormlight? Or could placing a breath into a gemstone allow you to then transport stormlight away from the system. Someone (can't remember who was trying to do this). How would putting breaths into shard plate effect it? But immortality... have to keep our heroes alive and fighting somehow.

How terrifying would it be if his fifth truth was "we can't win."

In terms of time to revive a dead eye. Dalinar just started/actual did form an intentional connection between Kaladin and his brother in the spiritual realm. Perhaps because of his familiarity with Oathbringer he will be able to pull an Ishar and say, I will take this oath upon myself. If the spren is already locked as a blade, would saying just the first oath work or would he need the first 3 oaths of stonewards?

What blade is Dalinar going to use for the duel? He can't use a dead eye.... so... revive Oathbringer like Adolin is doing??

So, I was thinking not so much about the fight between between Kaladin and Zahel, but the problem of time. How do you keep main characters alive for other eras in cosmere events without them becoming Shards? When in Elantris they become Elantrins. The Lord Ruler, combined two different magic systems to sorta achieve it. For others they use Breaths. This form of investiture seems like one of the few that can travel no problem. You either need a Divine breath or (and a better way I think) is to amass 2,000 breaths. Getting that number of breaths would be out of reach for every except kings, queens, and high princes. But with Shallan becoming aware of the Cosmere and Hoid and Jasnah being a couple, this leads to the possibility that a few Radiants would end up with agelessness. The heralds after all are ageless, and we aren't sure how this was achieved. It was achieved due to an oath made to Honor most likely. We don't know what the fifth oath does of course. But if you look at what Breath does and compare it to stormlight it is very similar. "The Fifth Heightening grants Agelessness; an Awakener's resistance to aging and disease reaches its maximum strength. These persons are immune to most toxins (including the effects of alcohol) and most physical ailments (such as headaches, diseases, and organ failure). (Coppermind)" For stormlight, "While held, it will automatically heal wounds, exhaustion and even conditions such as poisoning or drunkenness." Possible character that end up with both. Zahel, Kaladin, Jasnah, Hoid (already is a Radiant and has Breath), Dalinar, Adolin (it would certainly help him out if he held some Breath). Any thoughts on what the results of holding both would be. I feel like these magic systems go together very easily.

If Taravangian wasn't so convinced of his brilliance, I could see Taravangian just being honest with Dalinar. Shows up, say dude, I already killed him. I told you everything I did was for the love of my city. But there is a real threat out in what is called the Cosmere. I need you to release me from the system and care for the Singers while I am away. And with that brutal honesty Taravangian wins. Before Hoid can get there Dalinar releases him.

I do really like this idea. Brandon needs to find some way to get characters to span time gaps. So perhaps 5th ideal grants similar abilities to the 5th heightening. I also think in terms of holding storm light better and better, what if the Knight gains a gem-heart, like every other creature on Roshar? And not only a gem-heart, but a perfect gem-heart. And this is where the perfect gem-hearts come from. Also, in terms of immortality/cognitive shadow, a human who becomes the Law (5th ideal), how would that cognitive shadow be much different than a High spren? Could that be one way spren are created? 5th lvl Radiants die, cognitive shadow merges with a bit of power (stormlight) at a perpendicularity and becomes a spren, but forgets former life.

From listening to the Prologue, I felt like it was fairly obvious that the visions were legit, but the spren interacting with Gavilar was (off somehow) one of Odium's spren I think. An indication that this is a spren of Odium is indicated in the glimpses of the future. And then how he talks about never should have wasted time with your kind sort of makes me thing of Odium spren, who would usually work with Listeners. This couldn't be the same spren that is workign with Venli could it? Playing both sides as it were to get the Return to happen. This being Tanavast's cognitive shadow is very interesting and something I would not have thought of.

Maybe, but I think even if that was the case, the ugliness of the (real) world, lead us to acknowledge that Soldiers are necessary, unless we would all be slaves. I could see it being the opposite, and maybe that is how Moash dies. If I must kill to protect, so be it.

With regard to the theory, I think it is very interesting. The 10 marks being erased, and the five spears. Others have mentioned Kaladin needing to keep healing before taking on another burden. I agree. But what I can see happening is you have a bunch of Honor's power in one place. One of the blades, the Stormfather, the ancient daughter, and Kaladin who may swear the fifth ideal. The religious way in which people have faith in Kaladin leads me to believe he will ascend and then take the Honor blades, reforge them into 5 spears, and give them to the new Heralds. Those Heralds could be current Radiants, but they could also be the best 5 members of Bridge 4 (if Kaladin ascends likely to include Moash). I'm not sure how long after death a Shard can resurrect someone, but Teft could still be hanging out in the cognitive realm (even though when he died he was certainly at peace). So going out on a limb. For the other Heralds, Hoid might help out some of the monarchs by smuggling some Breath for them, that way leadership is not constantly changing. Dalinar, Nevoni, Jasnah Honor=Kaladin (You can divide up the attributes however you'd like). Rock (or Adolin) - Lopen - Moash (replaced Teft) - Sigzil - Skar -

Good point, the Radiants wouldn't be able to bring themselves to do that. This is why you need Amaran and Saedius around to take care of the uglier and inhumane parts of winning a war, but again just talking about strategy and not morality here. Also, I am kidding about wanting Amaran and Saedius back.

On the topic of wiping out the Singers, I think the Singers must repopulate faster than the humans and also not have infighting. The reason for me thinking this is that before each Desolation, the Heralds come back and find humanity worse off than last time the left it. This will be due in part to losing generational knowledge because so many people die in the desolations. But something more has to be going on. This is from Oathbringer, and I pulled it from the wiki, "she elaborates by saying that songs tell of how the losses compounded upon one another, causing humankind to to slide farther each time, until the Heralds left a people with swords and fabrials and returned to find them wielding sticks and stone axes." From this, it seems like mankind loses knowledge in between desolations, so I'm not sure what is going on. But I also wanted to comment on the end of RoW.